![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 33 to 57 of 85. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on September 28, 2006, at 1:51:49
In reply to Re: Am I already addicted to Effexor after 3 month, posted by linkadge on September 27, 2006, at 19:20:02
> >So, what was your experience with Effexor?
>
> Well we can't go there. Lets just say I'm very fortunate that my dad keeps his guns well locked.Ok.
> (again, I don't want to transfer my experience onto others')
Well, perhaps you are. We really can't know. However, the negative perspective with which you approach mainstream antideperessants is obvious. That's ok with me as long as you don't take them away from me. Well, it really isn't ok with me. I really prefer that you don't act in ways that disuade people from trying antidepressants. You can, of course, but that's my preference.
I can't fault you for your sense of responsibility to want to inform people of what you see as dangers associated with certain drugs.
You are an extraordinarily intelligent person with a good memory and an exceptional intellect when it comes to the synthesis of ideas and the process of deductions regarding neuroscience. Your mind can be well-focused, productive, and accurate. Rules of civility don't allow me to make comments that describe the antithesis of that statement, but I do know that with myself, emotions can ruin some pretty good logic.
I see from one of your other posts that you are considering leaving Psycho-Babble. Maybe that's not such a bad idea. I don't mean that I would like to see you go, but perhaps you have reached a point in space where you would find it healthier to be somewhere else. It doesn't have to be a permanent or long-term change. It might only be for a few days to a few weeks to a few months. I am not endorsing your leaving and I am not making any judgments as to what is best for you. I am just offering a possibility.
Oh, well.
It's too bad Effexor is such an effective drug - better than the SSRIs. It is not so easy to dismiss it when there aren't a hell of a lot of alternatives. It is more difficult to discontinue than most of the other antidepressants, but is not alone in possessing the familiar serotonin reuptake inhibitor discontinuation syndrome. People have difficulties with Prozac, Paxil, and Zoloft too. If doctors paid as much attention to the taper schedule as they do to the titration schedule, perhaps fewer people would have to experience withdrawal effects.
You know, I find the bashing of psychiatric drug to be extremely distasteful. They are all we have. It serves very little purpose to berate them and scare us and attempt to take them away from us unless you can come up with a better solution now. Not later. Now. To say that their side effects are not worth their being available is to say that our pain is not worth the risks that we as adults are willing to assume. Cancer drugs involve acute and assured side effects. Who determines that mental illness is not as serious as cancer? I know what the risks are of taking Effexor. I know how difficult it can be to discontinue. I will take it again, if it is all the same to you. Leave my drugs alone!
- Scott
Posted by tizza on September 28, 2006, at 2:00:37
In reply to Re: There is no evil to Effexor., posted by notfred on September 27, 2006, at 21:14:31
There were thousands of signatures there and I think people should know that they might be one of the unlucky contestants in the race for *try my med.*
I think that people need to know all the aspects involved with different meds. I'm not a big fan of them either but effexor, for me, was hideous!!
Racer and Notfred, I can see your point to a certain extent. If you don't try a certain med you won't know if it works for you, right, but I think it's fair and reasonable to also say that effexor nearly ruined me when I came off it and I was way, way worse off before I started it.
If you guys were to eat at a bad restaurant that made you sick, would you tell your freinds to eat there. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be smart but I would shout it from the roof tops to anyone who would listen. Effexor made me so sick when I tapered off it and then went through living hell for weeks that I would tell anyone who is listening to me up here on my pedastal, not to touch it. And just for the record. I do think it's evil and vile and so are the manufactures who have finally been made to place a warning on the box reguarding withdrawal.
Sorry for my rant, I have tried quite a few meds over the years and that is the hands down winner for making my life hell.
I have never signed a petition for any other med and some of those haven't been nice either, but they didn't make me show my voice like this drug did.
Link don't go mate, I hear you brother, loud and clear.
Posted by willyee on September 28, 2006, at 6:47:51
In reply to There is no evil to Effexor. » linkadge, posted by Racer on September 27, 2006, at 18:30:44
> > What good is it if people are only given some inaccurate and rosey picture of a drug's performance and lack of side effects?
> >
> > The internet is full of controversy over effexor.
> > Is this just all in people's heads? Do hundreds of thousands of people just make up nonsence?
> >
> > Of course people can gain benifit from effexor, but I just thing its necessary to know there can be an evil side to it.
> >
> >
>
> By definition, there is no evil side to any of these drugs. "Evil" is a moral construct, and morality applies to humans only.
>
> As for Effexor, it's like all the other drugs discussed on this board and others like it -- it's useful for some, less so for others. It can be uncomfortable to wean off for some people, less so for others. (And don't tell me that I don't understand: I weaned off 225mg after three years.)
>
> Link, I'm sorry you don't feel that any of these medications have helped you. I know you'd put that more strongly, but I think that negativity has a lot to do with your depression AND with the cognitive distortions that feed that depression. There are no drugs that change pessimistic thoughts to optimistic thoughts, and there are no perfect drugs -- again, by definition, the only perfect drug would be entirely inert, since otherwise it's gonna come with side effects. What is out there is what's out there, and sad as it is that's what we have to choose from. You've chosen to reject all of the drugs available, which is your choice. For a lot of people, though, who have not made that choice, reading unrelievably negative assessments of these drugs -- especially when it includes hyperbole about the permanent damage they can do -- really isn't all that helpful. Arguing about the definition of addiction isn't all that helpful, either.
>
> I'm impressed by your knowledge of these drugs, Linkadge. Lately, though, I find I read your posts much less frequently because I feel so saddened and angry at the attitude your posts seem to display.
>
> Probably I shouldn't have read anything in this thread, either. I did.
>
> I have a question for you, Link: are you working? Do you support yourself? I ask because that sort of thing can make a huge difference in the decision about whether or not to take these drugs. I know you're considerably younger than I am, and perhaps that perspective is why I have to take a broader, more balanced view of these drugs.I definatly noticed this as well,and like you i think highle of what link knows,but as of late,his response towards meds almost seem predictable and discouraging,at least i have felt,and although i have no argument aganist a anti drug view,i do see it becomming more and more appearent in his posts and only think its a problem because well this is a medication board.
Posted by willyee on September 28, 2006, at 6:57:14
In reply to Re: There is no evil to Effexor., posted by linkadge on September 27, 2006, at 19:49:18
> >By definition, there is no evil side to any of >these drugs. "Evil" is a moral construct, and >morality applies to humans only.
>
> So, satan is not evil ?
>
>
>
>
> >Link, I'm sorry you don't feel that any of these >medications have helped you. I know you'd put >that more strongly, but I think that negativity >has a lot to do with your depression AND with >the cognitive distortions that feed that >depression.
>
> Thats one possability. The other is that I am bitter for what I would consider a good reason.
>
> >There are no drugs that change pessimistic >thoughts to optimistic thoughts, and there are >no perfect drugs
>
> I would tend to disagree. How could any antidepressant work if it did not have the ability to change pessimistic thoughts to optimistic thoughts ?
>
> >You've chosen to reject all of the drugs >available, which is your choice.
>
> Well I wouldn't put it that way. I'd say that they rejected me.
>
> >For a lot of people, though, who have not made >that choice, reading unrelievably negative >assessments of these drugs -- especially when it >includes hyperbole about the permanent damage >they can do -- really isn't all that helpful.
>
> Like I said, I am only describing what hundreds of thousands of other people worldwide have attested to, that effexor can be extrordinarily difficult to quit. If I am wrong, then so are hundreds of thousands of other people.
>
> >Arguing about the definition of addiction isn't >all that helpful, either.
>
> I think it is, because its the first word that comes to a lot of people's mind when considering the phenomnia. It is the medical comunity that has tried to reframe defintions in recent years in the advent of the unanticipated clinical burdon of effexor addiction.
>
> >I'm impressed by your knowledge of these drugs, >Linkadge. Lately, though, I find I read your >posts much less frequently because I feel so >saddened and angry at the attitude your posts >seem to display.
>
> I never asked anyone else to agree with me. Don't worry though, I will get banned soon enough. If you want to know what has made me bitter, it is the fact that my brain has a very difficult time processing the concept of unbitter in the absence of an ultrabiological sea of serotonin. I was never this chronically bitter before meds. Ever.
>
> So, I think my attitude compliments my message.
>
> >I have a question for you, Link: are you >working? Do you support yourself? I ask because >that sort of thing can make a huge difference in >the decision about whether or not to take these >drugs.
>
> I currently work to pay for an education.
>
>
> >I know you're considerably younger than I am, >and perhaps that perspective is why I have to >take a broader, more balanced view of these >drugs.
>
> Remember Jaroen ? He was the guy who suffered seemingly permantant movement problms related to Geodon. I say to him, keep telling your message. Does anyone say to him, "shut up, you're going to jinx it for the people who might need meds". Of course not. He was clearly messed up by the Geodon, and possably the only way that he can bring some resolution to his situation is by coming on here and warning about the dangers of the drug.
>I dont think anyone is aganist a specific side effect of a drug,however the dangers of the drugs as a whole is a much more wode debate,and im not even saying i dont agree with you,just id use my experiances there,i believe in many many negative things about ssris,however i stick to posting about maois and such,as i realise this is a group where medication use is discussed,infromation passed,a debate on whether the drugs are harmful,how the industry works,etc,would require and entire group on its own.
I know whether i post or not,to have a place to read that speaks about meds with simple answers to questions,i guess thats why i made such a stink recently about to much social detection seeping in,as i simply want to come here and find answers to questions,not personal views or a community,i know there is a social part of this site for that,as well as places to debate or find out about the pros and cons of whtehr these drugs should even exsist,but again i just like answers sometimes.
> If we tell everybody who has had bad experiences on these drugs to shut up, and not share their experiences, then where are we going? I wouldn't want anyone else to go thought what Jaroen did.
>
> Thats why, each and every signature, on one those petitions which warn about the dangers of effexor is important, becuase behind each signature, there is a face.
>
>
> Linkadge
Posted by willyee on September 28, 2006, at 7:06:27
In reply to Re: There is no evil to Effexor., posted by willyee on September 28, 2006, at 6:57:14
Just my two cents simply because i feel a certain way about noticable increments in links posts towards the negative,
It does mean i agree with any postings regarding effexor being a safe drug,in fact i believe it is a very very harmful one,however because it was my first drug,and i dwell on the fact it could have brought me to my state now,i know i would have very strong personal comments so i avoid all of the threads as i cant go back in time,and debating drugs is not what i come here for.
P.S im sure no one cares of my stated view on effexor,just wanted to make sure it did not get confused in my post.
Wow im leaving this thread lol sorry for even posting.
Posted by willyee on September 28, 2006, at 7:07:15
In reply to Re: There is no evil to Effexor., posted by linkadge on September 27, 2006, at 20:01:06
> Don't worry, its my last post for a long time.
>
> I understand now how this board works now. It is a page for mutual support, and I can no longer do that.
>
> My mother is almost dead. So much for the first rule of psychiarty.
>
>
> I wish you better luck.
>
> See you, folks.
>
>
>
> Linkadge
I am sorry to hear that link.
Posted by notfred on September 28, 2006, at 16:58:48
In reply to Re: I signed the BAN EFFEXOR petition, posted by tizza on September 28, 2006, at 2:00:37
> If you guys were to eat at a bad restaurant that made you sick, would you tell your freinds to eat there.In this case everyone who ate there would most likely get sick. Millions of people have taken Effexor without problems. I was on it from 1995 till 2004 and did well. A few "shocks" if I stopped, this resolved in a few days and did not happen at all if i took ativan.
This board is almost totally representative of people who do not do well on meds. This board does not in any way represent the general population, in terms of MI meds.
It seems to me if one wants to learn sucessful skills the place to learn them is not amoung those who have been unsuccessful with these skills.
Posted by tizza on September 29, 2006, at 4:38:31
In reply to Re: I signed the BAN EFFEXOR petition, posted by notfred on September 28, 2006, at 16:58:48
Notfred you were one of the lucky ones, IMHO!!> *If you guys were to eat at a bad restaurant that made you sick, would you tell your freinds to eat there.*
That is my point exactly, most of my friends who have eaten effexor have become very ill indeed while stopping it.
*In this case everyone who ate there would most likely get sick. Millions of people have taken Effexor without problems. I was on it from 1995 till 2004 and did well. A few "shocks" if I stopped, this resolved in a few days and did not happen at all if i took ativan.*
Notfred you are so lucky, and that is my point exactly. I actually envy your experience. For me to say *a few shocks* is just not fair. I felt like I had an electric socket hardwired into my head that was set at 30 second
intervals that sent me reeling for weeks on end.I'm only one of the thousands upon thousands who have reported this hell, I'm glad you got off with minor discomfort, but I didn't, so please let everyone explain their personal stories.
I'm not trying to be negative but this particular drug really, really messed me up and I feel that I need to express it so people get a balanced perspective of how this drug effects different people, your was good, mine was beyond horrid.
I wish you well, but I had to put my point across, please don't be angry with me, I mean no disrespect to you but this is what happened to me.
Posted by SLS on September 29, 2006, at 6:04:04
In reply to Re: I signed the BAN EFFEXOR petition » notfred, posted by tizza on September 29, 2006, at 4:38:31
> Notfred you were one of the lucky ones, IMHO!!
> Notfred you are so lucky,> I'm only one of the thousands upon thousands who have reported this hell,
> I'm glad you got off with minor discomfort, but I didn't, so please let everyone explain their personal stories.
I would like to hear yours.
How did you go about discontinuing Effexor?
Did you try to discontinue Effexor abruptly and go "cold turkey" at any point? What kind of taper did you use? Over how many days or weeks? Did you skip days between doses?
The last lowest dosages are the most difficult to reduce and discontinue. How did you deal with them?
How long did the withdrawal symptoms last after you discontinued Effexor?
It is frustrating to hear these stories on the Withdrawal board because it is always after the fact that people arrive there. It is the minority of people who come there asking how to go about discontinuing medication before they start. Most of them have already gone off "cold turkey".
> I'm not trying to be negative but this particular drug really, really messed me up
How so? What permanent changes has it produced?
There is a big problem here that is not being addressed properly, and it is not the responsibility of the patient to address it. Effexor is not the only drug that produces this SRI discontinuation syndrome. Similar withdrawal symptoms occur when discontinuing all of the SSRIs and Cymbalta. Effexor, Paxil, and Cymbalta have emerged as being particularly problematic. This is probably because they have additional activity at the NE uptake pumps. The drug companies and doctors have failed in their responsibilities to acknowledge this phenomenon and come up with a solution for how to discontinue the medication in a way that minimizes withdrawal effects. For now, doctors are failing to instruct patients explicitly how to taper medication.
- Scott
Posted by notfred on September 29, 2006, at 7:59:59
In reply to Re: I signed the BAN EFFEXOR petition » notfred, posted by tizza on September 29, 2006, at 4:38:31
>
> Notfred you were one of the lucky ones, IMHOI have worked very hard at this, I do not think luck is part of this.
Telling your story is fine. Demonizing Effexor, I feel, goes too far.
Posted by notfred on September 29, 2006, at 8:06:57
In reply to Re: I signed the BAN EFFEXOR petition » tizza, posted by SLS on September 29, 2006, at 6:04:04
doctors have failed in their responsibilities to acknowledge this phenomenon and come up with a solution for how to discontinue the medication in a way that minimizes withdrawal effects. For now, doctors are failing to instruct patients explicitly how to taper medication.
> out the prozacI agree some docs are clueless about this. But generalizing all docs is not fair. My present doc knows about the prozac method. Previous doc had me taper to get off Efexor, and use ativin during the taper.
Posted by Jost on September 29, 2006, at 9:06:35
In reply to Re: I signed the BAN EFFEXOR petition, posted by notfred on September 29, 2006, at 8:06:57
Many signers of the petition were in the midst of withdrawal. That's not the time to make ultimate judgments of one's overall experience of a drug, since it's the moment when it's at its worst,
Having to go off an AD is an really demoralizing experience, even if the taper works and you have to face anxieties about reentering the bad old ways.
If you don't taper, or don't get good advice, or aren't appropriately treated for discontinuation symptoms, that's going to make it much worse.
Another concern is that once having made that statement, the idea becomes more strongly labeled in the minds of sufferers, as well as readers.
Does this emphasis represent the most realistic sense of how good/bad the drug is, and what it's cost/benefit ratio is?
Not all signers were in that position, but a significant number of them.
Also the number of signers as of yesterday, was approximately 11,000.
A lot of people but not hundreds of thousands.
Jost
Posted by SLS on September 29, 2006, at 9:41:20
In reply to Re: Effexor petition-- validity?, posted by Jost on September 29, 2006, at 9:06:35
> Also the number of signers as of yesterday, was approximately 11,000.
>
> A lot of people but not hundreds of thousands.Thanks for providing the actual number.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on September 29, 2006, at 9:52:46
In reply to Re: I signed the BAN EFFEXOR petition, posted by notfred on September 29, 2006, at 8:06:57
> > doctors have failed in their responsibilities to acknowledge this phenomenon and come up with a solution for how to discontinue the medication in a way that minimizes withdrawal effects. For now, doctors are failing to instruct patients explicitly how to taper medication.
> I agree some docs are clueless about this. But generalizing all docs is not fair. My present doc knows about the prozac method. Previous doc had me taper to get off Efexor, and use ativin during the taper.That was smart. I think there might be some kindling thing going on there with this withdrawal syndrome. A benzodiazepine or anticonvulsant might help prevent that. Did you experience any brain zaps?
You are right about the generalizing. However, sometimes it is necessary for effective writing. I still think the problem is pervasive enough so as to require more articles to be written in medical journals.
- Scott
Posted by frankie2120 on September 29, 2006, at 9:57:00
In reply to Re: Effexor petition-- validity? » Jost, posted by SLS on September 29, 2006, at 9:41:20
I like Effexor XR... It's working nicely for me.....
Posted by Phillipa on September 29, 2006, at 12:14:24
In reply to Re: I signed the BAN EFFEXOR petition, posted by tizza on September 28, 2006, at 2:00:37
Is this the same petition from two years ago? Love Phillipa ps my doc doesn't use it never asked why
Posted by Racer on September 29, 2006, at 14:24:31
In reply to Re: I signed the BAN EFFEXOR petition » notfred, posted by tizza on September 29, 2006, at 4:38:31
>
>
> That is my point exactly, most of my friends who have eaten effexor have become very ill indeed while stopping it.OK, granted, Effexor isn't very friendly when you stop it.
Did it work while you took it? Frankly, that's much more of an issue for me, when considering a drug. Don't you think?
>
>
> I'm only one of the thousands upon thousands who have reported this hell, I'm glad you got off with minor discomfort, but I didn't, so please let everyone explain their personal stories.
>
>OK, my personal story about Effexor is that it didn't work all that well for me, stopped working pretty much entirely within about two years, and withdrawal was hell.
It also saved my life.
My view on the drug? I wish it had worked better for me, I'm grateful that it worked as well as it did -- it wasn't great, but it was good enough for me to be functional on it, which probably saved my life -- and I had a hell of a hard time stopping it. It's a good drug, in this imperfect world. It certainly worked better than some of the other drugs I've been on, had fewer side effects for the most part, and the withdrawal, while uncomfortable, wasn't impossible. (Please don't try to tell me it must not have been as bad for me as it is for others. There's no heirarchy of suffering, and this isn't a contest.) And no drug is evil, which is a point I won't belabor.
Withdrawal is manageable -- but more importantly, it doesn't last forever. It may feel as though it does, but it really doesn't.
Let's allow the drug to be helpful to those whom it helps, and just regret that we weren't part of that number.
Posted by SLS on September 29, 2006, at 14:43:04
In reply to Sorry... » tizza, posted by Racer on September 29, 2006, at 14:24:31
> and withdrawal was hell.
How do you account for that?
- Scott
Posted by Racer on September 29, 2006, at 17:14:37
In reply to Re: Sorry... » Racer, posted by SLS on September 29, 2006, at 14:43:04
> > and withdrawal was hell.
>
> How do you account for that?
>
>
> - ScottI guess I don't know what you're asking? How do I account for withdrawal being hellish?
Ah, you know what I didn't mention in all that? The most hellish parts of withdrawal wasn't so much the final taper -- that wasn't a lot of fun, but certainly wasn't enough for me to demonize a drug that allowed me to function when I wouldn't have been able to otherwise. And even then, if I hadn't refused my then-pdoc's offer of Prozac to help with the taper, I probably wouldn't have experienced even that much trouble.
What was really hellish was a couple of periods when I ran out and had to go cold turkey for a few days. (Once because I couldn't afford the drugs, but two or three times because my then-pdoc hadn't responded to the pharmacy's calls for refills. If I knew then what I know now, I would have gone in there and stood at the counter begging for just a couple of capsules to tide me over...) Those cold turkey periods were pretty bad. I didn't even realize it was withdrawal the first few times, which made it worse.
Guess this is a case where you just can't say that ignorance is bliss, huh? *g*
Anyway, I'll stick with what I said to begin with: I think Effexor is a good drug, and that a smart taper schedule can minimize the discomfort of withdrawal. I certainly wouldn't discourage anyonne from trying it, because if it works, it works...
Posted by SLS on September 29, 2006, at 17:24:57
In reply to Re: Sorry... » SLS, posted by Racer on September 29, 2006, at 17:14:37
If you had to do it again, how would you discontinue Effexor?
- Scott
Posted by Declan on September 29, 2006, at 17:28:10
In reply to Re: I signed the BAN EFFEXOR petition » notfred, posted by tizza on September 29, 2006, at 4:38:31
IMO the response rate to Effexor is unknown long term. It's all preconceptions and ideology. The idea that this board is entirely unrepresentative of the AD taking population is simply an assertion that is interesting.
Posted by SLS on September 29, 2006, at 18:17:20
In reply to Re: I signed the BAN EFFEXOR petition, posted by Declan on September 29, 2006, at 17:28:10
> IMO the response rate to Effexor is unknown long term.
How long is that? Which drugs do we know this for?
> It's all preconceptions and ideology.
I don't understand what you mean here.
> The idea that this board is entirely unrepresentative of the AD taking population is simply an assertion that is interesting.
I guess this is nothing more than a logical deduction. A guess. What is interesting, though, is that the people who respond to medication while posting here seem to fly away. That leaves just us. An observation, perhaps? I'm pretty sure. I'll keep asserting.
- Scott
Posted by notfred on September 29, 2006, at 19:38:21
In reply to Re: I signed the BAN EFFEXOR petition » notfred, posted by SLS on September 29, 2006, at 9:52:46
Did you experience any brain zaps?
>At one point in the ~10 years I took effexor
I was under a HMO that did not carry Effexor on their approved list. I had to get approved every 3 months and was sometimes forced to stop Effexor w/o a taper. If I did not take Ativan I would get the zaps for a 1-2 days. Then it was over. I did not find the zaps a big deal as I already have a huge startle response and a very twitchy NS. To me the zaps seemed more of the same, though clearly caused by stopping Effexor.I do not understand how anyone would expect to stop a very powerful med at once and be free of problems. It is simply reckless. It is a **huge** shock to the CNS. How does kicking the legs out from under something help it to get better ?
Posted by SLS on September 29, 2006, at 19:50:13
In reply to Re: I signed the BAN EFFEXOR petition, posted by notfred on September 29, 2006, at 19:38:21
> > Did you experience any brain zaps?
> If I did not take Ativan I would get the zaps for a 1-2 days.
That is a salient observation.
> At one point in the ~10 years I took effexor...
For how many of those 10 years did you find it effective?
How are you doing now?
What are you taking?
(Personal questions)
- Scott
Posted by notfred on September 29, 2006, at 19:53:22
In reply to Re: I signed the BAN EFFEXOR petition, posted by Declan on September 29, 2006, at 17:28:10
The idea that this board is entirely unrepresentative of the AD taking population is simply an assertion that is interesting.
And logical. To draw any conclusions about how a med effects the general population you need a randomized sample. Voluntary and random do not go together very well. This board draws people who do not do well on meds. It also has a history of, for some reason, pushing away many very knowlagable people. Lar and Cam were pushed away.
People are motivated to seek out info when things do not go well. Why should someone who does well on meds come to a place that is very negative
about meds ? Some other lists I am on have a nice mix of those doing well and those not doing so well.
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