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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by pulse on June 6, 2006, at 16:41:45
In reply to Re: Endogenous (Chemistry) vs. Exogenous (Life Events) » Rick, posted by Donna Louise on June 6, 2006, at 9:12:54
no, far as anything i've ever read or experienced, unipolar refers to chemical/ endogenous depression.
exogenous simply means depression coming from the outside, and is also know as reactive depression.
'they' say that both forms can be remitted by taking ADs, but also, for the best outcomes ADs + therapy, usually of the talk variety - one on one.
way back when i did enjoy kramers book 'listening to prozac.'
not at all sure that i would nowadays...pulse
Posted by elanor roosevelt on June 6, 2006, at 22:35:26
In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by elanor roosevelt on June 2, 2006, at 8:40:26
what is the story with coffee and colas
how do they react with the parnate?
i am starting tomorrow after a wekk of feeling okay off meds
high energy but volaltile
thought for once i wouldn't wait to crash and burn
my big concern is the anxiety that it won't work
i have been through so many meds
Posted by Donna Louise on June 7, 2006, at 6:07:15
In reply to Re: Endogenous (Chemistry) vs. Exogenous (Life Eve, posted by pulse on June 6, 2006, at 16:41:45
> no, far as anything i've ever read or experienced, unipolar refers to chemical/ endogenous depression.
>
> exogenous simply means depression coming from the outside, and is also know as reactive depression.
>
> 'they' say that both forms can be remitted by taking ADs, but also, for the best outcomes ADs + therapy, usually of the talk variety - one on one.
>
> way back when i did enjoy kramers book 'listening to prozac.'
> not at all sure that i would nowadays...
>
> pulse
>
Yes, I get all that, I just don't understand how he lumps MAOI's in with other AD's as effecting nerve terminals as mechanism for changing transmiter levels. I understand that an MAOI increased levels of neurotransmitters by inhibiting the enzyme that removes them. Not as the others do by either not allowing reuptake at the originating terminal or preventing or overactivating reception at the recieving terminal. It is not important what he says, I just wondered if anyone knew something about this that would shed some light on why he would say that. I should have just printed that paragraph, but maybe the whole thing has been helpful to others unfamiliar with the concepts. I never read listening to prozac. I was afraid of any book at the time that might tell me not to take it, I was so fragile about it, and did not know what it was about. Do you think it is worth a read? I don't know,.. if he is lumping MAOI's with other AD's in terms of how they work....Donna
Posted by Donna Louise on June 7, 2006, at 6:13:05
In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by elanor roosevelt on June 6, 2006, at 22:35:26
> what is the story with coffee and colas
> how do they react with the parnate?
> i am starting tomorrow after a wekk of feeling okay off meds
> high energy but volaltile
> thought for once i wouldn't wait to crash and burn
> my big concern is the anxiety that it won't work
> i have been through so many medsI understand that fear all too well..we gotta keep on trying though, maybe this on will be the one..
I am on the patch and I like the MAOI. I don't have to worry about diet this way but from what I have read, coffee and cola's are ok to drink. The only think is from what I hear, Parnate can be activiting and the caffeiene can exacerbate the activation. I can drink more or less coffee depending on what I am taking. With the patch, which is activating, my coffee intake has not changed. I guess you will have to see how much is too much for you on Parnate or if it even makes a difference. I wish you the very best of luck this time around. Let us know how you are doing.Donna
Posted by SFY on June 7, 2006, at 11:55:18
In reply to Re: Endogenous (Chemistry) vs. Exogenous (Life Eve, posted by pulse on June 6, 2006, at 16:41:45
> no, far as anything i've ever read or experienced, unipolar refers to chemical/ endogenous depression.
>
> exogenous simply means depression coming from the outside, and is also know as reactive depression.
>
> 'they' say that both forms can be remitted by taking ADs, but also, for the best outcomes ADs + therapy, usually of the talk variety - one on one.
>
> way back when i did enjoy kramers book 'listening to prozac.'
> not at all sure that i would nowadays...
>
> pulseThis isn't the Kramer who wrote "Listening to Prozac", that's Peter Kramer.
In my case, I'm more vulnerable to being affected by outside events but even absent any upsetting events I still carry my depression to one degree or another.
Posted by pulse on June 7, 2006, at 13:31:01
In reply to Re: Endogenous (Chemistry) vs. Exogenous (Life Eve » pulse, posted by Donna Louise on June 7, 2006, at 6:07:15
re: listening to prozac, i read it long ago, but i don't recall maoi's even being mentioned. i could be wrong.
far as all this science part you're wanting answered, perhaps ed uk, larry hoover, sls, or linkage - others - could help you out there.
surely not me...lol. i score 98% on all right brain quizzes. i was ALL liberal arts, with a double major in art and art history; a watercolorist, then later became an interior designer. i got out of any science i possibly could in high school, and as i went to very experimental, but excellent colleges, i had no science or math requirements. just the ticket for me, and i don't regret it in the least!
pulse
.
Posted by pulse on June 7, 2006, at 13:36:58
In reply to Re: Endogenous (Chemistry) vs. Exogenous (Life Eve, posted by SFY on June 7, 2006, at 11:55:18
oops! thanks for correcting me re: this NOT being peter kramer.
i assumed it was because i seem to recall peter kramer being interviewed here, but perhaps i'm wrong in this, also.
pulse
Posted by captaindebbie on June 7, 2006, at 14:26:09
In reply to Re: MAOI diet short list, posted by jkshrews on June 2, 2006, at 10:50:59
hi,
im on 30mg of tranylcypromine (parnate), only started a few days ago.
i've had quite a few side effects: difficulty sleeping, restless limbs, mild headache and extreme tiredness.
im just wondering if anyone else has had similar experiences?
thank you
Posted by Caedmon on June 7, 2006, at 16:36:44
In reply to Re: Endogenous (Chemistry) vs. Exogenous (Life Eve » pulse, posted by Donna Louise on June 7, 2006, at 6:07:15
MAOIs both increase neurotransmitters and change receptor numbers. They do a bunch of other stuff too though, which might be part of why they work when reuptake inhibitors don't, such as working on trace amines, etc. Phenelzine and tranylcypromine both have different active metabolites that are probably psychoactive. Tranylcypromine has a metabolite which is an NRI for example.
- Chris
Posted by zana on April 7, 2007, at 12:00:42
In reply to Re: Endogenous (Chemistry) vs. Exogenous (Life Eve » Donna Louise, posted by Caedmon on June 7, 2006, at 16:36:44
Tremendously helpful info. The fear factor with MAOis and diet has been making me crazy since I am a vegan (except for the occasional steak or sliver of parmesan.)
My pdoc says soy milk is OK and I have been drinking it regularly. Wouldn't it make sense that soy ice cream is OK? And I would figure fresh frozen soy beans (edamame a Japanese favorite) would also be OK.
The tofu thing is much harder to figure out since my pdoc says it's OK if it has been in the refrigerator for a couple of days. What I can't figure out is when those days begin. When it's made, put in the fridge at the store, put in my fridge?
Interestingly, my doc put me on Cytomel (a thyroid hormone) to bridge time inbetween getting off prozac and wellbutrin. My normally low/normal tyroid function went off the map and I have never felt better! I normally take 200mgs of Provigil a day and haven't touched the stuff since the Cytomel took hold. A friend of mine who is on Synthroid says that in general your throid should be high normal if you want to feel an increase in energy. Once my level settles back down I am making a bee line for a good endocrinologist.
Posted by Honore on April 7, 2007, at 12:06:32
In reply to Re: MAOI diet, posted by zana on April 7, 2007, at 12:00:42
You can read up on the tofu stuff, but mostly if he says in the refrigerator for a few days, I'd assume that he means you can buy it and then keep it for a few days.
You're probably making it more complicated than it is, on that one. Just take it at face value.
You'll be okay, if you're careful. Just take your BP, if you feel at all concerned. You'll probably find that it's okay.
They have home BP cuffs for sale in most drugstores around here. They work adequately and are easy to use. Just wrap the cuff around your upper arm, as it illustrates, and it either self-inflates or you inflate it-- and let it go down. There's a digital read-out.
But mostly-- don't overthink this. Just read labels, ask questions if you have any-- and remember that the warnings are there because there's a risk-- but that many people take MAOIs for many years with no problem. I did. It's just a matter of getting a few things clear in your mind, which you will.
Honore
Posted by zana on April 7, 2007, at 12:10:16
In reply to Re: MAOI diet, posted by Honore on April 7, 2007, at 12:06:32
Thanx for the encouragement. It is easy (for me) to over think (obsess might be another description.)
Do you know how long after eating a troublesome food you can expect a reaction.
I will get a cuff this afternoon!
Zana
Posted by jkshrews on April 8, 2007, at 22:47:39
In reply to Re: MAOI diet, posted by zana on April 7, 2007, at 12:10:16
Zana,
The difference between soy milk and tofu or soy sauce is that the latter two have been subject to fermentation. Soy milk (or ice cream) has not.
However, I eat home-fermented yogurt constantly with no problem. I have seen it on some lists of banned items, but it certainly doesn't bother me.
The immediate sign of a problem is a headache accompanied by a stiff neck. I have had to take my emergency med (clorpromazine) twice. Both times, it was after drinking red wine. So I have eliminated that from my diet.
A reaction can come pretty fast--within a half hour to an hour after eating the offending item. And of course, eating it on an empty stomach will make it happen faster.
The really dangerous thing is not food so much as decongestants. If you were to take a cold pill containing a decongestant, you could be in real trouble.
I recently went to a minor emergency clinic because of a week-end recurrence of a sinus infection. I gave the doctor a written list of all my meds. He wrote me a script for a second-line antibiotic, and I went straight to the drug store.
The pharmacist said, "Do you want this Entex prescription filled also?" I said, "What??!!" On the same form with the antibiotic, the doctor had written me a prescription for a very strong decongestant that probably would have killed me.
I called the clinic and said, "I did not get the Entex, because I think I am too young to die!"
I have learned that I have to watch out for myself. These guys are busy pushing patients through the clinic, and they goof up on their jobs just like everyone else does.
I am going to list it with my drug allergies, of which I have one to sulfas. I will add "No sympathomimetics permitted." That will tell the doctor he cannot use or prescribe anything that looks chemically like adrenaline.
jkshrews
> Thanx for the encouragement. It is easy (for me) to over think (obsess might be another description.)
>
> Do you know how long after eating a troublesome food you can expect a reaction.
>
> I will get a cuff this afternoon!
>
> Zana
Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 8:35:57
In reply to Re: MAOI diet » zana, posted by jkshrews on April 8, 2007, at 22:47:39
Dear jkshrews,
Thanks you for the helpful information about yogurt. I don't make my own but I do eat soy yogurt from the store. I have started buying the 8oz size, so much more expensive, instead of the quart just to be sure its fresh. You don't mention tofu which I eat (or used to eat) sliced with oil and vinegar.
What a scary story about the decongestant. I guess its another example of how important it is to take care of ourselves and depend on educating ourselves.
Anybody tried to eat fresh soy beans? It seems to me they should be fine since they are not fermented.
Posted by jkshrews on April 9, 2007, at 9:35:55
In reply to Re: MAOI diet. Fresh soy beans?, posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 8:35:57
Zana,
Yes, tofu and soy sauce are both fermented, but fresh, dried, and toasted soy beans are not.
The only beans to avoid are fava beans. These are very high in L-tryptophan, which is a precursor for your brain hormone serotonin. The MAOI works partly by slowing up the clearance of serotonin from your nerve synapses. So if one eats fava beans while taking an MAOI, it can cause a big serotonin overload in the body's nervous systems, which can be deadly.
Are you doing a pure-veg diet? If so, I would really encourage you to add some milk to your regime. A pure-veg diet has almost no vitamin B-12 (cobalamine) in it. It doesn't cause a big immediate problem, because the liver can store it for years, but a woman on pure-veg cannot breast feed a baby. The body will refuse to give up any of its precious little B-12 supply, and the baby will get a bad vitamin deficiency.
jkshrews
> Dear jkshrews,
> Thanks you for the helpful information about yogurt. I don't make my own but I do eat soy yogurt from the store. I have started buying the 8oz size, so much more expensive, instead of the quart just to be sure its fresh. You don't mention tofu which I eat (or used to eat) sliced with oil and vinegar.
> What a scary story about the decongestant. I guess its another example of how important it is to take care of ourselves and depend on educating ourselves.
> Anybody tried to eat fresh soy beans? It seems to me they should be fine since they are not fermented.
Posted by gardenergirl on April 9, 2007, at 13:31:43
In reply to Re: MAOI diet. Fresh soy beans?, posted by jkshrews on April 9, 2007, at 9:35:55
It's my understanding that fresh tofu is fine, but marinated is not. I assume that is because the marination extends the "shelf life" of the tofu and would then lead to increased tyramine levels.
Now I don't eat tofu, so I can't speak from personal experience. But I feel confident about this info. I don't have a link to an old thread, but I'm sure it's here somewhere in the archives.
Namaste
gg
Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 13:51:48
I am a newbie to MAOIs and also a vegan. Anybody on MAOIs have experience eating tofu, fresh soy beans (edemame) or taking ginseng? I take a suppliment with 250mgs of siberian ginseng. Anybody have a problem with any of these foods?
Or are they OK?
Posted by Honore on April 9, 2007, at 13:51:52
In reply to MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 9:21:44
You've probably had lots of references to lists of allowed/disallowed foods. I noticed that this page had further lnks that explained in more detail which soybean foods are all right.
http://www.pccnaturalmarkets.com/health/Diet/Tyramine_Free_Diet.htm
Ginseng isn't okay, from what I remember.
Honore
Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 13:51:59
In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by Honore on April 9, 2007, at 10:32:17
Thank you Honore. Great reference. I have also heard that ginseng is not OK. I happen to have a viamin that has ginseng in it but what I'm really after are the other ingreadients. I rather not give it up, if I don't have to, because it's a great brand, Pioneer, and because I am a health care professional, psychologist, they sell to me wholesale.
Sounds like you have had a lot of experience with these drugs. Have to tried the selegiline (Emsam) patch yet. The 9mg/24hr patch gives me terrible insomnia. I'm seeing my pdoc this week and trying not to wear her out with questions, especially those she can't answer!
Posted by jkshrews on April 9, 2007, at 16:32:43
In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 11:27:51
Selegiline metabolizes to D-amphetamine and methamphetamine, which are good antidepressants in and of themselves. Because they require MAO to be eliminated, and the selegiline has it suppressed, they will build up to a higher level than they would have otherwise. Some appetite suppression and insomnia may occur, but you may get over it in time. I take Rozerem at 9 PM nightly to help with the sleep cycle, and I have Sonata on hand to take occassionally if I awaken after only three or four hours of sleep.
jkshrews
> Thank you Honore. Great reference. I have also heard that ginseng is not OK. I happen to have a viamin that has ginseng in it but what I'm really after are the other ingreadients. I rather not give it up, if I don't have to, because it's a great brand, Pioneer, and because I am a health care professional, psychologist, they sell to me wholesale.
> Sounds like you have had a lot of experience with these drugs. Have to tried the selegiline (Emsam) patch yet. The 9mg/24hr patch gives me terrible insomnia. I'm seeing my pdoc this week and trying not to wear her out with questions, especially those she can't answer!
Posted by Honore on April 9, 2007, at 16:54:03
In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by jkshrews on April 9, 2007, at 16:32:43
A small amount of seroquel is also useful, if rozerem and/or ambien aren't enough.
Sonata is particularly good if you wake up with a few hours left to sleep, since it has a very short half-life.
I recommend Emsam, but of course, there are many individual factors that affect which drug is best. jkshrews is probably right, that the sleep issues subside'; I'm not sure they go away completely, but the extra energy from Emsam makes them more manageable.
Parnate also has some amphetamine-like breakdown products, so it should give you energy. Didn't work that way for me-- but does for many people.
Honore
Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 18:06:44
In reply to Re: MAOI diet. Fresh soy beans?, posted by gardenergirl on April 9, 2007, at 13:31:43
Then you for the information. Tofu is actually wonderful just sliced up with oil and vinegar. I'll see if I can find the information on marination.
namaste
Zana
Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 18:09:10
In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by Honore on April 9, 2007, at 10:32:17
Honore,
jkshrews gave me this link too. It is a good link. I don't think all that much research has been done on soy and MAOIs but this one is pretty complete.
Thank you.
Zana
Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 18:14:22
In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by jkshrews on April 9, 2007, at 16:32:43
I take seroquel at night (25mg) and have had to double the dose some nights. It would be great if this was an early side effect that passed! I could live with the wide dreams but not the no sleep.
Thanx again,
Zana
Posted by zana on April 9, 2007, at 18:17:30
In reply to Re: MAOI Diet: ginseng and fresh soy beans, posted by Honore on April 9, 2007, at 16:54:03
Having been on every other antidepressant in the world, including Provigil, the energy really is amazing and what a relief!
I'm so used to the seroquel that the double dose doesn't bother me much. I also take klonpin but I hate to increase it because it is sooo hard to get off.
Zana
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