![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 111 to 135 of 143. Go back in thread:
Posted by linkadge on February 17, 2006, at 18:51:11
In reply to Re: Please be civil » Devastated Mother, posted by simon levane on February 17, 2006, at 10:30:58
I agree. Psychiatry tries so hard to put the blame back on the patient. Their drugs are never to blame. All of their reasoning goes back to blame the patient. Maybe the patient had an underlying bipolar disorder. Maybe it was the depression that caused the suicide. The list goes on.
Scientitst are developing animal models of some of the funky behavior that these drugs can induce. If this behavior is significant enough that *multi-million* dollar studies can be initiated to see why the drug is inducing rapid-cycling etc.. then why on earth isn't that money going into protecting patients from the drugs in the first place ?
www.neurotransmitter.net has a whole page devoted to research on SSRI induced mania.
It just doesn't make sence to me.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on February 17, 2006, at 18:53:44
In reply to Re: Please be civil » simon levane, posted by dancingstar on February 17, 2006, at 10:39:26
My doctor told me that the Effexor induced increase in blood pressure was not a fault of the drug. B.S. I know that after taking the drug my blood pressure increased significantly. Some doctors think they are doing the patient good by lying to them, or by downplaying the side effects, in hopes that they'll take the drug and it workes. But when a doctor downplays a side effect to the point that the patient may kill themselves because they feel that the increased suicidality could have nothing to do with the drug. That is wrong.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on February 17, 2006, at 18:58:50
In reply to Re: Please be civil » simon levane, posted by dancingstar on February 17, 2006, at 11:55:26
I think you are right. If you are depressed because of adrenal exhaustion, taking an SNRI like effexor will boost the little norepinephrine left that your body is producing, but this is hardly getting to the root of the problem. In some ways they can really work like stimulants.
Linkadge
Posted by simon levane on February 17, 2006, at 19:00:46
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by lifetime on February 16, 2006, at 14:37:32
Dear Herb..
I am sorry that my response is out of sequence in the thread. I find it difficult to answer you. The difficulty is that after the fact, I can see so much that I should have done differently, and I can see my own ignorance, and i can see if I had researched my daughter's illness, I could have helped her better, and the last year and 8 months since her death in the subway, I have been living an unending nightmare of regret and guilt and of loss. Perhaps you understand a lot in helping managing your wife's treatment, and it is very true that some adolescents and young adults complete suicide without any warning or indication.
I have heard of cases first hand in which a teenager had attempted suicide and was taken to a hospital, then released to her parent's care, and succeeded in completing suicide a few weeks later -- imagine the mother's broken heart to experience this..
My daughter was ill for 8 years and we went through periods when she was going to school and doing well, and had many happy moments, but we never had the kind of support and education that was needed, and we depended on the guidance of the medical caregivers.
I have written at some length of our experience in losing our child. My experience in losing my daughter as i was a single parent. There is a huge evidence and doctors who speak against the indiscriminant use of anti-depressants and of ritalin.. The anecdotal reports are even more compelling when someone writes of a specific experience taking one of these drugs and feeling suicidal... How can anyone discount this???????????????
I was a fool in hindsight, but I trusted our GP and sadly, he trusted the psychiatrist specialist and neither of them warned us of the risk. On top of this, I had the pharmacist delay giving us the medication, so there was a presumed consultation with the family doctor who confirmed the dosage and was not cognitant of the risk because he hadn't read the warnings that were 5 YEARS OLD.
There are issues here of accountability, and of proper assessment of risk. I sat with my daughter meeting a specialist who made me feel as if things were not so bad... that she had some issues that needed medication and this would help and in time she would get better, but she was dealing with symptoms from her area of clinical research specialty and she NEVER gave us an indication of the risk or that my daughter should be monitored and what to do if she expressed suicidal ideation.. none of that..
My daughter spoke of suicide sometimes because she was fascinated by Kurt Cobain's death and Marilyn Monroe's death - she wrote an essay on this in school.. she had me watch Girl Interrupted with her, and I thought she identified with the main character.. and thought she had taken wisdom from the tragedy of that movie.. thought she was beyond thinking of taking her life.. She liked to push my "buttons" and i worried if I reacted with too much concern to an adolescent threat -- it would raise the ante..... Dear God!!! i was trained by a parent support group not to take the hook of suicidal threat cause lots of kids may use that as a lever... how wrong they were!!!
There is a disbelief that your child could do such a thing.. No one can fathom that.. imagine it.. I could not.. now I live it..
The bottom line, Herb, is that we must keep our children safe.. and no one should put them at risk... This means that drugs should be dispensed with care and caution, and that medical records should be properly shared, and parents must be educated and involved in the care of our children.. our at risk children.
I trusted our GP because he had always been a good doctor and had always handled the usual medical things with care and thoughtfulness, but this was out of his scope, and he missed so many clues that we were telling him.. and he took on the responsibility of prescribing a drug about which he knew almost NOTHING.... and even at face with a concerned pharmacist he still didn't look it up, but relied on the specialist who had recommended it, and she was ignorant of my daughter's full medical history and so full of her own area of specialization that she even missed the fact that Ritalin can cause symptoms of OCD and has its own risks...
My daughter also contributed to this by not telling us the truth about her addiction to Ritalin.
At end, it cost us her life.. All of us.. her, and me and all who loved her.....
And it cost DM her son's life.. Her wonderful son who hardly had a trouble, but was prescribed the drug without the doctor letting DM know of the potential risk...
In both cases, the risk was not explained....
DM is without fault or blame, but I am not so free because I should have researched this, but I was duped by the impression that there was no significant risk.. and I went home that night with the new meds and gave my daughter the two capsules not realizing it would be the last time i would ever see her alive..
And the answer to all of this "Depressed people kill themselves".. how simplistic and distorted..
I am reminded of a drug that was used to cure severe acne.. and there was a risk factor of about 1 in a 100,000 for anaplastic anemia.. totally incurable.. so in a nation of 250,000,000 with who knows how many kids with bad acne.. that drug could potentially kill hundreds of kids every year.. It was removed from the market.. and you know what? Few doctors ever told parents or patients of that risk. Would you give you kid a drug that could kill them to cure acne.... ??????
sure a few million kids used it without any side effect, but would you have risked your child's life? It is the same thing with these anti-depressants. Had I known this, I would have been home that night and my daughter would likely still be alive now as i sit here and write this pain out.........
Due diligence.. accountability... proper education.. not this lackadaisical attitude even after the fact, when it has cost the lives of our children and we live in the agony of pain, and some of us have not only the loss and the missing of our children, but the guilt that we could have done better had we been wiser and less flawed...
that is the reality...
Simon
>
Dear Mr. Levane,
>
> I can emphasize with your feelings and express my condolences at the tragedy that has befallen your family and others from the seriousness of mood disorders. The fact is from my experiences and knowledge no mood disorder should ever be taken lightly and what at one moment may seem trivial could easily and rapidly escalate into suicidal ideations and the successful attempt at taking one’s own life.
>
> Whether or not you are aware there are many successful adolescent suicides without the patient ever being on any medication and/or treatment. While I am knowledgeable from my readings that it is thought that in some instances the use of medications maybe a causation or contributing factor to increasing suicidal ideations the fact still remains there is no definitive correlations and many conflicting research reports.
>
> While I cannot undo that which has taken place I can share my experiences, research and knowledge without giving any advice. If one finds it comforting and enabling to take legal action then do as one sees fit. While I still face the possibility of my spouse taking her life one day I continue to advocate for education. Mood disorders should be taken seriously. Mood disorders are potentially fatal. Medications to treat these disorders should be taken seriously. Awareness that medications have potential side-effects should be taken seriously. Awareness that medications not only have potential side-effects but can lead to death also applies to medications other than psychotropics. For that matter one should be aware that over the counter drugs such as aspirin can kill too.
>
> You speak about “risk management.” Even as a youngster I heard an old saying when one takes drugs, “There is no free ride as there is a price to pay in one form or another.” I’ve been handling “risk management” for over 42 years in collaboration with doctors, good doctors and more importantly better doctors. In our travails we’ve encountered doctors who think their deities and others that didn’t listen. We simply made informed decisions and moved on to another physician. While many doctors heed the call “TO DO NO HARM” others are truly compassionate and caring and do make their best efforts to relieve the angish, pain and suffering of their patients suffering from horrific mood disorders and go above their call of duty to help. We have been fortunate to have had a number of those physicians attending to my spouse. While there are no guarantees when treating mood disorders one doctor in particular went beyond the bounds of the drug company specifications which I cited elsewhere relating to mega dosing of Effexor XR. The point I am making is the doctor suggested, we asked questions, we researched and made a reasonably informed decision regardless of the fact that this particular doctor was an M.D., professor, lecturer, researcher, published researcher and noted psychopharmacologist and authority. As a former DBSA facilitator I’ve listened to thousands of personal experiences of horror stories, tragedies and triumphs but we’ve always continued to encourage education, self-advocacy, support networks and systems and the like. There are no easy answers to what works or why these things happen but what we can do is to share our experiences and knowledge so hopefully others can benefit from those experiences both bad and good.
>
> I would hope from your writings and that of “Devastated Mother” too that other parents reading this thread take the time to educate themselves quickly, to maintain lines of communication with one’s child, to try and discuss the situation with the attending physician and most importantly carefully observe any changes in the patient’s mood state especially when first initiating and/or changing any treatment regimen. I might also point out that it is not unheard of having to go through numerous treatment options and/or combinations of options in order to obtain a favorable response and/or outcome.
>
> Warmly,
> Herb
> VNSdepression.com
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> .
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Posted by linkadge on February 17, 2006, at 19:14:32
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on February 17, 2006, at 19:00:46
I don't think I have bipolar disorder. I mean people who know me now (off drugs) think that I am stable as a rock. I had been prescribed effexor and ritalin at one time (a few yrs back). Let me tell you, it was a roller coaster from hell. The effexor greatly enhanced the stimulant effect of the ritalin. Mid-day my vision would be so bright that I can say I probably know what crack cocoaine feels like. By the end of the day I would crash so low it was unbelievable. I could bearly move. Sometimes I thought I went blind because when the drugs wore off I could barley see anything in the room. Usually I would literally go into my closit and curl up in a ball and cry and shake untill the low started to subside.
It was scarry stuff, and in hindsight I am lucky to have survived. But all I can tell you is that don't have a doubt in your mind that the drugs can influence things. During those lows, the ways that my brain would think of ways to end it all was scarry stuff. I thought about jumping infront of traffic, downing a bottle of tranquilizers, shooting myself at the foot of a bridge, the list goes on and on and on.
I would not doubt for a minaute that an effexor ritalin wouldn't have the potential to set one up for some MAJOR LOWS.
Linkadge
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 17, 2006, at 19:32:33
In reply to Re: Please be civil » Devastated Mother, posted by simon levane on February 17, 2006, at 10:30:58
"I had the naive belief that no one would prescribe a drug to my daughter that had this high risk without advising me.. and hearing the family doctor had said OK to the pharmacist,, neither of which explained the risk factors to me, nor did the consulting psychiatrist. How could a parent imagine that a drug had such risk?"
Simon, please do not think you were alone in being naive. We all have to trust doctors to some extent, but I must agree with you that since I now can very well imagine that a doctor might prescribe a drug that had such a risk, It will be a long time before I trust doctors again for any reason.
I really wish I could do something to diminish your pain. But the fact is, I know as well as you do that nothing can really help, except some time, and even that.....
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 17, 2006, at 19:45:45
In reply to Re: I beg to differ, posted by linkadge on February 17, 2006, at 18:43:06
Linkadge,
Actually, both my son and Simon's daughter were 20, which I believe would be considered adult by these standards, but the reaction was exactly what is considered a risk for "children". I personally think there may be predispositions that are unrelated to age.Thank you for your support.
> You could be right. And the question is very valid. Why would a drug cause suicidal impulses in children but not adults? There are studies suggesting that the drugs can induce similar reactions in adults.
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> I remember reading an adult study of *normal* vaulenteers feeling more suicidal after taking active SSRI over placebo. Similar studies have been shown in adults taking paxil.
>
> Linkadge
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Posted by linkadge on February 17, 2006, at 21:05:23
In reply to Re: I beg to differ, posted by Devastated Mother on February 17, 2006, at 19:45:45
I am currently 23 ... I think. But I would have been 19 or 20 when I was on effexor.
Linkadge
Posted by dancingstar on February 18, 2006, at 1:58:11
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Kneeko on February 16, 2006, at 5:54:03
Once the drug has hurt one as badly as many of us have been hurt -- and many have been hurt so much worse than I have -- we don't want to see anyone else ever again damaged as a result of having taken it. Even one lost life is too many. One life in pain as a result of having taking a drug that unknowingly harms that person is too many when the drug company knows the possibilites of these dangers and fails to adequately warn the the public and implies that their drug is inherently safe, no matter what good that drug may do for others. And who even knows what dangers these others will face down the line if the whole truth is not being told about the dangers of a drug in the first place?
If Effexor is to remain on the market at all, in my opinion its use should be strictly limited, and patients and their families warned about how dangerous it can be. As it stands now, it is being prescribed by all sorts of doctors throughout the medical community and handed out somewhat freely.
Posted by lifetime on February 18, 2006, at 2:01:39
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on February 17, 2006, at 19:00:46
Dear Simon,
I would like to try to make several points perfectly clear. The first being I am not faulting you or anyone for what was done or not done. I feel for you and I can empathize with the tragedy and the sense that you believe you could have done something. The fact is, from my personal experiences and knowledge; one cannot prevent a determined individual from taking his/her own life. My spouse has attempted suicide seven times and while I may be more knowledgeable about depression than most folks I could not prevent those attempts. As I stated previously, I was a former DBSA facilitator. I also lost a number of close friends to suicide as well as group participants who suffered from mood disorders. In many instances I (we) were aware the individual(s) were experiencing suicidal ideations. In several instances we acted by having the person hospitalized in order to intervene (in the state of Florida there is the Baker Act which allows the individual to be confined for 72 hours of observation, against their will, if the individual is deemed a threat to his or her self or anyone else) and yet some of these same individuals were unfortunately successful in their later attempts.
I am not trained or knowledgeable in how to lend support to those who are grieving under these unusual circumstances other than to express my sincere condolences and to share some of my personal experiences. Certainly, if you knew you could’ve acted and tried to intervene but the point I am trying to make is there are times when one knows as I do and yet I have been powerless to prevent the act. I would only share with you my belief that beating oneself up is counterproductive and while we all appear to see faults in the system, doctors, medications, treatments, ourselves etc I prefer to take what I consider a positive and more productive approach and that is to try and share and educate especially since I am still an active support person and health care advocate to my spouse. I no longer participate in many of my former advocacy and support rolls quite simply because it just took too much out of me so I now spend some of my time sharing and advocating through websites and message forums of this kind.
I shall also add that my brother-in-law also committed a slow suicide through the use of drugs and alcohol and yet all were powerless to prevent the act.
I am also not here defending anyone’s physician. I am here to state from my knowledge they are not Gods and also from my knowledge they are all not equally knowledgeable. From my personal experiences many doctors do not spend equal time studying case histories etc and they have been known to make mistakes and in some instances fatal mistakes.
One last point I would like to make. Knowing that which I do about depression I try to share with those not as knowledgeable what I believe is the unfortunate circumstances that when treating depression the reality is that it is in my opinion a “Trail and Error Approach to Wellness.” Since each individual responds differently there is absolutely no way of knowing in advance which will or will not respond to any medication and/or therapy and the extent or severity to which any individual will experience side-effects and/or contraindications. To which I shall also add from my research the many conflicting research studies on medications and various therapies as I have already cited for the other young man. I also noted the fact that while there were several tragic results attributed to Effexor XR on this forum my spouse had a successful period using very high dosages of the drug without side-effects and was also able to withdraw without any side-effects also contrary to other experiences shared here. I would also add that over the years we have been through the pharmacopeia of medications trying to maintain my spouse’s wellness. While some medications proved beneficial eventually she was refractory to most. While my spouse has had some truly bad experiences with several medications I do not condemn or advocate for the banning of any drug simply because I am also aware others have benefited. This same approach applies to ECT. While there are individuals advocating for banning the therapy I oppose such a stance simply because I am aware it benefited my spouse and others and therefore I personally prefer to educate by way of sharing our experiences and knowledge.
So again I share with you my condolences knowing that even if you did everything correctly you still may have been powerless to prevent the situation.
I wish you peace and only good and pleasant memories of your beloved daughter.
Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 18, 2006, at 4:08:03
In reply to Re: Please be civil » gardenergirl, posted by lifetime on February 17, 2006, at 0:07:16
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 18, 2006, at 4:19:38
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » lifetime, posted by linkadge on February 17, 2006, at 18:37:09
> missing the point
> Trying to blame these "devastated" parents
> very insensitive in my oppinion.As gg said, this is a sensitive topic and emotions can run high, but please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused.
Please also don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by simon levane on February 18, 2006, at 16:37:57
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » simon levane, posted by lifetime on February 18, 2006, at 2:01:39
Thanks for your response Herb...
While I do agree with you that there are many cases in which a person who intends suicide finally succeeds, and there are also cases in which someone completes suicide without warning -- there are also so many cases in which our loved ones could have been saved if only we had known or had better education about suicide risk. I don't recall anyone suggesting that a particular anti-depressant drug be removed from the market. Even the recognized activist researchers in this this area who have been warning about these drugs for years, such as David Healy and Joseph Glenmullen, have never said that the drugs should be banned. I don't think it is a question of whether these drugs are useful for many patients in a carefully supervised plan of care. Glenmullen wrote a recent book called "The Anti-depressant Solution" in which he describes the risks that are so often not told to patients. Healey had an appointment to the University of Toronto in Canada to head a department for psychiatric research, but as he spoke up about Prozac, and one of the key funders of research at the University was one of the major drug manufacturers, his appointment was cancelled. He sued and won a substantial settlement (though part of the settlement was that the details were kept private - not unusual in such cases). It is generally known that this had to do with anti-depressants and it seems that the university did not want to lose the funding.
I know of a friend's spouse who is on a low dose of Effexor that helps her a lot, but she is not an adolescent, young adult, and in her case, her family was kept well appraised of the drug in terms of benefit and risk.
I cannot help but feel guilty and regretful that I did not research my daughter's illness, that I did not ask more questions about her medications. As I wrote, this omission on my part has cost me a price beyond imagination in sorrow and pain.
I can only forgive myself in the context of how difficult it was coping.. and being in the centre of things with my child, I could not see the risk. It is very easy to be upset with a young adult child who is acting out in a variety of ways. I was in the typical "sandwich" generation between an elderly parent and a troubled young adult child. All roads led to me. I also cannot excuse myself for my own flaws.. and we all have flaws, but thank goodness most people do not experience such an outcome.
I think that the main point that both DM and I are making is that the medical system failed our children and failed us, and it is clear, has failed a lot of people in the area of psychiatric drugs.
That is the point we are making here. So many mistakes... Devastated Mom lost her beloved son because her family doctor seemed to prescribe Effexor in a truly lackadaisical manner.. imagine the doctor saying, "Oh,, you feel down... here, take this.. make you feel better. No harm" and in the case of my daughter so many many mistakes of care... too many to write here.
When I learned that the warnings about Effexor have been on the label in some manner since 1999, it made me want to scream. And at end, all of these doctors basically just shrug it off by the classical justification "Depressed people kill themselves" and that excuses the possible risk of the anti-depressant.
Both DM's son and my daughter are classical cases of impulse acts caused by anti-depressants, because both of them were kids who had a lot to live for. Neither of us can prove that it was the Effexor, but if there was a risk for DM's son, then his family should have been told and could have been told with his permission. In my daughter's case, the multiplicity of errors are so many that I don't know what to say. The only way this can be prevented in the future is through proper education of doctors, of family, of all the caregivers. I just lived in this illusion that my beloved child could not do this to herself or to me. I may have been upset at her often, but I was there .... and I needed help to cope with her, and if there was anything that I needed most of all, it was an understanding of the risk, and that the medical caregivers themselves had properly shared her medical history to help us help her. Instead, everyone just minimized and gave her little attention, and I could not believe that she would do this. Someone recently asked me how I was doing and I told him that I lived in agony. He said... "well life must go on".. and I said to him.. "could you imagine one of your children taking their own life?"... When I said that, I could see his face scrunch up and it told me that even the thought of that was so horrible that he wanted to block it out.
I cannot write of this as well as those many concerned professionals in health care and social work. Some doctors just prescribe these drugs without much consideration of risk. Ritalin is another case that is hugely overprescribed to "manage" kids... Most of the kids on this drug probably do not need it.
My daughter's case could read in a text book about all the wrong things that should NOT be done to look after an adolsecent with Borderline Personality Disorder. Her death was the outcome of risk factors that were simply not explained to me or her mother. The Effexor was just the tipping point that allowed the total risk factors to kill my child. But the case of DM's son and the anecdotal testaments of those who have used this drug speak so loudly about doctors stopping and thinking before they prescribe these drugs. I heard a psychiatrist justify his prescribing the drug by stating he gave it to hundreds of people without any harmful effects. Sounds so easy unless one becomes the exception case - and loses a 20 year old daughter to suicide.
Her life plays over in my head and I struggle to somehow live, because I have the loss and the pain and torment of my own stupidity and how I duped myself into thinking she was not at risk.
I could have researched her illness and kept better track myself, but I simply was fooled by the lack of concern of doctors,a statement by the specialist that with the Effexor she would be OK and my own angst about her behaviours. You see, for me in my day to day interaction with her, she was not really mentally ill, she just was my kid who was troubled and who always played me to get what she wanted, and used to laugh about how she could persuade me to get what she wanted. What I didn't realize is that she had become an addict, and the medical caregivers didn't see it either when they should have known if they had been properly educated in the drugs they were prescribing. The risk therefore was multiplied, and all who knew her truly believe that her suicide was an impulse act facilitated by the Effexor and her drug abuse. Yes, doctors are human of course, and they are prone to errors as well, but there must be a basic standard of care that seems to be missing. Proper advice to patients and family caregivers within the context of risk factors, and proper medical history disclosure to enable correct diagnosis. In the other medical specialties this seems to happen as so many of the procedures are based on solid scientific diagnostic evidence, but in the case of psychiatry, this is far from being the case. There needs to be more effort to develop diagnostics that are more than "guesswork" by one or other psychiatrist. And the knowledge of psychiatrists about treatment is also very suspect. This is all the more reason that psychiatric drugs should not be prescribed without a proper assessement and disclosure, and clear warnings about risks. This should not be left to chance. It is truly back to that essential medical principal "DO NO HARM".
Simon
Posted by dancingstar on February 18, 2006, at 16:53:57
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » lifetime, posted by simon levane on February 18, 2006, at 16:37:57
Beautifully written, Simon. Made me cry.
I know that the pain is still too fresh and hurts too badly to cope with doing much right now, but I hope that some day you will go on to help shed light on this problem so that other families can be helped. You are a smart, articulate, wise man, Simon, with a lot to give. Hang in there.
Posted by simon levane on February 18, 2006, at 17:06:30
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » lifetime, posted by linkadge on February 17, 2006, at 18:37:09
I fully agree with you Linkadge, but I think that Lifetime did not understand the implication of his post. I think he does understand that now, and did not mean hurt to us.
This is a learning process.. for me and DM and for other parents who have lost children to suicide, the penalty we have to live with is beyond comprehension. For DM, this was something completely out of the sky as if lightning had struck her son without warning. For me, it had years of complexity, but still, it should not have happened. Your sharing of your own experiences with both Effexor and Ritalin I hope serves to help others, and educate. You are lucky that you got through it as you stated.
We sure hope you are not using any drugs any more. I used to be a heavy smoker, and I stopped 15 years ago. One of the reasons was that I did not want my daughter to lose her father at a young age. I still am a non smoker in spite of everything. I could easily start again, but apart from the cost, it would be as if I was betraying my daughter cause I know she would not have wanted me to start again.
Simon> >While I cannot do anything to save or help those >parents whose children have past there maybe a >parent intelligent enough to question and read >before blindly accepting and proceeding just >because a doctor said something.
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> I think you are missing the point here. Trying to blame these "devastated" parents even more by suggesting that they were blind is very insensitive in my oppinion. The only reason these parents were "blind" was because of the current state of drug laws.
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> This is not about patients *chosing* to make uninformed decisions. This is about the fact that information is not readily available, and that it is actively downplayed by drug companies in order to maximize drug profits.
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> Linkadge
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Posted by Devastated Mother on February 18, 2006, at 17:23:56
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » lifetime, posted by simon levane on February 18, 2006, at 16:37:57
Simon and Herb,
Simon, you are right that no one is suggesting that effexor is not a good drug for some people. I think the bottom line is this: DO NO HARM requires following the guidelines on the insert. It means that the prescribing doctor has some obligation to inform the family about the potential dangers of the drug their loved one is taking. In this case, assuming depression, it is absolutely ludicrous to expect the patient to tell others that "the drug I am on says I might become suicidal, so please watch me." OK, I can't even imagine saying that to my best friend, and I am not depressed. Except when I think about the insensitive, uncaring doctor who ignored the basic needs for care that my son had, and who might as well have held a gun to his head.
Simon, I applaud you for occasionally telling people around you that you are not going to be like them any more. I understand that very well. This has changed everyone who knew my son, for life. My remaining son, my daughter, my husband, me, and countless other relatives, including my mother who loved him dearly.
The one thing I have learned from this horrible life tragedy is that I must always ask for what I need, and there is not enough time for telling half truths. Life is too short, so I am brutally honest, even when my honesty might hurt. So, when you hurt, Simon, it does not help to try to hide it, unless that serves some purpose you might have (for example a person with whom you have a surface relationship who does not deserve this level of intimacy--interesting that I am willing to say these things here, where I know none of you really except Simon...). If people think it is time to get over it, they just don't get it. There is no getting over it. There is no healing. There may be a diminishing of the pain to a managable level. But I think of my son every moment of every day. Every day, I think of the grandchildren I will not have, of the uncle he will not be for my other children, of the cousin he was to many wonderful children who loved him dearly, and who were so hurt by his passing. I think of how excited he was to learn new things, and how creative and excited he was about life. So, no, world, we will never be what we were. So don't ask us to be. Don't be surprised when we cry for seemingly no reason at all. Our very being has been defiled, and we are in a place so agonizing you cannot imagine it.
Posted by linkadge on February 18, 2006, at 18:04:13
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » linkadge, posted by simon levane on February 18, 2006, at 17:06:30
"We sure hope you are not using any drugs any more"
Just to clarify, I always used drugs as prescribed. The crashing I got from ritalin/effexor, was crashing after theraputic doses wore off.
For the most part I have been off drugs, but I do like to stay connected with doctors since sometimes I might need a sleeping pill or the like.
People need to hear real stories. If people only believe what a doctor tells them about a drug, then they won't be hearing the whole story.
Linkadge
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 19, 2006, at 4:14:54
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by linkadge on February 18, 2006, at 18:04:13
My son was taking the effexor exactly as prescribed. The coroner checked for appropriate traces in his system. So sometimes, even though you are taking drugs exactly the way the doctor prescribed them, they can be deadly.
When you know all the risks of the particular drug you are taking, then you can, of course, take them more effectively. The withdrawal effects are listed right on the insert, so I assume you knew what you would be facing before starting to go off them.????
DM
> "We sure hope you are not using any drugs any more"
>
> Just to clarify, I always used drugs as prescribed. The crashing I got from ritalin/effexor, was crashing after theraputic doses wore off.
>
> For the most part I have been off drugs, but I do like to stay connected with doctors since sometimes I might need a sleeping pill or the like.
>
> People need to hear real stories. If people only believe what a doctor tells them about a drug, then they won't be hearing the whole story.
>
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 19, 2006, at 10:25:34
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » lifetime, posted by simon levane on February 18, 2006, at 16:37:57
> Glenmullen wrote a recent book called "The Anti-depressant Solution" in which he describes the risks that are so often not told to patients.
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book, movie, or music without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by fenix on February 20, 2006, at 9:26:29
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » lifetime, posted by simon levane on February 18, 2006, at 16:37:57
> Thanks for your response Herb...
> While I do agree with you that there are many cases in which a person who intends suicide finally succeeds, and there are also cases in which someone completes suicide without warning -- there are also so many cases in which our loved ones could have been saved if only we had known or had better education about suicide risk. I don't recall anyone suggesting that a particular anti-depressant drug be removed from the market. Even the recognized activist researchers in this this area who have been warning about these drugs for years, such as David Healy and Joseph Glenmullen, have never said that the drugs should be banned. I don't think it is a question of whether these drugs are useful for many patients in a carefully supervised plan of care. Glenmullen wrote a recent book called "The Anti-depressant Solution" in which he describes the risks that are so often not told to patients. Healey had an appointment to the University of Toronto in Canada to head a department for psychiatric research, but as he spoke up about Prozac, and one of the key funders of research at the University was one of the major drug manufacturers, his appointment was cancelled. He sued and won a substantial settlement (though part of the settlement was that the details were kept private - not unusual in such cases). It is generally known that this had to do with anti-depressants and it seems that the university did not want to lose the funding.
> I know of a friend's spouse who is on a low dose of Effexor that helps her a lot, but she is not an adolescent, young adult, and in her case, her family was kept well appraised of the drug in terms of benefit and risk.
> I cannot help but feel guilty and regretful that I did not research my daughter's illness, that I did not ask more questions about her medications. As I wrote, this omission on my part has cost me a price beyond imagination in sorrow and pain.
> I can only forgive myself in the context of how difficult it was coping.. and being in the centre of things with my child, I could not see the risk. It is very easy to be upset with a young adult child who is acting out in a variety of ways. I was in the typical "sandwich" generation between an elderly parent and a troubled young adult child. All roads led to me. I also cannot excuse myself for my own flaws.. and we all have flaws, but thank goodness most people do not experience such an outcome.
> I think that the main point that both DM and I are making is that the medical system failed our children and failed us, and it is clear, has failed a lot of people in the area of psychiatric drugs.
> That is the point we are making here. So many mistakes... Devastated Mom lost her beloved son because her family doctor seemed to prescribe Effexor in a truly lackadaisical manner.. imagine the doctor saying, "Oh,, you feel down... here, take this.. make you feel better. No harm" and in the case of my daughter so many many mistakes of care... too many to write here.
> When I learned that the warnings about Effexor have been on the label in some manner since 1999, it made me want to scream. And at end, all of these doctors basically just shrug it off by the classical justification "Depressed people kill themselves" and that excuses the possible risk of the anti-depressant.
> Both DM's son and my daughter are classical cases of impulse acts caused by anti-depressants, because both of them were kids who had a lot to live for. Neither of us can prove that it was the Effexor, but if there was a risk for DM's son, then his family should have been told and could have been told with his permission. In my daughter's case, the multiplicity of errors are so many that I don't know what to say. The only way this can be prevented in the future is through proper education of doctors, of family, of all the caregivers. I just lived in this illusion that my beloved child could not do this to herself or to me. I may have been upset at her often, but I was there .... and I needed help to cope with her, and if there was anything that I needed most of all, it was an understanding of the risk, and that the medical caregivers themselves had properly shared her medical history to help us help her. Instead, everyone just minimized and gave her little attention, and I could not believe that she would do this. Someone recently asked me how I was doing and I told him that I lived in agony. He said... "well life must go on".. and I said to him.. "could you imagine one of your children taking their own life?"... When I said that, I could see his face scrunch up and it told me that even the thought of that was so horrible that he wanted to block it out.
> I cannot write of this as well as those many concerned professionals in health care and social work. Some doctors just prescribe these drugs without much consideration of risk. Ritalin is another case that is hugely overprescribed to "manage" kids... Most of the kids on this drug probably do not need it.
> My daughter's case could read in a text book about all the wrong things that should NOT be done to look after an adolsecent with Borderline Personality Disorder. Her death was the outcome of risk factors that were simply not explained to me or her mother. The Effexor was just the tipping point that allowed the total risk factors to kill my child. But the case of DM's son and the anecdotal testaments of those who have used this drug speak so loudly about doctors stopping and thinking before they prescribe these drugs. I heard a psychiatrist justify his prescribing the drug by stating he gave it to hundreds of people without any harmful effects. Sounds so easy unless one becomes the exception case - and loses a 20 year old daughter to suicide.
> Her life plays over in my head and I struggle to somehow live, because I have the loss and the pain and torment of my own stupidity and how I duped myself into thinking she was not at risk.
> I could have researched her illness and kept better track myself, but I simply was fooled by the lack of concern of doctors,a statement by the specialist that with the Effexor she would be OK and my own angst about her behaviours. You see, for me in my day to day interaction with her, she was not really mentally ill, she just was my kid who was troubled and who always played me to get what she wanted, and used to laugh about how she could persuade me to get what she wanted. What I didn't realize is that she had become an addict, and the medical caregivers didn't see it either when they should have known if they had been properly educated in the drugs they were prescribing. The risk therefore was multiplied, and all who knew her truly believe that her suicide was an impulse act facilitated by the Effexor and her drug abuse. Yes, doctors are human of course, and they are prone to errors as well, but there must be a basic standard of care that seems to be missing. Proper advice to patients and family caregivers within the context of risk factors, and proper medical history disclosure to enable correct diagnosis. In the other medical specialties this seems to happen as so many of the procedures are based on solid scientific diagnostic evidence, but in the case of psychiatry, this is far from being the case. There needs to be more effort to develop diagnostics that are more than "guesswork" by one or other psychiatrist. And the knowledge of psychiatrists about treatment is also very suspect. This is all the more reason that psychiatric drugs should not be prescribed without a proper assessement and disclosure, and clear warnings about risks. This should not be left to chance. It is truly back to that essential medical principal "DO NO HARM".
> Simon
Not to get too off subject here but, I have had a few talks with Dr. Joe Glenmullen in the past. He's a good guy and his book gives a fair look at the situation.
Posted by simon levane on February 20, 2006, at 17:31:18
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by fenix on February 20, 2006, at 9:26:29
> Interesting... Fenix
can you share any insights from your privilege to speak to Dr. Glenmullen..
If only his warnings had been better known to other doctors, but sadly, this information is sometimes just not of interest to us if we are not aware of risks..
I wish I had known of this before.. but the doctors so many of them, just don't bother to advise enough...
sad.
beyond comprehension.. beyond measure
Simon
>
> Not to get too off subject here but, I have had a few talks with Dr. Joe Glenmullen in the past. He's a good guy and his book gives a fair look at the situation.
>
Posted by simon levane on February 20, 2006, at 17:35:34
In reply to Re: double double quotes » simon levane, posted by Dr. Bob on February 19, 2006, at 10:25:34
> > Glenmullen wrote a recent book called "The Anti-depressant Solution" in which he describes the risks that are so often not told to patients.
>
> I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
>
> The first time anyone refers to a book, movie, or music without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
>
> Thanks!
>
> Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 20, 2006, at 17:45:13
In reply to Re: double double quotes: Thanks.. will do, posted by simon levane on February 20, 2006, at 17:35:34
Posted by fenix on February 20, 2006, at 20:00:44
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » fenix, posted by simon levane on February 20, 2006, at 17:31:18
> > Interesting... Fenix
> can you share any insights from your privilege to speak to Dr. Glenmullen..
> If only his warnings had been better known to other doctors, but sadly, this information is sometimes just not of interest to us if we are not aware of risks..
> I wish I had known of this before.. but the doctors so many of them, just don't bother to advise enough...
> sad.
> beyond comprehension.. beyond measure
> Simon
> >
> > Not to get too off subject here but, I have had a few talks with Dr. Joe Glenmullen in the past. He's a good guy and his book gives a fair look at the situation.
> >
>
>Well first of all he was never my doctor. I just happened upon speaking with him a few times and it is kind of a private matter. So, I can't say what we talked about, but what I can say is that he is a rather pleasant man who wrote a book.
As far as insights go... I guess I have just one: he both believes in and practices what he wrote, there are no empty ideals. And thus his book is real and not just a bunch of b*llshit.
Anyway I hope a gave a satisfactory answer. Took me almost an hour to figure out what to say; hopefully now whoever reads this understands the positive message I am trying to convey.
Oh, and New England is never a dull place.
Posted by oneffexortoo on February 25, 2006, at 23:23:11
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by fenix on February 20, 2006, at 20:00:44
Why DOES this happen anyway? Why do some people get MORE depressed.. or have other "scary", "weird" feelings they didnt have even when depressed?
> > > Interesting... Fenix
> > can you share any insights from your privilege to speak to Dr. Glenmullen..
> > If only his warnings had been better known to other doctors, but sadly, this information is sometimes just not of interest to us if we are not aware of risks..
> > I wish I had known of this before.. but the doctors so many of them, just don't bother to advise enough...
> > sad.
> > beyond comprehension.. beyond measure
> > Simon
> > >
> > > Not to get too off subject here but, I have had a few talks with Dr. Joe Glenmullen in the past. He's a good guy and his book gives a fair look at the situation.
> > >
> >
> >
>
> Well first of all he was never my doctor. I just happened upon speaking with him a few times and it is kind of a private matter. So, I can't say what we talked about, but what I can say is that he is a rather pleasant man who wrote a book.
>
> As far as insights go... I guess I have just one: he both believes in and practices what he wrote, there are no empty ideals. And thus his book is real and not just a bunch of b*llshit.
>
> Anyway I hope a gave a satisfactory answer. Took me almost an hour to figure out what to say; hopefully now whoever reads this understands the positive message I am trying to convey.
>
> Oh, and New England is never a dull place.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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