![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 101 to 125 of 143. Go back in thread:
Posted by dancingstar on February 17, 2006, at 10:09:00
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by Devastated Mother on February 17, 2006, at 3:00:26
DM,
When I stopped taking Effexor, I was very sick, realized for the first time that I had been ill for the past three years as a result of having taken Effexor, and was overall devastated, furious, and sick beyond all reason.
I found this site on Google and didn't realize that it wasn't exactly a free speech zone. There was no one that actually mentioned to me that they have these rules about how you are allowed to write, and I never understood what I was doing wrong; so I got banned from here a lot, which is fine, really; but what you have to say is important, and I want you to be able to speak as freely as possible. I hope you will take a second to read the rules that GG linked you to, DM, cause I personally do not want the same thing to happen to you. Your words are too precious and important to too many people that do a search for Effexor and read these boards.
Bebe
Posted by dancingstar on February 17, 2006, at 10:22:11
In reply to I beg to differ » lifetime, posted by linkadge on February 16, 2006, at 11:54:17
Link,
I have a question. In England, isn't the newest cautionary warning on Efexor (UK) for people under 30, not just teens? And if it is for people under 30, I have to wonder why it stops there. Why are we not in danger at 31 or 40?
Thanks,
Bebe
Posted by simon levane on February 17, 2006, at 10:30:58
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by Devastated Mother on February 17, 2006, at 3:00:26
To All... It is no wonder that there is a high passion here. In truth, those who have not experienced the loss of a child to suicide -- if you have children, THANK YOUR LUCKY STARS THAT YOU ARE NOT AMONG US .... Some parents have actually killed themselves as the final result of this loss.
when we such as DM and myself hear of these notions that we should have researched the drugs, or whatever expression was noted, it wounds us because in the case of DM, there is no way she could have known unless the family doctor had informed her and her family, and in my case, I had the naive belief that no one would prescribe a drug to my daughter that had this high risk without advising me.. and hearing the family doctor had said OK to the pharmacist,, neither of which explained the risk factors to me, nor did the consulting psychiatrist. How could a parent imagine that a drug had such risk?
I would now read every drug prescribed, but in my lifetime, people trusted physicians to do the right thing,, and we never would have imagined that a doctor would prescribe something harmful.
I had the mistaken notion that if three or four different doctors OK'd a drug, how could so many doctors be mistaken.. I have since realized that this happens, and it is because of poor doctor awareness of drug effects and because of their failure to sometimes look at overall medical histories or to share these adequately with other doctors. There is also a tendency for some doctors to simply "get rid" of difficult psychiatric patients without real concern for their future. I have seen this too.. It takes them off the hook but it does not serve the patient. There are appropriate ways for doctors to disengage while offering patients and family members directions for help.
I have paid for my mistake in pain that I would not want to wish on anyone. It never goes away.It is under the surface.. The guilt sometimes eats me up inside. I wish I had died the day my daughter had died. It would have been a whole lot easier.
The issue of the anti-depressants is about reasonable practices of medical care... There is enough literature to show that doctors over-prescribe and for some medications (Ritalin for example), it is altogether too easy for them to just prescribe the pill without consideration of the potential effects or impact. When I read DM's other child getting prescribed Effexor .. WOW.. it is so terrifying and nauseating as to make me want to throw up.. With all the info, this doctor could just say "oh, take this, it will make you feel better... " when the pain and the sadness is there for a reason, and managing this takes a real struggle and help, and compassion and understanding, NOT a drug to make one feel "better" by screwing up brain chemistry.
I would not argue against medication to help people when prescribed with care and with understanding of risks and of the bigger picture, but too often this does not happen..
That is what DM and I are talking about here.
If there is some passion here.. it was not bad language, but the frustration felt when there is either misunderstanding or a lack of understanding of what it really means to suffer the devastation of loss of a family member, and especially of a child when it was PREVENTIBLE....
I am now stuck with all the errors I made with my daughter, many of which happened as a result of her illness and the fact that it was never explained to me properly, and I struggled with her behaviours as she struggled with her life.
I have no doubt whatsoever from what I have read, that the drugs had a major contribution to her death, and most likely, the drugs are what killed her.
SL
> gardengirl,
>
> Fair enough. My intent was not to be uncivil. I will try to be more cautious in the way I express myself. Or leave the site, which may be a better way to go at some point.
>
> While I understand that people think that everyone should be well informed on drugs, the fact is that everyone is not. We all trust our doctors to some extent, and in this case trust was the farthest thing from what we should have done. We had no idea that the drug our son was taking could cause suicide, and I suppose we should have known. So it is our fault. OK.
>
> Perhaps I should share with you exactly how I found out about the danger of the drug. Another of my children lived in the same city as the one who died, and in the face of anxiety and pain over the loss of his dear brother, went to the same doctor for help. He had no history of depression, and in fact was not suffering from the same issues his brother had. He had simply had a great trauma in his life -- he had lost his brother. This doctor prescribed the same lovely effexor for him as well. When I was told this by my son, I questioned him about it, learned the name of the drug, went on the internet and read to my horror the side effects of the drug. The black box was right there for all to see, had we known to look. So I spoke with my other son, and convinced him to go back to the doctor and question the prescription. Her response to him was that this drug would take care of the symptoms. So, I begged my son to stop taking the drug and he did, after a great deal of cajoling on my part. Oh, and after a bizarre episode which was so out of character for him that it could only have been caused by the drug, which in part led to his losing his job. Of course, he then would not go to any doctor for help in his pain over the loss of his brother, so we are dealing with it alone. He is fine, no thanks to this doctor.
>
> So, there you have it. The education of DM. Who trusted a doctor and for trusting that doctor, lost a son.
>
>
> > > If you think your ridiculous words are helping anyone, you are seriously mistaken. ...>
> > > Can you understand this? Are we not being clear? Or is your soapbox too high?
> > >
> >
> > I realize this is a sensitive topic and that emotions can run high, but please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
> >
> > If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
> >
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
> >
> > Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should be directed to Admin and should of course themselves be civil.
> >
> > Regards,
> > gg acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
> >
>
>
Posted by dancingstar on February 17, 2006, at 10:39:26
In reply to Re: Please be civil » Devastated Mother, posted by simon levane on February 17, 2006, at 10:30:58
Oh, SL, how could you ever know that there was anything wrong? The drug is so over-prescribed! It isn't your fault!!! They made it sound so safe. When I took it, I was flat out promised that there were no side effects, none. The drug company barely acknowledged any until recently, and now the side effects are pouring out like crazy...far too late. They've known about these problems for years. I'm so sorry for your pain and wish that there were something that I could do.
Bebe
Posted by simon levane on February 17, 2006, at 10:47:52
In reply to Please be civil » lifetime, posted by gardenergirl on February 16, 2006, at 23:34:51
Certainly it is useful to research meds and so on. When my father had a heart attack and the cardiologist frightened him about getting a angiogram, and then basically insisted on "letting him decide what was best for him", I didn't even have the opportunity to present the overall situation to my father. I then researched the actual risk factors, and found a recent paper that clearly stated that the angiogram/angioplasty route was far better choice than doing nothing. When my father then expressed his concerns to me, I could tell him without any sense of worry that I was perhaps misinforming him.. He had the procedure and it saved his life. In my daughter's case, the pharmacist checked with the doctor about the dose, and the doctor verified this, so I had this elation that the drug was OK and I never thought I needed to second-guess two different doctors - a mental health specialist and my trusted family doctor... NEITHER OF THEM TOLD US OF THE RISK!!!!!!!
Now I would never take any medicine or give any medicine to a family member without asking about risks.. but in my daughter's case, I just would never have imagined a doctor to give her a medicine with risk and not tell us.. but that is what they did....
I am well educated and have a background in biology, and I trusted my family doctor.. but what about people who are not so well educated, and who need to trust their doctors.. That is why doctors are doctors.. otherwise, we should just go and ask for clinical tests and heal ourselves. It is no less incumbent on a doctor prescribing a drug than on a surgeon who needs to inform his patient fully, before they submit to surgery...... but it is also clear that we cannot trust the medical profession as we thought we could...
Today I spoke to someone who teaches Medical Ethics and his response to the issue of accountability of prescribing drugs was that the pharmacist should be the person accountable for risks as the dispenser. I disagreed with him and because he is actually teaching medical students, I told him that it is the doctor who writes the prescription is ultimately responsible, not the pharmacist. The role of the pharmacist is to control drugs and to ensure that there is no accidental prescription of drugs that may have combined reactions. Some larger pharmacy groups provide literature with the medicine for the patient or family to read. I did not read this insert as I felt so re-assured by the fact that the pharmacist had delayed the prescription to check with the doctor. I later learned that this was totally cursory and the doctor just said "yes" without even knowing of the risk himself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is a huge issue here about accountability and care of patients, and of proper sharing of medical records.
I have paid a terrible price for my notion that doctors are trustworthy and care about their patients. I trusted the doctor and I really believed he did care, but he trusted the fact that a specialist had recommended Effexor without bothering to check, and the specialist did a very superficial medical history because she didn't have a proper summary from the GP.
and me.... stupid me... I just could not have imagined that they would prescribe something dangerous to my daughter..
If there ever was an impossibly difficult lesson in life.. there it is..
If I deserve to be crucified, well, I have been in the pain of missing my only child.. my beloved daughter.. troubled as she was, I needed to have her healthy and alive and to find a way to a good life for herself... not be be in the grave at the age of 20...
Simon
> > there maybe a parent intelligent enough to question and read before blindly accepting and proceeding just because a doctor said something.
>
> Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
>
> If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
> Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should be directed to Admin and should of course themselves be civil.
>
> Regards,
> gg acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
>
Posted by dancingstar on February 17, 2006, at 11:55:26
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by simon levane on February 17, 2006, at 10:47:52
Please forgive me for the intrusion, SL. I think the problem is very complex. The reports upon which the decisions to prescribe these drugs are often based on three- to six-month studies, and it is my impression after reading hundreds of hours of material, that at least the manufacturer of Effexor was aware that things changed after that period of time. The results may be very different if there were more studies published using a one- two- or three-year time frame.
In my own case, it wasn't until I had taken Effexor for three to four months that I began to become very, very sleepy and in outrageous pain for no reason that I could think of, and it got worse as time went on.
Recently, I found out that since I stopped taking Effexor, though I take excellent care of my health, my entire endocrine system is out of balance, and virtually all of my hormones are quite low, my adrenals, thyroid, etc. I never even took Effexor for depression in the first place, but originally for back pain and to give me energy!
After doing a lot of reading, though I am admittedly not a medical professional nor a scientist, I have come to think that the way that Effexor works is to force certain areas of the body to work harder; thereby possibly putting pressure on other areas, causing them to become depleted. After a while, for many people, again, in my opinion, it seems like the whole process stops working properly, and it can cause severe depression among other serious problems.
But this is just my guess, and I would like for someone with a true and honest chemical background to examine my theory more closely.
Posted by ed_uk on February 17, 2006, at 14:21:03
In reply to Re: I beg to differ » linkadge, posted by dancingstar on February 17, 2006, at 10:22:11
Hi Bebe
>In England, isn't the newest cautionary warning on Efexor (UK) for people under 30, not just teens? And if it is for people under 30, I have to wonder why it stops there.
There is no such warning. Effexor is approved for use in those over the age of 18.
Regards
Ed
Posted by simon levane on February 17, 2006, at 14:36:56
In reply to Re: Please be civil » simon levane, posted by dancingstar on February 17, 2006, at 11:55:26
This is not an intrusion DancingStar.. Your sharing your experience helps others to see the risks involved. My daughter had been on Effexor XL since mid March and she killed herself in May one day after her dosage had been increased from 150 mgm to 300 mgms.
I tried to control her medications, and the last time I saw her alive was the night before when I handed her the two capsules. I left early for work the next day.. She apparently had an anxiety attack the next day and had called her mother (we are divorced), but I was not aware of this.
It is not an easy story to tell. She was troubled for a long time. She had a very serious personality disorder, but I was just too close up to what was happening and coping with her behaviours... she had Borderline Personality Disorder, and I was truly ignorant of this disorder... the doctors gave a vague explanation of what it meant and I just took what they said ..... I wish I had researched it in detail, but it simply did not seem life threatening, and it was as it was, and she was my daughter alive, doing her thing.. asking for things.. interacting with us, looking after her cats, --- just our life as it was imperfect, but it was our life.
She showed signs of her illness since she was 8 or 9 years old, but at that age it looked more to be her unique personality, her high spirit, her wish for attention, and her singleminded attitude about many things.. By the time she was 12, we faced serious problems..
My point is that we were not able get the kind of responsible care for her that she needed. She fell into bad contacts, and she kept things hidden and she was not trustworthy (I anguish over that still... I WANTED to trust her, but I could not. and I realize now how distant I was from understanding what was happening in her head. What she did not need was to have access to prescription drugs such as Ritalin or to be put on a risky anti-depressant without us realizing the risk. so many doctors gave her the Ritalin on the face of her presenting herself as a credible person (her skill at acting this as a lie), when they should not have been prescribing the ritalin without checking her medical history. I think she was deeply ashamed of her drug addiction though she used every wile she could to get drugs, and I simply did not understand what was happening though I called doctors and told them.. and they were too ignorant to advise us to get her into a drug rehab program.
At end, the drugs overcame her.. and she played out her imaginations about suicide in the subway in an impulse act.. not sure..... but I hear so many ancedotal reports of people feeling suicidal on Effexor.. and the ritalin did not help..
Had the medical system been better, this should not have happened..
so many victims now.. me, her sad mother, her grandfather... we are the walking wounded and the wound will never ever heal.....
SL> Please forgive me for the intrusion, SL. I think the problem is very complex. The reports upon which the decisions to prescribe these drugs are often based on three- to six-month studies, and it is my impression after reading hundreds of hours of material, that at least the manufacturer of Effexor was aware that things changed after that period of time. The results may be very different if there were more studies published using a one- two- or three-year time frame.
>
> In my own case, it wasn't until I had taken Effexor for three to four months that I began to become very, very sleepy and in outrageous pain for no reason that I could think of, and it got worse as time went on.
>
> Recently, I found out that since I stopped taking Effexor, though I take excellent care of my health, my entire endocrine system is out of balance, and virtually all of my hormones are quite low, my adrenals, thyroid, etc. I never even took Effexor for depression in the first place, but originally for back pain and to give me energy!
>
> After doing a lot of reading, though I am admittedly not a medical professional nor a scientist, I have come to think that the way that Effexor works is to force certain areas of the body to work harder; thereby possibly putting pressure on other areas, causing them to become depleted. After a while, for many people, again, in my opinion, it seems like the whole process stops working properly, and it can cause severe depression among other serious problems.
>
> But this is just my guess, and I would like for someone with a true and honest chemical background to examine my theory more closely.
>
>
Posted by linkadge on February 17, 2006, at 18:37:09
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » linkadge, posted by lifetime on February 16, 2006, at 21:10:19
>While I cannot do anything to save or help those >parents whose children have past there maybe a >parent intelligent enough to question and read >before blindly accepting and proceeding just >because a doctor said something.
I think you are missing the point here. Trying to blame these "devastated" parents even more by suggesting that they were blind is very insensitive in my oppinion. The only reason these parents were "blind" was because of the current state of drug laws.This is not about patients *chosing* to make uninformed decisions. This is about the fact that information is not readily available, and that it is actively downplayed by drug companies in order to maximize drug profits.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on February 17, 2006, at 18:43:06
In reply to Re: I beg to differ » linkadge, posted by dancingstar on February 17, 2006, at 10:22:11
You could be right. And the question is very valid. Why would a drug cause suicidal impulses in children but not adults? There are studies suggesting that the drugs can induce similar reactions in adults.
I remember reading an adult study of *normal* vaulenteers feeling more suicidal after taking active SSRI over placebo. Similar studies have been shown in adults taking paxil.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on February 17, 2006, at 18:51:11
In reply to Re: Please be civil » Devastated Mother, posted by simon levane on February 17, 2006, at 10:30:58
I agree. Psychiatry tries so hard to put the blame back on the patient. Their drugs are never to blame. All of their reasoning goes back to blame the patient. Maybe the patient had an underlying bipolar disorder. Maybe it was the depression that caused the suicide. The list goes on.
Scientitst are developing animal models of some of the funky behavior that these drugs can induce. If this behavior is significant enough that *multi-million* dollar studies can be initiated to see why the drug is inducing rapid-cycling etc.. then why on earth isn't that money going into protecting patients from the drugs in the first place ?
www.neurotransmitter.net has a whole page devoted to research on SSRI induced mania.
It just doesn't make sence to me.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on February 17, 2006, at 18:53:44
In reply to Re: Please be civil » simon levane, posted by dancingstar on February 17, 2006, at 10:39:26
My doctor told me that the Effexor induced increase in blood pressure was not a fault of the drug. B.S. I know that after taking the drug my blood pressure increased significantly. Some doctors think they are doing the patient good by lying to them, or by downplaying the side effects, in hopes that they'll take the drug and it workes. But when a doctor downplays a side effect to the point that the patient may kill themselves because they feel that the increased suicidality could have nothing to do with the drug. That is wrong.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on February 17, 2006, at 18:58:50
In reply to Re: Please be civil » simon levane, posted by dancingstar on February 17, 2006, at 11:55:26
I think you are right. If you are depressed because of adrenal exhaustion, taking an SNRI like effexor will boost the little norepinephrine left that your body is producing, but this is hardly getting to the root of the problem. In some ways they can really work like stimulants.
Linkadge
Posted by simon levane on February 17, 2006, at 19:00:46
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by lifetime on February 16, 2006, at 14:37:32
Dear Herb..
I am sorry that my response is out of sequence in the thread. I find it difficult to answer you. The difficulty is that after the fact, I can see so much that I should have done differently, and I can see my own ignorance, and i can see if I had researched my daughter's illness, I could have helped her better, and the last year and 8 months since her death in the subway, I have been living an unending nightmare of regret and guilt and of loss. Perhaps you understand a lot in helping managing your wife's treatment, and it is very true that some adolescents and young adults complete suicide without any warning or indication.
I have heard of cases first hand in which a teenager had attempted suicide and was taken to a hospital, then released to her parent's care, and succeeded in completing suicide a few weeks later -- imagine the mother's broken heart to experience this..
My daughter was ill for 8 years and we went through periods when she was going to school and doing well, and had many happy moments, but we never had the kind of support and education that was needed, and we depended on the guidance of the medical caregivers.
I have written at some length of our experience in losing our child. My experience in losing my daughter as i was a single parent. There is a huge evidence and doctors who speak against the indiscriminant use of anti-depressants and of ritalin.. The anecdotal reports are even more compelling when someone writes of a specific experience taking one of these drugs and feeling suicidal... How can anyone discount this???????????????
I was a fool in hindsight, but I trusted our GP and sadly, he trusted the psychiatrist specialist and neither of them warned us of the risk. On top of this, I had the pharmacist delay giving us the medication, so there was a presumed consultation with the family doctor who confirmed the dosage and was not cognitant of the risk because he hadn't read the warnings that were 5 YEARS OLD.
There are issues here of accountability, and of proper assessment of risk. I sat with my daughter meeting a specialist who made me feel as if things were not so bad... that she had some issues that needed medication and this would help and in time she would get better, but she was dealing with symptoms from her area of clinical research specialty and she NEVER gave us an indication of the risk or that my daughter should be monitored and what to do if she expressed suicidal ideation.. none of that..
My daughter spoke of suicide sometimes because she was fascinated by Kurt Cobain's death and Marilyn Monroe's death - she wrote an essay on this in school.. she had me watch Girl Interrupted with her, and I thought she identified with the main character.. and thought she had taken wisdom from the tragedy of that movie.. thought she was beyond thinking of taking her life.. She liked to push my "buttons" and i worried if I reacted with too much concern to an adolescent threat -- it would raise the ante..... Dear God!!! i was trained by a parent support group not to take the hook of suicidal threat cause lots of kids may use that as a lever... how wrong they were!!!
There is a disbelief that your child could do such a thing.. No one can fathom that.. imagine it.. I could not.. now I live it..
The bottom line, Herb, is that we must keep our children safe.. and no one should put them at risk... This means that drugs should be dispensed with care and caution, and that medical records should be properly shared, and parents must be educated and involved in the care of our children.. our at risk children.
I trusted our GP because he had always been a good doctor and had always handled the usual medical things with care and thoughtfulness, but this was out of his scope, and he missed so many clues that we were telling him.. and he took on the responsibility of prescribing a drug about which he knew almost NOTHING.... and even at face with a concerned pharmacist he still didn't look it up, but relied on the specialist who had recommended it, and she was ignorant of my daughter's full medical history and so full of her own area of specialization that she even missed the fact that Ritalin can cause symptoms of OCD and has its own risks...
My daughter also contributed to this by not telling us the truth about her addiction to Ritalin.
At end, it cost us her life.. All of us.. her, and me and all who loved her.....
And it cost DM her son's life.. Her wonderful son who hardly had a trouble, but was prescribed the drug without the doctor letting DM know of the potential risk...
In both cases, the risk was not explained....
DM is without fault or blame, but I am not so free because I should have researched this, but I was duped by the impression that there was no significant risk.. and I went home that night with the new meds and gave my daughter the two capsules not realizing it would be the last time i would ever see her alive..
And the answer to all of this "Depressed people kill themselves".. how simplistic and distorted..
I am reminded of a drug that was used to cure severe acne.. and there was a risk factor of about 1 in a 100,000 for anaplastic anemia.. totally incurable.. so in a nation of 250,000,000 with who knows how many kids with bad acne.. that drug could potentially kill hundreds of kids every year.. It was removed from the market.. and you know what? Few doctors ever told parents or patients of that risk. Would you give you kid a drug that could kill them to cure acne.... ??????
sure a few million kids used it without any side effect, but would you have risked your child's life? It is the same thing with these anti-depressants. Had I known this, I would have been home that night and my daughter would likely still be alive now as i sit here and write this pain out.........
Due diligence.. accountability... proper education.. not this lackadaisical attitude even after the fact, when it has cost the lives of our children and we live in the agony of pain, and some of us have not only the loss and the missing of our children, but the guilt that we could have done better had we been wiser and less flawed...
that is the reality...
Simon
>
Dear Mr. Levane,
>
> I can emphasize with your feelings and express my condolences at the tragedy that has befallen your family and others from the seriousness of mood disorders. The fact is from my experiences and knowledge no mood disorder should ever be taken lightly and what at one moment may seem trivial could easily and rapidly escalate into suicidal ideations and the successful attempt at taking one’s own life.
>
> Whether or not you are aware there are many successful adolescent suicides without the patient ever being on any medication and/or treatment. While I am knowledgeable from my readings that it is thought that in some instances the use of medications maybe a causation or contributing factor to increasing suicidal ideations the fact still remains there is no definitive correlations and many conflicting research reports.
>
> While I cannot undo that which has taken place I can share my experiences, research and knowledge without giving any advice. If one finds it comforting and enabling to take legal action then do as one sees fit. While I still face the possibility of my spouse taking her life one day I continue to advocate for education. Mood disorders should be taken seriously. Mood disorders are potentially fatal. Medications to treat these disorders should be taken seriously. Awareness that medications have potential side-effects should be taken seriously. Awareness that medications not only have potential side-effects but can lead to death also applies to medications other than psychotropics. For that matter one should be aware that over the counter drugs such as aspirin can kill too.
>
> You speak about “risk management.” Even as a youngster I heard an old saying when one takes drugs, “There is no free ride as there is a price to pay in one form or another.” I’ve been handling “risk management” for over 42 years in collaboration with doctors, good doctors and more importantly better doctors. In our travails we’ve encountered doctors who think their deities and others that didn’t listen. We simply made informed decisions and moved on to another physician. While many doctors heed the call “TO DO NO HARM” others are truly compassionate and caring and do make their best efforts to relieve the angish, pain and suffering of their patients suffering from horrific mood disorders and go above their call of duty to help. We have been fortunate to have had a number of those physicians attending to my spouse. While there are no guarantees when treating mood disorders one doctor in particular went beyond the bounds of the drug company specifications which I cited elsewhere relating to mega dosing of Effexor XR. The point I am making is the doctor suggested, we asked questions, we researched and made a reasonably informed decision regardless of the fact that this particular doctor was an M.D., professor, lecturer, researcher, published researcher and noted psychopharmacologist and authority. As a former DBSA facilitator I’ve listened to thousands of personal experiences of horror stories, tragedies and triumphs but we’ve always continued to encourage education, self-advocacy, support networks and systems and the like. There are no easy answers to what works or why these things happen but what we can do is to share our experiences and knowledge so hopefully others can benefit from those experiences both bad and good.
>
> I would hope from your writings and that of “Devastated Mother” too that other parents reading this thread take the time to educate themselves quickly, to maintain lines of communication with one’s child, to try and discuss the situation with the attending physician and most importantly carefully observe any changes in the patient’s mood state especially when first initiating and/or changing any treatment regimen. I might also point out that it is not unheard of having to go through numerous treatment options and/or combinations of options in order to obtain a favorable response and/or outcome.
>
> Warmly,
> Herb
> VNSdepression.com
>
>
> .
>
Posted by linkadge on February 17, 2006, at 19:14:32
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on February 17, 2006, at 19:00:46
I don't think I have bipolar disorder. I mean people who know me now (off drugs) think that I am stable as a rock. I had been prescribed effexor and ritalin at one time (a few yrs back). Let me tell you, it was a roller coaster from hell. The effexor greatly enhanced the stimulant effect of the ritalin. Mid-day my vision would be so bright that I can say I probably know what crack cocoaine feels like. By the end of the day I would crash so low it was unbelievable. I could bearly move. Sometimes I thought I went blind because when the drugs wore off I could barley see anything in the room. Usually I would literally go into my closit and curl up in a ball and cry and shake untill the low started to subside.
It was scarry stuff, and in hindsight I am lucky to have survived. But all I can tell you is that don't have a doubt in your mind that the drugs can influence things. During those lows, the ways that my brain would think of ways to end it all was scarry stuff. I thought about jumping infront of traffic, downing a bottle of tranquilizers, shooting myself at the foot of a bridge, the list goes on and on and on.
I would not doubt for a minaute that an effexor ritalin wouldn't have the potential to set one up for some MAJOR LOWS.
Linkadge
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 17, 2006, at 19:32:33
In reply to Re: Please be civil » Devastated Mother, posted by simon levane on February 17, 2006, at 10:30:58
"I had the naive belief that no one would prescribe a drug to my daughter that had this high risk without advising me.. and hearing the family doctor had said OK to the pharmacist,, neither of which explained the risk factors to me, nor did the consulting psychiatrist. How could a parent imagine that a drug had such risk?"
Simon, please do not think you were alone in being naive. We all have to trust doctors to some extent, but I must agree with you that since I now can very well imagine that a doctor might prescribe a drug that had such a risk, It will be a long time before I trust doctors again for any reason.
I really wish I could do something to diminish your pain. But the fact is, I know as well as you do that nothing can really help, except some time, and even that.....
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 17, 2006, at 19:45:45
In reply to Re: I beg to differ, posted by linkadge on February 17, 2006, at 18:43:06
Linkadge,
Actually, both my son and Simon's daughter were 20, which I believe would be considered adult by these standards, but the reaction was exactly what is considered a risk for "children". I personally think there may be predispositions that are unrelated to age.Thank you for your support.
> You could be right. And the question is very valid. Why would a drug cause suicidal impulses in children but not adults? There are studies suggesting that the drugs can induce similar reactions in adults.
>
> I remember reading an adult study of *normal* vaulenteers feeling more suicidal after taking active SSRI over placebo. Similar studies have been shown in adults taking paxil.
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
Posted by linkadge on February 17, 2006, at 21:05:23
In reply to Re: I beg to differ, posted by Devastated Mother on February 17, 2006, at 19:45:45
I am currently 23 ... I think. But I would have been 19 or 20 when I was on effexor.
Linkadge
Posted by dancingstar on February 18, 2006, at 1:58:11
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Kneeko on February 16, 2006, at 5:54:03
Once the drug has hurt one as badly as many of us have been hurt -- and many have been hurt so much worse than I have -- we don't want to see anyone else ever again damaged as a result of having taken it. Even one lost life is too many. One life in pain as a result of having taking a drug that unknowingly harms that person is too many when the drug company knows the possibilites of these dangers and fails to adequately warn the the public and implies that their drug is inherently safe, no matter what good that drug may do for others. And who even knows what dangers these others will face down the line if the whole truth is not being told about the dangers of a drug in the first place?
If Effexor is to remain on the market at all, in my opinion its use should be strictly limited, and patients and their families warned about how dangerous it can be. As it stands now, it is being prescribed by all sorts of doctors throughout the medical community and handed out somewhat freely.
Posted by lifetime on February 18, 2006, at 2:01:39
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on February 17, 2006, at 19:00:46
Dear Simon,
I would like to try to make several points perfectly clear. The first being I am not faulting you or anyone for what was done or not done. I feel for you and I can empathize with the tragedy and the sense that you believe you could have done something. The fact is, from my personal experiences and knowledge; one cannot prevent a determined individual from taking his/her own life. My spouse has attempted suicide seven times and while I may be more knowledgeable about depression than most folks I could not prevent those attempts. As I stated previously, I was a former DBSA facilitator. I also lost a number of close friends to suicide as well as group participants who suffered from mood disorders. In many instances I (we) were aware the individual(s) were experiencing suicidal ideations. In several instances we acted by having the person hospitalized in order to intervene (in the state of Florida there is the Baker Act which allows the individual to be confined for 72 hours of observation, against their will, if the individual is deemed a threat to his or her self or anyone else) and yet some of these same individuals were unfortunately successful in their later attempts.
I am not trained or knowledgeable in how to lend support to those who are grieving under these unusual circumstances other than to express my sincere condolences and to share some of my personal experiences. Certainly, if you knew you could’ve acted and tried to intervene but the point I am trying to make is there are times when one knows as I do and yet I have been powerless to prevent the act. I would only share with you my belief that beating oneself up is counterproductive and while we all appear to see faults in the system, doctors, medications, treatments, ourselves etc I prefer to take what I consider a positive and more productive approach and that is to try and share and educate especially since I am still an active support person and health care advocate to my spouse. I no longer participate in many of my former advocacy and support rolls quite simply because it just took too much out of me so I now spend some of my time sharing and advocating through websites and message forums of this kind.
I shall also add that my brother-in-law also committed a slow suicide through the use of drugs and alcohol and yet all were powerless to prevent the act.
I am also not here defending anyone’s physician. I am here to state from my knowledge they are not Gods and also from my knowledge they are all not equally knowledgeable. From my personal experiences many doctors do not spend equal time studying case histories etc and they have been known to make mistakes and in some instances fatal mistakes.
One last point I would like to make. Knowing that which I do about depression I try to share with those not as knowledgeable what I believe is the unfortunate circumstances that when treating depression the reality is that it is in my opinion a “Trail and Error Approach to Wellness.” Since each individual responds differently there is absolutely no way of knowing in advance which will or will not respond to any medication and/or therapy and the extent or severity to which any individual will experience side-effects and/or contraindications. To which I shall also add from my research the many conflicting research studies on medications and various therapies as I have already cited for the other young man. I also noted the fact that while there were several tragic results attributed to Effexor XR on this forum my spouse had a successful period using very high dosages of the drug without side-effects and was also able to withdraw without any side-effects also contrary to other experiences shared here. I would also add that over the years we have been through the pharmacopeia of medications trying to maintain my spouse’s wellness. While some medications proved beneficial eventually she was refractory to most. While my spouse has had some truly bad experiences with several medications I do not condemn or advocate for the banning of any drug simply because I am also aware others have benefited. This same approach applies to ECT. While there are individuals advocating for banning the therapy I oppose such a stance simply because I am aware it benefited my spouse and others and therefore I personally prefer to educate by way of sharing our experiences and knowledge.
So again I share with you my condolences knowing that even if you did everything correctly you still may have been powerless to prevent the situation.
I wish you peace and only good and pleasant memories of your beloved daughter.
Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 18, 2006, at 4:08:03
In reply to Re: Please be civil » gardenergirl, posted by lifetime on February 17, 2006, at 0:07:16
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 18, 2006, at 4:19:38
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » lifetime, posted by linkadge on February 17, 2006, at 18:37:09
> missing the point
> Trying to blame these "devastated" parents
> very insensitive in my oppinion.As gg said, this is a sensitive topic and emotions can run high, but please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused.
Please also don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by simon levane on February 18, 2006, at 16:37:57
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » simon levane, posted by lifetime on February 18, 2006, at 2:01:39
Thanks for your response Herb...
While I do agree with you that there are many cases in which a person who intends suicide finally succeeds, and there are also cases in which someone completes suicide without warning -- there are also so many cases in which our loved ones could have been saved if only we had known or had better education about suicide risk. I don't recall anyone suggesting that a particular anti-depressant drug be removed from the market. Even the recognized activist researchers in this this area who have been warning about these drugs for years, such as David Healy and Joseph Glenmullen, have never said that the drugs should be banned. I don't think it is a question of whether these drugs are useful for many patients in a carefully supervised plan of care. Glenmullen wrote a recent book called "The Anti-depressant Solution" in which he describes the risks that are so often not told to patients. Healey had an appointment to the University of Toronto in Canada to head a department for psychiatric research, but as he spoke up about Prozac, and one of the key funders of research at the University was one of the major drug manufacturers, his appointment was cancelled. He sued and won a substantial settlement (though part of the settlement was that the details were kept private - not unusual in such cases). It is generally known that this had to do with anti-depressants and it seems that the university did not want to lose the funding.
I know of a friend's spouse who is on a low dose of Effexor that helps her a lot, but she is not an adolescent, young adult, and in her case, her family was kept well appraised of the drug in terms of benefit and risk.
I cannot help but feel guilty and regretful that I did not research my daughter's illness, that I did not ask more questions about her medications. As I wrote, this omission on my part has cost me a price beyond imagination in sorrow and pain.
I can only forgive myself in the context of how difficult it was coping.. and being in the centre of things with my child, I could not see the risk. It is very easy to be upset with a young adult child who is acting out in a variety of ways. I was in the typical "sandwich" generation between an elderly parent and a troubled young adult child. All roads led to me. I also cannot excuse myself for my own flaws.. and we all have flaws, but thank goodness most people do not experience such an outcome.
I think that the main point that both DM and I are making is that the medical system failed our children and failed us, and it is clear, has failed a lot of people in the area of psychiatric drugs.
That is the point we are making here. So many mistakes... Devastated Mom lost her beloved son because her family doctor seemed to prescribe Effexor in a truly lackadaisical manner.. imagine the doctor saying, "Oh,, you feel down... here, take this.. make you feel better. No harm" and in the case of my daughter so many many mistakes of care... too many to write here.
When I learned that the warnings about Effexor have been on the label in some manner since 1999, it made me want to scream. And at end, all of these doctors basically just shrug it off by the classical justification "Depressed people kill themselves" and that excuses the possible risk of the anti-depressant.
Both DM's son and my daughter are classical cases of impulse acts caused by anti-depressants, because both of them were kids who had a lot to live for. Neither of us can prove that it was the Effexor, but if there was a risk for DM's son, then his family should have been told and could have been told with his permission. In my daughter's case, the multiplicity of errors are so many that I don't know what to say. The only way this can be prevented in the future is through proper education of doctors, of family, of all the caregivers. I just lived in this illusion that my beloved child could not do this to herself or to me. I may have been upset at her often, but I was there .... and I needed help to cope with her, and if there was anything that I needed most of all, it was an understanding of the risk, and that the medical caregivers themselves had properly shared her medical history to help us help her. Instead, everyone just minimized and gave her little attention, and I could not believe that she would do this. Someone recently asked me how I was doing and I told him that I lived in agony. He said... "well life must go on".. and I said to him.. "could you imagine one of your children taking their own life?"... When I said that, I could see his face scrunch up and it told me that even the thought of that was so horrible that he wanted to block it out.
I cannot write of this as well as those many concerned professionals in health care and social work. Some doctors just prescribe these drugs without much consideration of risk. Ritalin is another case that is hugely overprescribed to "manage" kids... Most of the kids on this drug probably do not need it.
My daughter's case could read in a text book about all the wrong things that should NOT be done to look after an adolsecent with Borderline Personality Disorder. Her death was the outcome of risk factors that were simply not explained to me or her mother. The Effexor was just the tipping point that allowed the total risk factors to kill my child. But the case of DM's son and the anecdotal testaments of those who have used this drug speak so loudly about doctors stopping and thinking before they prescribe these drugs. I heard a psychiatrist justify his prescribing the drug by stating he gave it to hundreds of people without any harmful effects. Sounds so easy unless one becomes the exception case - and loses a 20 year old daughter to suicide.
Her life plays over in my head and I struggle to somehow live, because I have the loss and the pain and torment of my own stupidity and how I duped myself into thinking she was not at risk.
I could have researched her illness and kept better track myself, but I simply was fooled by the lack of concern of doctors,a statement by the specialist that with the Effexor she would be OK and my own angst about her behaviours. You see, for me in my day to day interaction with her, she was not really mentally ill, she just was my kid who was troubled and who always played me to get what she wanted, and used to laugh about how she could persuade me to get what she wanted. What I didn't realize is that she had become an addict, and the medical caregivers didn't see it either when they should have known if they had been properly educated in the drugs they were prescribing. The risk therefore was multiplied, and all who knew her truly believe that her suicide was an impulse act facilitated by the Effexor and her drug abuse. Yes, doctors are human of course, and they are prone to errors as well, but there must be a basic standard of care that seems to be missing. Proper advice to patients and family caregivers within the context of risk factors, and proper medical history disclosure to enable correct diagnosis. In the other medical specialties this seems to happen as so many of the procedures are based on solid scientific diagnostic evidence, but in the case of psychiatry, this is far from being the case. There needs to be more effort to develop diagnostics that are more than "guesswork" by one or other psychiatrist. And the knowledge of psychiatrists about treatment is also very suspect. This is all the more reason that psychiatric drugs should not be prescribed without a proper assessement and disclosure, and clear warnings about risks. This should not be left to chance. It is truly back to that essential medical principal "DO NO HARM".
Simon
Posted by dancingstar on February 18, 2006, at 16:53:57
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » lifetime, posted by simon levane on February 18, 2006, at 16:37:57
Beautifully written, Simon. Made me cry.
I know that the pain is still too fresh and hurts too badly to cope with doing much right now, but I hope that some day you will go on to help shed light on this problem so that other families can be helped. You are a smart, articulate, wise man, Simon, with a lot to give. Hang in there.
Posted by simon levane on February 18, 2006, at 17:06:30
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » lifetime, posted by linkadge on February 17, 2006, at 18:37:09
I fully agree with you Linkadge, but I think that Lifetime did not understand the implication of his post. I think he does understand that now, and did not mean hurt to us.
This is a learning process.. for me and DM and for other parents who have lost children to suicide, the penalty we have to live with is beyond comprehension. For DM, this was something completely out of the sky as if lightning had struck her son without warning. For me, it had years of complexity, but still, it should not have happened. Your sharing of your own experiences with both Effexor and Ritalin I hope serves to help others, and educate. You are lucky that you got through it as you stated.
We sure hope you are not using any drugs any more. I used to be a heavy smoker, and I stopped 15 years ago. One of the reasons was that I did not want my daughter to lose her father at a young age. I still am a non smoker in spite of everything. I could easily start again, but apart from the cost, it would be as if I was betraying my daughter cause I know she would not have wanted me to start again.
Simon> >While I cannot do anything to save or help those >parents whose children have past there maybe a >parent intelligent enough to question and read >before blindly accepting and proceeding just >because a doctor said something.
>
>
> I think you are missing the point here. Trying to blame these "devastated" parents even more by suggesting that they were blind is very insensitive in my oppinion. The only reason these parents were "blind" was because of the current state of drug laws.
>
> This is not about patients *chosing* to make uninformed decisions. This is about the fact that information is not readily available, and that it is actively downplayed by drug companies in order to maximize drug profits.
>
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> Linkadge
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