![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 69 to 93 of 143. Go back in thread:
Posted by simon levane on February 13, 2006, at 20:50:02
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on February 13, 2006, at 5:25:09
There is a website of a parent who lost his son to suicide, and he is very very active in trying to help prevent this from happening to others. I don't have the link here but will send it to you and post it here tomorrow..
Perhaps you may find a way to help others through this link. In our country there is an active survivor's advocacy group that contributes to educational material as well as actively lobbying in different ways to raise awareness. When I see all the available material that was there before my daughter's death and realize that all of her medical caregivers truly failed to educate us in the risks, it makes me sick.. That is the primary way to help prevent this from happening to others. To raise awareness and education. It is needed in the school system, among all General Practictioners and Psychiatrists as well, -- they are especially complacent as I see it. My daughter saw no less than 7 different pychiatrists and I myself met with most of them as well as seeing two myself, and not one of them truly educated me or my daughter's mother in the reality of risk nor in the risk of the specific drugs. GP's in walk in clinics are sometimes just too easy to prescribe drugs to patients without asking the patient to give a reference of a previous physician before they give them tranquillizers or other psychotropic drugs without knowing the real medical history. This verges on criminal negligence but is hard to prove. Sloppy life threatening medical incompetence. That needs to be stopped by having clear guidelines for medical care.
Simon,
> You have been experiencing this longer than I have. Any ideas on the most effective way to attempt to change this systemically? I think it may take some political lobbying, but I am not really sure where to start. I really would not want to see this happen to anyone else.
>
> Anyone else have ideas?
> -DM
Posted by linkadge on February 15, 2006, at 17:22:14
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on February 13, 2006, at 20:50:02
I don't want to sound harsh but having taken effexor, I can *definately* see how it could have pushed somebody over the edge. It made me agitated, fearfull, anxious, and caused insomnia. It increase my heartrate, and gave me a terrable inner restlessness (also known as akathesia). It made my mood swing, it made me irritable, it made me iscoalte myself, it made me paranoid. I lost my appetite on it, I even lost some hair. Most of all, It made me not give a shi* about my body, or my life.
I have taken many drugs, and effexor definately brough me within inches of shooting myself.
I don't mean to be so graphic, but I may be approximately your kids age, and if I am at all like the voice they never had. Maybe it helps some people, but the teenage brain is much different from the adult brain.
Linkadge
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 15, 2006, at 17:33:24
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » simon levane, posted by linkadge on February 15, 2006, at 17:22:14
When my son died, I prayed for a clear dream. I wanted desperately to know what in this world could have possibly brought him to this point. You must be a part of the answer to this request. Thank you for sharing. I am grateful that you were not taken from this life in the same way. Long life to you.
Once I started reading about Effexor, I soon realized that it had more to do with the drug than with his own issues, which he was handling in a reasonable way, from what I could see. This came out of nowhere for us, and I blame the doctor. Period. No other options.
Devastated Mother
Posted by linkadge on February 15, 2006, at 20:53:09
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on February 15, 2006, at 17:33:24
The scary part is that it was so difficult to distinguish how the drug was actually be making things worse.
The way I describe it to people is with one word. Intensity. When I took effexor, I still had all of the same problems, but they seemed so much more intense. It was hard to recognize that the effexor was actually making things worse, since the problems I had were still my same old problems, but it seemed like they had been magnified a million times. When I started to taper off (on my own) it slowly felt like a giant weight was starting to be lifted off my shoulders.
For a whole 2 months on it, my sleep was so fragmented. Nightmares, would wake me up every 10 minautes. I felt completely exhausted in the morning. It just felt like a bad trip that never ended. I was told that it was my depression kicking up and the solution ??? Up the dose!Doctors are just not sensitive to these kinds of reactions. They're taught in med school or whatever that these drugs help anxiety and make people happy. Doctors would laugh at me when I told them what I suspected.
Recently, the FDA has started to come to similar conclusions, at least I felt a sence of relief, in that yes, they are starting to acknowledge that the drugs may have potential to do such things. In my own hindsight, there was no question.
Linkadge
Posted by Kneeko on February 16, 2006, at 5:54:03
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by linkadge on February 15, 2006, at 20:53:09
Sorry about what happened. At this point it most be very easy to place the blame on the companies or the doctors. Please understand that these drugs do genuinely help some people, and taking it off the market very hurtful to alot of people who are dependent on this medication. There are warnings about what can potentially happen to subsets of people and these are risks we all take when he try to get better from depression. That doesnt make anyone bad, its just the risk you take.
Numerous drugs have lead to reactions and suicides, but to take them off of the market or blame the company would result in far greater suffering for hundreds of millions of people.
MAOI's for instance many people absolutely need them to have any hope at life, even though a small number of fatal reactions have been reported. Take this into account and may your son rest in peace.
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 16, 2006, at 7:04:01
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Kneeko on February 16, 2006, at 5:54:03
Whatever. You really don't understand my issue at all. Neither Simon nor I were warned to watch our children for increased suicidality. I am just suggesting that doctors have a responsibility to do, to actually do what is in the little black box. If you can't understand that............
Posted by lifetime on February 16, 2006, at 11:19:00
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on February 16, 2006, at 7:04:01
To those who have lost loved ones to mood disorders,
I happened upon this thread and read through with much interest. Although “Devastated Mother” stated, “I wish people would just stop saying how sorry they are. It is so irrelevant” I can state from my own opinion that nothing could be worse in my mind than to have any loved child predecease a parent.
As a very long-time support person, caregiver, health care advocate to my spouse and activist I would like to suggest some positive approaches to some very tradgic situations. The first and most important approach which I advocate for is the education of the patient and his/her support person(s) to make informed and un-coerced medical decisions in collaboration with one’s trusted, caring, compassionate, knowledgeable and licensed health care practitioner(s). While I often state when a physician hangs out their shingle to practice it does not state whether he/she graduated first or last in the class and the fact there are doctors, good doctors and better doctors.
The point I wish to make without necessarily offending anyone reading this posting is that the onus of responsibility, in my opinion, still remains with the patient and/or his/her support persons to be reasonably educated before embarking upon any medical ventures and/or the ingesting of any chemicals (medications, vitamins, minerals etc) or the utilization of any therapies and/or treatments.
The so called science of the brain is in its infancy and from my research and readings there are numerous theories as opposed to definitive answers from the professional community as it relates to the various mood disorders. I am dismayed by some of the postings for there thoughtlessness to the fact that many individuals are being helped utilizing the very same medications and/or treatments abhored by others. My spouse at one time benefitted from the use of Effexor XR. In fact at one point she was utilizing a daily megadose of 900 mg per day but the refractory syndrome reoccured and we went on to research and utilize other treatment options. The point which I want to make here is that we were reasonably knowledgeable and informed before making any decision to preceed and I being a reasonably knowledgeable support person carefully monitored and observed her mood state as I have done through these many years. Mood disorders in and of itself are potentially life threatening without any kind of intervention so to just throw out and condemn a treatment option that may very well be beneficial for someone else is unconscionable to me. In fact, I am an advocate for all treatment options for the use in mood disorders providing one is educated before hand to the side-effects and potential risks. There is also an old adage which I shall paraphrase, “Ignorance in the eyes of the law is no excuse.”
To those family members having lost a loved one to any of these disorders you have my sincere and heartfelt condolences while I continue in my efforts to keep my spouse alive knowing that one cannot prevent a determined individual from committing suicide and also maintaining my advocacy and activism. So while the choices to treat these illnesses are somewhat limited they are the best we have at the moment also knowing the fact that no two individuals respond exactly the same to medications, treatments, therapies, surgeries etc what one can do is to advocate for education as opposed to condemnation.
Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com.
Posted by linkadge on February 16, 2006, at 11:54:17
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by lifetime on February 16, 2006, at 11:19:00
I would completely argue against that opinion. We live in a society of accountability. It is not the responsability of the patient to find out weather or not a drug has the potential to induce sucidial thoughts or feelings, especially if a drug company knows of such possabilities. The same thing goes for vitamins, if a company knew their product was dangerous, then it would be their repsonsability to make people *fully* aware)
If a drug company has known for a while that their drug can and does induce such feelings within a subset of people, then it is the drug companies responsability to make the patient fully aware of such issues.
Its not as if a plummer can come into your home, install a broken toilate and say, sorry Lady, you should have researched me more fully.
I couldn't disagree more. I agree with Devastated mother, in that the warnings are simply insufficant, period. More has to be done.
(Ie in Brittain, doctors have been told NOT to prescribe such drugs to anyone under the age of 18. Now that is the kind of action should be in motion, IMHO, thank you very much)
Linkadge
Posted by simon levane on February 16, 2006, at 12:24:22
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Kneeko on February 16, 2006, at 5:54:03
This is not about whether a drug helps some people or not. It is about risk management. If you have cancer that could kill you, you would be prepared to risk your life with a treatment that could save your life if there was no better option. The problem is that doctors prescribe drugs so damned easily without realizing the potential consequences. Any thinking doctor who would have reviewed my daughter's medical history with knowledge of risk of the drugs, would have advised us clearly of the risk so we could have been watchful and acted with that awareness. Instead we were clueless that she was walking along a dangerous cliff (in my daughter's case, it was the subway). It is the doctor's responsibility TO DO NO HARM.. and that means advising properly of risk. When they do not advise properly of risk, then the moral responsibility is on them... It is not easy for someone to sue a doctor after the fact because if someone is depressed or has a history of suicide attempts, then the proof of whether the drug did it or not is impossible. But reading the experiences of others and knowing my own tragedy tells the tale of it. Why didn't these doctors warn us!!!!!!!!!!!! DM lost her son when this should not have happened. If she had known, then her family would have been on alert. I did not know.. I had an acting up daughter who was very ill and I tried to set limits, and was upset, not realizing she was so much at risk.
It is not as simple as "the drugs help most people" because those of us who lost our children can never truly forgive the failure of proper medical care.. Our family doctor defended himself by saying "I don't read the details of every drug I prescribe" and others perhaps did not want to give the warning for the fear of someone NOT taking the drug.. Had I known.. if only I had known.. if only,, if only..........
would a doctor have been more careful with his own child..... if so, then he/she should have been JUST AS CAREFUL with OUR CHILDREN...
Simon> Sorry about what happened. At this point it most be very easy to place the blame on the companies or the doctors. Please understand that these drugs do genuinely help some people, and taking it off the market very hurtful to alot of people who are dependent on this medication. There are warnings about what can potentially happen to subsets of people and these are risks we all take when he try to get better from depression. That doesnt make anyone bad, its just the risk you take.
>
>
> Numerous drugs have lead to reactions and suicides, but to take them off of the market or blame the company would result in far greater suffering for hundreds of millions of people.
> MAOI's for instance many people absolutely need them to have any hope at life, even though a small number of fatal reactions have been reported. Take this into account and may your son rest in peace.
Posted by lifetime on February 16, 2006, at 13:32:47
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on February 16, 2006, at 12:24:22
Linkadge,
Thank you for your point of view while we do seem to have differences in understanding as well as opinion and knowledge of fact. I never implied as you stated it is “the responsability of the patient to find out weather or not a drug has the potential to induce sucidial thoughts or feelings” as that is the responsibility of the pharmaceutical manufacturer through their research and study programs. What I am stating and you’ve apparently misread is the responsibility of the patient and/or support persons to be reasonably educated and that means to read the drug insert, available literature and/or the internet as well as discussing with one’s own physician before hand and in some instances irresponsibly proceeding and laying blame elsewhere and to careful observe patient reactions.
I am also not negating the lawful and ethical responsibility of drug companies to divulge all relevant study information and reports of side-effects and contraindications.
Since I am not familiar with many of the medical warnings in Britain would you kindly cite for me specifically where it states “doctors have been told NOT to prescribe such drugs to anyone under the age of 18?” Amongst other facts I am aware of the warning label required by the FDA in the U.S. for the recently approved VNS Therapy and while there is an age and several other restrictions the fact remains a physician may prescribe a therapy in his/her better judgment regardless of labeling. I might also add for your knowledge if you’re not aware that many of the AED’s are used effectively for purposes of mood disorders without being specifically approved by any medical body for the purposes of treating mood disorders. Furthermore, most all drug testing is not done on minors nor on seniors so thereto is an additional group requiring careful observations during treatment.
I certainly hope one does not equate fixing a toilet with the same importance and knowledge as taking care of one’s medical needs although from my readings I sometimes think some folks pay more attention and are more knowledgeable about their toilets as per your example.
My spouse opted to enter a research program as her back was toward a wall and we were very limited in options. One of the side-effects we were informed of was possible death. My spouse and I made an informed decision to proceed which was for us a beneficial and correct decision looking back in retrospect but to condemn a therapy because it doesn’t work for one but does work for another is irresponsible and a self-centered point of view. Sharing a negative or bad experience I do advocate for and is educational but advocating for the removal of treatment options such as ECT is in my mind is not acceptable knowing that many have also benefited from the very same therapy.
I’ll also add from my readings that the laws and approval of the marketing of drugs are not the same for vitamins and holistic products in this country and while drugs require documented studies and FDA approval other products do not.
So I as a reasonably intelligent consumer and health care advocate would prefer to take some responsibility for our decisions in an attempt at preparedness to avoid some of the potential serious side-effects and contraindications of any treatment and while you speak of accountability you seem to imply little or no accountability on the part of the patient, support persons and/or consumer.
As an offset to your analogy of the plumber and toilet I would offer up one imagining and placing a hot cup of coffee between one’s legs and being burnt by the coffee as it spills over while driving a vehicle would also in your mind be the responsibility of the cup manufacturer, the coffee seller and/or the vehicle manufacturer for not being prepared or having the knowledge to advise the consumer of these circumstances all coming together and causing injury. In my opinion I think many believe it is easier to lay blame than take any responsibility for one’s own actions.
Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 16, 2006, at 13:53:08
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by lifetime on February 16, 2006, at 11:19:00
For those who have found effexor useful in the face of devastating depression, I am happy for you. My son did not face devastating depression, and he would probably have been better off with NO treatment than the ridiculous treatment he received. I could not know, nor could his father have known, that the doctor was incompetent. But the bottom line for me remains that in my opinion, the doctor's obligation is to inform the patient's family that there is some danger of suicidality (as they so clinically put it!), so that we could have known to watch for this.
I understand that people die from all sorts of things every day. Everyone's life is a tragedy waiting to happen. For me, however, this loss of life was preventable, and I will probably never forgive this doctor.
DM
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 16, 2006, at 13:56:08
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by lifetime on February 16, 2006, at 13:32:47
"placing a hot cup of coffee between one’s legs"
????????????
We are talking about apples and oranges here! This is not even in the same realm...
Try to think about what you are saying before opening your mouth!
Posted by lifetime on February 16, 2006, at 14:37:32
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on February 16, 2006, at 12:24:22
Dear Mr. Levane,
I can emphasize with your feelings and express my condolences at the tragedy that has befallen your family and others from the seriousness of mood disorders. The fact is from my experiences and knowledge no mood disorder should ever be taken lightly and what at one moment may seem trivial could easily and rapidly escalate into suicidal ideations and the successful attempt at taking one’s own life.
Whether or not you are aware there are many successful adolescent suicides without the patient ever being on any medication and/or treatment. While I am knowledgeable from my readings that it is thought that in some instances the use of medications maybe a causation or contributing factor to increasing suicidal ideations the fact still remains there is no definitive correlations and many conflicting research reports.
While I cannot undo that which has taken place I can share my experiences, research and knowledge without giving any advice. If one finds it comforting and enabling to take legal action then do as one sees fit. While I still face the possibility of my spouse taking her life one day I continue to advocate for education. Mood disorders should be taken seriously. Mood disorders are potentially fatal. Medications to treat these disorders should be taken seriously. Awareness that medications have potential side-effects should be taken seriously. Awareness that medications not only have potential side-effects but can lead to death also applies to medications other than psychotropics. For that matter one should be aware that over the counter drugs such as aspirin can kill too.
You speak about “risk management.” Even as a youngster I heard an old saying when one takes drugs, “There is no free ride as there is a price to pay in one form or another.” I’ve been handling “risk management” for over 42 years in collaboration with doctors, good doctors and more importantly better doctors. In our travails we’ve encountered doctors who think their deities and others that didn’t listen. We simply made informed decisions and moved on to another physician. While many doctors heed the call “TO DO NO HARM” others are truly compassionate and caring and do make their best efforts to relieve the angish, pain and suffering of their patients suffering from horrific mood disorders and go above their call of duty to help. We have been fortunate to have had a number of those physicians attending to my spouse. While there are no guarantees when treating mood disorders one doctor in particular went beyond the bounds of the drug company specifications which I cited elsewhere relating to mega dosing of Effexor XR. The point I am making is the doctor suggested, we asked questions, we researched and made a reasonably informed decision regardless of the fact that this particular doctor was an M.D., professor, lecturer, researcher, published researcher and noted psychopharmacologist and authority. As a former DBSA facilitator I’ve listened to thousands of personal experiences of horror stories, tragedies and triumphs but we’ve always continued to encourage education, self-advocacy, support networks and systems and the like. There are no easy answers to what works or why these things happen but what we can do is to share our experiences and knowledge so hopefully others can benefit from those experiences both bad and good.
I would hope from your writings and that of “Devastated Mother” too that other parents reading this thread take the time to educate themselves quickly, to maintain lines of communication with one’s child, to try and discuss the situation with the attending physician and most importantly carefully observe any changes in the patient’s mood state especially when first initiating and/or changing any treatment regimen. I might also point out that it is not unheard of having to go through numerous treatment options and/or combinations of options in order to obtain a favorable response and/or outcome.
Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com
.
Posted by lifetime on February 16, 2006, at 15:19:32
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on February 16, 2006, at 13:56:08
Dear Devastated Mother,
“Try to think about what you are saying before opening your mouth!” – Devastated Mother
I try my best to always think very carefully not only as to what I post on various forums but what it is that I say face to face. What I cannot account for is one’s ability to read or not read and understand what is written.
The analogy of the cup of coffee was in response to a previous posters analogy of a plumber and toilet problem when compared to medical challenges and decision making. It also relates to the lack of responsibility taken upon the part of that particular individual who spilled the coffee and others that think alike.
I agree with you that plumbers, toilets, cups of coffee have no serious relationship to medical challenges and decision making although some folks apparently handle them with the same urgency and/or importance from my readings and they are not in the same rehelm. I agree with you and may I suggest you re-read “Linkadge’s” posting to understand my response to him/her.
“We are talking about apples and oranges here!” I am trying to convey the importance of education, self-advocacy and responsibility in the hope of saving lives through knowledge, understanding and informed decision making. Those are the friuts I leave here for those having interest.
I wish you all well and for those challenged by these various serious mood disorders I can only encourage hope and the most important word in my life, “persistence,” to achieve the wellness one seeks.
Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com.
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 16, 2006, at 15:34:33
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » Devastated Mother, posted by lifetime on February 16, 2006, at 15:19:32
"I am trying to convey the importance of education, self-advocacy and responsibility in the hope of saving lives through knowledge, understanding and informed decision making. Those are the friuts I leave here for those having interest."
We're all thrilled for you that you know all about the importance of education, self advocacy and responsibility. We unfortunately made the deadly mistake of trusting our health care providers to do the right thing. And our children paid for our trust with their lives. If you think your ridiculous words are helping anyone, you are seriously mistaken. What we are trying to convey here is that there is no way we would have known about what our children were facing, because a health care provider CHOSE NOT TO MAKE US PRIVY TO INFORMATION THAT WAS VITAL TO OUR CHILDREN'S LIVES.
Can you understand this? Are we not being clear? Or is your soapbox too high?
> Dear Devastated Mother,
>
> “Try to think about what you are saying before opening your mouth!” – Devastated Mother
>
> I try my best to always think very carefully not only as to what I post on various forums but what it is that I say face to face. What I cannot account for is one’s ability to read or not read and understand what is written.
>
> The analogy of the cup of coffee was in response to a previous posters analogy of a plumber and toilet problem when compared to medical challenges and decision making. It also relates to the lack of responsibility taken upon the part of that particular individual who spilled the coffee and others that think alike.
>
> I agree with you that plumbers, toilets, cups of coffee have no serious relationship to medical challenges and decision making although some folks apparently handle them with the same urgency and/or importance from my readings and they are not in the same rehelm. I agree with you and may I suggest you re-read “Linkadge’s” posting to understand my response to him/her.
>
> “We are talking about apples and oranges here!” I am trying to convey the importance of education, self-advocacy and responsibility in the hope of saving lives through knowledge, understanding and informed decision making. Those are the friuts I leave here for those having interest.
>
> I wish you all well and for those challenged by these various serious mood disorders I can only encourage hope and the most important word in my life, “persistence,” to achieve the wellness one seeks.
>
> Warmly,
> Herb
> VNSdepression.com
>
> .
>
>
>
Posted by linkadge on February 16, 2006, at 15:38:39
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by lifetime on February 16, 2006, at 13:32:47
It would be appreciated if you try and condense your views into a smaller portions. I am finding it difficult to grasp the coherance in so many seemingly unrelated points.
Anyhow, on the topic of Brittain's prescribing restrictions.
http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/03/12/15.php
At current, what are U.S. doctors required to do with regards to the potential for drugs to induce suicidiality in youth? A doctor may get away with one sentence, in the description of the drug's potential hazards.Nobody is saying that the drugs should be banned, but there needs to be a stronger action plan for monitoring the use of these drugs. In my own case, I have been prescribed a months worth of drugs, and a 2-4 minaute follow-up maybe once every 6 weeks. That is crap. That is a recipe for diaster in my oppinion, *especially* in teens who are going to be in a place of increasing danger due to their often absent parent-child relationships.
Why should you expect a depressed person to be so motivated as to the safety of their treatement? They are depressed - ie. they want to die, and they don't give a crap to begin with. What you are expecting of the suicidal patient doesn't make sence. Its like asking an Alzheimer's patient to *remember* to take their memory pills - its a situation that is flawed from the get-go.
Linkadge
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 16, 2006, at 15:44:09
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » lifetime, posted by linkadge on February 16, 2006, at 15:38:39
Linkadge,
You make some very valid points, which have been bothering me for some time. Particularly, the black box warning everyone talks about, that warns of the dangers of particular drugs. Are these meant for the depressed person, expecting that they will call their family and say, "By the way, my drugs might cause me to become suicidal, so watch me!"Really! So, for whom are they written?
>It would be appreciated if you try and condense your views into a smaller portions. I am finding it difficult to grasp the coherance in so many seemingly unrelated points.
>
> Anyhow, on the topic of Brittain's prescribing restrictions.
>
> http://www.ahrp.org/infomail/03/12/15.php
>
>
> At current, what are U.S. doctors required to do with regards to the potential for drugs to induce suicidiality in youth? A doctor may get away with one sentence, in the description of the drug's potential hazards.
>
> Nobody is saying that the drugs should be banned, but there needs to be a stronger action plan for monitoring the use of these drugs. In my own case, I have been prescribed a months worth of drugs, and a 2-4 minaute follow-up maybe once every 6 weeks. That is crap. That is a recipe for diaster in my oppinion, *especially* in teens who are going to be in a place of increasing danger due to their often absent parent-child relationships.
>
> Why should you expect a depressed person to be so motivated as to the safety of their treatement? They are depressed - ie. they want to die, and they don't give a crap to begin with. What you are expecting of the suicidal patient doesn't make sence. Its like asking an Alzheimer's patient to *remember* to take their memory pills - its a situation that is flawed from the get-go.
>
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by linkadge on February 16, 2006, at 15:44:37
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » Devastated Mother, posted by lifetime on February 16, 2006, at 15:19:32
Lives are being lost here, and you are arguing semantics. With the analogy of the plummer I was simply alluding to the fact that drug companies are responsable for knowing their products.
Look at Vioxx. Do you think they got away with - "oh sorry you should have done your homework". Of course not. The drug company had to deal with the safety problems of their medication. Like I said before. Other countries have thought enough about the issue to inforce stronger restrictions, so this isn't just an idea that we are pulling out of our ...
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on February 16, 2006, at 16:09:18
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » lifetime, posted by linkadge on February 16, 2006, at 15:44:37
Look at the drug clozapine. It can cause a fatal reduction in white blood cell count, and so they developed a mantitory once a month clozapine monitoring system. They don't say to the patient - this drug may kill you so we were hoping that you would go to get your blood checked once a month. No they *force* the patient to get monitored.
I'd like to see an effexor screeing program whereby the patient has manditory doctors appointmens at standardized intervals, standardized informing procedures, standardized suicidality questionaires, manditory parent/guardian/teacher informing etc. Manditory phone check-ups, manditory psychotherapy, the works
Cause when I was on effexor and I was suicidal, I just got the impression..who cares about me? The doctor sees me for 2-4 minautes...he doesn't care. For goodnsess sakes, why would I want to trust a doctor with my deepest emotions, when he is practically starting his stopwatch when I enter the room... I say forget it. You don't care about me..I don't care about you. If you're only going to give me 5 minautes, you don't disearve to know how I feel. I'm just going to tell you whatever I think you want to hear so that I can get out of the office.
Feeling better?.......yeah
Less depressed?.......yeah
Hows school going?....fine
Sleeping better?......yeahIt's like....just leave me alone.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk on February 16, 2006, at 16:15:45
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » lifetime, posted by linkadge on February 16, 2006, at 15:44:37
Hi Link
Treating depressed children with SSRIs and Effexor is not actually 'banned' in the UK. Doctors can still legally prescribe all SSRIs and Effexor to children. The government has advised doctors not to prescribe SSRIs (except fluoxetine) to depressed children however. Some SSRIs are approved for the treatment of childhood OCD in the UK, but none are approved for depression. Fluoxetine is approved for childhood depression in some countries.
You may be interested to hear that the offical UK data sheet for sertraline (Lustral, Zoloft) states.....
'There is limited knowledge with respect to an effect on sexual development in children.'
Kind regards
Ed
Posted by linkadge on February 16, 2006, at 16:53:31
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » linkadge, posted by ed_uk on February 16, 2006, at 16:15:45
Hmmm.
I guess my point was that certain parts of Europe have taken a more active stance on the use of AD's than the states has. Didn't they release some doctor recomendations like, for depression, first psychotherapy, family psychotherapy, exercise should be suggested, and the use of AD's restricted to cases involving psychosis etc? Not sure of the exact wording of the statement.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk on February 16, 2006, at 17:04:12
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by linkadge on February 16, 2006, at 16:53:31
Hi Link
>Didn't they release some doctor recomendations like, for depression, first psychotherapy, family psychotherapy, exercise should be suggested, and the use of AD's restricted to cases involving psychosis etc? Not sure of the exact wording of the statement.
Yes, something to that effect. SSRIs such as fluoxetine were recommended as a first line treatment *if* drugs were indicated. GPs were cautioned not to prescribe Effexor unless they had a special interest in mental health. The risk of withdrawal symptoms, toxicity in overdose and potential cardiotoxicity of Effexor were of concern. It was suggested that Effexor should only be presribed by psychiatrists.
Ed
Posted by Emily Elizabeth on February 16, 2006, at 21:05:08
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on February 16, 2006, at 15:44:09
Thanks to DM and SL for posting so openly about such a painful experience. It truly might save a life. And it gets us all to think a little about our society and medications.
First, I must say that I typically am not a huge advocate of lawsuits when things can be resolved by other means. However, in this case, I must admit that I am hoping you will pursue this route. While I do think that the MD was acting according to the standards of medical practice by maintaining confidentiality about treatment, it does sound like he needs to be held accountable for sloppy, irresponsible work.
For example, lets say that your child was suicidal before getting the effexor (I know you don't think that was the case, but for the sake of a general example, think about it.) Did the MD ask enough questions to assess whether the patient was suicidal or not? Did he refer the patient to a specialist (i.e. psychiatrist) for a complete assessment and treatment plan? Did he refer the patient to a psychotherapist to find other ways to address issues?
I'm willing to bet that the answer is "no" to all of the above. So many GP's skip these important steps and don't know how to address mental health probs. But they keep handing out psych meds. That is not okay. They need to know that if they are practicing in a specialty in which they are not trained, a tragedy could result. And, as the prescribing physician, they are accountable. The medical community needs to wake up about these issues.
Wishing you strength and healing.
Best,
EE
Posted by lifetime on February 16, 2006, at 21:10:19
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » lifetime, posted by linkadge on February 16, 2006, at 15:38:39
Linkadge,
You raise many valid points which I can easily agree with and while we agree to seek and obtain the ideal or optimum health care system the reality exits that things do not work or are not working the way you or I would like to have them. In fact, our president is recommending major cuts in health care and social services in this country which will certainly stress even more the patient and the health care system in this country.
I am a spouse, a parent and a grandparent. I know what I do for my own and I know what I have done when asked to advocate for others. While I cannot do for those that have past on I can hope and try to get my message through in order to prevent responses similar to the following one by sharing my experiences and knowledge:
“We unfortunately made the deadly mistake of trusting our health care providers to do the right thing. And our children paid for our trust with their lives. If you think your ridiculous words are helping anyone, you are seriously mistaken.” – Devastated Mother
While this particular parent believes my words to be “ridiculous” or not “helping anyone” I won’t debate the point with her lack of knowledge of what I have and have not accomplished. If one single parent reads this thread and comes away thinking and questioning any medications, doctors, treatments and/or therapies it would have accomplished something worthwhile. While I cannot do anything to save or help those parents whose children have past there maybe a parent intelligent enough to question and read before blindly accepting and proceeding just because a doctor said something. Doctors do make mistakes and they are human and their mistakes are in the graveyard. Labels are written and drug inserts and pharmacy printouts are for those capable of reading although one is not forced to do so. While you diverge from the principle of being educated and informed to all the other possible extenuating circumstances the point is information is available so maybe one of your precepts should be that the patient and his/her support persons must sit down and take a mandatory course before beginning any treatment regimen. That would eliminate the physician oversights and/or inadvertent negligence to inform and to place some responsibility in the hands of the patient and/or his/her support persons.
You are right about some patients being incapable of understanding or following instructions let alone reading some drug literature. So do as I do, advocate and encourage for a support network of friends if family and/or loved ones are not available to lend support. There are coping skills we discuss and share for all and those who must go it alone and while you and I would like to see the ideal system it doesn’t exist so we do the best we can with what we have while trying to improve the system, eliminate the stigma and in our country battle for parity with health insurance carriers for those suffering the medical illnesses of mood disorders.
While you’re at it I’ve referenced some links for you as to the conflicting studies and information relating to antidepressants and suicide.
http://www.aei.org/publications/filter.all,pubID.23686/pub_detail.asp
http://www.pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/40/10/52-a
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/163/1/41
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health_medical/article344226.ece
Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com.
Posted by dancingstar on February 16, 2006, at 23:15:06
In reply to Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on January 21, 2006, at 2:23:04
This thread was brought to my attention by a friend.
DM, words can't express how sorry I am for your loss. I was so very sad to read your posts. Though I wasn't damaged anywhere near as badly, I was hurt beyond all reason by having taken Effexor. There were no warnings. There was nowhere to turn for help.
My heart goes out to you completely. I feel strongly that these companies either need to lay the facts out on the table, unvarnished, so that people know exactly how dangerous these drugs are and stop handing them out like candy or get them off the market so that no one else can be harmed by them. Effexor is currently one of the four most widely prescribed drugs in the United States.
I hope that someone reads your words and is spared the endless tears. The patient and their family cannot be expected to know everything. We might as well all go to medical school if we need to be that informed, and there isn't any point in doctors' needing to write prescriptions if we are taking responsibility for what medications we take.
Blessings,
Bebe
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