![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 51 to 75 of 143. Go back in thread:
Posted by simon levane on February 3, 2006, at 16:14:39
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » simon levane, posted by Racer on February 2, 2006, at 20:14:23
Dear Racer...
I really didn't answer your question better.
I did find a very good guide that I wish I had had long ago...
it is an excellent guide for parents with a child who may be suicidal.. or anyone for that matter..
http://www.bcmentalhealthworks.ca/files/living_suicidal.html
When I read this, I so wished that someone had given this to me before.. as it has so much excellent information. Hope it helps someone if you pass this on.
SL> I am so sorry about your daughter. Reading this thread was heartwrenching, and you both have my deepest sympathy.
>
> In the course of your searching for support, have either of you found any organizations that try to tell parents and other loved ones about this sort of thing BEFORE it happens? Or that try to find ways of reaching out to parents as soon as they start getting help for a child? I know that there are organizations that exist if someone looks for them, but I'm not aware of any that try to encourage parents to seek that information?
>
> Again, I'm sorry -- and I'm also sorry to break in asking for information. Thank you.
Posted by Racer on February 3, 2006, at 19:45:39
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on February 3, 2006, at 16:14:39
> Dear Racer...
> I really didn't answer your question better.
> I did find a very good guide that I wish I had had long ago...
> it is an excellent guide for parents with a child who may be suicidal.. or anyone for that matter..
>
> http://www.bcmentalhealthworks.ca/files/living_suicidal.html
>
> When I read this, I so wished that someone had given this to me before.. as it has so much excellent information. Hope it helps someone if you pass this on.
> SL
>And I think I wasn't all that clear in asking the question, either, so we're even on this. Let me try again, see if I get any clearer.
I was wondering if you had come across any advocacy groups that were set up to that parents would be OFFERED that sort of resource as soon as a child was diagnosed or put on medication. Maybe a group trying to pass legislation that would require doctors' offices to give parents a list of local, national, and online resources that provided information about mental illness in children, and the benefits and risks of psychotropic medication for children. Or even just that doctors be required to give parents information about the risks of the drugs their children are taking.
I'm not sure how old your daughter was, but if she was under 18, I am absolutely stunned that the doctor wouldn't communicate with you at all. That's terrible, since minor children are under a parent's guardianship. That just seems wrong -- her pediatrician would have told you about the risks of an antibiotic, right? Psychotropic medication should be held to the same standards as other drugs, except in very rare instances. (I'm thinking things like cases where the parent belongs to a religion that doesn't allow western doctors, or where a parent refuses to believe in depression, so creates roadblocks to that child getting help. That sort of thing, where the child's life is either in danger, or the child's quality of life is impaired, but the parent refuses to get help. And only if the child makes the move to do it -- I would NOT want to see the schools able to send kids to doctors without authorization from the parents. Basically the same sorts of things that apply to minor girls getting gynecological care without parental notification in some states.)
After reading your story, as well as DM's, I just think that there should be some sort of requirement that doctors communicate risks of these drugs to parents, even if the DOCTOR him/herself does not believe that there is a risk in this case. Sort of like a black box saying "If prescribed for children under 18, risk information must be provided for parent or guardian." You know? And, frankly, since there's no way to undo the damage that has already occurred, it seemed as though you and DM might be very compelling for getting something changed, and working towards that might help a bit?
Again, you have my deepest sympathy for your devasting loss, as does DM.
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 3, 2006, at 21:40:52
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » simon levane, posted by Racer on February 3, 2006, at 19:45:39
"Or even just that doctors be required to give parents information about the risks of the drugs their children are taking."
The new HIPA law does exactly the opposite. In the interest of maintaining privacy, unless children sign a release, doctors cannot talk with parents or anyone else. Depressed people are not likely to make the best decisions for themselves. My son, on the other hand, was not even asked, but even when asked, I am sure some would refuse having anyone in their family know.
Frankly, while I admit that your idea is not a bad one, I am fairly jaded at this point about anyone or anything doing anything for anyone but themselves. I think politicians (responsible for HIPA) only care about the money and the power their position can give them; I think the same is true of doctors. So who would we get to make these changes? I am just not very hopeful for this world. How exactly would anyone get this to happen? No one really cares. It is very easy to say, but doing something about it....something else entirely.
It doesn't matter, in my opinion, how old someone is--my son was 20, but he was still very much growing and developing. He was a college junior; college students are still in flux, no matter how old they are...
Good idea. Implementation? How?
DM
> > Dear Racer...
> > I really didn't answer your question better.
> > I did find a very good guide that I wish I had had long ago...
> > it is an excellent guide for parents with a child who may be suicidal.. or anyone for that matter..
> >
> > http://www.bcmentalhealthworks.ca/files/living_suicidal.html
> >
> > When I read this, I so wished that someone had given this to me before.. as it has so much excellent information. Hope it helps someone if you pass this on.
> > SL
> >
>
> And I think I wasn't all that clear in asking the question, either, so we're even on this. Let me try again, see if I get any clearer.
>
> I was wondering if you had come across any advocacy groups that were set up to that parents would be OFFERED that sort of resource as soon as a child was diagnosed or put on medication. Maybe a group trying to pass legislation that would require doctors' offices to give parents a list of local, national, and online resources that provided information about mental illness in children, and the benefits and risks of psychotropic medication for children. Or even just that doctors be required to give parents information about the risks of the drugs their children are taking.
>
> I'm not sure how old your daughter was, but if she was under 18, I am absolutely stunned that the doctor wouldn't communicate with you at all. That's terrible, since minor children are under a parent's guardianship. That just seems wrong -- her pediatrician would have told you about the risks of an antibiotic, right? Psychotropic medication should be held to the same standards as other drugs, except in very rare instances. (I'm thinking things like cases where the parent belongs to a religion that doesn't allow western doctors, or where a parent refuses to believe in depression, so creates roadblocks to that child getting help. That sort of thing, where the child's life is either in danger, or the child's quality of life is impaired, but the parent refuses to get help. And only if the child makes the move to do it -- I would NOT want to see the schools able to send kids to doctors without authorization from the parents. Basically the same sorts of things that apply to minor girls getting gynecological care without parental notification in some states.)
>
> After reading your story, as well as DM's, I just think that there should be some sort of requirement that doctors communicate risks of these drugs to parents, even if the DOCTOR him/herself does not believe that there is a risk in this case. Sort of like a black box saying "If prescribed for children under 18, risk information must be provided for parent or guardian." You know? And, frankly, since there's no way to undo the damage that has already occurred, it seemed as though you and DM might be very compelling for getting something changed, and working towards that might help a bit?
>
> Again, you have my deepest sympathy for your devasting loss, as does DM.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 3, 2006, at 22:24:09
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on February 3, 2006, at 21:40:52
> The new HIPA law does exactly the opposite...
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding the new HIPA law to Psycho-Babble Social. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20060203/msgs/606122.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by simon levane on February 3, 2006, at 22:40:46
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on February 3, 2006, at 21:40:52
Dear DM and Racer,
sometimes the law really is an *ss.
the age of majority at which a patient has privacy rights is quite young in some jurisdictions. It is really hard to imagine sometimes that a child as young as 16 has the right of patient-doctor privilege. I found out after my daughter's death in her medical records that she had confided much of her clinical at-risk behaviours to a consulting expert psychiatrist who had diagnosed her with borderline personality disorder. He did not sit down with me and her mother and explain the full scale of her illness. Instead he told us the name of what it was, but neither of us really understood the implications. Some of the risk factors in her situation were as high as 50% chance of successful suicide within 5 years - for example, drug abuse. I had no idea that this risk factor existed. I only discovered this after her death.
The most horrific part of this for both myself and I believe for DM from what she has written, is that neither of us were advised of the actual potential risk of Effexor. I still remember that state of naiveness not imagining that a doctor could approve a drug for my daughter that "might" cause her to kill herself. Who could imagine anyone prescribing a drug like that without giving a clear caution. I sat in front of an expert telling me how this drug would help my daughter deal with obsessive compulsive disorder and general anxiety disorder. She did not even know about my daughter's drug abuse in past, nor have a clue that she was actually abusing ritalin and that this was a potential risk factor. She just asked my daughter if she was suicidal and of course my daughter said no,, and in that was telling the truth, but she didn't tell the doctor that she was abusing the ritalin. Had this expert just said to us both.. "if she feels suicidal, call your doctor and take her to the hospital, here are some things to be watchful about." This would have saved her life. And in DM's case, had she known something about effexor, she would have been in a position to have her son admitted due to the effects of that drug, and may have saved his life.
Now when one reads about good clinical practice in the case of patients at risk for suicidal behaviour, one of the key elements is "INVOLVING FAMILY".. There is a guide put out by the American Psychiatric Association on this, but you can imagine that most doctors don't even know it exists. The doctor patient confidentiality is superceded if a patient gives indication of harming others, or of harming self. But so many doctors won't risk breeching the confidentiality because of potential law suits, or as in the case of the doctors who gave "care" to my daughter, they just were either disinterested or plain simple ignorant. Not so dissimilar to DM's son's doctors.
Oh dear... there is a level at which one starts to not care about others because the worst thing that could happen has happened to self. It is a kind of reflection back of the fact that the very doctors who could have saved the life of one's own child, are just so insensitive to our loss, it hardly touches them. Tsk tsk .. too bad...
I have found more understanding from others who have suffered similar losses, and from some very decent caring people, than from most professionals whose greatest interest is themselves. Not one of my daughter's doctors sent even a note of sympathy or regret.
Now it is has become so clear that the evidence of risk was there, and one of these doctors could have saved our daughter's life by letting us be aware of the risk of this drug.
I rail at myself every day for not researching the drug as I should have done, but I was lulled into a false sense of security because I could not imagine anyone putting my child at such risk. For all the difficulties she presented and many years of upset at her behaviours, I never could imagine her taking her own life. I was actually thinking about the years ahead that I faced in trying to be a good father to her in spite of the difficulties. I felt worn out by her behaviours, but I was hopeful for the future. Sadly, a lot of people let us down. But at end, the parents are the ones who are left with the agony of loss, and it is terrible beyond any imagination or comprehension. If I tell someone who is urging me to "move forward" to imagine their own child's death - I can just see in their faces, that like myself before my daughter's death, they cannot bear to even think of this as a reality. Doctors should hear the pain of parents and keep that somewhere in the forefront of their thoughts in patient care to prevent this agony of a torture that is simply beyond comprehension.
SL
> "Or even just that doctors be required to give parents information about the risks of the drugs their children are taking."
>
> The new HIPA law does exactly the opposite. In the interest of maintaining privacy, unless children sign a release, doctors cannot talk with parents or anyone else. Depressed people are not likely to make the best decisions for themselves. My son, on the other hand, was not even asked, but even when asked, I am sure some would refuse having anyone in their family know.
>
> Frankly, while I admit that your idea is not a bad one, I am fairly jaded at this point about anyone or anything doing anything for anyone but themselves. I think politicians (responsible for HIPA) only care about the money and the power their position can give them; I think the same is true of doctors. So who would we get to make these changes? I am just not very hopeful for this world. How exactly would anyone get this to happen? No one really cares. It is very easy to say, but doing something about it....something else entirely.
>
> It doesn't matter, in my opinion, how old someone is--my son was 20, but he was still very much growing and developing. He was a college junior; college students are still in flux, no matter how old they are...
>
> Good idea. Implementation? How?
>
> DM
>
> > > Dear Racer...
> > > I really didn't answer your question better.
> > > I did find a very good guide that I wish I had had long ago...
> > > it is an excellent guide for parents with a child who may be suicidal.. or anyone for that matter..
> > >
> > > http://www.bcmentalhealthworks.ca/files/living_suicidal.html
> > >
> > > When I read this, I so wished that someone had given this to me before.. as it has so much excellent information. Hope it helps someone if you pass this on.
> > > SL
> > >
> >
> > And I think I wasn't all that clear in asking the question, either, so we're even on this. Let me try again, see if I get any clearer.
> >
> > I was wondering if you had come across any advocacy groups that were set up to that parents would be OFFERED that sort of resource as soon as a child was diagnosed or put on medication. Maybe a group trying to pass legislation that would require doctors' offices to give parents a list of local, national, and online resources that provided information about mental illness in children, and the benefits and risks of psychotropic medication for children. Or even just that doctors be required to give parents information about the risks of the drugs their children are taking.
> >
> > I'm not sure how old your daughter was, but if she was under 18, I am absolutely stunned that the doctor wouldn't communicate with you at all. That's terrible, since minor children are under a parent's guardianship. That just seems wrong -- her pediatrician would have told you about the risks of an antibiotic, right? Psychotropic medication should be held to the same standards as other drugs, except in very rare instances. (I'm thinking things like cases where the parent belongs to a religion that doesn't allow western doctors, or where a parent refuses to believe in depression, so creates roadblocks to that child getting help. That sort of thing, where the child's life is either in danger, or the child's quality of life is impaired, but the parent refuses to get help. And only if the child makes the move to do it -- I would NOT want to see the schools able to send kids to doctors without authorization from the parents. Basically the same sorts of things that apply to minor girls getting gynecological care without parental notification in some states.)
> >
> > After reading your story, as well as DM's, I just think that there should be some sort of requirement that doctors communicate risks of these drugs to parents, even if the DOCTOR him/herself does not believe that there is a risk in this case. Sort of like a black box saying "If prescribed for children under 18, risk information must be provided for parent or guardian." You know? And, frankly, since there's no way to undo the damage that has already occurred, it seemed as though you and DM might be very compelling for getting something changed, and working towards that might help a bit?
> >
> > Again, you have my deepest sympathy for your devasting loss, as does DM.
>
>
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 4, 2006, at 6:31:58
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on February 3, 2006, at 22:40:46
Dear Simon,
"Had this expert just said to us both.. "if she feels suicidal, call your doctor and take her to the hospital, here are some things to be watchful about." This would have saved her life. And in DM's case, had she known something about effexor, she would have been in a position to have her son admitted due to the effects of that drug, and may have saved his life."
You are absolutely correct in this. As a matter of fact, Simon, since I know you will understand let me tell you that his father and I were out of the country when he died, which we would never have done had we had a clue of what he was facing. Or we would at the very least have contacted someone in our families, any one of whom would have contacted him and talked with him and watched for this. As it was, none of us knew, and so no one made the special life-saving efforts that meant that he is gone.
Simon, you are right, no one else can really understand, unless they have been there, how totally violated and abused by the medical profession one can feel. When we called to tell the doctor, all she wanted to know was what the "precipitating factor" was. No sympathy, no clues, no indication that she even recognized that she had played any role in this. It was not until much later that I investigated the drug and realized what had happened. We were all in such a state of shock, because my son had never exhibited any suicidal tendencies, and had no reason to do so. It hit us like a ton of bricks, and my life, my husband's life, his, brother and sister's lives, and all his cousins, aunts and uncles, grandmothers...everyone whose life he touched will never be the same. I have such a horrible lump in my throat writing this. I wish people would just stop saying how sorry they are. It is so irrelevant.
> Dear DM and Racer,
> sometimes the law really is an *ss.
> the age of majority at which a patient has privacy rights is quite young in some jurisdictions. It is really hard to imagine sometimes that a child as young as 16 has the right of patient-doctor privilege. I found out after my daughter's death in her medical records that she had confided much of her clinical at-risk behaviours to a consulting expert psychiatrist who had diagnosed her with borderline personality disorder. He did not sit down with me and her mother and explain the full scale of her illness. Instead he told us the name of what it was, but neither of us really understood the implications. Some of the risk factors in her situation were as high as 50% chance of successful suicide within 5 years - for example, drug abuse. I had no idea that this risk factor existed. I only discovered this after her death.
> The most horrific part of this for both myself and I believe for DM from what she has written, is that neither of us were advised of the actual potential risk of Effexor. I still remember that state of naiveness not imagining that a doctor could approve a drug for my daughter that "might" cause her to kill herself. Who could imagine anyone prescribing a drug like that without giving a clear caution. I sat in front of an expert telling me how this drug would help my daughter deal with obsessive compulsive disorder and general anxiety disorder. She did not even know about my daughter's drug abuse in past, nor have a clue that she was actually abusing ritalin and that this was a potential risk factor. She just asked my daughter if she was suicidal and of course my daughter said no,, and in that was telling the truth, but she didn't tell the doctor that she was abusing the ritalin. Had this expert just said to us both.. "if she feels suicidal, call your doctor and take her to the hospital, here are some things to be watchful about." This would have saved her life. And in DM's case, had she known something about effexor, she would have been in a position to have her son admitted due to the effects of that drug, and may have saved his life.
> Now when one reads about good clinical practice in the case of patients at risk for suicidal behaviour, one of the key elements is "INVOLVING FAMILY".. There is a guide put out by the American Psychiatric Association on this, but you can imagine that most doctors don't even know it exists. The doctor patient confidentiality is superceded if a patient gives indication of harming others, or of harming self. But so many doctors won't risk breeching the confidentiality because of potential law suits, or as in the case of the doctors who gave "care" to my daughter, they just were either disinterested or plain simple ignorant. Not so dissimilar to DM's son's doctors.
> Oh dear... there is a level at which one starts to not care about others because the worst thing that could happen has happened to self. It is a kind of reflection back of the fact that the very doctors who could have saved the life of one's own child, are just so insensitive to our loss, it hardly touches them. Tsk tsk .. too bad...
> I have found more understanding from others who have suffered similar losses, and from some very decent caring people, than from most professionals whose greatest interest is themselves. Not one of my daughter's doctors sent even a note of sympathy or regret.
> Now it is has become so clear that the evidence of risk was there, and one of these doctors could have saved our daughter's life by letting us be aware of the risk of this drug.
> I rail at myself every day for not researching the drug as I should have done, but I was lulled into a false sense of security because I could not imagine anyone putting my child at such risk. For all the difficulties she presented and many years of upset at her behaviours, I never could imagine her taking her own life. I was actually thinking about the years ahead that I faced in trying to be a good father to her in spite of the difficulties. I felt worn out by her behaviours, but I was hopeful for the future. Sadly, a lot of people let us down. But at end, the parents are the ones who are left with the agony of loss, and it is terrible beyond any imagination or comprehension. If I tell someone who is urging me to "move forward" to imagine their own child's death - I can just see in their faces, that like myself before my daughter's death, they cannot bear to even think of this as a reality. Doctors should hear the pain of parents and keep that somewhere in the forefront of their thoughts in patient care to prevent this agony of a torture that is simply beyond comprehension.
> SL
>
>
> > "Or even just that doctors be required to give parents information about the risks of the drugs their children are taking."
> >
> > The new HIPA law does exactly the opposite. In the interest of maintaining privacy, unless children sign a release, doctors cannot talk with parents or anyone else. Depressed people are not likely to make the best decisions for themselves. My son, on the other hand, was not even asked, but even when asked, I am sure some would refuse having anyone in their family know.
> >
> > Frankly, while I admit that your idea is not a bad one, I am fairly jaded at this point about anyone or anything doing anything for anyone but themselves. I think politicians (responsible for HIPA) only care about the money and the power their position can give them; I think the same is true of doctors. So who would we get to make these changes? I am just not very hopeful for this world. How exactly would anyone get this to happen? No one really cares. It is very easy to say, but doing something about it....something else entirely.
> >
> > It doesn't matter, in my opinion, how old someone is--my son was 20, but he was still very much growing and developing. He was a college junior; college students are still in flux, no matter how old they are...
> >
> > Good idea. Implementation? How?
> >
> > DM
> >
> > > > Dear Racer...
> > > > I really didn't answer your question better.
> > > > I did find a very good guide that I wish I had had long ago...
> > > > it is an excellent guide for parents with a child who may be suicidal.. or anyone for that matter..
> > > >
> > > > http://www.bcmentalhealthworks.ca/files/living_suicidal.html
> > > >
> > > > When I read this, I so wished that someone had given this to me before.. as it has so much excellent information. Hope it helps someone if you pass this on.
> > > > SL
> > > >
> > >
> > > And I think I wasn't all that clear in asking the question, either, so we're even on this. Let me try again, see if I get any clearer.
> > >
> > > I was wondering if you had come across any advocacy groups that were set up to that parents would be OFFERED that sort of resource as soon as a child was diagnosed or put on medication. Maybe a group trying to pass legislation that would require doctors' offices to give parents a list of local, national, and online resources that provided information about mental illness in children, and the benefits and risks of psychotropic medication for children. Or even just that doctors be required to give parents information about the risks of the drugs their children are taking.
> > >
> > > I'm not sure how old your daughter was, but if she was under 18, I am absolutely stunned that the doctor wouldn't communicate with you at all. That's terrible, since minor children are under a parent's guardianship. That just seems wrong -- her pediatrician would have told you about the risks of an antibiotic, right? Psychotropic medication should be held to the same standards as other drugs, except in very rare instances. (I'm thinking things like cases where the parent belongs to a religion that doesn't allow western doctors, or where a parent refuses to believe in depression, so creates roadblocks to that child getting help. That sort of thing, where the child's life is either in danger, or the child's quality of life is impaired, but the parent refuses to get help. And only if the child makes the move to do it -- I would NOT want to see the schools able to send kids to doctors without authorization from the parents. Basically the same sorts of things that apply to minor girls getting gynecological care without parental notification in some states.)
> > >
> > > After reading your story, as well as DM's, I just think that there should be some sort of requirement that doctors communicate risks of these drugs to parents, even if the DOCTOR him/herself does not believe that there is a risk in this case. Sort of like a black box saying "If prescribed for children under 18, risk information must be provided for parent or guardian." You know? And, frankly, since there's no way to undo the damage that has already occurred, it seemed as though you and DM might be very compelling for getting something changed, and working towards that might help a bit?
> > >
> > > Again, you have my deepest sympathy for your devasting loss, as does DM.
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by simon levane on February 4, 2006, at 12:23:10
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on February 4, 2006, at 6:31:58
Dear D.M.
thanks for your post. I struggle to write about the unbelievable impact of loss. I know you understand this. Whereas your son was on a positive path in his life from what you wrote, and I feel your loss of the possibilities for him that he would have achieved, my daughter had been on a tragic path for many years due to her illness. We both feel the same horror of loss and the same feeling that we should have been able to save our children. For me, there is an agony that I did not truly understand her illness and that I could and should have, had I focused on this and researched it. I read a bit about it, but her diagnosis was vague with differing opinions by different doctors. I took a doctor who said she did not have BPD and was relieved at his diagnosis, but he was wrong. On top of this, she was so full of life and of her own energy, and so stubborn that I had truly withdrawn from exhaustion and an inability to know how to discipine her or keep her on a good track. I didn't know how to get her to stop her truancy from school as early as grade 7. We had truant officers coming to our house to get her to go to school, but even at that stage, the help was flawed. For all the support I tried to get, I just didn't have the right focus to help her. Close friends have told me that I was a good father, but I just don't believe that now. I was not a "good enough" father for her needs. Still, when I look at the confusion surrounding her care, and the utter failure to give her the real support and care she needed, and then the ultimate horror of a drug that very likely pushed her over the edge, I feel as if she was "stolen" from us due to this completely flippant and care-me-not attitude of the doctors. My close friends tell me that she and I would have found one another again. We had shared a lot of joy and laughter together, but her behaviours and my own ways of somehow trying to survive psychologically, conspired against us. It is hard to fathom all of this now and I see so much I could have done differently and better, but it is too late, so I live the pain of these thoughts of what I should have done against the harsh reality that I can do nothing anymore, and of the loss.. Missing her.. Missing who should was and who she could have been.
I wanted to die in a bed with her and her family as it could have been, there to see me go to the next life, not to be without her now and to suffer the agony for the rest of my life. It is just too heavy a punishment for my not being "a good enough" father.
And I know that there are others who suffer the same agony at the loss of their children, when it should not have happened, had the medical care been better.
SL> Dear Simon,
>
> "Had this expert just said to us both.. "if she feels suicidal, call your doctor and take her to the hospital, here are some things to be watchful about." This would have saved her life. And in DM's case, had she known something about effexor, she would have been in a position to have her son admitted due to the effects of that drug, and may have saved his life."
>
> You are absolutely correct in this. As a matter of fact, Simon, since I know you will understand let me tell you that his father and I were out of the country when he died, which we would never have done had we had a clue of what he was facing. Or we would at the very least have contacted someone in our families, any one of whom would have contacted him and talked with him and watched for this. As it was, none of us knew, and so no one made the special life-saving efforts that meant that he is gone.
>
> Simon, you are right, no one else can really understand, unless they have been there, how totally violated and abused by the medical profession one can feel. When we called to tell the doctor, all she wanted to know was what the "precipitating factor" was. No sympathy, no clues, no indication that she even recognized that she had played any role in this. It was not until much later that I investigated the drug and realized what had happened. We were all in such a state of shock, because my son had never exhibited any suicidal tendencies, and had no reason to do so. It hit us like a ton of bricks, and my life, my husband's life, his, brother and sister's lives, and all his cousins, aunts and uncles, grandmothers...everyone whose life he touched will never be the same. I have such a horrible lump in my throat writing this. I wish people would just stop saying how sorry they are. It is so irrelevant.
>
> > Dear DM and Racer,
> > sometimes the law really is an *ss.
> > the age of majority at which a patient has privacy rights is quite young in some jurisdictions. It is really hard to imagine sometimes that a child as young as 16 has the right of patient-doctor privilege. I found out after my daughter's death in her medical records that she had confided much of her clinical at-risk behaviours to a consulting expert psychiatrist who had diagnosed her with borderline personality disorder. He did not sit down with me and her mother and explain the full scale of her illness. Instead he told us the name of what it was, but neither of us really understood the implications. Some of the risk factors in her situation were as high as 50% chance of successful suicide within 5 years - for example, drug abuse. I had no idea that this risk factor existed. I only discovered this after her death.
> > The most horrific part of this for both myself and I believe for DM from what she has written, is that neither of us were advised of the actual potential risk of Effexor. I still remember that state of naiveness not imagining that a doctor could approve a drug for my daughter that "might" cause her to kill herself. Who could imagine anyone prescribing a drug like that without giving a clear caution. I sat in front of an expert telling me how this drug would help my daughter deal with obsessive compulsive disorder and general anxiety disorder. She did not even know about my daughter's drug abuse in past, nor have a clue that she was actually abusing ritalin and that this was a potential risk factor. She just asked my daughter if she was suicidal and of course my daughter said no,, and in that was telling the truth, but she didn't tell the doctor that she was abusing the ritalin. Had this expert just said to us both.. "if she feels suicidal, call your doctor and take her to the hospital, here are some things to be watchful about." This would have saved her life. And in DM's case, had she known something about effexor, she would have been in a position to have her son admitted due to the effects of that drug, and may have saved his life.
> > Now when one reads about good clinical practice in the case of patients at risk for suicidal behaviour, one of the key elements is "INVOLVING FAMILY".. There is a guide put out by the American Psychiatric Association on this, but you can imagine that most doctors don't even know it exists. The doctor patient confidentiality is superceded if a patient gives indication of harming others, or of harming self. But so many doctors won't risk breeching the confidentiality because of potential law suits, or as in the case of the doctors who gave "care" to my daughter, they just were either disinterested or plain simple ignorant. Not so dissimilar to DM's son's doctors.
> > Oh dear... there is a level at which one starts to not care about others because the worst thing that could happen has happened to self. It is a kind of reflection back of the fact that the very doctors who could have saved the life of one's own child, are just so insensitive to our loss, it hardly touches them. Tsk tsk .. too bad...
> > I have found more understanding from others who have suffered similar losses, and from some very decent caring people, than from most professionals whose greatest interest is themselves. Not one of my daughter's doctors sent even a note of sympathy or regret.
> > Now it is has become so clear that the evidence of risk was there, and one of these doctors could have saved our daughter's life by letting us be aware of the risk of this drug.
> > I rail at myself every day for not researching the drug as I should have done, but I was lulled into a false sense of security because I could not imagine anyone putting my child at such risk. For all the difficulties she presented and many years of upset at her behaviours, I never could imagine her taking her own life. I was actually thinking about the years ahead that I faced in trying to be a good father to her in spite of the difficulties. I felt worn out by her behaviours, but I was hopeful for the future. Sadly, a lot of people let us down. But at end, the parents are the ones who are left with the agony of loss, and it is terrible beyond any imagination or comprehension. If I tell someone who is urging me to "move forward" to imagine their own child's death - I can just see in their faces, that like myself before my daughter's death, they cannot bear to even think of this as a reality. Doctors should hear the pain of parents and keep that somewhere in the forefront of their thoughts in patient care to prevent this agony of a torture that is simply beyond comprehension.
> > SL
> >
> >
> > > "Or even just that doctors be required to give parents information about the risks of the drugs their children are taking."
> > >
> > > The new HIPA law does exactly the opposite. In the interest of maintaining privacy, unless children sign a release, doctors cannot talk with parents or anyone else. Depressed people are not likely to make the best decisions for themselves. My son, on the other hand, was not even asked, but even when asked, I am sure some would refuse having anyone in their family know.
> > >
> > > Frankly, while I admit that your idea is not a bad one, I am fairly jaded at this point about anyone or anything doing anything for anyone but themselves. I think politicians (responsible for HIPA) only care about the money and the power their position can give them; I think the same is true of doctors. So who would we get to make these changes? I am just not very hopeful for this world. How exactly would anyone get this to happen? No one really cares. It is very easy to say, but doing something about it....something else entirely.
> > >
> > > It doesn't matter, in my opinion, how old someone is--my son was 20, but he was still very much growing and developing. He was a college junior; college students are still in flux, no matter how old they are...
> > >
> > > Good idea. Implementation? How?
> > >
> > > DM
> > >
> > > > > Dear Racer...
> > > > > I really didn't answer your question better.
> > > > > I did find a very good guide that I wish I had had long ago...
> > > > > it is an excellent guide for parents with a child who may be suicidal.. or anyone for that matter..
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.bcmentalhealthworks.ca/files/living_suicidal.html
> > > > >
> > > > > When I read this, I so wished that someone had given this to me before.. as it has so much excellent information. Hope it helps someone if you pass this on.
> > > > > SL
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > And I think I wasn't all that clear in asking the question, either, so we're even on this. Let me try again, see if I get any clearer.
> > > >
> > > > I was wondering if you had come across any advocacy groups that were set up to that parents would be OFFERED that sort of resource as soon as a child was diagnosed or put on medication. Maybe a group trying to pass legislation that would require doctors' offices to give parents a list of local, national, and online resources that provided information about mental illness in children, and the benefits and risks of psychotropic medication for children. Or even just that doctors be required to give parents information about the risks of the drugs their children are taking.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure how old your daughter was, but if she was under 18, I am absolutely stunned that the doctor wouldn't communicate with you at all. That's terrible, since minor children are under a parent's guardianship. That just seems wrong -- her pediatrician would have told you about the risks of an antibiotic, right? Psychotropic medication should be held to the same standards as other drugs, except in very rare instances. (I'm thinking things like cases where the parent belongs to a religion that doesn't allow western doctors, or where a parent refuses to believe in depression, so creates roadblocks to that child getting help. That sort of thing, where the child's life is either in danger, or the child's quality of life is impaired, but the parent refuses to get help. And only if the child makes the move to do it -- I would NOT want to see the schools able to send kids to doctors without authorization from the parents. Basically the same sorts of things that apply to minor girls getting gynecological care without parental notification in some states.)
> > > >
> > > > After reading your story, as well as DM's, I just think that there should be some sort of requirement that doctors communicate risks of these drugs to parents, even if the DOCTOR him/herself does not believe that there is a risk in this case. Sort of like a black box saying "If prescribed for children under 18, risk information must be provided for parent or guardian." You know? And, frankly, since there's no way to undo the damage that has already occurred, it seemed as though you and DM might be very compelling for getting something changed, and working towards that might help a bit?
> > > >
> > > > Again, you have my deepest sympathy for your devasting loss, as does DM.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 5, 2006, at 9:46:01
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on February 4, 2006, at 12:23:10
"I feel as if she was "stolen" from us due to this completely flippant and care-me-not attitude of the doctors. My close friends tell me that she and I would have found one another again. We had shared a lot of joy and laughter together"
This part of the comment you made was particularly meaningful to me, as it absolutely states exactly how I feel. I am sure your daughter would have grown into a wonderful young woman, as much as I am sure my son would have been a terrific adult, father, uncle, brother...
On the other hand, every time I say the Lord's Prayer, I think of Al, a friend of ours who on his deathbed in his dying gift to his young children (I think they were 6 and 11), shared the meaning of this prayer. We are none of us promised long life, and the knowledge that our children shared unspeakable pain gives me hope that they were welcomed into His house with rejoicing. This alone sustains me and allows me to continue living, else I would have to die, taking the good doc with me. I am also blessed to be a teacher and I minister to His other children every day of my life, and will continue to do so for as long as He sees fit to leave me on this good earth. The teens of all sorts that I watch every year grow and change into adults are the reason I know that yours and mine could have become comfortable adults, given the chance.
My daughter, at his funeral, asked during the service if she could sing for her brother (we had not planned this as part of the service). She said she didn't mean in church, but by the grave. I told her to just bring a song book and it would be fine, and asked what she wanted to sing. Together she and I sang "You are Mine". Nothing in my life has touched me more, and it gives me peace today knowing that for that brief time, she and I together recognized God's power over us all.
So, does this help? At times...at times all of it does. And at times nothing does. At times screaming and tearing my hair out would help.
Still devastated mother....
Posted by simon levane on February 6, 2006, at 9:35:28
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on February 5, 2006, at 9:46:01
Dear Still Devastated Mother,
Thank you for your kind thoughts and sharing of your own experience. You are so lucky to have other children, though I know this does not ease the pain, but at least it gives you reason to go on and your teaching of other children gives you that opportunity to make a difference in their lives. Unfortunately, my daughter did not have enough teachers who cared enough about her to help her. One mentor teacher could have made so much difference.. In elementary school she did have a wonderful librarian teacher who was able to motivate her, but at that time we did not see the long range risks.
Each of us can make so big a difference in the lives of others, but sometimes, so many just do not take that opportunity or do injury by their limitations.
They say "it takes a village to raise a child" and sadly in our case, we were just too isolated and alone.
again.. thanks for your comments...
I just received a request on the survivor advocate group in Canada from some health care specialists working on how to improve the whole issue of patient-doctor confidentiality in the case of patients at risk from suicide, involvement of families and proper sharing of relevant information. Perhaps there will be changes, but oh dear, in this modern age .. too late for my daughter.. too late for me..
Simon> "I feel as if she was "stolen" from us due to this completely flippant and care-me-not attitude of the doctors. My close friends tell me that she and I would have found one another again. We had shared a lot of joy and laughter together"
>
> This part of the comment you made was particularly meaningful to me, as it absolutely states exactly how I feel. I am sure your daughter would have grown into a wonderful young woman, as much as I am sure my son would have been a terrific adult, father, uncle, brother...
>
> On the other hand, every time I say the Lord's Prayer, I think of Al, a friend of ours who on his deathbed in his dying gift to his young children (I think they were 6 and 11), shared the meaning of this prayer. We are none of us promised long life, and the knowledge that our children shared unspeakable pain gives me hope that they were welcomed into His house with rejoicing. This alone sustains me and allows me to continue living, else I would have to die, taking the good doc with me. I am also blessed to be a teacher and I minister to His other children every day of my life, and will continue to do so for as long as He sees fit to leave me on this good earth. The teens of all sorts that I watch every year grow and change into adults are the reason I know that yours and mine could have become comfortable adults, given the chance.
>
> My daughter, at his funeral, asked during the service if she could sing for her brother (we had not planned this as part of the service). She said she didn't mean in church, but by the grave. I told her to just bring a song book and it would be fine, and asked what she wanted to sing. Together she and I sang "You are Mine". Nothing in my life has touched me more, and it gives me peace today knowing that for that brief time, she and I together recognized God's power over us all.
>
> So, does this help? At times...at times all of it does. And at times nothing does. At times screaming and tearing my hair out would help.
>
> Still devastated mother....
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 6, 2006, at 9:44:43
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on February 6, 2006, at 9:35:28
Simon,
And too late for my son, but in their memories, we must fight this fight to help others not go through this gut-wrenching pain.
I have good and bad days, like you. I agree that having other children has helped, but I feel a hole in my life that nothing can ever fill. It feels like I have lost an arm, or leg, or my heart. Children are all different, and he was not his brother or his sister. I miss him desperately, most minutes of every day, actually. I function because life demands it of me. But I wonder if I will ever truly be joyful again.
I hope you find some solace in this organization. If there is anything I can do to help, please let me know.
DM
Posted by simon levane on February 8, 2006, at 21:32:45
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on February 6, 2006, at 9:44:43
> Speaking to you here has helped D.M.
they say that time helps to ease the day to day pain, though it never ever goes away.. Someone told me that it scars over for a time, but never truly heals. It is a horror to realize that.
I wish I had had other children. Thinking in the way we think of things that perhaps it could have prevented the tragedy that a sibling might have helped and realizing that it might have made no difference at all, knowing that it often makes no difference when children are unwell and the help is incompetent.
Our link is at this post it seems. Perhaps we might find way to keep touch by e-mail.. though I certainly understand the need for privacy and confidentiality and appreciate this. It enables me to write openly.
take care, be well..
SimonSimon,
>
> And too late for my son, but in their memories, we must fight this fight to help others not go through this gut-wrenching pain.
>
> I have good and bad days, like you. I agree that having other children has helped, but I feel a hole in my life that nothing can ever fill. It feels like I have lost an arm, or leg, or my heart. Children are all different, and he was not his brother or his sister. I miss him desperately, most minutes of every day, actually. I function because life demands it of me. But I wonder if I will ever truly be joyful again.
>
> I hope you find some solace in this organization. If there is anything I can do to help, please let me know.
>
> DM
Posted by Phillipa on February 8, 2006, at 22:00:16
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on February 8, 2006, at 21:32:45
Babblemail each other and exchange E-mail addresses. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 9, 2006, at 16:48:57
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on February 8, 2006, at 21:32:45
Simon,
Working on update of e-mail capabilities. Not having much luck. Hang on, please. Don't assume I don't want to e-mail.
--Devastated Mom
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 12, 2006, at 9:01:24
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on February 8, 2006, at 21:32:45
My ultimate goal is to forgive the doctor. I'm so far from there right now that I don't know how ridiculous that hope is. I blame her at least 85%. He had some depression, but she exponentially increased it with effexor. This is as honest as I can be; I know this sounds a little counter-intuitive and maybe even impossible. I don't think I will ever stop missing my son, who he was, who he was becoming and who he would have been.
Posted by simon levane on February 12, 2006, at 19:06:19
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on February 12, 2006, at 9:01:24
Dear D.M.
I do feel much the same as you do. In my case it is more than one doctor. It is many doctors who failed my daughter. The only way this will change is for there to be better education of doctors in dealing with suicide risk. Most of them are really poorly educated in this area and operate from a state of ego that verges on "godlike".
I have just heard too too many cases in which anti-depressants are prescribed without giving family some guidelines. Perhaps this may change, but it doesn't seem to be changing. Advocating for this change is very important.
but my heart breaks when I read your words and I think of my own naivete in thinking that a doctor could not prescribe a dangerous drug or be unaware of risk of a variety of drugs to a young person at risk.
Simon
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 13, 2006, at 5:25:09
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on February 12, 2006, at 19:06:19
Simon,
You have been experiencing this longer than I have. Any ideas on the most effective way to attempt to change this systemically? I think it may take some political lobbying, but I am not really sure where to start. I really would not want to see this happen to anyone else.Anyone else have ideas?
-DM
Posted by linkadge on February 13, 2006, at 20:16:13
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on February 13, 2006, at 5:25:09
If you thought that I could ever be of any use in your plight, just let me know. Like I said, I may be about the same age as your son, and Effexor certainly made me suicidal. Let me know if my experience could ever be of use.
Linkadge
Posted by simon levane on February 13, 2006, at 20:42:16
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by linkadge on February 13, 2006, at 20:16:13
I think writing a letter to your son's doctor expressing your concern .. but be careful... doctors are really "freaky" when it comes to criticism, and they can sometimes claim "libel"... but if you write the letter in very careful terms... that may have some impact .. if that doctor has the moral fibre and courage to admit that she may have done better .
Linkadge, explaining what happened to you might help us understand what happened to our children. In my daughter's case there were other factors in play, but I struggle with whether that awful drug was the tipping point, and I agonize over not being told or being aware, and in fact, of being given a false sense of security that she was not being given something that could cost her life.
Simon
Posted by simon levane on February 13, 2006, at 20:50:02
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on February 13, 2006, at 5:25:09
There is a website of a parent who lost his son to suicide, and he is very very active in trying to help prevent this from happening to others. I don't have the link here but will send it to you and post it here tomorrow..
Perhaps you may find a way to help others through this link. In our country there is an active survivor's advocacy group that contributes to educational material as well as actively lobbying in different ways to raise awareness. When I see all the available material that was there before my daughter's death and realize that all of her medical caregivers truly failed to educate us in the risks, it makes me sick.. That is the primary way to help prevent this from happening to others. To raise awareness and education. It is needed in the school system, among all General Practictioners and Psychiatrists as well, -- they are especially complacent as I see it. My daughter saw no less than 7 different pychiatrists and I myself met with most of them as well as seeing two myself, and not one of them truly educated me or my daughter's mother in the reality of risk nor in the risk of the specific drugs. GP's in walk in clinics are sometimes just too easy to prescribe drugs to patients without asking the patient to give a reference of a previous physician before they give them tranquillizers or other psychotropic drugs without knowing the real medical history. This verges on criminal negligence but is hard to prove. Sloppy life threatening medical incompetence. That needs to be stopped by having clear guidelines for medical care.
Simon,
> You have been experiencing this longer than I have. Any ideas on the most effective way to attempt to change this systemically? I think it may take some political lobbying, but I am not really sure where to start. I really would not want to see this happen to anyone else.
>
> Anyone else have ideas?
> -DM
Posted by linkadge on February 15, 2006, at 17:22:14
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by simon levane on February 13, 2006, at 20:50:02
I don't want to sound harsh but having taken effexor, I can *definately* see how it could have pushed somebody over the edge. It made me agitated, fearfull, anxious, and caused insomnia. It increase my heartrate, and gave me a terrable inner restlessness (also known as akathesia). It made my mood swing, it made me irritable, it made me iscoalte myself, it made me paranoid. I lost my appetite on it, I even lost some hair. Most of all, It made me not give a shi* about my body, or my life.
I have taken many drugs, and effexor definately brough me within inches of shooting myself.
I don't mean to be so graphic, but I may be approximately your kids age, and if I am at all like the voice they never had. Maybe it helps some people, but the teenage brain is much different from the adult brain.
Linkadge
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 15, 2006, at 17:33:24
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor » simon levane, posted by linkadge on February 15, 2006, at 17:22:14
When my son died, I prayed for a clear dream. I wanted desperately to know what in this world could have possibly brought him to this point. You must be a part of the answer to this request. Thank you for sharing. I am grateful that you were not taken from this life in the same way. Long life to you.
Once I started reading about Effexor, I soon realized that it had more to do with the drug than with his own issues, which he was handling in a reasonable way, from what I could see. This came out of nowhere for us, and I blame the doctor. Period. No other options.
Devastated Mother
Posted by linkadge on February 15, 2006, at 20:53:09
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on February 15, 2006, at 17:33:24
The scary part is that it was so difficult to distinguish how the drug was actually be making things worse.
The way I describe it to people is with one word. Intensity. When I took effexor, I still had all of the same problems, but they seemed so much more intense. It was hard to recognize that the effexor was actually making things worse, since the problems I had were still my same old problems, but it seemed like they had been magnified a million times. When I started to taper off (on my own) it slowly felt like a giant weight was starting to be lifted off my shoulders.
For a whole 2 months on it, my sleep was so fragmented. Nightmares, would wake me up every 10 minautes. I felt completely exhausted in the morning. It just felt like a bad trip that never ended. I was told that it was my depression kicking up and the solution ??? Up the dose!Doctors are just not sensitive to these kinds of reactions. They're taught in med school or whatever that these drugs help anxiety and make people happy. Doctors would laugh at me when I told them what I suspected.
Recently, the FDA has started to come to similar conclusions, at least I felt a sence of relief, in that yes, they are starting to acknowledge that the drugs may have potential to do such things. In my own hindsight, there was no question.
Linkadge
Posted by Kneeko on February 16, 2006, at 5:54:03
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by linkadge on February 15, 2006, at 20:53:09
Sorry about what happened. At this point it most be very easy to place the blame on the companies or the doctors. Please understand that these drugs do genuinely help some people, and taking it off the market very hurtful to alot of people who are dependent on this medication. There are warnings about what can potentially happen to subsets of people and these are risks we all take when he try to get better from depression. That doesnt make anyone bad, its just the risk you take.
Numerous drugs have lead to reactions and suicides, but to take them off of the market or blame the company would result in far greater suffering for hundreds of millions of people.
MAOI's for instance many people absolutely need them to have any hope at life, even though a small number of fatal reactions have been reported. Take this into account and may your son rest in peace.
Posted by Devastated Mother on February 16, 2006, at 7:04:01
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Kneeko on February 16, 2006, at 5:54:03
Whatever. You really don't understand my issue at all. Neither Simon nor I were warned to watch our children for increased suicidality. I am just suggesting that doctors have a responsibility to do, to actually do what is in the little black box. If you can't understand that............
Posted by lifetime on February 16, 2006, at 11:19:00
In reply to Re: Suicide on Effexor, posted by Devastated Mother on February 16, 2006, at 7:04:01
To those who have lost loved ones to mood disorders,
I happened upon this thread and read through with much interest. Although “Devastated Mother” stated, “I wish people would just stop saying how sorry they are. It is so irrelevant” I can state from my own opinion that nothing could be worse in my mind than to have any loved child predecease a parent.
As a very long-time support person, caregiver, health care advocate to my spouse and activist I would like to suggest some positive approaches to some very tradgic situations. The first and most important approach which I advocate for is the education of the patient and his/her support person(s) to make informed and un-coerced medical decisions in collaboration with one’s trusted, caring, compassionate, knowledgeable and licensed health care practitioner(s). While I often state when a physician hangs out their shingle to practice it does not state whether he/she graduated first or last in the class and the fact there are doctors, good doctors and better doctors.
The point I wish to make without necessarily offending anyone reading this posting is that the onus of responsibility, in my opinion, still remains with the patient and/or his/her support persons to be reasonably educated before embarking upon any medical ventures and/or the ingesting of any chemicals (medications, vitamins, minerals etc) or the utilization of any therapies and/or treatments.
The so called science of the brain is in its infancy and from my research and readings there are numerous theories as opposed to definitive answers from the professional community as it relates to the various mood disorders. I am dismayed by some of the postings for there thoughtlessness to the fact that many individuals are being helped utilizing the very same medications and/or treatments abhored by others. My spouse at one time benefitted from the use of Effexor XR. In fact at one point she was utilizing a daily megadose of 900 mg per day but the refractory syndrome reoccured and we went on to research and utilize other treatment options. The point which I want to make here is that we were reasonably knowledgeable and informed before making any decision to preceed and I being a reasonably knowledgeable support person carefully monitored and observed her mood state as I have done through these many years. Mood disorders in and of itself are potentially life threatening without any kind of intervention so to just throw out and condemn a treatment option that may very well be beneficial for someone else is unconscionable to me. In fact, I am an advocate for all treatment options for the use in mood disorders providing one is educated before hand to the side-effects and potential risks. There is also an old adage which I shall paraphrase, “Ignorance in the eyes of the law is no excuse.”
To those family members having lost a loved one to any of these disorders you have my sincere and heartfelt condolences while I continue in my efforts to keep my spouse alive knowing that one cannot prevent a determined individual from committing suicide and also maintaining my advocacy and activism. So while the choices to treat these illnesses are somewhat limited they are the best we have at the moment also knowing the fact that no two individuals respond exactly the same to medications, treatments, therapies, surgeries etc what one can do is to advocate for education as opposed to condemnation.
Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.