![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 78. Go back in thread:
Posted by Phillipa on December 10, 2005, at 19:18:40
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.. » linkadge, posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2005, at 17:32:08
And I was about to believe what she said! What about this years flu shot and the mercury? This is something I have heard from mother's of children with autism. That innoculations containsed mercury. And their children were fine until the innoculations. At this point I don't know what to believe. So is she saying that because I take luvox I am taking PCP? Boy this woman is confusing me. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2005, at 20:17:01
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.. » Larry Hoover, posted by Phillipa on December 10, 2005, at 19:18:40
> And I was about to believe what she said! What about this years flu shot and the mercury?
There is not enough mercury in a flu shot to cause any concern. You get more mercury from your amalgam fillings every time you drink a hot beverage. If mercury worries you, take selenium. It binds mercury permanently, ending any health threat. End of story.
> This is something I have heard from mother's of children with autism. That innoculations containsed mercury. And their children were fine until the innoculations.
Coincidental correlation. The supposedly offending innoculation, the MMP, is usually given at about 18 months of age. Autism spectrum disorders are usually diagnosed no earlier than around the 24th month. It's natural for human brains to say A caused B, when in fact, B simply followed A.
If you look at massive epidemiological studies of all children in Denmark (where they record everything about everybody), there is no evidence to support a link. They stopped using Thimerosal (mercury-preservative) vaccines in 1990, and autism rates continued to climb. Abstracts, and full-text link, at bottom.
I'm sorry for anyone having to deal with developmental disorders like autism, but innoculations are not to blame. In fact, there is not one single medical advance of greater benefit to mankind than innoculation. Seen any child in an iron lung lately (polio), or dying from heart failure (rheumatic fever), or deaf or blind from meningitis? Well, you will, if people don't start innoculating their precious children again.
> At this point I don't know what to believe.
I trust the science, myself. Child mortality used to be 50%. It's not, any longer.
> So is she saying that because I take luvox I am taking PCP?
That's what she's saying you're as good as doing, yes.
> Boy this woman is confusing me.
She scares me. That anybody might listen.
> Fondly, Phillipa
Lar
Abstracts re: lack of association between thimerosal and autism
JAMA. 2003 Oct 1;290(13):1763-6.
Association between thimerosal-containing vaccine and autism.Hviid A, Stellfeld M, Wohlfahrt J, Melbye M.
Danish Epidemiology Science Centre, Department of Epidemiology Research, Statens Serum Institut, Copenhagen, Denmark. aii@ssi.dk
CONTEXT: Mercuric compounds are nephrotoxic and neurotoxic at high doses. Thimerosal, a preservative used widely in vaccine formulations, contains ethylmercury. Thus it has been suggested that childhood vaccination with thimerosal-containing vaccine could be causally related to neurodevelopmental disorders such as autism. OBJECTIVE: To determine whether vaccination with a thimerosal-containing vaccine is associated with development of autism. DESIGN, SETTING, AND PARTICIPANTS: Population-based cohort study of all children born in Denmark from January 1, 1990, until December 31, 1996 (N = 467 450) comparing children vaccinated with a thimerosal-containing vaccine with children vaccinated with a thimerosal-free formulation of the same vaccine. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Rate ratio (RR) for autism and other autistic-spectrum disorders, including trend with dose of ethylmercury. RESULTS: During 2 986 654 person-years, we identified 440 autism cases and 787 cases of other autistic-spectrum disorders. The risk of autism and other autistic-spectrum disorders did not differ significantly between children vaccinated with thimerosal-containing vaccine and children vaccinated with thimerosal-free vaccine (RR, 0.85 [95% confidence interval [CI], 0.60-1.20] for autism; RR, 1.12 [95% CI, 0.88-1.43] for other autistic-spectrum disorders). Furthermore, we found no evidence of a dose-response association (increase in RR per 25 microg of ethylmercury, 0.98 [95% CI, 0.90-1.06] for autism and 1.03 [95% CI, 0.98-1.09] for other autistic-spectrum disorders). CONCLUSION: The results do not support a causal relationship between childhood vaccination with thimerosal-containing vaccines and development of autistic-spectrum disorders.
Pediatrics. 2003 Sep;112(3 Pt 1):604-6.
full-text link: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/112/3/604
Thimerosal and the occurrence of autism: negative ecological evidence from Danish population-based data.Madsen KM, Lauritsen MB, Pedersen CB, Thorsen P, Plesner AM, Andersen PH, Mortensen PB.
Danish Epidemiology Science Centre, Department of Epidemiology and Social Medicine, University of Aarhus, Denmark. kmm@dadlnet.dk
OBJECTIVE: It has been suggested that thimerosal, a mercury-containing preservative in vaccines, is a risk factor for the development of autism. We examined whether discontinuing the use of thimerosal-containing vaccines in Denmark led to a decrease in the incidence of autism. DESIGN: Analysis of data from the Danish Psychiatric Central Research Register recording all psychiatric admissions since 1971, and all outpatient contacts in psychiatric departments in Denmark since 1995. PATIENTS: All children between 2 and 10 years old who were diagnosed with autism during the period from 1971-2000. OUTCOME MEASURES: Annual and age-specific incidence for first day of first recorded admission with a diagnosis of autism in children between 2 and 10 years old. RESULTS: A total of 956 children with a male-to-female ratio of 3.5:1 had been diagnosed with autism during the period from 1971-2000. There was no trend toward an increase in the incidence of autism during that period when thimerosal was used in Denmark, up through 1990. From 1991 until 2000 the incidence increased and continued to rise after the removal of thimerosal from vaccines, including increases among children born after the discontinuation of thimerosal. CONCLUSIONS: The discontinuation of thimerosal-containing vaccines in Denmark in 1992 was followed by an increase in the incidence of autism. Our ecological data do not support a correlation between thimerosal-containing vaccines and the incidence of autism.
Posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 20:25:08
In reply to Re: What! » flmm, posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2005, at 17:10:55
SSRI's can act as potent agonists of the 5-ht2 receptor complex systmem.
Doesn't anybody recall me, posting last year about how celexa made the railroad crossing bars look like soldiers about to attack me.
I started to smile back at the car faces since they looked too human to resist.
Visual disortions on SSRI's are more common than you may think.
Wasn't it spriggy who also had visual halucinations as a result of SSRIs ?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 21:07:06
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.. » linkadge, posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2005, at 17:32:08
>Excepting serotonin syndrome, no demonstrated >condition of excess serotonin is known.
High serotonin *is* implicated in many disorders. From migrane to anorexia. It just depends on who you talk to, and what research you read. Have you not read some of the actual findings relating depression and the SERT transporter?
Apparently, people with the short-short varient of the serotonin transporter have a "higher" lifetime risk of depression. The short-short varient of the serotonin gene codes for a lower reputake of serotonin. These people demonstrate higher levels of serotonin due to this varient in the serotonin transpoter.But please, don't just believe me. Read this link.
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/001611.html
The SERT transporter is the enzyme that SSRI drugs work to inhibit. Here is direct evidence, linking *low* activity of the serotonin transporter, to depression, and binge drinking.
So I restate. Some research shows that high serotonin is implicated in certain disease states.
>Not high serotonin levels. High activity at >specific serotonin receptors.Just like schizophrenia may be related to high dopamine at certiain receptors, right ? Although, I don't know of too many people immune to stimulant psychosis.
>And anxiolytic. Depends on the receptor.
You are right, but for many, the net effect of taking an SSRI, is not anxiolytic.
>MAO-A is not specific to serotonin. Flooding the >brain with free serotonin does not mimic any >known physiological process.
Taking LSD, doesn't mimic any physiological process. I don't know what you are trying to say?
>Then that is not a serotonin effect. It's a drug >toxic effect.
Thats exactly it. Breggin coined it, not me. "Brain disabling treatments". Rember, I am referring to SSRI's.
Like I said, taking melatonin with fluoxetine largely nullifies the antidepressant responce. That is because, it restors sleep, and does not let the drug interfere with sleep cycles to create its effect. SSRI's simply mimic the antidepressant effects of sleep deprivation.
?? What is premature aging?Lets not be difficult. I think there was an X-Files on it.
>I'm sorry that happened, but LSD is quite a >different drug.There are many similarities, and I am not the first to notice, or propose that.
>I try to stay away from these mechanistic >arguments, because they require that you believe >the premise to believe the conclusion. Petitio >principii.It's quite simple. The higher the functional agonism at 5-ht2a receptors. The higher the probability of visual disturbances as a side effect.
>She doesn't make those arguments. You did.No, I didn't make that connection. She has made it her job to try and explain some of the behaviors that have resulted from the use of the drugs. I am to suppose that her attemps to liken the effects of SSRI's to that of harsher drugs has no relavance to this?
>In the very next breath, she argues that SSRIs >are prophecied in the Bible, and I just stopped >listening at that point.
I would stop listening too. But that doesn't mean I would throw the baby out with the bathwater. It is too bad that the sensationalists are the only ones who get the attention. Goodness knows there are more sensable people saying the same thing.
>Please try to separate from the emotional >appeals, with seemingly plausible arguments, >based on zero evidence. The woman scares me.
Zero evidence? Now that is kind of talk scares me.
Linakdge
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2005, at 21:07:28
In reply to Re: What!, posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 20:25:08
> Visual disortions on SSRI's are more common than you may think.
Or, perhaps less common than do you? I don't know.
Really, this is not the way to try and understand this better. I find only a single paper with a case report (no abstract) in my search of Pubmed, and only non-specific reference as an infrequent occurrence (defined as occurring in less than 1%), in a few drug monographs.
I've had visual disturbances from pharmaceutical drugs, and there was no resemblence to hallucinogens (mescaline, LSD), despite the fact that hallucination might be used to describe the occurrence.
I want to emphasize, link, I'm not trying to argue that there aren't problems with these drugs. I have a problem with (not a doctor of medicine but philosophy) Ann Blake Tracy.
Lar
Posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 21:16:57
In reply to Re: What! » linkadge, posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2005, at 21:07:28
For goodness sake. England thought enough of the data connecting SSRI's to suicidal behavior to make significant changes to their prescribing habits for SSRI's in children.
Linkadge
Posted by spriggy on December 10, 2005, at 22:26:20
In reply to Re: What!, posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 21:16:57
I'm glad to know I am not alone.I only hallucinated one time in my life (as a kid with strep throat and HIGh fever) until I went on Lexapro.
I had a visual hallucination (actually two of them) while on Lexapro.
I saw a banner hanging from my ceiling that read " HOMEWORK." I actually stood up on my couch to remove the banner when I found out it wasn't even there..
Then, once laying in bed, I asked my husband to turn off the bright neon green lights behind our door-- to which he replied, " HUH?" in a very panicked tone! Because of course, there was no green neon light!
THEN.. I actually sat on my couch and audibly heard a full marching band come through my living room.
I completely tripped/wigged out on SSRI. I doubt I WILL EVER try anything in that family again because of how bad my experience was.
Posted by spriggy on December 10, 2005, at 22:33:33
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.. » Phillipa, posted by Larry Hoover on December 10, 2005, at 20:17:01
Sorry Lar, I appreciate you so much (and think you are wonderfuL). Although I will be the first to confess I don't know nearly half as much as you do..
I DO know for certain what I watched/saw with my own eyes happen to my own child.
COMPLETELY normal child; all medical records show he was fine.
Received his vaccines ( 5 in one day). He ran 102 fever, chronic diarrhea, dehydrated, had to be hospitalized... He stopped speaking, waving, smiling.. in a nutshell my son stopped completely!
Found out through vaccine records that he received over 60 micrograms of mercury that day- he weighed 23 pounds. Do you think that is within the EPA's safety limit for exposure??
Nope.
My son was bombarded with a neurotoxin before he turned 2.
And oddly enough, when we began the process of removing mercury (chelation) he began to speak.
Strange coincidence?
Posted by jamestheyonger on December 10, 2005, at 22:58:46
In reply to Okay about autism and mercury.., posted by spriggy on December 10, 2005, at 22:33:33
Most vaccines no longer contain Thimerosal, the source of Mercury:
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm#1.
Given the huge number of people vaccinated in the past why do not more have autisim ? Common
contact lens solutions contain Thimerosal amoung other products. Many vaccines never contained Thimerosal and today most do not. There have been allergic reactions to Thimerosal.http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm
There is a strong genetic link in Autisim, it seem there is a hig corralation to having some genes and Autisim:
Posted by willyee on December 10, 2005, at 23:32:22
In reply to *DON'T MISS THIS* - Listen to Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.., posted by ReadersLeaders on December 10, 2005, at 1:26:01
Its so easy to find flaws with the drugs we have,and so easy to make what your selling look like a miracle cure,BUT the reason we tolerate any of these drugs is because mostly everything else is snake oil,this group here is gonna catch anything effective,it wont last long without being discovered,thats why i pass by here.
Lets not forget these drugs are crossing into the brain and altering it,but we choose to accept this as it does benifit a lot of people.
Im sick of theorys,hers vs pro ssris,when i personaly feel the truth lays way deep in a part of the brain we just cant examine yet.We run test,and see all these imbalances of a depressed person to a non-depressed person,but ive seen imbalances of chemicals,nutrients,aminos nuerons ,brain wave activity and so on,.......i think all this leads us to is the finalaztion we all know,a depressed persons brain is not functioning at optimal levels,and does it surprise anyone that if examined the end result of that wont be a very ubalanced brain,inlcuding all various type of unbalances?
She isnt who she says,and that i dont think is fair,to imply her credittanials are more than they are to evoke scare tactics which is what she is doing,scare tactics to ever so lightly promote herself and products.
I have a lot of articles that show collegage studies done one after another showing MAJOR differecnes,imbalances of inhibitory amino acid ratios to stimulatory ones in depressed/non depressed people.Certain ones constantly showed up greatly imblanced,glutamtic acid,taurine etc .Anyone who really has a good clue on whats going on i believe the average person here will not even be able to talk to,they will talk real scieance and leave us scratching our head,not talk about serotion constantly,its already known ssris affect dopamine etc as well.
There are only a few peopl here i believe can have a true understanding of that kind of scieance,exlcuding myself and many people here we need to understand the brain is simply not simple,its complex and treating it is not gonna be easy ever.I dont know im ramling,but how many people have to try and steal from us when we are down and out,to make money off this disease u have to have a rotten black soul.
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 11, 2005, at 10:14:54
In reply to Re: What!, posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 21:16:57
> For goodness sake. England thought enough of the data connecting SSRI's to suicidal behavior to make significant changes to their prescribing habits for SSRI's in children.
>
> LinkadgeThat was a precautionary act, due to lack of safety data. The recommendation was for closer monitoring, something I also have long advocated, both for adults and children.
Just last month, a major report was tabled.
Neuropsychopharmacology advance online publication 23 November 2005;
doi:10.1038/sj.npp.1300958ACNP Task Force Report on SSRIs and Suicidal Behavior in Youth
Conclusion:
The Task Force concluded that SSRIs and other new generation antidepressant drugs, in aggregate, are associated with a small increase in the risk of AE reports of suicidal thinking or suicide attempts in youth. The evidence for this comes from the FDA meta-analyses of all pediatric RCTs of antidepressants. This effect is quite variable across SSRIs and it is not clear if that variance is a measurement error or represents a real difference between medications. Systematic questionnaire data do not identify a risk for more suicidal ideation on SSRIs, raising concerns over ascertainment artifacts in the AE report method. Three other lines of evidence in youth, epidemiology, and autopsy studies, and recent cohort surveys (Valuck et al, 2004; Simon et al, 2005), do not support the hypothesis that SSRIs induce suicidal acts and suicide, instead indicating a possible beneficial effect, and that a negligible number of youth suicides are taking antidepressants at the time of death.
I did a similar review some months ago, and came to an identical set of conclusions. Adverse event reporting in clinical trials falsely suggested suicidal acts were occurring, due to systematic methodological deficiencies. Autopsy data do not support the theory that SSRIs contribute to youth suicide. In fact, net reductions have been clearly demonstrated.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 11, 2005, at 10:44:52
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.., posted by linkadge on December 10, 2005, at 21:07:06
> >Excepting serotonin syndrome, no demonstrated >condition of excess serotonin is known.
> So I restate. Some research shows that high serotonin is implicated in certain disease states.
We're arguing a semantic distinction, about our interpretation of another person's words.
Localized serotinergic activation can be, on a relative scale, high or low. I am arguing against a global "elevated serotonin" state, as postulated by the under-educated Tracy.
> >MAO-A is not specific to serotonin. Flooding the >brain with free serotonin does not mimic any >known physiological process.
>
> Taking LSD, doesn't mimic any physiological process. I don't know what you are trying to say?We can mess with the brain, with drugs, and produce unnatural states. Tracy was implying an innate condition, "excess serotonin", or however she phrased it, was the underlying etiological factor in mental diseases of all sorts.
It is a preposterous theory, with no evidence.
> SSRI's simply mimic the antidepressant effects of sleep deprivation.Whether that's your theory or hers, I disagree. I don't think anyone knows the mechanism, but it most certainly won't be as simple as that.
> >?? What is premature aging?
>
> Lets not be difficult. I think there was an X-Files on it.It's a meaningless phrase. That's my point. It contributes nothing, except perhaps, hooking the naive mind.
> >I try to stay away from these mechanistic >arguments, because they require that you believe >the premise to believe the conclusion. Petitio >principii.
>
> It's quite simple. The higher the functional agonism at 5-ht2a receptors. The higher the probability of visual disturbances as a side effect.Which differs so substantially across the population it is more reasonably a genetic trait (susceptibility) than a drug effect.
Exceptional cases always occur. Sample enough population, and you're going to find outliers. How to treat those cases is a matter of opinion, and we shan't settle that by arguing.
I am an outlier. Me. I've had very bizarre drug effects, when compared to normalized data. My bizarre response to a drug demonstrates nothing, other than I should avoid the drug.
> >She doesn't make those arguments. You did.
>
> No, I didn't make that connection. She has made it her job to try and explain some of the behaviors that have resulted from the use of the drugs.She wants to blame the drug for all aberrant behaviour. And I'm still waiting for the explanation part.
> I am to suppose that her attemps to liken the effects of SSRI's to that of harsher drugs has no relavance to this?
Her generalizations amount to hyperbole without any reasonable support.
"If feeling depressed.....injecting one-quarter gram of PCP.....will have same effect on body and mind.....as Prozac."
That is false, bizarre, fear-mongering, meaningless.
> >In the very next breath, she argues that SSRIs >are prophecied in the Bible, and I just stopped >listening at that point.
>
> I would stop listening too.Oh, but you snipped the part about "the gummy gooey glossy substance". I thought that was so relevant.
> But that doesn't mean I would throw the baby out with the bathwater.
This woman makes what amount to emotional appeals. Her theories contain vague expressions which can be taken in many ways. There is a plausibilty to what she says. But nowhere, does she offer the data, the observations, the physical evidence, to support even her core allegations. What baby?
> It is too bad that the sensationalists are the only ones who get the attention.
As I said earlier, let the data speak for themselves.
> Goodness knows there are more sensable people saying the same thing.
No, not that I've seen.
> >Please try to separate from the emotional >appeals, with seemingly plausible arguments, >based on zero evidence. The woman scares me.
>
> Zero evidence?Would you kindly present her evidence? I've seen none. I am totally serious.
> Now that is kind of talk scares me.
> LinakdgePerhaps we should agree to disagree?
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 11, 2005, at 10:48:25
In reply to Re: What! Yes it was me! » linkadge, posted by spriggy on December 10, 2005, at 22:26:20
> I completely tripped/wigged out on SSRI. I doubt I WILL EVER try anything in that family again because of how bad my experience was.
I think that's an excellent conclusion to reach, based on your experience.
I experienced manic psychosis on Luvox. I've use other SSRIs since. With some caution.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 11, 2005, at 11:03:53
In reply to Okay about autism and mercury.., posted by spriggy on December 10, 2005, at 22:33:33
> Sorry Lar, I appreciate you so much (and think you are wonderfuL). Although I will be the first to confess I don't know nearly half as much as you do..
Sprig, you don't need to qualify your remarks. I won't respect you less, or care about you less, no matter what might come from this discussion. No matter what you might think about what I think.
> I DO know for certain what I watched/saw with my own eyes happen to my own child.
I know you did.
> COMPLETELY normal child; all medical records show he was fine.
>
> Received his vaccines ( 5 in one day).I'm really interested in what he got. Do you want to email me?
> He ran 102 fever, chronic diarrhea, dehydrated, had to be hospitalized... He stopped speaking, waving, smiling.. in a nutshell my son stopped completely!
My heart goes out to you, watching that happen. Doing what a loving parent would do, to protect their child against serious disease. And then, powerless, watching this unfold.
> Found out through vaccine records that he received over 60 micrograms of mercury that day- he weighed 23 pounds. Do you think that is within the EPA's safety limit for exposure??
>
> Nope.You're absolutely correct.
>
> My son was bombarded with a neurotoxin before he turned 2.
>
> And oddly enough, when we began the process of removing mercury (chelation) he began to speak.
>
> Strange coincidence?No, I don't believe in coincidences.
Nor am I, in any way, suggesting that what happened to your son was not related to the vaccination process, and/or the Thimerosal preservative.
The evidence I presented was population data. It neither proves nor disproves individual cases.
I can only say that I cannot imagine having to see this happen to my own child. And how sad I am to learn that it happened to yours.
I'm an environmental toxicologist. I've spent many hours looking at this issue. But I would never use my training or my experience to disrespect another person's experience.
Lar
Posted by jay on December 11, 2005, at 11:45:56
In reply to Re: What! » linkadge, posted by Larry Hoover on December 11, 2005, at 10:14:54
FWIW...I would go as far to say that there may be a *good* chance SSRI's cause suicidal ideation in beginners of the med. But, it is definitely something that does not last! There are also some easy, simple remedies. I've been on and off both Prozac and Effexor for many years (plus all other SSRI's) , and only had problems with really bad anxiety when started. In fact, that anxiety is what led to 'suicidal ideation', et al. Very simply, stepping up a benzo dose and/or adding an antipsychotic has been shown to pretty much eliminate this problem. Once the person is adjusted to the SSRI/SNRI dose, they may be able to lower or even come off the other meds.
Quite simply, it's just taking a precaution by adding a counter-balancing med. The atypical antipsychotics have been shown to have anti-suicidal properties on their own.(I think clozapine is the 'gold standard'...but it translates to other atypicals as well.) Just look it up on Medline.
Just IMHO...
Jay
Posted by Phillipa on December 11, 2005, at 11:55:29
In reply to Re: Okay about autism and mercury.. » spriggy, posted by Larry Hoover on December 11, 2005, at 11:03:53
This is the best discussion to hit the board in a long time. Fondly, Phillipa ps I wish I had all your knowledge so I could participate more.
Posted by gibber on December 11, 2005, at 21:47:35
In reply to *DON'T MISS THIS* - Listen to Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.., posted by ReadersLeaders on December 10, 2005, at 1:26:01
This whole discussion strikes me as so similar to Dr. Breggin. Jamestheyonger posted a great link to an article about Breggin that I'll post below if you didn't catch it. I really wonder what motivates people (doctors?) like Tracy and Breggin. First of all it shows that they greatly misunderstand or deny the facts and are somehow afraid of simply the idea of pychiatric medications. I few years ago I may have taken people like this a little seriously and spent some time researching their remedies. Thanks to boards like this and my own research I can dismiss people like that. I recall reading about some doctor believed all mental illness was caused by bacterial infection. In some ways the people who challenge us just make us stronger, but these two doctors? don't help to reduce the lingering stigma of what I believe is a physiological condition, not to mention delaying the opportunity to find the right treatment.
Breggin article:
http://web.archive.org/web/20000105033326/chadd.org/Russ-review.htm
Posted by jamestheyonger on December 11, 2005, at 23:12:30
In reply to Tracy, Breggin, and other quacks..., posted by gibber on December 11, 2005, at 21:47:35
I read a study on what makes a sucessful hoax;
people seem to believe statements that are somewhat grandiose, like Prozac and PCP have the same effects or someone you do not know from Nigeria wants to give you lots of $$$ if they can use your bank account. Here is some more stuff:
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/21stC/issue-3.4/valhouli.html"Another reason people find pseudoscience plausible is a cognitive ability to "see" relationships that don't exist. "We have an adaptive reflex to make sense of the world, and there is a strong motivation to do this," says Lilienfeld. "We need this ability, because the world is such a complex and chaotic place, but sometimes it can backfire." This outgrowth of our normal capacity for pattern recognition accounts for the "face on Mars" (a group of rocks that allegedly resembles a face) or the belief that a full moon causes an increase in the crime rate. When people believe in something strongly--whether it is an image on Mars or a causal interpretation of a chronological association--they are unlikely to let it go, even if it has been repeatedly discounted"
Posted by spriggy on December 12, 2005, at 19:08:14
In reply to Gullibility, posted by jamestheyonger on December 11, 2005, at 23:12:30
You mean that's not true about letting someone from Nicarauga use my account and then they give me lots of money??????
NOW you tell me....
ROFL
Posted by jamestheyonger on December 12, 2005, at 19:33:26
In reply to Re: Gullibility WHAT?? » jamestheyonger, posted by spriggy on December 12, 2005, at 19:08:14
Somethimes the scammers get scammed:
Posted by mknight on December 14, 2005, at 19:13:04
In reply to Re: Gullibility WHAT??, posted by jamestheyonger on December 12, 2005, at 19:33:26
Eleven years ago I had a clouded right eye for 10 minutes and the next day the worst headache I have ever had. I have not been the same since. I feel like I am on marijuana or mild mescaline all of the time. Four years later, fatigue and exhaustion set in. Paxil was the first drug tried. It was to me exactly like taking LSD. I did not leave the house for 2 weeks. Other SSRIs like Zoloft, Prozac, and Celexa are not that bad but they do make me more stoned than I already feel. Supposedly halucinogenic drugs stimulate the 5HT2a receptor which some psychopharmacologists say SSRIs do also. So I tried a 5HT2a antagonist, Mirtazapine. Did not do that much and the sedation did not help my fatigue. Most drugs that antagonize 5HT2a are also sedating. Wellbutrin seems to pull me up from the stoned feeling a little and helps with the fatigue but then makes me angry, explosive, and aggressive. I have yet to try stimulants or APs. Any and all thoughts and ideas would be appreciated.
Posted by linkadge on December 14, 2005, at 20:17:49
In reply to Re: What! Yes it was me! » linkadge, posted by spriggy on December 10, 2005, at 22:26:20
Some people on this board wouldn't believe you. They might say something like, well the drug just triggered something.
I am in favor of people questioning the safety of these drugs. They may not be as safe as doctors suggest.
I, nor Dr. Tracy, are the first to compare antidepressants to recreational drugs.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 14, 2005, at 20:33:23
In reply to Re: What! » linkadge, posted by Larry Hoover on December 11, 2005, at 10:14:54
I don't think that a net reduction has been *clearly* demonstrated at all.
That is what has been argued for the past however many years.
Many authors have come to the conclusion that no such reduction has been demonstrated.http://biopsychiatry.com/suicide.html
There also exist studies that show the course of depression to be worsened by antidepressant use.
Current antidepressants reduce depression, and anxiety by creating emotional indifference.
The frontal lobe syndrome caused by SSRi's serves to disinhibit the user, making them more prone to impulsive behavior.
I don't doubt for a minaute that antidepressants can increase the likeyhood of suicide.
Dr. Tracy made a good point. The drug companies pay.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 14, 2005, at 22:05:08
In reply to Re: Dr. Tracy on SSRIs.. » linkadge, posted by Larry Hoover on December 11, 2005, at 10:44:52
>We're arguing a semantic distinction, about our >interpretation of another person's words
>Localized serotinergic activation can be, on a >relative scale, high or low. I am arguing >against a global "elevated serotonin" state, as >postulated by the under-educated Tracy.I see you did not read the link that I put up. The state that SSRI's induce would be very similar to that of an individual who posesses the double short varient of the serotonin transporter gene. Dr. Tracy argues that SSRI's cause depression and suicide. This link that I put up is research showing how lifetime depressive episodes correlate with the serotonin transporter gene. This research supports her theory that taking an SSRI (and thus lowering SERT activity) could cause depression, alcoholism etc.
>We can mess with the brain, with drugs, and >produce unnatural states. Tracy was implying an >innate condition, "excess serotonin", or however >she phrased it, was the underlying etiological >factor in mental diseases of all sorts.That may be. If we discovered the antidepressant effects of Tianeptine beofore that of SSRI's we might have the same hypothesis.
>Whether that's your theory or hers, I disagree. >I don't think anyone knows the mechanism, but it >most certainly won't be as simple as that.Many doctors think that the rem sleep depriving mechanisms are key force in their behavioral effects. Quite a few agents (for instance Surmontil) which have no effect on monoamine uptake, but do reduce REM sleep, are effective antidepressants.
>It's a meaningless phrase. That's my point. It >contributes nothing, except perhaps, hooking the >naive mind.If any drug were capable of mimicing some the catastrophic alterations in cognition an sentience that are evident in old age, I'd like to know about it. For instance, smoking will age you prematurely. Knowing that is not meaningless.
>Which differs so substantially across the >population it is more reasonably a genetic trait >(susceptibility) than a drug effect.I was not the first one to suggest the connection between the subjective effects of antidpressants and LSD. Many experienced LSD users have likened the effects of LSD to antidepressants. Studies show that fluoxetine potentiates the discrimintive stimulus effects of LSD.
See the abstract at:
http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/prozac-lsd.htm
These reports are more than just coincidences. There are biochemical reasons that the drugs can produce similar states of mind. And that is important information, when faced with the task of sorting out some of the behavioral states that have been linked to SSRI use.
>I am an outlier. Me. I've had very bizarre drug >effects, when compared to normalized data. My >bizarre response to a drug demonstrates nothing,
>other than I should avoid the drug.But we are talking about experiences that have happened to more than just one person. We are also talking about experiences that may be partially explained by studies like the one above which show how these two agents can produce similar behavioral states.
>She wants to blame the drug for all aberrant >behaviour. And I'm still waiting for the >explanation part.And I am still waiting for the explaination for how antidepressants actually help depression. Since there is not much of a solid theory for that, I can't pick too many holes in arguing the
negation.>Her generalizations amount to hyperbole without >any reasonable support.
Hyperbole without any reasonable support? We've got two drugs. One inhibits the reuptake of serotonin, and the other increases the uptake of serotonin. Both are "effective antidepressants".
Vitamin C either prevents scurvey, cures scurvey, or neither.
>That is false, bizarre, fear-mongering, >meaningless.Fear mongering, maybe. I see it as a necessary counterballence, in a world of "pop this". After 8 months off of 100mg of zoloft, I am still relearning how to walk properly.
>Oh, but you snipped the part about "the gummy >gooey glossy substance". I thought that was so >relevant.
Like I said. I don't agree with everything she says. But I do agree with her main argument that SSRI's can sometimes induce abnormal and frankly dangerous states of mind.
>This woman makes what amount to emotional >appeals. Her theories contain vague expressions >which can be taken in many ways. There is a >plausibilty to what she says. But nowhere, does >she offer the data, the observations, the >physical evidence, to support even her core >allegations. What baby?Thats not true. For example, she talks about how the worker for Lilly ended up resigning due to her decision to make a firm stance against the safety of SSRI's.
She also referres to studies in which patients given SSRI's reported increased hostility and suicidal behavior.
If forget her name, but she referred to one of the key scientists who was involved in the idenficiation of the serotonin reuptake mechanism, who referred to the SSRI's as monster drugs. These are real people, with real credability who agree with her on different levels.
>As I said earlier, let the data speak for >themselves.Let it.
>No, not that I've seen.
Ok, maybe not the exact same things. But ther "are" very intellegent people who do not agree that these drugs cary the safety that is assumed by most doctors. There are intellegent people who believe that the drugs can induce suicidal thinking and behavior. Do you want to know who some of these people are? There are scientist out there right now who are developing animal models of antidepressant induced mania and rapid cylcing. Some of this research is on www.neuransmitter.net. While Dr. Tracy is extreme. I don't thing she is out of the ballpark.
>Would you kindly present her evidence? I've seen >none. I am totally serious.Well, for starters, she said that SSRI's can induce psychotic states. I mentioned above some information on researchers who are studing the propensity of SSRI's to induce mania. Researchers create links between some of the genes affected by stimulants, and antidepressants, to try and sort out some of the findings. These are obviously *very expensive* studies to undertake, and would not be done if there was indeed "no evidence"
>Perhaps we should agree to disagree?
I am happy with anyone who agrees that the safety of SSRI's is not a closed case.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 14, 2005, at 22:06:33
In reply to Re: What! Yes it was me! » spriggy, posted by Larry Hoover on December 11, 2005, at 10:48:25
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