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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by KaraS on August 13, 2005, at 15:14:54
In reply to Re: Dexedrine update » KaraS, posted by ed_uk on August 12, 2005, at 1:22:25
> Hi K!
>
> >Might a calcium channel blocker induce depression?
>
> Calcium channel blockers have occasionally been associated with depression, although (probably) not as often as beta blockers.
Dr. E. doesn't believe that beta blockers cause depression. He said the studies showing that were done on very sick heart patients. I think he may be an extreme optimist who doesn't want to believe the negative risks of some medications.>
> >Or destabilize someone who is bipolar?
>
> Verapamil has been tried as a mood stabiliser. A few people seem to respond.Ok, so what it does works in the right direction here.
> >I shouldn't have any problems taking my thyroid medication (T4) with the Dex, should I?
>
> No, not unless you're taking so much you're hyperthyroid!
>
> Ed xxx
Thanks,Kara
xxx
Posted by KaraS on August 13, 2005, at 15:17:15
In reply to Re: Dexedrine update » KaraS, posted by ed_uk on August 12, 2005, at 1:24:45
> Hi K,
>
> >I guess I'm more physically aware of my heart beating.
>
> It could be due to anxiety about taking the Dex.
I think that's part of it but maybe not the whole story. We'll see.
> >Sounds like a paradoxical response, doesn't it? I'm really bummed.
>
> Don't come to any conclusions just get, it can take several weeks and a lot of dose/regimen titration to get the best out of a stimulant.
>
> Ed xx
Yeah, I'm still open to it working. I've had enough people tell me that that happened to them but it turned around at a higher dose.K
xx
Posted by zeugma on August 13, 2005, at 15:47:34
In reply to Re: Dexedrine update » ed_uk, posted by KaraS on August 13, 2005, at 15:17:15
> > Hi K,
> >
> > >I guess I'm more physically aware of my heart beating.
> >
> > It could be due to anxiety about taking the Dex.
>
>
> I think that's part of it but maybe not the whole story. We'll see.
>
>
> > >Sounds like a paradoxical response, doesn't it? I'm really bummed.
> >
> > Don't come to any conclusions just get, it can take several weeks and a lot of dose/regimen titration to get the best out of a stimulant.
> >
> > Ed xx
>
>
> Yeah, I'm still open to it working. I've had enough people tell me that that happened to them but it turned around at a higher dose.
>
> K
> xx
>
> Hi kara, Ed is right, stimulants don't always work immediately- the only meds I've ever taken that had that kind of immediate effect are benzos (and Strattera). Stims are the hardest meds to calibrate because there really is no way to gauge what the effective dose will be.-z
Posted by ed_uk on August 13, 2005, at 18:10:46
In reply to Re: Dexedrine update » ed_uk, posted by KaraS on August 13, 2005, at 15:14:54
Hi K,
>Dr. E. doesn't believe that beta blockers cause depression.
Well... they're certainly a lot more likely to cause fatigue than depression.
~Ed xx
Posted by KaraS on August 13, 2005, at 19:07:45
In reply to Re: Dexedrine update » KaraS, posted by zeugma on August 13, 2005, at 15:47:34
Posted by KaraS on August 13, 2005, at 19:09:34
In reply to Re: Dexedrine update » KaraS, posted by ed_uk on August 13, 2005, at 18:10:46
> Hi K,
>
> >Dr. E. doesn't believe that beta blockers cause depression.
>
> Well... they're certainly a lot more likely to cause fatigue than depression.
>
> ~Ed xx
I'm really hoping that doesn't happen. I'm sick of feeling fatigued and without energy. Maybe if the stimulant kicks in, it won't be a problem.K
xx
Posted by ed_uk on August 14, 2005, at 9:32:59
In reply to Re: Dexedrine update » ed_uk, posted by KaraS on August 13, 2005, at 19:09:34
>Maybe if the stimulant kicks in, it won't be a problem.
That's what I was thinking. Also, atenolol and bisoprolol aren't as fatiguing as propranolol. Verapamil can be useful if beta blockers cause fatigue.
Ed xx
Posted by KaraS on August 14, 2005, at 15:58:39
In reply to Re: Dexedrine update » KaraS, posted by ed_uk on August 14, 2005, at 9:32:59
> >Maybe if the stimulant kicks in, it won't be a problem.
>
> That's what I was thinking. Also, atenolol and bisoprolol aren't as fatiguing as propranolol. Verapamil can be useful if beta blockers cause fatigue.
>
> Ed xx
I have taken propanolol a few times before (a long time ago) on a PRN basis. I don't remember having any bad side effects from it. I don't know how it would have been had I been taking it regularly though. On the one hand I'm older and I seem to be more meds sensitive now. OTOH, atenolol should have less of a systemic effect than propranolol, right?k
Posted by ed_uk on August 14, 2005, at 16:39:25
In reply to Re: Dexedrine update » ed_uk, posted by KaraS on August 14, 2005, at 15:58:39
Hi K,
If you've taken propranolol without wheezing, you ought to be able to take atenolol no problem. Propranolol is one of the worst beta blockers RE bronchospasm. Atenolol is usually better tolerated than propranolol.
Ed xx
Posted by Sarah T. on August 14, 2005, at 17:20:34
In reply to Re: Dexedrine update » KaraS, posted by ed_uk on August 14, 2005, at 16:39:25
Hi there, ed,
Which one is Inderal? Is that Propanolol or atenolol? I know some musicians who used to take Inderal for stage fright. Supposedly it was very effective. I don't know whether they still use it or whether something "better" has replaced it.
Posted by KaraS on August 14, 2005, at 17:57:28
In reply to Re: beta blocker question » ed_uk, posted by Sarah T. on August 14, 2005, at 17:20:34
> Hi there, ed,
>
> Which one is Inderal? Is that Propanolol or atenolol? I know some musicians who used to take Inderal for stage fright. Supposedly it was very effective. I don't know whether they still use it or whether something "better" has replaced it.Inderol is propanolol. I don't know if atenolol is better. It's more cardio selective though.
Posted by KaraS on August 14, 2005, at 18:59:40
In reply to Re: Dexedrine update » KaraS, posted by ed_uk on August 14, 2005, at 16:39:25
> Hi K,
>
> If you've taken propranolol without wheezing, you ought to be able to take atenolol no problem. Propranolol is one of the worst beta blockers RE bronchospasm. Atenolol is usually better tolerated than propranolol.
>
> Ed xx
Hi Ed,Yes, but I took the propanolol only a few times many years ago and it was before I had any allergy problems. Still, I think you're right that I'll be fine with it. In my last appointment I told Dr. E. that my resting pulse rate has been in the 80's and 90's so told me he wants me to start on the atenolol (as I knew he would).
He thinks that the atenolol will solve almost all of my anxiety and depression problems. He said that he has never had any success treating people until he has calmed them down. He has a little poem about treating "the high before the low and the fast before the slow". I think the high here might also refer to the overly high voltage areas of the brain. Anyway, I remain skeptical. He told me Friday that "you're not that ill". I think he was trying to reassure me that he will get me feeling better soon but it was hard not to take it as an invalidation of how bad I've been feeling. It's difficult for me to believe that a beta blocker alone will give me back my motivation.
He is also thinking that once the beta blocker is in place that the 5 mgs. of dexedrine will work for me and that 5 mgs. twice a day will be sufficient for my ADD. (He didn't mention it in terms of motivation. My gut is telling me that I'll need to at least double that amount to get any kind of motivation response.) I have to add that I think he's an extreme optimist. He believes that if one is on the right medication (and I'm assuming that he includes that one is also not taking anything else that is wrong for that person that can throw their system off), that poop-out does not occur. He thinks it would be foolish of me not to take the dexedrine every day. I don't buy this, do you?
I think he's an excellent diagnostician but I do question some of his beliefs about medication. I wonder if his optimism isn't misleading him at times - i.e. perhaps he doesn't want to believe in poop-out. OTOH, he has a reputation for having success with TRDs. His whole practice is devoted to us. This is probably because he thinks outside of the box. Therefore it makes sense that his treatment would be less conventional, right? So I think I will follow most of his advice (still not sure about the daily dexedrine) and see what happens. What do you think?
K
xx
Posted by Sarah T. on August 15, 2005, at 0:18:17
In reply to Re: beta blocker question » Sarah T., posted by KaraS on August 14, 2005, at 17:57:28
Posted by ed_uk on August 15, 2005, at 2:53:27
In reply to Re: beta blocker question » ed_uk, posted by Sarah T. on August 14, 2005, at 17:20:34
Hi,
Inderal = propranolol
Tenormin = atenolol>I know some musicians who used to take Inderal for stage fright.
It didn't work for me. I used to take 15mg diazepam (Valium) for concerts. I don't play anymore though.
~Ed
Posted by ed_uk on August 15, 2005, at 3:43:41
In reply to Re: Dexedrine update » ed_uk, posted by KaraS on August 14, 2005, at 18:59:40
Hi K,
>In my last appointment I told Dr. E. that my resting pulse rate has been in the 80's and 90's so told me he wants me to start on the atenolol (as I knew he would).
Is the tachycardia bothersome? IMHO, sinus tachy can often be left untreated unless it's.......
a) uncomfortable
b) anxiety provoking
or c) severe - severe sustained tachycardia can damage the heart muscle leading to a condition called tachycardiomyopathy, which can cause heart failure. Heart failure due to tachycardiomyopathy can often be reversed by treatment with a beta blocker such as bisoprolol.
90bpm isn't really tachycardia. >100bpm is tachycardia.
I can definately see where your doc's coming from though, it is certainly possible that you'll develop troublesome tachycardia as you increase the dose of Dex. With your family history of heart disease, it makes sense to be extra cautious. IMHO, it would be best to start atenolol at 25mg/day.
>He thinks that the atenolol will solve almost all of my anxiety and depression problems.
It does sometimes help anxiety. I have a friend who finds atenolol very calming, he takes it for Ritalin-induced tachycardia! I've never heard of it helping depression.
>It's difficult for me to believe that a beta blocker alone will give me back my motivation.
It might allow you to tolerate a higher dose of Dex - which may improve your motivation.
>He thinks it would be foolish of me not to take the dexedrine every day. I don't buy this, do you?
It's always surprised me how few docs seem to prescribe 'as required' stimulants. Most people seem to take them every day.
Ed xx
Posted by KaraS on August 17, 2005, at 14:37:57
In reply to Re: Dexedrine update » KaraS, posted by ed_uk on August 15, 2005, at 3:43:41
> Hi Ed,
>
> >In my last appointment I told Dr. E. that my resting pulse rate has been in the 80's and 90's so told me he wants me to start on the atenolol (as I knew he would).
>
> Is the tachycardia bothersome? IMHO, sinus tachy can often be left untreated unless it's.......
>
> a) uncomfortableonly occasionally
>
> b) anxiety provoking
I could probably make a case for that. Besides, fear has stopped me from doing so many things. This would prevent that I think.
> or c) severe - severe sustained tachycardia can damage the heart muscle leading to a condition called tachycardiomyopathy, which can cause heart failure. Heart failure due to tachycardiomyopathy can often be reversed by treatment with a beta blocker such as bisoprolol.Reversed? Wow. That's great and hard to believe. I know my increased heart rate is nowhere near the rate required to create tachycardiomyopathy.
> 90bpm isn't really tachycardia. >100bpm is tachycardia.I was doing some research and came across the actual definition so really my doctor is technically incorrect for calling my condition tachycardia.
> I can definately see where your doc's coming from though, it is certainly possible that you'll develop troublesome tachycardia as you increase the dose of Dex. With your family history of heart disease, it makes sense to be extra cautious. IMHO, it would be best to start atenolol at 25mg/day.
I have 25 mg. pills here. I know he wants me to start taking it once a day. Do I eventually take it twice or more a day? How often does one take beta blockers to insure continuous coverage?Also, I think that even if he weren't going to be starting me on a stimulant, that he'd prescribe the beta blocker. He really seems to think that my hyper adrenal (for lack of a better term - maybe hyperadrenalism is better?) is the root of my anxiety and depression.
> >He thinks that the atenolol will solve almost all of my anxiety and depression problems.
>
> It does sometimes help anxiety. I have a friend who finds atenolol very calming, he takes it for Ritalin-induced tachycardia! I've never heard of it helping depression.If you have severe anxiety (which I do when not medicated) then that can lead to depression, right (because your system starts making more cortisol instead of neurotransmitters?). So if an agent were to shut down the anxiety response, then depression is prevented, no?
> >It's difficult for me to believe that a beta blocker alone will give me back my motivation.
>
> It might allow you to tolerate a higher dose of Dex - which may improve your motivation.Very true but I don't think he was seeing it that way.
> >He thinks it would be foolish of me not to take the dexedrine every day. I don't buy this, do you?
>
> It's always surprised me how few docs seem to prescribe 'as required' stimulants. Most people seem to take them every day.It doesn't really surprise me. How often do you not want to think clearly? Or how often do you want to be sluggish and depressed? Did you see the explanation in another thread here where a poster talks about why some doctors prefer that patients take stimulants every day? I was happy to see that since I'd like to believe it's better to take them continuously.
K
xx
Posted by ed_uk on August 17, 2005, at 15:10:27
In reply to Re: Dexedrine update » ed_uk, posted by KaraS on August 17, 2005, at 14:37:57
Hi K,
>Reversed? Wow.
As far as I know, tachycardiomyopathy is one of the rare types of heart failure which can often be reversed. Most types of heart failure are irreversible.
>I have 25 mg. pills here. I know he wants me to start taking it once a day. Do I eventually take it twice or more a day? How often does one take beta blockers to insure continuous coverage?
Atenolol is usually given once daily, at a dose of 25-100mg/day.... rarely up to ~150mg. It's occasionally given twice daily for angina.
>If you have severe anxiety (which I do when not medicated) then that can lead to depression, right (because your system starts making more cortisol instead of neurotransmitters?). So if an agent were to shut down the anxiety response, then depression is prevented, no?
Makes sense :-)
>How often do you not want to think clearly?
On a Sunday? ;-)
Ed xx
Posted by KaraS on August 18, 2005, at 18:36:03
In reply to Re: Dexedrine update » KaraS, posted by ed_uk on August 17, 2005, at 15:10:27
> Hi Ed,
> Atenolol is usually given once daily, at a dose of 25-100mg/day.... rarely up to ~150mg. It's occasionally given twice daily for angina.
That's amazing that just one pill can keep your pulse lower for a whole day. Does it just lower the pulse and/or does it keep it at a steady level? When I exercise will my pusle rate go up at all? If not, then there's no benefit to exercising while on a beta blocker, is there?
This morning my pulse rate was 72. I have a feeling my blood pressure was fairly low too. What will a beta blocker do to me during the times when I'd normally have a low pulse rate and blood pressure? Could the beta blocker lower them to a dangerous level?
I read that insomnia is one of the side effects from them as well. I wonder why that is. I'd have thought that preventing a racing heart would help you sleep.
Posted by ed_uk on August 18, 2005, at 18:48:04
In reply to Re: Dexedrine update » ed_uk, posted by KaraS on August 18, 2005, at 18:36:03
Hi K,
>Does it just lower the pulse and/or does it keep it at a steady level?
It should prevent 'spikes' in pulse.
>When I exercise will my pusle rate go up at all?
Not as much as normal.
>If not, then there's no benefit to exercising while on a beta blocker, is there?
There's always benefit to exercising :-) The beta blocker won't prevent it from being beneficial.
>What will a beta blocker do to me during the times when I'd normally have a low pulse rate and blood pressure?
It might lower them a bit, but probably not much, especially at 25mg.
>Could the beta blocker lower them to a dangerous level?
It's not likely :-)
>I read that insomnia is one of the side effects from them as well.
Sleep disturbance is more a problem with Inderal, not so much with atenolol. Inderal can cause bad dreams.
Ed xx
Posted by KaraS on August 18, 2005, at 22:59:34
In reply to Re: Dexedrine update » KaraS, posted by ed_uk on August 18, 2005, at 18:48:04
> Hi Ed,
>
> >Does it just lower the pulse and/or does it keep it at a steady level?
>
> It should prevent 'spikes' in pulse.
>
> >When I exercise will my pusle rate go up at all?
>
> Not as much as normal.
>
> >If not, then there's no benefit to exercising while on a beta blocker, is there?
>
> There's always benefit to exercising :-) The beta blocker won't prevent it from being beneficial.
>
> >What will a beta blocker do to me during the times when I'd normally have a low pulse rate and blood pressure?
>
> It might lower them a bit, but probably not much, especially at 25mg.
>
> >Could the beta blocker lower them to a dangerous level?
>
> It's not likely :-)
>
> >I read that insomnia is one of the side effects from them as well.
>
> Sleep disturbance is more a problem with Inderal, not so much with atenolol. Inderal can cause bad dreams.
>
> Ed xx
Thanks. That's all good to hear. I think I'm ready to start taking it. You can study for your exams now. :-)K
Posted by ed_uk on August 19, 2005, at 9:34:55
In reply to Re: Dexedrine update » ed_uk, posted by KaraS on August 18, 2005, at 22:59:34
Hi K,
I'm not taking my exams. I'm working in a pharmacy for a year. I might go back to uni next year... but maybe not.
ed xx
Posted by KaraS on August 19, 2005, at 18:04:52
In reply to Re: Dexedrine update » KaraS, posted by ed_uk on August 19, 2005, at 9:34:55
> Hi K,
>
> I'm not taking my exams. I'm working in a pharmacy for a year. I might go back to uni next year... but maybe not.
>
> ed xx
One more question. Can I have a drink or two if I'm taking a beta blocker and using a stimulant?You must have made your decision not to take your exams very recently. Sometimes a year or so off can be very therapeutic. I took a year off between my sophmore and junior years. It was just what I needed at the time. I hope you go back eventually though. The world needs more good, caring health professionals!
K
xxx
Posted by ed_uk on August 20, 2005, at 10:49:42
In reply to Re: Dexedrine update » ed_uk, posted by KaraS on August 19, 2005, at 18:04:52
Hi K!
>Can I have a drink or two if I'm taking a beta blocker and using a stimulant?
Yes :-) The alcohol might temporarily reduce your BP a bit, probably not much.
Have you started atenolol 25mg yet? ........and did you get a BP monitor?
>Sometimes a year or so off can be very therapeutic.
I can take a maximum of two years off.
Ed xxx
Posted by alohashirt on August 21, 2005, at 0:04:07
In reply to Re: Dexedrine update » KaraS, posted by ed_uk on August 20, 2005, at 10:49:42
> Hi K!
>
> >Sometimes a year or so off can be very therapeutic.
>
> I can take a maximum of two years off.
>
> Ed xxxI left my government job in Australia in 1990 for six week's off travelling the world.
I still haven't returned.
Posted by KaraS on August 21, 2005, at 1:46:01
In reply to Time off (Re: Dexedrine update, posted by alohashirt on August 21, 2005, at 0:04:07
> > Hi K!
> >
> > >Sometimes a year or so off can be very therapeutic.
> >
> > I can take a maximum of two years off.
> >
> > Ed xxx
>
> I left my government job in Australia in 1990 for six week's off travelling the world.
>
> I still haven't returned.
>
Maybe your chosen Babble name should have been alohajob... :-)
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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