![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 8885 to 8909 of 10407. Go back in thread:
Posted by carolina on July 8, 2005, at 13:14:12
In reply to Re: Quitting Effexor XR - and off of all other med, posted by carolina on July 8, 2005, at 2:14:26
> > Thanks for your info. I too think the meds may have made me hypomanic, but then having a lot of energy runs in my family and I don't consider that abnormal. I consider coming home, getting on the couch and not wanting to do the things I would normally do, abnormal.
> >
> > We're going to come down slowly, and one thing about your post that I'm interested in, is did you come off of the Effexor while you were still on the Klonopin, and did you think that helped you?
> > Thanks,
> > Starlight
>
> YES!!! it helped w/ the anxiety very much. Good luck and take care
Posted by TinMan on July 8, 2005, at 13:23:13
In reply to Re: My strange experiences with Effexor..., posted by julish on July 8, 2005, at 11:21:33
While I certainly believe that the area of the brain and mind need much more research done, I also believe that Nature has a lot to do with who we are. Women can tell you that each baby while in the womb, has a definite personality. Why does one identical twin have schizophrenia, while the other does not?
It is that whole Nature vs. Nurture thing again. And I honestly believe that genetics have a lot to do with our "mental health" if you will.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. That is where therapy and support groups are invaluable. They can help you try something else.
But "talking" or "pulling" myself out of a depression is not possible for me. With the Effexor, I feel that life is certainly worthwhile and I have something to offer. Not something I felt with Paxil. Work and communicate with your Dr. They certainly need the feedback!
Some are straw, some are tin,
TinMan
Posted by haddsl on July 8, 2005, at 13:29:39
In reply to Lou's response to an aspect of this thread-lngtrm?, posted by Lou Pilder on July 8, 2005, at 13:08:19
This is ridiculous! I feel like the only reason you are here is to badger us and make us feel like we are bad and wrong. Of course there are side effects.... there are side effects to cold medicine too! Everything has side effects, So I guess then according to you we shouldn't take cold medicine either!? If you don't like us and the way that we have decided to FIX our problems then you don't have to waste your time on this thread! If you don't want to take anything.... FINE! now leave us alone! BTW... (which means 'by the way' since you don't know what a med is) a med is medication. the reason they said to try ans stick with it is because there are initial side effects that go away or lessen after about a 2 week period. And finally, if they don't like it and they decide to switch... that is because different pills effect everyone differently. What might make this person ill and abnormal, may make me feel perfect. SO! either try to have a little compassion and understanding for a situation that you are not in, and don't understand. Or... keep your attitude to yourself!
> > Some times you just have to pick a med and stick to it. All meds feel strange, especialy at first. You get used to it though. If Cipralex is intolerable like effexor, try switching again. If not give it a while. Are you just starting to take these types of medication?
>
> Friends, in referrence to the above post, I am requesting that you consider the following if you are going to post to this thread.
> It is written here, [...sometimes you just have to pick a med and stick to it...].
> I am requesting that you consider the following:
> A. What principle of mental-health, if there is one, says that you have to pick a med and stick to it?
> B.Does the poster define what a "med" is?
> C.Does the poster define the conditions that could lead for someone to [...sometimes...]?
> The poster then writes something like,[...if effexor is intolorable...try switching...].
> I am asking you to consider the following if you are going to post to this thread.
> A. If effexor can be intolerable, could it also cause damage to your health in the near term?
> B. If any of these type of chemicals can be "intolerable", could it be that all these type of drugs could cause damage to your health in the long term?
> Lou
>
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 8, 2005, at 13:48:43
In reply to Lou's response to an aspect of this thread-lngtrm?, posted by Lou Pilder on July 8, 2005, at 13:08:19
Friends,
It is written here something about psychotropic drugs in relation to medicines. I am requesting that you to consider what is written in the following link if you are going to post in this thread.
Lou
http://www.mindfreedom.org/mindfreedom/levine.schtml
Posted by carolina on July 8, 2005, at 14:40:03
In reply to Re: Quitting Effexor XR - and off of all other meds!, posted by angelbean on July 8, 2005, at 3:43:23
> I have been on Effexor XR 150mg for 8 years. I too am coming off of it. Not because it's not working for me, but because I lost my insurance and this stuff is $140 a month! Believe me, if I could afford it, I would continue it forever.
>
> Anyway, it has been 3 days since my last dose, and I think I'm actually feeling a little better. I have experienced all the side effects that everyone complains of, but I feel pretty good right now. I am frightened by the posts I've read here and elsewhere about the effects of coming off, especially without the benefit of tapering. So I wanted to let people know that one person out there is getting off it, and so far I'm ok. I would love to hear from some people who have been successful at getting off it without a lot of side effects. I'm hoping you're out there, and just not talking!
>
>
> > Hi all,
> > I'm coming off of effexor xr and frankly am scared about it.>hey i have stopped effexor b4 and didnt experience any awful side effects except mood swings but i was pregnant and the mood swings cont. so i feel it was the pregnancy, not the effexor causing them :-D i would never stop a med cold turkey ever again just b/c u never know what can happen but i was ok. do u live in a state that has a state type mental health center b/c some states do and even if u have no ins. they base ur fee on a sliding scale and give u samples of the meds if they have them. also u can always apply 4 medicaid in ur state b/c a lot more states are starting to realize mental illness is serious and some will approve state ins. if ur eligable 4 help-even if its just counseling and u dont want meds. i live in sc and i know that at one x sc was the #1 state to approve any needed assistance re: mental health ( i guess they figured most of us are crazy here !!! J/K ) its worth checking into just in case u start 2 feel bad. the info would be in the gov. section of ur phone book-take care and im here if u need me
Posted by Elroy on July 8, 2005, at 14:40:42
In reply to Lou's acceptance of Dr. Hsiung's offer-chmimbal? » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on July 8, 2005, at 10:35:04
An exception that I see that immediately speaks out as an exception occurs with people who develop Cushing's of one form or the other (Cushing's Disease, Cushing's Syndrome, or even Pseudo Cushing's). They have NO mood disorder problems prior to the onset of Cushings and then develop anything from mild to moderate to even very severe depression and / or anxiety due to the excessive levels of cortisol in their bodies. Once the cortisol problem is corrected the depression / anxiety is also cleared up. That correction may be in the form of surgery (i.e., removal of a pituitary tumor or removal of an adrenal gland tumor) OR it may be in the form of medications (as an exciting example, recent studies using the drug RU486 for a very SHORT-TERM application have had amazing results in Pseudo Cushing's type cases).
Clearly an example of a BIOLOGICAL cause of a mood disorder... and that was corrected by (in some cases) pharmaceutical intervention.
Another example, somewhat rare, that comes to mind is that with "Pheo tumors" (pheochromocytoma tumor) of the adrenal gland. A pheo tumor (generally located inside the cortex area of the adrenal gland) causes the generation of excess adrenaline hormones (epinehprine, norepinehprine, etc.) and cause many symptoms... physical ones such as very high blood pressure but also generate extremely severe anxiety. When the pheo tumor is removed and the adrenaline hormones - which are also, BTW, neurotransmitters - brought back into balance, the anxiety disappears.
Clearly an example of a BIOLOGICAL cause of a mood disorder...
Another very obvious example lies in the realm of menopause / andropause situations. Being a male I will focus on the example of andropause. A male has NO mood disorder problems of any type when his testosterone production begins falling. As it continues its downward trend, the male becomes more and more depressed... and as his testosterone decline continues it is accelerated by an aromatase proces that begins escalating and converting more and more testosterone to more and more estradiol (E2, one of the estrogens) leading to an "estrogen dominance" situation in this male. Now his depression may get severe - or he may instead continue to have moderate depression, but now also have severe anxiety and/or panic attacks. The male gets his hormone levels checked and finds that he has abnormally low testosterone and highly elevated estradiol (E2). He then goes into an HRT (hormone replacement therapy) program and gets intermuscular testosterone shots weekly and Arimidex to control his E2 levels - and within a few weeks is feeling great again, with no more depression and/or anxiety!
Clearly an example of a BIOLOGICAL cause of a mood disorder... and that was corrected by pharmaceutical intervention!
In fact, in the latter example, the HRT the male is receiving is very probably prolonging his life and definitely providing for a very high quality of life. HRT (done properly with the use of bioidentical or near bioidentical hormones - and NOT any processed horse urine! - will strengthen his cardivascular system, improve his cholosterol picture, and stop the occurrence on bone loss).
There are clearly biological causes of mood disorders. In addition, when a trauma situation occurs (whether long-term, chronic stress that leads to severe anxiety or an acute trauma situation that leads to depression), it only stands to reason that the stress to the HPA Axis is going to effect the production of various hormones and neurotransmitters. In fact, the dysfunction of the HPA Axis is the primary concept behind several of the Pseudo Cushing's variations. The functions of the brain itself become overloaded and/or otherwise dysfunctional when anxiety or depression settles in for the long haul. Serotonin levels become depleted or dopamine levels become excessive, or cortisol levels become elevated, or whatever cmbination thereof...
Sure, brain brain chemistry is difficult to measure directly, but brain electrical activity, which results from chemical reactions, is now easy to assess with Quantitative Electroencephalography (QEEG), also called brain mapping... just as an EKG measures electrical activity in the heart. (There's also some other brain scanning techniques that are showing very promising results as possible methods of observing brain chemstry and brain chemistry activity)
Dr. Eric Braverman uses a computer with special interfaces and software to record and interpret the four key electrical measures of brain health, those being voltage (or energy), latency (or speed), rhythm (or balance), and synchrony (or symmetry).
According to Dr. Braverman, " ...these measurements reveal everything we need to know about dopamine, acetylcholine, GABA, and serotonin levels, respectively. Brain chemical imbalances are uncovered by lobe-specific brainwave abnormalities."
Maybe, a bit of a "stretch" (i.e., "reveal 'everything' we need to know... ").... but still very promising and more advanced technology.
I also note with interest that Dr. Braverman takes a quite "holistic" approach to his practice:
"Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) correct the neurotransmitter deficiency responsible for causing depression. Xanax and Klonopin do likewise for GABA-deficient anxiety, Aricept addresses acetylcholine-deficient memory loss, and Dexedrine bolsters the brain's dopamine when chronic fatigue presents. But drugs, as effective as they might be, should be the last-not first-resort. With "The Edge Effect", they can be.Amino acids that are the raw material precursors to the neurotransmitters. Tyrosine and phenylalanine are transformed into dopamine; acetylcholine comes from phosphatidyl serine and n-acetyl carnitine; glutamine supports GABA; and tryptophan is the raw ingredient for serotonin."
NOW......
That said, I do agree that there is too much "art" and not enough "science" in the psychiatric field. When SSRI medications came on the field, it was as if psychiatrist (generally) only had a hammer so every problem became a nail.
When I earlier ( a couple of years ago) had mild to moderate anxiety, I was able to handle it with "talk therapy" and some sleep aid assistance (ambien). Why did my p-doc keep trying to put me on SSRI medications? With anxiety it was highly unlikely that I had a serotonin problem! If anything, very low dose Xanax XR might have been a more effective option but as it turned out then I didn't need it. An even better option - with mild to moderate anxiety - would have been to put me on a regimen of certain amino acids (taurine, glutamate) and vitamins (a little extra B6) to build up my likely depleted GABA levels.
But pharmaceutical medications unfortunately DO have their place.
When the bottom fell out (for me) in June of 2004, I tried "toughening it out" for about 3 months, only for the anxiety to continue to get worse and worse. Talk therapy was like trying to pit into a hurricane (accomplishing nothing). I was first put on Ativan and then upped to Xanax XR... and quite honestly believe that I would not be here today had not the Xanax XR been able to "quench the fire" of the raging anxiety that was going on at that time.
As testing would later show (the very next month) I had very high levels of cortisol and was initially thought to have Cushing's. I was also found to now be hypogonadal (again courtesy of highly elevated cortisol). Numerous advanced testings later revealed that I did not have "regular" Cushing's, but an adrenal gland tumor (benign, thanfully) was found and it was suspected to be a Pheo tumor due to the severity of the anxiety.
That turned out to be a negative (several more tests later) and I was finally diagnosed with Pseudo Cushings due to a dysfunctional HPA Axis caused by several years of chronic stress and milder anxiety. I am currently taking the AD "Remeron", not for its AD effects (as I really have fairly mild depression and that comes and goes... and is just from being so pissed off that nothing has "cured" my condition to this point, though many thing, individually, have helped). No, I'm taking the Remeron because a number of clinical trials (remember that phrase) have shown that it has strong effects in lowering cortisol. My GP doc has hopes that we can get the cortisol lowered and keep it down for a sufficient period of time for the HPA Axis to "re-set" itself and bring cortisol production back to normal ranges.
So, it's pretty far-fetched to make generalized claims that there's no such thing as biological causes for mood disorders and psychological problems... even when the cause is one of traumatic issue, it still effects the hormones, the neurotransmitters, the HPA Axis (and as I found in becoming hypogonadal, the HPAT Axis), etc.
And, yes, I have read your links.
Some of it I agreed with....
QUOTE:
In the Florida study, psychiatrists missed diagnosing physical illness in 80% of the cases. Gold said he was "embarrassed" at how bad psychiatrists were at "doctoring" and that one third of psychiatrists admit feeling incompetent to give a patient a complete physical examination. [Mark Gold, The Good News About Depression, 1986, p.22-24]
END QUOTEJust as I stated before, this is a field where often there's too much "art" and not enough "science", too much of a "guessing game" (and often with no logic behind it... why give someone with anxiety a serotonin boosting drug? why give someone with anxiety a norepinehrine boosting drug - which will just make their anxiety worse?)
But I often noted that studies that were cited were older (like the above one, 1986, almost 20 years ago) and / or very minor studies.
But mostly it was simply citing ancedotal cases. This individual was found to have really had this problem, and this other individual was actually found not to have depression but had this brain tumor, etc., etc. There are ALWAYS exceptions, and exception do NOT make the rules, but are exceptions to those rules.
Otherwise, most of what I noted was simply the opinions of various medical individuals. Those opinions can be countered by opposing opinion of other medical authorities back and forth ad nauseum...
And what sources are referred to?
Medicine on Trial
CCHR publication, Psychiatry: Committing Fraud
The Good News About Depression
No More Ritalin, Treating ADHD Without Drugs
The Hyperactivity Hoax
Prescription for Disaster
Etc., etc., etc.Pretty "one-sided" view, no?
Again, views that can be countered by numerous other medical books by other medical authorities that say otherwise.
That said, I will state in my personal opinion that I think that we - as a country and society - ARE overmedicated, that doctors ARE too likely to look for a pharmaceutical response (jeez, with all those sales reps, I wonder why?) and that doctors should take more holistic approaches to both treating symptoms AND finding root causes for full treatment, and that pharmaceuticals should be last-ditch responses when severity simply insists that it must be done (I, for example, would not want to go to the ER with a badly infected arm wound and be given a regimen of vitramins and amino acids to take when clearly some strong antibiotics would be called for to keep from losing the limb - or even worse!).
As to the pharmaceutical companies themselves, I (again my own personal opinion) believe them to simply be necessary evils. They are too profit oriented, often - IMHO - conduct questionable studies, and simply by their mode of operation put too much pressure on doctors to use them as a first resort rather than a last resort.
Elroy
X
X
X
X> Dr. Hsiung and all members of this mental-health community.
> I am delighted to accept the offer here by Dr. Hsiung to show reserch that could indicate that the taking of psychotropic could harm your health amd that the statement by Dr. Hsiung that the poster in question's statement has the potential to be accurate and is not overgeneralizing or exaggerating.
> What I will post here is to show where the psychotropic drugs came from, what the chmicals do to those that take them, how pesticides and poisons act and how nerve agents that kill are related to the development of psychotropic drugs. I also will show the relationship with the Nazi regime and psychiatry along with IG Farben and Nazi Germany, Bayer and Hoechst.
> But first I would like for those that are going to post to this thread to take in consideration what is written in the following link concerning the "chemical imbalance" theory of psychiatry.
> Lou Pilder
> http://www.deep-trance.com/treatment/chemical-imbalance.html
Posted by angelbean on July 8, 2005, at 14:50:41
In reply to Re: Quitting Effexor XR - and off of all other med, posted by carolina on July 8, 2005, at 13:14:12
Could someone please tell me what you mean by hyopmanic. I see that here a lot, and am not sure what it is.
Thanks.> > > Thanks for your info. I too think the meds may have made me hypomanic, but then having a lot of energy runs in my family and I don't consider that abnormal.
Posted by angelbean on July 8, 2005, at 15:00:26
In reply to Re: Quitting Effexor XR - and off of all other meds!, posted by carolina on July 8, 2005, at 14:40:03
Thanks for your feedback. The first 3 days I had that 'out of my head' feeling. But on day 4, it subsided. And I am thinking so clearly now. I feel liberated. I believe I'm even breathing better. It's strange.
I don't recommend coming off to anyone, so please don't misunderstand me. My point is only to inform people who are considering stopping that not everyone has the horrific experience I've read so much about.
Anyway, now that I've come to this point, I don't think I'll be turning back. It's funny how introspective I've been over the past couple days. I see things so clearly. I'm looking forward now to making some drastic changes for the better in my life (don't worry, I'll give it some time). I feel great!
> >hey i have stopped effexor b4 and didnt experience any awful side effects except mood swings but i was pregnant and the mood swings cont. so i feel it was the pregnancy, not the effexor causing them :-D i would never stop a med cold turkey ever again just b/c u never know what can happen but i was ok. do u live in a state that has a state type mental health center b/c some states do and even if u have no ins. they base ur fee on a sliding scale and give u samples of the meds if they have them. also u can always apply 4 medicaid in ur state b/c a lot more states are starting to realize mental illness is serious and some will approve state ins. if ur eligable 4 help-even if its just counseling and u dont want meds. i live in sc and i know that at one x sc was the #1 state to approve any needed assistance re: mental health ( i guess they figured most of us are crazy here !!! J/K ) its worth checking into just in case u start 2 feel bad. the info would be in the gov. section of ur phone book-take care and im here if u need me
Posted by carolina on July 8, 2005, at 15:18:53
In reply to Re: My strange experiences with Effexor..., posted by TinMan on July 8, 2005, at 13:23:13
> While I certainly believe that the area of the brain and mind need much more research done, I also believe that Nature has a lot to do with who we are. Women can tell you that each baby while in the womb, has a definite personality. Why does one identical twin have schizophrenia, while the other does not?
>
> It is that whole Nature vs. Nurture thing again. And I honestly believe that genetics have a lot to do with our "mental health" if you will.
>
> The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. That is where therapy and support groups are invaluable. They can help you try something else.
>
> But "talking" or "pulling" myself out of a depression is not possible for me. With the Effexor, I feel that life is certainly worthwhile and I have something to offer. Not something I felt with Paxil. Work and communicate with your Dr. They certainly need the feedback!
>
> Some are straw, some are tin,
> TinMan>i agree w/ u on the nature vs nurture b/c although its just theory, it makes the most sense to me.I believe in the nature b/c stats show that it is not uncommon if 1 member in a family has mental illness of any form, a lot of the time some1 in that same family has the illness also; even if they r raised in seperate environments. i believe that nurture can play a role also if a child grows in an environment that is full of various types of illness and abuse and if not dealt with, can cause depression b/c of the unhealthy "learned" behaviors.just my opinion
Posted by figgycat on July 8, 2005, at 16:14:46
In reply to Re: Quitting Effexor XR - and off of all other meds!, posted by carolina on July 8, 2005, at 14:40:03
I'm tapering down very slowly, by "counting beads" after being on 75 mg for 4 years. It helped my depression, for which I'm grateful, but I don't want to be on it for life. My doc told me to just immediately go to 1/2 a dose - but it was horrible! Nausea, dizziness, bad temper, headaches and weird forgetfullness. I found this website, and decided to wean myself off. So I'm opening up the capsules and taking out beads - 5 or 10 less each day or so, depending on how I feel. This will take a long time, but there are almost no side effects (just mild occasional nausea and "spaciness"). I set the pills up several days ahead in divided pill box so that it's ready to go in the morning, and I don't have to count the damn beads when I'm in a hurry. I keep the leftover beads in an empy pill bottle, so I can use them later when I get down to a low dose (it works to put them in peanut butter, apple sauce or yogurt, if you just need a few). I wish you all well - it's been a great help to know that others are going thru the same thing.
Posted by TinMan on July 8, 2005, at 16:27:36
In reply to Re: Lou's acceptance of Dr. Hsiung's offer-chmimba » Lou Pilder, posted by Elroy on July 8, 2005, at 14:40:42
Elroy, well said. I have a dear friend, who after being thrown from a horse that caused an injury to her brain, she is now bi-polar. Another woman, after injuring her head in a car accident, became severly depressed and killed herself. There is so much we just don't know.
As far as the sexual side effects on SSRI's, try taking 25 mg. of DHEA in the morning. It can be purchased OTC and seems to help restore a lagging sex drive. It also seems to boost my energy level and therefor, I won't take it after 1 p.m.
Hand me the pill bottle, please,
TinMan
Posted by haddsl on July 8, 2005, at 16:31:35
In reply to Re: Lou's acceptance of Dr. Hsiung's offer-chmimba, posted by TinMan on July 8, 2005, at 16:27:36
Do you know if DHEA works for women?
> Elroy, well said. I have a dear friend, who after being thrown from a horse that caused an injury to her brain, she is now bi-polar. Another woman, after injuring her head in a car accident, became severly depressed and killed herself. There is so much we just don't know.
>
> As far as the sexual side effects on SSRI's, try taking 25 mg. of DHEA in the morning. It can be purchased OTC and seems to help restore a lagging sex drive. It also seems to boost my energy level and therefor, I won't take it after 1 p.m.
>
> Hand me the pill bottle, please,
> TinMan
Posted by TinMan on July 8, 2005, at 16:43:37
In reply to Re: Lou's acceptance of Dr. Hsiung's offer-chmimba, posted by haddsl on July 8, 2005, at 16:31:35
Do you know if DHEA works for women?
Yes, it seems to work for me and my sister!
Posted by Elroy on July 8, 2005, at 17:29:58
In reply to Re: Lou's response to an aspect of this thread-lngtrm?, posted by haddsl on July 8, 2005, at 13:29:39
I agree with your posting to a large degree (in fact, see my earlier posting in reply to this individual)...
But....
To play devil's advocate both ways, consider the following (this was an e-mail message that I received just this afternoon from the Alliance for Retired Americans www.retiredamericans.org:
QUOTE:
Drug Industry Spends More than Any Other to Influence Government - - - In the past seven years, drug makers have spent a staggering $800 million to influence public policy, the biggest lobbying operation in the nation, according to the Center for Public Integrity. The industry's lobbying expenses are just a small fraction of its massive profits (industry leader Pfizer made $50.9 billion in 2004), but its money has bought considerable influence in fighting off measures that would contain skyrocketing drug prices. In 2003, the year President Bush and Congress passed the Medicare drug law, pharmaceutical companies spent $128 million to ensure Medicare was prohibited from negotiating lower drug prices, a provision that was included in the law. A study by Boston University predicted that over 8 years the industry would realize $139 billion in new profits thanks to the law. Drug makers have also defeated repeated Congressional attempts to legalize drug imports, this despite the fact that a significant majority of Americans supports the idea. "When it comes to drug prices, money talks," said George J. Kourpias, president of the Alliance for Retired Americans. "Public opinion contradicts what's actually been done on Capitol Hill and clearly the drug industry has a stranglehold on Congress and the White House." The study found the drug lobby contributed $87 million to political campaigns, 69% of which went to Republicans. President Bush was the industry's top recipient with $1.5 million. Aside from the millions spent, the drug lobby also secures influence by employing many former government employees, including about 70 former House and Senate Members. The Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers Association (PhRMA) hired former Congressman Billy Tauzin, a chief architect of the 2003 Medicare law, as its president. To find out more, visit the Center for Public Integrity at www.publicintegrity.org. END QUOTEThen review this:
http://www.parapolitics.info/phorum/read.php?f=27&i=64&t=64
QUOTE:
Bush established the New Freedom Commission on Mental Health in April 2002 to conduct a "comprehensive study of the United States mental health service delivery system." The commission issued its recommendations in July 2003. Bush instructed more than 25 federal agencies to develop an implementation plan based on those recommendations. The president's commission found that "despite their prevalence, mental disorders often go undiagnosed" and recommended comprehensive mental health screening for "consumers of all ages,"... The commission also recommended "Linkage [of screening] with treatment and supports" including "state-of-the-art treatments" using "specific medications for specific conditions." The commission commended the Texas Medication Algorithm Project (TMAP) as a "model" medication treatment plan that "illustrates an evidence-based practice that results in better consumer outcomes."But the Texas project, which promotes the use of newer, more expensive antidepressants and antipsychotic drugs, sparked off controversy when Allen Jones, an employee of the Pennsylvania Office of the Inspector General, revealed that key officials with influence over the medication plan in his state received money and perks from drug companies with a stake in the medication algorithm (15 May, p1153). He was sacked this week for speaking to the BMJ and the New York Times.
The Texas project started in 1995 as an alliance of individuals from the pharmaceutical industry, the University of Texas, and the mental health and corrections systems of Texas. The project was funded by a Robert Wood Johnson grant — and by several drug companies. Mr Jones told the BMJ that the same "political/pharmaceutical alliance" that generated the Texas project was behind the recommendations of the New Freedom Commission, which, according to his whistleblower report, were "poised to consolidate the TMAP effort into a comprehensive national policy to treat mental illness with expensive, patented medications of questionable benefit and deadly side effects, and to force private insurers to pick up more of the tab". (for moer details see:
http://psychrights.org/Drugs/AllenJonesTMAPJanuary20.pdf)Eli Lilly, manufacturer of olanzapine, has multiple ties to the Bush administration. George Bush Sr was a member of Lilly's board of directors and Bush Jr appointed Lilly's chief executive officer, Sidney Taurel, to a seat on the Homeland Security Council. Lilly made $1.6m in political contributions in 2000—82% of which went to Bush and the Republican Party. Jones points out that the companies that helped to start up the Texas project have been, and still are, big contributors to the election funds of George W Bush. In addition, some members of the New Freedom Commission have served on advisory boards for these same companies, while others have direct ties to the Texas Medication Algorithm Project.
Bush was the governor of Texas during the development of the Texas project, and, during his 2000 presidential campaign, he boasted of his support for the project and the fact that the legislation he passed expanded Medicaid coverage of psychotropic drugs. END QUOTE
And this:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1020-20.htm
QUOTE:
Critics See Drug Industry Behind Mental Health Plan - by Ritt Goldstein - STOCKHOLM - Bush Plans to Screen Whole U.S. Population for Mental Illness', read the headline in the 'British Medical Journal' (BMJ) and the project, with increasingly controversial drug treatment at its core, is underway as you read this. Structures to put the scheme in place have been developed under a so-called "Federal Action Agenda," announced in Washington on Jun. 9, and include mandatory mental health screening, which the plan recommends be linked with "treatment and supports". The plan's full details have yet to emerge as the Action Agenda still "has not been publicly released," according to A Kathryn Power, director of the Centre for Mental Health Services (CMHS), the Bush administration body spearheading the effort.Developed by the President's New Freedom Commission On Mental Health, the effort, critics charge, is a pharmaceutical industry marketing scheme to mine customers and promote sales of the newest, most expensive psychiatric medications. Under 'New Freedom', mental health screening of adult Americans is slated to occur during routine physical exams while that of young people will occur in the school system. Pre-school children will receive periodic "development screens."
The plan highlights the importance of "state-of-the art medications," though a scandal has erupted recently regarding the safety and effectiveness of the main types of drugs in question, particularly antidepressants. Deadly side effects of these drugs have already claimed numerous lives. In mid-September an advisory committee of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) said antidepressants should come with "the nation's strongest warning" that they can cause suicidal behaviour in children and young people.
END QUOTESo what's the bottom line?
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they're not really out to get you!
Be involved in your own health care - both physical and mental. Don't trust that either the government - or the pharmaceutical companies are doing what's best for you. Even if they truly believe in their product, a Big Pharma's first oncern is profitability (that said, they also don't want to put a product on the market that's going to get their pants sued off either - which is why the government is constantly trying limit lawsuit awards). Assume that your doctors are "probably" on your side, but don't assume that they are up to date on every medication, every technique, every methodology, etc. A large number of them get their "continuing education" via the drug company sales reps that come by selling their wares
Involve yourself personally in those health issues.
Ask your psych doc, for example, if whether also
might be non pharmaceutical treatments that can be used along with - or maybe in lieu of - medication treatments.Elroy
X
X
X
X> This is ridiculous! I feel like the only reason you are here is to badger us and make us feel like we are bad and wrong. Of course there are side effects.... there are side effects to cold medicine too! Everything has side effects, So I guess then according to you we shouldn't take cold medicine either!? If you don't like us and the way that we have decided to FIX our problems then you don't have to waste your time on this thread! If you don't want to take anything.... FINE! now leave us alone! BTW... (which means 'by the way' since you don't know what a med is) a med is medication. the reason they said to try ans stick with it is because there are initial side effects that go away or lessen after about a 2 week period. And finally, if they don't like it and they decide to switch... that is because different pills effect everyone differently. What might make this person ill and abnormal, may make me feel perfect. SO! either try to have a little compassion and understanding for a situation that you are not in, and don't understand. Or... keep your attitude to yourself!
>
>
> > > Some times you just have to pick a med and stick to it. All meds feel strange, especialy at first. You get used to it though. If Cipralex is intolerable like effexor, try switching again. If not give it a while. Are you just starting to take these types of medication?
> >
> > Friends, in referrence to the above post, I am requesting that you consider the following if you are going to post to this thread.
> > It is written here, [...sometimes you just have to pick a med and stick to it...].
> > I am requesting that you consider the following:
> > A. What principle of mental-health, if there is one, says that you have to pick a med and stick to it?
> > B.Does the poster define what a "med" is?
> > C.Does the poster define the conditions that could lead for someone to [...sometimes...]?
> > The poster then writes something like,[...if effexor is intolorable...try switching...].
> > I am asking you to consider the following if you are going to post to this thread.
> > A. If effexor can be intolerable, could it also cause damage to your health in the near term?
> > B. If any of these type of chemicals can be "intolerable", could it be that all these type of drugs could cause damage to your health in the long term?
> > Lou
> >
>
>
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 8, 2005, at 17:46:47
In reply to Re: Lou's response to an aspect of this thread-lng » haddsl, posted by Elroy on July 8, 2005, at 17:29:58
Friends,
I am requesting that you read what is in the following link if you are going to post to this thread.
Lou
http://www.pressbox.co.uk/detailed/Health/APA_admits_there_is_no_test_for_chemical_imbalance_31128.html
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 8, 2005, at 18:05:35
In reply to Lou's response to an aspect of this thread-imbal?, posted by Lou Pilder on July 8, 2005, at 17:46:47
Friends,
If a box comes up without the article, click on what gets you into the site there, and then use the serch feature there with "chemical imbalance". The article is about the 3erd from the last on the page that comes up titled,[...APA admits...]
Lou
Posted by Phillipa on July 8, 2005, at 18:37:21
In reply to the link, posted by Lou Pilder on July 8, 2005, at 18:05:35
Lou I agree with a lot of what you said. When my thyroid became hypo I was put into the hospital because my anxiety was so high. TSH 22. When it was corrected with upping my thyroid I felt better. But the stupid pdoc wanted to show the insurance companies why I needed to be there so he started me on Luvox. For some reason at the time I tolerated it. But I think it was because he also believed in high doses of benzos. So up went ativan with luvox to counteract it . Six milligrams along with chloral hydrate. Now when I was only 22 I did have panic attacks and low dose valium got me out of it but so did moving back to Ct and getting involved with raising 3 kids. I managed to cut the valium down to 2.5mg during nursing school. Actually I changed pdocs and he got me off all meds for a while. Then I moved to VA Beach and kept taking the low dose of xanax I was on ,5 a day. Plus I did drink 3-4beers a night. Fast forward. After the hospitalization I told you about I was advised to go on disability. yes disability. So like an idiot I did. Worst thing I ever did. My self esteem was nursing. I loved it. Now they kept trying to say I was depressed and I was no really bored because I didn't have a purpose. So they kept trying to get me to take AD's SSRI's . I got such bad mental side effects I always stopped them. I didn't stick it out as others do. The minute I stopped them I felt better. Still on benzos. Now I'm trying to decide if I'm really depressed /anxious as no med seems to do a thing for me. Personally I think the pdoc who stopped me from working ruined me. I want to go back to work but as with anything else my mind is afraid. I take low dose luvox, and valium. Experiment my new pdoc says. Don't take the meds if you don't need them. That doc who put me on disability is being investigated for medical malpractic, illegal distribution of controlled substances, and insurance fraud. My son works for the VA and this pdoc is being investigated by the VA too. He's managed to get all the Viet Nam Vets on permanent disability from his PTSD testing. I know this is long and goes off topic, but one last thing. I do believe schizophrenia and bipolar disorder require medications of the psychotropic type, and I've seen little old ladies respond dramatically to AD's. A lot of people used to come into the hospital when their husbands were deployed. A social club. And it got their husbands home. I could never understand how someone who claimed to be suicidal and depressed could be laughing and joking around with staff and other pts before receiving meds. But PBabble is for people with treatment resistant conditions and I believe they are really in distress. I also believe that CBT or some sort of counselling is required in most cases. But fellow PBAbblers I feel your pain. I want you to get well. Only you and your pdoc know what is best for you. Just advocate for yourself. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 8, 2005, at 18:50:20
In reply to Re: the link » Lou Pilder, posted by Phillipa on July 8, 2005, at 18:37:21
Jan,
You wrote,[...still on benzos...].
Hummmmmmm.Could you clarify asto which benzodiazapine and how much for how long?
Lou
Posted by Phillipa on July 8, 2005, at 19:03:00
In reply to Lou's reply to Phillipa-bzd » Phillipa, posted by Lou Pilder on July 8, 2005, at 18:50:20
Sure. Except for the year or so I stopped taking them, I've managed to switch and adjust over the years. Now it's a total of l2.5mg of valium. You see I'm tapering again on my own. You and I are close in age so I'll let you figure out how long. Pretty amazing isn't it? That's why I need to start doing more on my own and get back into life. Babysteps. It's wrong. You and I know it and don't ask c word. I'll tell you anything you want to know in this type dialogue. Love you Lou!
Posted by Phillipa on July 8, 2005, at 19:10:57
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Phillipa-bzd » Lou Pilder, posted by Phillipa on July 8, 2005, at 19:03:00
Lou you know what I mean that Clarify word. And you called me by my real name. That's okay, a lot of others know it too. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by jaamey76 on July 8, 2005, at 20:35:04
In reply to Re: Lou's response to an aspect of this thread-lng » haddsl, posted by Elroy on July 8, 2005, at 17:29:58
A friend of mine went to the doc the other day, as he just went through a terrible relationship crumble, I was sad to hear that the Doctor sent him home with anti-depressants. This normally very happy guy is heart-broken, and the drugs will not solve his problems. Heart-break gets better over time, as most of us have probably experienced it at some point. I, on the other hand, can't seem to leave my house without being panic-stricken, and my potential successes in life have been severely compromised due to this terrible infliction. What causes it, I don't know. While I truly believe that at least 50% of people who take anti-deppressants do not need them, and that they would do more harm than good...feeling anxious and depressed constantly could do much more damage to the body in the long run, then the medications that help us. The benefits do outweigh the risks, and it is unfortunate that this anti-psych prejudice exists. I have tried every natural therapy in existence, to the point where I was sleeping with 2 tennis balls under my head.(don't ask) After a solid 10 years of book-reading, psycho-therapy, group therapy, hypnotherapy, church going, bible-reading, psychic readings, dream analysis, vitamin popping, blood type dieting, spiritual cleansing, and meditation, I have learned one thing. I know myself the best. What works for you does not work for me. I've been on Effexor for 6 weeks. Today I went out and got the job I've always wanted. I went grocery shopping. I think I might have even got a hint of a tan. Here's hoping that you all find what you are searching for...a long and happy life. If it is not as long as we want...better to be happy for 30 years, then unhappy for 50.
Posted by Elroy on July 8, 2005, at 21:47:37
In reply to Re: Lou's response to an aspect of this thread-lng, posted by jaamey76 on July 8, 2005, at 20:35:04
Amen to that....
Being brainwashed in one direction is just as bad as being brainwashed in the other!
> A friend of mine went to the doc the other day, as he just went through a terrible relationship crumble, I was sad to hear that the Doctor sent him home with anti-depressants. This normally very happy guy is heart-broken, and the drugs will not solve his problems. Heart-break gets better over time, as most of us have probably experienced it at some point. I, on the other hand, can't seem to leave my house without being panic-stricken, and my potential successes in life have been severely compromised due to this terrible infliction. What causes it, I don't know. While I truly believe that at least 50% of people who take anti-deppressants do not need them, and that they would do more harm than good...feeling anxious and depressed constantly could do much more damage to the body in the long run, then the medications that help us. The benefits do outweigh the risks, and it is unfortunate that this anti-psych prejudice exists. I have tried every natural therapy in existence, to the point where I was sleeping with 2 tennis balls under my head.(don't ask) After a solid 10 years of book-reading, psycho-therapy, group therapy, hypnotherapy, church going, bible-reading, psychic readings, dream analysis, vitamin popping, blood type dieting, spiritual cleansing, and meditation, I have learned one thing. I know myself the best. What works for you does not work for me. I've been on Effexor for 6 weeks. Today I went out and got the job I've always wanted. I went grocery shopping. I think I might have even got a hint of a tan. Here's hoping that you all find what you are searching for...a long and happy life. If it is not as long as we want...better to be happy for 30 years, then unhappy for 50.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 8, 2005, at 23:35:35
In reply to Quitting Effexor - so far, so good, posted by figgycat on July 8, 2005, at 16:14:46
> I'm tapering down very slowly, by "counting beads" ...
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding quitting Effexor to Psycho-Babble Withdrawal. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/wdrawl/20050611/msgs/525274.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 8, 2005, at 23:49:37
In reply to Re: Lou's acceptance of Dr. Hsiung's offer-chmimba, posted by haddsl on July 8, 2005, at 16:31:35
> Do you know if DHEA works for women?
Sorry to interrupt again, but I'd also like to redirect follow-ups regarding DHEA to Psycho-Babble Alternative. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20050612/msgs/525285.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 8, 2005, at 23:53:47
In reply to Re: Lou's response to an aspect of this thread-lngtrm?, posted by haddsl on July 8, 2005, at 13:29:39
> This is ridiculous! I feel like the only reason you are here is to badger us and make us feel like we are bad and wrong.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Sometimes it's more "conducive to civic harmony and welfare" just not to reply, or even not to read in the first place.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
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