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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 59. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 17:01:20
Has anyone else discovered this? Where are the well thought out, foot noted, sourced rebuttals? I find none. They seem to own the net when it comes to information about benzos, how to come off them (which they think everyone should do at least eventually), and what to expect and do once you are off. How much of this material is accurate or responsibily presented? At the nucleus is writings from M.D.s in England and the Netherlands. From there spawns larger symptom lists, support forums, prohibitions on all sorts of foods, beverages, antibiotics, anti-depressants of course, beta blockers, and natural remedies. Published "success stories" abound, and about all are tales of many months or years of horror literally not unlike Dante`s "Inferno." We are told in no uncertain terms that we have been brain damaged, and that the time frame for real improvement is long, and that full recovery is questionable. And to make it worse, it is affimed often that once off benzos users can experience no withdrawals for months at a time then be slammed with them again out of the blue. There seems to be no end to the fear that is implanted...
Well,I have literally not been the same person since I discovered all of this. I am afraid to take pills, even get anxious eating certain foods, even though I question the veracity of all this. But I have no real intellectual source for rebuttal. And I sit here wondering, off the benzos a while, how much of my anxiety is from the fear induced by all I have read on the net and how much is related to adaptions the drug made in my brain which needs correcting. I once obessessed over my love life. Would love those days back. Now I tend to obsess about this information that dominates the net, wondering what is accurate and what is not. Commments? My life is on hold and I need it back. Thanks. :-)
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 17:48:13
In reply to questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 17:01:20
Little dweeny companies are coming up out of the woodwork. They throw together a bunch of herbs and vitamins, and claim its the next valium.
Linkadge
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 17:59:39
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 17:48:13
You are right. There are people peddling herbs but I am talking about something different here. I am here wondering why this flood of terrible news on the net, stuff I had never heard or dreamed of. And if this stuff is true, why have benzos not been yanked off the market? But as to those herbs, the people I speak of would tell you not to take them, that they inflame a nervous system damaged by withdrawal. Same would go for a variety of things we commonly ingest... Look around on the net if curious, will see what I am talking about.
Posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 18:24:57
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 17:59:39
Hi,
I've never once come across a balanced site about benzodiazepines. Sites which describe the potential benefits of benzos as well as the potential risks would be very useful. There has been a major backlash against the benzos in the UK partly because they were so often prescribed in the past to people who never really needed them. My GP refuses to give me a prescription for even a few tablets of lorazepam!
I live in England. Here is the UK government advice on benzos. In most ways, the advice is sensible. It does, however, ignore the fact the some people do find long term treatment useful. Also, doctors in the UK tend to force patients to withdraw from benzos even when they have apparantly benefitted from them for many years without adverse effects.
BENZODIAZEPINES,
DEPENDENCE AND
WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS
There has been concern for many years regarding benzodiazepine dependence (Br.Med.J,1980:280, 910-912)*. Such dependence is becoming increasingly worrying.Withdrawal symptoms include anxiety, tremor, confusion, insomnia, perceptual disorders, fits, depression, gastrointestinal and other somatic symptoms. These may sometimes be difficult to distinguish from the symptoms of the original illness.
It is important to note that withdrawal symptoms can occur with benzodiazepines following therapeutic doses given for SHORT periods of time.
Withdrawal effects usually appear shortly after stopping a benzodiazepine with a short half life, or up to several days after stopping one with a long half life. Symptoms may continue for weeks or months. No epidemiological evidence is available to suggest that one benzodiazepine is more responsible for the development of dependency or withdrawal symptoms than another.
The Committee on Safety of Medicines recommends that the use of benzodiazepines should be limited in the following ways:
USES
As Anxiolytics
Benzodiazepines are indicated for the short-term relief (two to four weeks only) of anxiety that is severe, disabling or subjecting the individual to unacceptable distress, occurring alone or in association with insomnia or short-term psychosomatic, organic or psychotic illness.
The use of benzodiazepines to treat short-term 'mild' anxiety is inappropriate and unsuitable.
As Hypnotics
Benzodiazepines should be used to treat insomnia only when it is severe, disabling, or subjecting the individual to extreme distress.
DOSE
The lowest dose which can control the symptoms should be used. It should not be continued beyond four weeks.
Long-term chronic use is not recommended.
Treatment should always be tapered off gradually.
Patients who have taken benzodiazepines for a long time may require a longer period during which doses are reduced.
When a benzodiazepine is used as a hypnotic, treatment should, if possible, be intermittent.
PRECAUTIONS
Benzodiazepines should not be used alone to treat depression or anxiety associated with depression. Suicide may be precipitated in such patients.
They should not be used for phobic or obsessional states.
They should not be used for the treatment of chronic psychosis.
In cases of loss or bereavement, psychological adjustment may be inhibited by benzodiazepines.
Disinhibiting effects may be manifested in various ways. Suicide may be precipitated in patients who are depressed, and aggressive behaviour towards self and others may be precipitated. Extreme caution should therefore be used in prescribing benzodiazepines in patients with personality disorders.
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 19:05:01
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 18:24:57
I don't see the point really. There was a thread here a while ago in which many people agreed that SSRI's were as addictive if not more addictive than benzo's.
The push to get people off benzo's and onto SSRI's is/was absolutely retarded. Some people have been on a benzo without adjustment sucessfully for decades, only to be swiched to something that has more side effects, doesn't work as well, and is harder to get off.
Linkadge
Posted by Glydin on November 27, 2004, at 19:08:46
In reply to questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 17:01:20
I feel alot of our world operates on fear and fear producing information seems to be primarly what I find when I research ANYTHING via the 'net.
The benzo issue is near and dear to my heart and I do tire of feeling like the ONLY person on earth who does not have a horror story. Yet, even with what I know, at every turn, I have found info that disputes long term successful is even a possiblity. I am so thankful for a doc who will work with me. I try to be comfortable with my truth and realize some sources of information are just not valid. My anxiety disorder does make it difficult for me to be objective and not be
hypervigilent, effected, and bothered.I also agree with what a very wise person told me a few years ago: "Don't go looking on the internet for happy stories, they are few a far between".
Posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 19:12:59
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 19:05:01
Doctors only really accepted the fact that benzos can cause a strong physical dependence when SSRIs were introduced. When a completely new class of antidepressants/anxiolytics are introduced, doctors will finally accept that SSRIs create physical dependence. SSRIs are not 'addictive' like opiates- they do, however, cause dependence. The medical profession, as always, will be very slow to accept this.
Ed.
Posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 19:16:09
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by Glydin on November 27, 2004, at 19:08:46
Hi Glydin,
People who respond well to medication without major side effects are MUCH less likely to post their stories on the internet!
Ed.
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 19:18:07
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 18:24:57
Thanks Ed. I now have a full blown debilitating anxiety disorder post benzo, with at times almost unbearable physical symptoms. The meds were prescribed for sleep and work stress, though I was still living a vibrant life. I got no warning like that UK document, orally or written, only a statement that the meds "may be habit forming if taken for longer than directed by your doctor." I got off the meds due to tolerance issues, though I understand this is not an issue with many people. And I do not have months and months or years to go through horrors. So I was interested in white people thought of those sites and this internet movement. This has scared the living blank out of me and I know it is not helping my anxiety.
Posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 19:31:06
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 19:18:07
Hi Paul,
Perhaps you could try to find the minimum dose of diazepam which will prevent your withdrawal symptoms. eg. try 2mg/day for a week.....
........if this is inadequate increase to 4mg/day for a week.............
........if this is inadequate increase to 6mg/day for a week........ and so on until you find the smallest dose which is enough to prevent withdrawal symptoms.Once your withdrawal symptoms are under control you could consider finding another way of dealing with your anxiety eg. another medication or a psychological technique such as CBT.
When your anxiety has been reduced by the new medication or psychological treatment you could reduce the diazepam very slowly in order to withdraw completely eg. reduce by 0.5mg/day every 2 weeks. Diazepam syrup can be used to allow very gradual dose reduction. Alternatively, if you didn't want to withdraw then that would also be OK.
Regards,
Ed.
Posted by Glydin on November 27, 2004, at 19:31:38
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 19:16:09
Very true, Ed.
I guess, yet again, I am a rule exception. (smile)
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 19:34:01
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 19:16:09
All is wisdom from you fine people. Now if I can find a way to stop vibrating half the day,get rid of these burning sensations, and end the major throat tightness, tremor, and palps in response to run of the mill everyday stressors then I can get out, earn some money, and keep a roof over my head. I live in a country that is not very compassionate torward people in such situations... Now my doc, he will get out the Paxil samples. And I think he may be like every other doc I have been to about this, disbelieving that I did not have these troubles before the Xanax and Valium. But I know the truth... At least this doc is a nice guy. Not like the others that had this "yea you scumbag drug addict" look in their eyes.
Posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 19:39:14
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 19:34:01
I find it funny that your doctors give you samples of drugs. That never happens in England!
The Paxil might treat some of your anxiety but it won't get rid of all the withdrawal symptoms. For that, you need to find the lowest possible dose of diazepam. Once you've done that, you might want to consider Paxil. Don't forget that Paxil sometimes causes severe withdrawal symptoms when it is stopped!Ed
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 19:48:46
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 19:39:14
Ed,
I tapered off Diazepam pretty slowly, and I was never anywhere near asymptomatic below about 20 mgs. Now my concern is becoming physically dependant on diazepam again and perhaps never solving the withdrawal. So you got the withdrawals, the dependence, and another taper to do which is no fun. But something has to give soon as I must function. I have metaprolol (beta blocker) for palps but it solves no other symptoms. I have heard that Inderal is better though. You are right, Paxil has withdrawals all its own. But not this 10 months, 2, 3 years worth of it that they claim on these benzo reocvery sites. Really appreciate your attention.:-)
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2004, at 19:54:27
In reply to questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 17:01:20
Paul,
You wrote,[....what is accurate and what is not?...].
I was one that was addicted to bzd by way of being prescribed the drug by a neurologist for another condition.
I overcame the addiction and withdrawal and have offered my experiance to help others to be free from the withdrawal and addiction.
As one to experiance these things, I could offer some of what I have experianced in relation to your question as to what is accurate and what is not as experiancing and perhaps be of some benifit to your concerns.
Lou
Posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 19:58:10
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 19:48:46
Hi,
Even though you needed 20mg/day in the past doesn't mean that you would need that much now. Being off the diazepam for a while may have reversed some of your tolerance, meaning you might be able to get by on a much smaller dose.
Would it be so bad to be on diazepam again? Did you have a lot of side effects?
Perhaps if you did go back on diazepam you could treat your remaining anxiety with another med which is less likely to be associated with tolerance. You don't have to be diazepam free, do you? Dependence is nothing to be ashamed off, despite what you may feel. Dependence on diazpam is mainly physiological, it is not a sign of weakness.
Regards,
Ed.Inderal is good for palps and tremor. Not much else!
Posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 20:01:23
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 19:48:46
Sorry, I forgot to ask you how slowly you tapered from diazepam.
Ed
Posted by Fallen4MyT on November 27, 2004, at 20:08:07
In reply to Re: To Paul, posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 19:58:10
I have taken valium for MANY years for anxiety..I have taken breaks from the meds up to 2-3 years...I personally think a taper is the wise and safest way to go. You know if you do say 20 mg cut to 15 and a half for a month and so on. When you think about it benzos get a bad rap...IMO because they are cheap. We depend on drugs like insulin, SSRI's (ya get withdrawals with them too they use the PC term discontinuation syndrome) and high blood pressure meds to name a few. If I went off my high blood pressure meds I would have a hypertensive crisis as one can going off many meds. You may wanna taper and or add Neurontin if you can tolerate it to help with withdrawal they use it in many treatment centers. Good luck. It's my opinion no other drug is as good as a benzo for anxiety
Posted by JACJ on November 27, 2004, at 20:18:37
In reply to Lou's response to Paul Smith-bzd » Paul Smith, posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2004, at 19:54:27
I was addicted to benzos and withdrawal was hell. I am off of them almost 9 months and still am going thru a little of w/d. I did come off of 3 mgs. of Ativan in 4 weeks. I am totally against the drug b/c of many reasons. benzo.org.uk saved my life and am so thankful. I am drug free for alomst 9 months now and feel better than ever. Yes, I do get my days but that is to be expected.
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2004, at 20:34:57
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Paul Smith-bzd, posted by JACJ on November 27, 2004, at 20:18:37
JACJ,
You wrote,[...was addicted...off 9 months... still ,...a little...better than ever...].
I have been off bzd for over 7 years.
Lou
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 20:38:14
In reply to Lou's response to Paul Smith-bzd » Paul Smith, posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2004, at 19:54:27
<<Paul,
You wrote,[....what is accurate and what is not?...].
I was one that was addicted to bzd by way of being prescribed the drug by a neurologist for another condition.
I overcame the addiction and withdrawal and have offered my experiance to help others to be free from the withdrawal and addiction.
As one to experiance these things, I could offer some of what I have experianced in relation to your question as to what is accurate and what is not as experiancing and perhaps be of some benifit to your concerns.
Lou>>Lou thanks very much. There is a lot I`d like to ask but I do not know if it would be appropriate to maybe risk overusing this site. I`d be glad to post my personal e-mail address. Is that allowed here? I came off about 2 months and a week ago but took a couple of doses on a bad day 5 days ago. I need to get back to work and living, have been cooped up four months. I hope to find practical strategies.
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2004, at 20:51:37
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Paul Smith-bzd, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 20:38:14
Paul,
You wrote,[...would like to ask...risk overusing this site....email ...need to get back ...to living...hope to find practical stratgies...].
I feel better posting on a site than emailing because others can add to the discussion. I am all for helping anyone find practical stratagies.
Lou
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 21:01:24
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Paul Smith-bzd, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 20:38:14
The paxil may help some of the symptoms as SSRI's indirectly increase gaba levels in the brain.
You may want to take an SSRI and a GABAergic anticonvulsant.
As well, zyprexa increases the concentrations of a potent GABAergic neurosteroid (can't spell it..something like alpregnalone)
What about say lyrica and paxil ??
Linkadge
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 21:03:05
In reply to Re: To Paul, posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 19:58:10
<<Hi,
Even though you needed 20mg/day in the past doesn't mean that you would need that much now. Being off the diazepam for a while may have reversed some of your tolerance, meaning you might be able to get by on a much smaller dose.
Would it be so bad to be on diazepam again? Did you have a lot of side effects?
Perhaps if you did go back on diazepam you could treat your remaining anxiety with another med which is less likely to be associated with tolerance. You don't have to be diazepam free, do you? Dependence is nothing to be ashamed off, despite what you may feel. Dependence on diazpam is mainly physiological, it is not a sign of weakness.
Regards,
Ed.>>Ed you are correct, no shame at all in dependence. And if I could erase these symptoms and stay at a reasonable dose for life with no withdrawals problems I would do it in a second. But considering my tolerance history, I have my doubts. It is sad actually. These drugs are great for anxiety, but some of us have real trouble with them.
Yes, I actually do have tolerance reversal from being off two months. When I took a 10 mg Valium early this week it knocked me back, where before I did not even feel that amount. That is pretty good proof.
By the way, I love this site. First time I have discussed this matter in an open forum, all views welcome. Have wanted this for a very long time.
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 21:20:07
In reply to Lou's reply to Paul Smith- » Paul Smith, posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2004, at 20:51:37
<<Paul,
You wrote,[...would like to ask...risk overusing this site....email ...need to get back ...to living...hope to find practical stratgies...].
I feel better posting on a site than emailing because others can add to the discussion. I am all for helping anyone find practical stratagies.
Lou>>That is fine with me and apparently longer discussions are appropriate. My initial post contained a lot of details regarding what I have read on the net. Would you be willing to analyze it, tell us what is true, what is questionable, and why? Does zealotry and/fanaticism, paranoia ever exist to any real degree, and cloud the truth here? Could reading some of these testimonies and claims, that it often takes a very long time to recover, if at all completely, create severe anxiety in and of itself, eg. self fulfilling prophecy? What about the claims of the "chemicals" found in foods, drink, all sorts of pills that supposedly make withdrawals worse?
So I got off two months ago. I tapered pretty slow. I did take a couple of doses early this week but backed off. What do you suggest from here? Thanks. Congrats on being off 7 years. :-)
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