![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 50 to 74 of 101. Go back in thread:
Posted by iris2 on September 14, 2004, at 23:30:57
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done., posted by jerrympls on September 14, 2004, at 22:39:00
Jerry,
"It was like the weight of the world had been lifted from my shoulders!!"
Great that you were able to make a decision that seems to be helping you already.
How long is your leave?
That is really great that your supervisor is your friend and able to be so helpful. You get to have a needed break from work and while on your break you'll have time, with your therapist, to explore in more depth if you really need to think about changing jobs or not.
Sistance might help you get a better perspective on it all.Things at work, especially when dealing with authority figures can get real distorted.
It is wonderful for you to have such an opportunity. It is something you can feel lucky about. Because if you are like a lot of us depressed people you probably do not feel like luck is something on your side much.
You have made me think more about trying to go back to work myself and how to deal better with it. ( perhaps part time) Thanks.
Irene
Posted by Jasmineneroli on September 15, 2004, at 0:44:27
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done. Jerry » Jasmineneroli, posted by jerrympls on September 13, 2004, at 5:32:03
Hey Jerry:
Yay! Things seem to moving forward for you! I'm SOOOOO happy for you, you most definitely deserve it.
I agree with your therapist's remarks, taking a step down isn't the same as failing or not meeting a standard. It's giving yourself a mental holiday, and chance to remove yourself from a negative rut/habit. From there you can always move up again, you've done it before. It's hard to take a breath and do it, cuz I've been in that place earlier this year. Just had to finally admit to myself "no, I'm not superwoman, I can't handle all this stuff in my condition and it DOESN'T MATTER THAT I CAN'T!" I fought with it for several months, until things got really rough, and I had let go of my image of my capabilities. I knew how good I could be, in optimium health, I just had to accept that I wasn't at that time. Some of us have high standards for ourselves and are strong and don't want to "give in" or feel weak. If we had cancer and were experimenting with different drugs, we'd step-down or take time off, wouldn't we??????I read your later post about taking some leave....excellent plan, I'm so glad your manager has been supportive, tell him psycho-babble people appreciate guys like him a lot!!!
As to your Pdoc - that's too bad he doesn't seem that attentive. Does he take notes? Mine always takes loads of notes whilst I'm talking, and on my next visit he's obviously gone over them before I come in. He often asks questions about things I'd been highly reactive to or emotional about before - to guage how I'm doing I guess. Then when I get home, I realize he'd been probing on those old issues and think "how clever!". Tell yours to take notes, so he can check how your reactions/feelings are changing.
I'm glad you're going to ask about trying new meds...it's always a pain to keep experimenting, but it seems to be the only way to find something that works.
I think you will feel a bit better now that you are taking some control and realizing that you've used a lot of courage to do that.How did the sleep specialist app't go? I'd be interested to read what happened there.
Keep it up Jerry, things are looking better :)
Best regards,
Jas
Posted by TexasChic on September 15, 2004, at 8:52:01
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done., posted by jerrympls on September 14, 2004, at 22:39:00
That's fantastic! Its good that you have someone on your side at work. He sounds like a wonderful person. I know what you mean about getting the weight of the world off your shoulders. Enjoy it! And be good to yourself. Your deserve some rest and relaxation. You are a stronger person than you realize. Not everyone could have handled things this well.
Posted by jerrympls on September 15, 2004, at 17:36:49
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done. » jerrympls, posted by TexasChic on September 15, 2004, at 8:52:01
You all are so wonderful! Thanks for your responses!
I'm not sure how long I'll be on leave - perhaps another 2-3 weeks. The good thiing about that is I get to keep my health benefits, but the leave is unpaid and I don't have any disability insurance in place. So, I'm relying on my parents to help me out. They've been pretty good so far - but sometimes they can be stubborn about things. We'll see...cross your fingers.
As far as seeing the sleep specialist, he diagnosed me with Restless Legs Syndrome and prescribed .125mg of Mirapex to be taken at night. I took it last night and it helped me sleep pretty well! I also am going to have a full sleep study done depending on what my insurance will cover.
I see my pdoc tomorrow so I'll keep you all posted on what happens....
Thanks again!! You all are great! I'm lucky to have this board to post to!
Jerry
Posted by sooshi on September 15, 2004, at 20:52:20
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done., posted by jerrympls on September 15, 2004, at 17:36:49
That's great news Jerry! Let us know how it goes! You've given us all such, such, FAITH!!!
Good luck!
Sooshi
Posted by jerrympls on September 18, 2004, at 10:39:27
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done. » jerrympls, posted by sooshi on September 15, 2004, at 20:52:20
I think I want to fire my pdoc. Everytime I see him I tell him I have severe anhedonia - a TOTAL lack of pleasure and motivation. But he just makes a note of it and that's it -he doesn't do anything.
The sleep specialist I saw prescribed me .125mg of Mirapex at night for restless legs and I think it helps - but wears off after 3 -4 hours. Then my pdoc said "Well, maybe that Mirapex will help with the anhedonia."
Huh? How can one VERY LOW dose at NIGHT help? I thought for anhedonia I'd have to take it a couple times a day at least?
I dunno?Anyone know?
Thanks
Jerry
Posted by jerrympls on September 20, 2004, at 0:59:06
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done. » jerrympls, posted by iris2 on September 8, 2004, at 8:35:55
Uh-OH-
All- I'm getting that sinking feeling...I'm becoming more depressed again....lonely...hopeless...angry. I'm seeing my therapist twice a week now...and we've uncovered a lot of stuff. But now I'm thinking "So what? Now I know I've wanted more validation from my mother - how does that help?" I mean, if you have pain in your finger and find out that it's a splinter - that doesn't make the pain go away - you know?
My only support is you guys and my therapist....if you're still out there, I'd appreciate some.....
Thanks all
Jerry :-(
Posted by iris2 on September 20, 2004, at 4:01:21
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done., posted by jerrympls on September 20, 2004, at 0:59:06
> Uh-OH-
>
> All- I'm getting that sinking feeling...I'm becoming more depressed again....lonely...hopeless...angry. I'm seeing my therapist twice a week now...and we've uncovered a lot of stuff. But now I'm thinking "So what? Now I know I've wanted more validation from my mother - how does that help?" I mean, if you have pain in your finger and find out that it's a splinter - that doesn't make the pain go away - you know?
>
> My only support is you guys and my therapist....if you're still out there, I'd appreciate some.....
>
> Thanks all
>
> Jerry :-(
Jerry,Good analogy about the splinter. If you find out the pain is from a splinter in you finger than you have done yourself a great service as now , after you figure out what tool to use, you can "remove the splinter" causing the "pain" to subside.
Your example:
As for needing more validation from your Mother once you figure out how, again what tool to use, you can give to yourself the validation you needed so much from her if you still need it. Or perhaps in recognising the need you will learn to no longer have it as you now know it will not be fulfilled.Sounds like your work with your therapist is going well:)
Posted by flipsactown on September 20, 2004, at 4:48:13
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done., posted by jerrympls on September 20, 2004, at 0:59:06
Jerry,
What I have learned through 12 years of therapy is that if you can't make peace with the past, and are constantly looking back, then it will become very difficult to move on and to look to the future.
You mentioned that you are gay. Are you out of the closet? If you aren't, then there is were most of your depression is coming from.
My son came out of the closet at 22 years old and I wished he had come out earlier because my wife and I could have been even more supportive early on. We love him just the way he is and he was depressed since high school and yet when we talked with him, he was unable to tell us for fear of us rejecting him and his sexuality. Now he has graduated from college and works full time and has his own apartment. I hope this info has helped you. Don't beat yourself up. You are trying your best and that is all you can do. Take care.
FST
>
> All- I'm getting that sinking feeling...I'm becoming more depressed again....lonely...hopeless...angry. I'm seeing my therapist twice a week now...and we've uncovered a lot of stuff. But now I'm thinking "So what? Now I know I've wanted more validation from my mother - how does that help?" I mean, if you have pain in your finger and find out that it's a splinter - that doesn't make the pain go away - you know?
>
> My only support is you guys and my therapist....if you're still out there, I'd appreciate some.....
>
> Thanks all
>
> Jerry :-(
Posted by jerrympls on September 20, 2004, at 18:17:28
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done. » jerrympls, posted by flipsactown on September 20, 2004, at 4:48:13
> Jerry,
>
> What I have learned through 12 years of therapy is that if you can't make peace with the past, and are constantly looking back, then it will become very difficult to move on and to look to the future.
>
> You mentioned that you are gay. Are you out of the closet? If you aren't, then there is were most of your depression is coming from.
>
> My son came out of the closet at 22 years old and I wished he had come out earlier because my wife and I could have been even more supportive early on. We love him just the way he is and he was depressed since high school and yet when we talked with him, he was unable to tell us for fear of us rejecting him and his sexuality. Now he has graduated from college and works full time and has his own apartment. I hope this info has helped you. Don't beat yourself up. You are trying your best and that is all you can do. Take care.
>
> FST
You're right about looking into the past and not getting on with the future. As for my being gay - yes I am out to my family and friends - and came out when I was about 19-20 (I'm 32 now).Jerry :-)
Posted by hope4best on September 20, 2004, at 18:36:55
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done. » flipsactown, posted by jerrympls on September 20, 2004, at 18:17:28
Hi, I just want to say that I have read your posts and you have touched my life in that after reading about your experiences, I think of you often. My sister is gay and she came out when she was about 23 years old. She often refers to the years following her coming out as her "teenage years" because she feels her "real" teenage years were wasted because she didn't feel comfortable to be herself then. Since coming out she has experienced periods of depression--she refers to those times as growing pains. I'm not saying that your experience is the same as hers, but I just feel for you both because in addition to trying to deal with depression you have a whole other set of issues related to being gay in America today. Be proud of yourself. You are not alone and many of us think of you often and send you strength and love.
Posted by Rayray on September 20, 2004, at 19:03:11
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done. » flipsactown, posted by jerrympls on September 20, 2004, at 18:17:28
Hi Jerry,
Hang in there! I'm a gay man myself, and no stranger to depression. That we manage to survive at all in this society is amazing. It's not surprising to me that 30-40% of our community is battling with alcoholism and addiction (according to some estimates).
From my experience, you are also at a very tough age. My 30's were a mess. In any case, I offer my support, and feel free to Babble Mail me.
Take care,
Ray
Posted by Jasmineneroli on September 20, 2004, at 23:25:07
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done., posted by Rayray on September 20, 2004, at 19:03:11
Hey Jerry:
Sorry to read that things are a low right now.
Your therapist sounds awesome, but your Pdoc doesn't :).
You've been given great advice by the other posters about your feelings concerning your mother. The past cannot be changed. Don't let the past have any hold over you now. It will keep you from moving forward...keep talking to your therapist. Your self-esteem will always be in chains until you let go of that past. Just remember, you had no control over your mother's response to you.
It's fantastic to see you posting so much and looking for answers on everything...that's a positive sign, you're taking action, where you can. Keep going Jerry :).
Is it possible to change your Pdoc? Do you like him? I can't quite believe that he hasn't heard of brain zaps. Sounds to me like your Pdoc is pretty invalidating.I did some research into Mirapex that might help you regarding your other posts too(insomnia/brain zaps etc.).
First off, it's usually prescribed as an anti-Parkinson's med, and secondly for Restless Leg Synd. It's a Dopamine agonist with a preference for D3 receptors, but affects D2 and D4. I found some research where it was being studied for treatment resistant depression as well.
In the studies, it wasn't being used alone but with AD's. It was apparently quite successful in conjunction with Amitriptyline and also with Imipramine (TCA's). (BTW, I also have RLS...and my 1st ever med was Amitriptyline for RLS, before my GAD was diagnosed!)
Mirapex has also been used succesfully with SSRI's - namely Prozac and Celexa. However, there was more hyper-activity and motor agitation with these drugs.But overall the combo was considered effective for TR depression. So that's something to consider in terms of future med choices.
BUT, the side effects might be what is causing your problems. Listed most commonly are: Insomnia, abnormal dreams, dizziness, hallucinations, visual abnormalities and involuntary movements, jerkiness. <Your insomnia/dreams???>.
Less common:Twitching, restlessness, thinking abnormalities. <Worsening of depression???>.
Rare: Convulsions. <Visual abnormalities/dizziness/twitching/jerkiness/convulsions....could these combine neurologically as "brain zaps"????>.
Just raising some questions, maybe you're experiencing Mirapex side effects? Although, I have known 2 people on Effexor who had "brain zaps", whilst taking it.
Also your dose is quite low - a starting dose, common for RLS. The dosage used as an augmenter for depression was .3mg
If you think the Mirapex is causing your zaps and insomnia, there are other drugs for RLS. But also a lot AD's seem to work for it too. Ask your Sleep specialist.
My 2 cents on sleep medications (and I had terrible insomnia associated with GAD and hormonal changes for years): Mogodon (out like a light, slept for hours, but "hung-over" the next day, could only use on occasion-not each night). Zopiclone (Imovane), fell asleep quickly but usually awoke 4-5 hours later, but didn't feel sedated during the next day. Remeron (very effective in low doses, but I felt sedated and drunk ALL the time and hungry, very, very hungry!). Over the counter Anti-histamines might be helpful too. My current combo of Klonopin and Celexa seems to work quite well too.
Sorry for the long post. Take care of yourself.
Let us know how it goes for you.
Warm wishes, Jas
Posted by SLS on September 21, 2004, at 1:28:26
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done. » flipsactown, posted by jerrympls on September 20, 2004, at 18:17:28
Dear Jerry,
I see such a huge positive change in you since a few weeks ago. It is such a blessing that you have found so many wonderful friends here. I couldn't possibly add to the caliber of advice you have received. This thread really has been inspiring. I just didn't want it to slip past your awareness that this outpouring of love and support is in large part due to how attracted people are to the real you, and that you ought to be proud of the person you turned out to be and are continuing to become.
- Scott
Posted by jerrympls on September 22, 2004, at 17:52:10
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done. » jerrympls, posted by SLS on September 21, 2004, at 1:28:26
Anhedonia - UGH!!!!!
I have all this time off from work and besides seeing my therapist 2x weekly I'm not doing much of anything. Those of you who have anhedonia know that I'm not making excuses here- but I just don't want to do anything - I have no desire to read, listen to music, do laundry, walk, etc.. My apartment is a wreck - however I managed to clean one corner. But it was emotionally and physically painful.
Now I'm starting to feel worried that when I go back to work in 2-3 weeks weeks I won't have resovled my anger/validation issues as far as work is concerned and this medical leave will be for nothing (yes I have brought this up with my therapist). I'm also afriad that I'll fall back into the "unhealthy" patterns of taking things too personally, getting angry at my boss - even tho I know I can't change her, etc.
Any words of wisdom?
Thanks!
Jerry
Posted by flipsactown on September 22, 2004, at 18:51:36
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done., posted by jerrympls on September 22, 2004, at 17:52:10
Jerry,
The obvious is checking your AD. It sounds to me that your AD is not working. I know when I am depressed, I am easily overwhelmed with everyday tasks. Everything seems so difficult that I say to myself why bother and that I will never catch up anyway. The same goes for doing what was once pleasurable becoming too much of a chore and why bother? Classic case of negative thinking of depression. You probably already know this if your therapist is into CBT. The only thing you can do, besides checking your AD, is to take one thing or chore at a time. Just completing one task will make you feel better and the sense of accomplishment goes along way that you may even want to complete another task. Please don't beat yourself up. Take one thing or day at a time and you won't feel so overwhelmed and depressed.
FST
> Anhedonia - UGH!!!!!
>
> I have all this time off from work and besides seeing my therapist 2x weekly I'm not doing much of anything. Those of you who have anhedonia know that I'm not making excuses here- but I just don't want to do anything - I have no desire to read, listen to music, do laundry, walk, etc.. My apartment is a wreck - however I managed to clean one corner. But it was emotionally and physically painful.
>
> Now I'm starting to feel worried that when I go back to work in 2-3 weeks weeks I won't have resovled my anger/validation issues as far as work is concerned and this medical leave will be for nothing (yes I have brought this up with my therapist). I'm also afriad that I'll fall back into the "unhealthy" patterns of taking things too personally, getting angry at my boss - even tho I know I can't change her, etc.
>
> Any words of wisdom?
>
> Thanks!
> Jerry
Posted by jerrympls on September 22, 2004, at 19:02:53
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done., posted by flipsactown on September 22, 2004, at 18:51:36
> Jerry,
>
> The obvious is checking your AD. It sounds to me that your AD is not working. I know when I am depressed, I am easily overwhelmed with everyday tasks. Everything seems so difficult that I say to myself why bother and that I will never catch up anyway. The same goes for doing what was once pleasurable becoming too much of a chore and why bother? Classic case of negative thinking of depression. You probably already know this if your therapist is into CBT. The only thing you can do, besides checking your AD, is to take one thing or chore at a time. Just completing one task will make you feel better and the sense of accomplishment goes along way that you may even want to complete another task. Please don't beat yourself up. Take one thing or day at a time and you won't feel so overwhelmed and depressed.
>
> FST
Thanks FST for your reply. I'm on Effexor XR 375mg. It keeps me at a dysthimic level but doesn't do much else. I must admit I am supposed to be taking Concerta 2xdaily and I haven't been doing that because - again - all I want to do is rest and be "lazy."
I was better as far as anhedonia on Nortriptyline and Dexedrine - but my hands shook so much that my co-workers would come up to me and say "Are you ok? Your hands are shaking." I even had problems standing still and even playing my cello my hands shook so much. I've thought about going back to that combination - but is there anything to stop the hands from shaking? I was even on Ativan and that didn't help.
Anyway, thanks for your advice - I truely appreciate it.
Jerry
Posted by hope4best on September 22, 2004, at 21:02:47
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done. » flipsactown, posted by jerrympls on September 22, 2004, at 19:02:53
Hi, just wanted to add my 2 cents...Recently switched to a new doctor b/c my previous one wouldn't agree to let me try Cymbalta. Turned out the new doc didn't want to prescribe it for me either, but she did suggest adding a mood stabilzer (specifically Lamictal)...she explained it by saying a mood stabilizer will often "boost" an AD, giving extra energy, etc. Have you ever tried adding a mood stabilizer? I haven't tried it myself (yet) but maybe someone on here has some experience to share.
Also, last year I took time off work for reasons similar to yours, and I felt paralyzed...I couldn't seem to do anything, least of all something productive like you are doing by posting on and reading the boards and trying to help yourself. :)
Posted by jerrympls on September 23, 2004, at 22:10:33
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done. (nm), posted by jujube on September 23, 2004, at 19:40:45
On the topic of anhedonia - I just went to see Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow. It was a great movie - but I just felt plain throughout the whole movie. UGH!
Am a too much of a whiner??
Posted by jujube on September 24, 2004, at 7:50:41
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done., posted by jerrympls on September 23, 2004, at 22:10:33
No, Jerry, you are not a whiner. I have to tell you that when I was on Effexor XR (just went off of it two weeks ago), I felt the same way. I didn't matter what I did, I was just going through the motions. I have never had a problem motivating myself (well, maybe a slight problem once in a while when I am experiencing really bad PMS), but the last few months that I was on Effexor, I just didn't care and it was starting to get to me. I couldn't figure what was going on with me, but I knew I didn't like it. I am not trying to scare you (and I am truly sorry if I am). All I am saying is that you need to take charge, and tell your doctor how you are really feeling, and discuss the possibility that maybe Effexor is not quite doing it. If the Concerta does not agree with you (shaky hands, etc.), then the doctor needs to identify an alternative. If you think Effexor XR is not giving you the boost you need, then you need to be assertive and get the doctor to discuss alternative meds or a more suitable augmentation strategy. ADs are supposed to help us get back on our feet so that we can begin the real work of recovery (i.e., therapy, exercise, improved diet, socializing). This is your life that is being dealt with here, not the doctor's. Assert yourself as a patient (and ultimately as a consumer). Your doctor works for you! I mean, would you go back to a mechanic or re-hire a contractor who did not do the work to your satisfaction? I certainly wouldn't. In the meantime, if you haven't already done so, talk to someone on the alternatives board about natural supplementation that might possibily help address the adhedonia. I am only now starting to explore natural remedies, but I think there may be things that can help. Hang in there, be assertive and take control. Take good care Jerry.
Tamara
> On the topic of anhedonia - I just went to see Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow. It was a great movie - but I just felt plain throughout the whole movie. UGH!
>
> Am a too much of a whiner??
Posted by Jasmineneroli on September 24, 2004, at 17:08:45
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done., posted by jujube on September 24, 2004, at 7:50:41
Jerry:
I totally agree with Tamara, she put that so well!
Get that Pdoc looking at alternatives for you. He might need to try something that is not one his "automatic/comfort-zone" choices. He needs to get creative and really listen to you! He might learn something he can use with others!
As to the shakey hands and Concerta, I've known people have that reaction quite commonly to dexedrine, and they've alleviated it by lowering the dose. You could suggest that to your Pdoc too.
I want to see that movie soon, too :). Looks like a good one!
Best wishes,
Jas
Posted by jerrympls on September 24, 2004, at 17:54:29
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done. » jujube, posted by Jasmineneroli on September 24, 2004, at 17:08:45
I must have mislead you all about the shaky hands. I meant that while on Nortiptaline it made my hands shake - NOT the Concerta or Dexedrine.
Thanks for your replies!
Jerry
Posted by jerrympls on September 24, 2004, at 17:56:52
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done. » jujube, posted by Jasmineneroli on September 24, 2004, at 17:08:45
Anyone else NOT a morning person? I tried to get up earlier this morning and even take my Concerta - but the anhedonia held strong and and went back to sleep on the couch and woke up at 4pm (central time). UGH. Everytime that happens I feel quilty - as if I ruined a whole day.
I really do need to contact my pdoc about changing meds or something...
*sigh*
Jerry :-)
Posted by jujube on September 24, 2004, at 19:09:31
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done., posted by jerrympls on September 24, 2004, at 17:56:52
Jerry,
Just a question. Are you eating? I mean, if you are not at least getting some protein and healthy food into your system, it could be making the adhedonia even worse. If you don't feel like you can muster the energy to fix a sandwich or a meal, go to the drug store and pick up some high protein meal replacement shakes (Boost or Ensure) and some protein or energy bars. You can at least get a bit of protein and other nutients with these. I use them because I just tend to get caught up in thing and forget to eat. I have had one too many episodes of dizziness and almost fainting (caused by drops in blood sugar - which incidently can cause feelings of low mood) because of my bad eating habits. I know it must be hard. I have said this in my previous message, but I really find just flipping on the radio as soon as I wake up (almost the first thing I do), does make a bit of a difference in my day. When I was really down, I would be almost shocked to find myself singing along with a song and even dancing. Anyways, hang in there and do your best to get your pdoc to listen to you. Take good care.
Tamara
> Anyone else NOT a morning person? I tried to get up earlier this morning and even take my Concerta - but the anhedonia held strong and and went back to sleep on the couch and woke up at 4pm (central time). UGH. Everytime that happens I feel quilty - as if I ruined a whole day.
>
> I really do need to contact my pdoc about changing meds or something...
>
> *sigh*
>
> Jerry :-)
Posted by jerrympls on September 24, 2004, at 19:25:48
In reply to Re: Thanks all - I'm done. » jerrympls, posted by jujube on September 24, 2004, at 19:09:31
Thanks Tamara
My eating habits aren't the greatest. I just don't want to drive to the grocery store and have to figure out what to get. I hate cooking too. So I end up ordering in a lot...which isn't great for my waist line. Then I end up eating mostly at night - which again I know isn't healthy.
I'll take your advice and get some protein shakes, etc. and try to get my eating schedule back on track.
Thanks for the advice!!
Jerry
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.