![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6925 to 6949 of 10407. Go back in thread:
Posted by lorily on July 11, 2004, at 15:49:58
In reply to Xyrem - Why isn't anyone curious?, posted by pablo1 on July 11, 2004, at 2:17:33
Pablo, There's a lot more to it than "bowing in humility to God through AA" If you read the book, Alcoholics Anonymous, you would know that. You can find it online, by the way, free of charge. I'm not even sure what you're topic is in this, but I saw that quote and had to jump in.
Posted by Shyla on July 12, 2004, at 8:00:23
In reply to Re: Going off of Effexor, posted by lorily on July 1, 2004, at 18:39:50
> I can't understand why you would be taking Effexor every 4 days. I think you would be prolonging your withdrawals rather than getting off of them. I've read several people's posts about it and this is the first I've heard of it.
> I'm at 37.5, started there, then went up to 75 last Sept when I was having great things happen and had no reaction to them. 4-5 weeks ago cut it down, I've stopped taking depakote since Sunday night and very nervous about stopping Effexor.
> As for anyone with the sexual side effects problem, my doctor prescribed viagra (yes I'm female) and it does work. It increases the flow of blood to the genitals, making us more sensitive. My problem was not lack of desire, but lack of response. I hope this helps everyone.Well Lorily, I said I would report back after I had tried Viagra. I happily report that I had a wonderful experience. Thank you for the lead. Shyla
Posted by lorily on July 12, 2004, at 8:22:12
In reply to Re: Going off of Effexor » lorily, posted by Shyla on July 12, 2004, at 8:00:23
Shyla,
That's absolutely wonderful, fabulous news!!!!
Congrats on getting your mojo back. :)
I hope other women read this.
Posted by Harlock on July 12, 2004, at 10:01:21
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me, posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 10:12:30
Howdy... I'm curious what you mean about not being able to drink on wellburtrin or any other med for that matter. I know you mean alcohol, but do you get sick if you mix alcohol with WB or such?
Most of these meds, well, it seems like most meds in general should not be mixed with alcohol. Of course, I still do it.
Depakote didn't mix with alcohol for me. I could have 2 beers, and feel like I had a hangover, I mean, right after I finished the 2nd beer. The next day would be rough too (hangover).
I'm on WB now, been so for a while. Also started Lamictal, and Sybiax at night. I don't even get hangovers now.. It's really strange. I'm not complaining though. ;)
Posted by Harlock on July 12, 2004, at 10:08:40
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me, posted by pablo1 on July 10, 2004, at 11:31:01
A bottle and a half??? Every night??? Are you serious? You're going to destroy your liver if you really drink this much, and at this frequency.
Could you stop drinking if you wanted to? My personal definition for alcoholism is when you can't stop drinking, and you drink to the point of being drunk each time you drink.
Personally, I can't drink alone. I need to be at a bar with friends or something similar. A friend of mine drinks the hard stuff at lunchtime, while working, by himself. He also drinks on weekends and tells me he gets more house-related work done when he's drinking. That kinda baffles my mind.
If I drink 3 times in one week (more than 3 drinks), then I feel bad, meaning, I feel like I'm drinking way too much. Interesting how different people's drinking habbits are.
Posted by pablo1 on July 12, 2004, at 10:17:09
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me, posted by Harlock on July 12, 2004, at 10:01:21
Wellbutrin made me unable to tolerate drinking. It made me feel bad, what else can I say. I gradually drank some more as I got used to it but was not pleasant. Wellbutrin was overall not pleasant at all for me.
> Howdy... I'm curious what you mean about not being able to drink on wellburtrin or any other med for that matter. I know you mean alcohol, but do you get sick if you mix alcohol with WB or such?
>
> Most of these meds, well, it seems like most meds in general should not be mixed with alcohol. Of course, I still do it.
>
> Depakote didn't mix with alcohol for me. I could have 2 beers, and feel like I had a hangover, I mean, right after I finished the 2nd beer. The next day would be rough too (hangover).
>
> I'm on WB now, been so for a while. Also started Lamictal, and Sybiax at night. I don't even get hangovers now.. It's really strange. I'm not complaining though. ;)
>
Posted by pablo1 on July 12, 2004, at 10:38:22
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me » pablo1, posted by Harlock on July 12, 2004, at 10:08:40
I know that's way too much and cannot continue. My liver was OK last time the doc checked. More likely I'll die from smoking before that incapacitates me. I can stop drinking and do not get withdrawl but life is not pleasant due to lingering anxiety perhaps and lack of ever feeling truly relaxed so I wander back to it for the relaxing effect.
> A bottle and a half??? Every night??? Are you serious? You're going to destroy your liver if you really drink this much, and at this frequency.
>
> Could you stop drinking if you wanted to? My personal definition for alcoholism is when you can't stop drinking, and you drink to the point of being drunk each time you drink.
>
> Personally, I can't drink alone. I need to be at a bar with friends or something similar. A friend of mine drinks the hard stuff at lunchtime, while working, by himself. He also drinks on weekends and tells me he gets more house-related work done when he's drinking. That kinda baffles my mind.
>
> If I drink 3 times in one week (more than 3 drinks), then I feel bad, meaning, I feel like I'm drinking way too much. Interesting how different people's drinking habbits are.
>
>
Posted by Harlock on July 12, 2004, at 10:44:05
In reply to Re: Need help! » Harlock, posted by Corafree on July 9, 2004, at 15:54:08
That's horrible news about your family. I knew a couple of coworkers with similar situations - Their parents and family disowned them because they were gay. That's sad.
My parents are real pieces of work, but even they wouldn't diss me. They are horribly concerned about my depression. They go over the top though and think I'm just nuts, which is annoying at best. Lately they met another extended family member who suffers from depression, and now they have a better grasp on the disorder.
I have a wife and 2 small children that like my parrots ;), loves me no matter what my problems are. It's good to know you have someone that cares. All I really need is 1-2 people that care about me, and I'm content. Everyone else who disses me can go take a flying leap. ;)
I hate to say this, but hang in there! Well, that's better than "just get over it", like most clueless people say to depression sufferers.
Take care
> Three wonderful children care about me. But how can I continue to allow myself to take their time, money, and maybe ruin their relationships. I refuse to. When my father died, my family of origin dissed me, or disrespected me, disregarded me. No one but my father stood by me in this struggle. I turned to his brother and we talked, I called him. Today I called both of his numbers and it sounded like the phone hung up. Today I called my mother and asked her if I could move into one of her two empty houses near my children. She says 'no, that she may not even want to keep them'. She inherited a large amount of money, and borrowed another 100thousand and all of my family of origin are enjoying the new business she built in another state, not close. I am here. I asked her please not to include me because all I wanted was a home here by my children. She didn't blink an eye or turn her head to say NO. Anyway, the idea of moving closer to my children may help me. They are very busy with their lives and I see maybe two of them once a week. They never just come over to visit. They are just too busy. With borderline personality disorder, you tend to alienate people because of the way you communicate with them. Now, I ask one of my daughters to accompany me to doctor visits...to speak for me. I'm agoraphobic, don't even want to walk down the way to get my mail. My family of origin has dissed me. The children are to be given to, not taken from. Can you kind of see how I feel about that? If my father were here, he would help me. I told my mother I wrote a will and she giggled and said ok, bye.
Posted by Shyla on July 12, 2004, at 11:06:51
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me » pablo1, posted by Harlock on July 12, 2004, at 10:08:40
I personally struggle with trying to control my intake. My problem is that getting high feels good to me. I don't seem to have that internal "shut-off" valve like those who know when to quit. It does disturb me, and I feel like I'm fighting with myself. I try not to drink during the work week.
Posted by Harlock on July 12, 2004, at 12:01:14
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me » Harlock, posted by Shyla on July 12, 2004, at 11:06:51
Heh, I think it feels good to most people. ;)
I'm pretty good at just going cold turkey on various things like alcohol, sweets, too much food, smoking, etc. With all my bipolar strangeness, it's good to have one thing going for ya anyway.
What I do in my head is tell myself that alholic drinks, desserts, etc, are like poison to your body and have no nutritional value. That way, I have a real hard time consuming these things. I make them taste bad, in my head, so I end up not craving them. This seems to work for me. It's also a good thing that I've never been a huge fan of beer, never got into wine, and get ill when I smell hard liquor. ;)
Posted by Shyla on July 12, 2004, at 14:21:01
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me » Shyla, posted by Harlock on July 12, 2004, at 12:01:14
It sounds like you don't have a problem with alcohol then.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 12, 2004, at 16:52:26
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal is actually fun for me » Harlock, posted by Shyla on July 12, 2004, at 11:06:51
> I personally struggle with trying to control my intake...
I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding drinking (and AA) to Psycho-Babble Substance Use. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/subs/20040604/msgs/365420.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Mellissa on July 13, 2004, at 11:38:08
In reply to Everyone's different, but..., posted by Racer on October 24, 1999, at 22:14:55
I have been on effexor for over a year now. When I first started taking it I could not stop yawning and I did not sleep for two days. Now I am trying to lower my dosage and I have heard that effexor is one of the hardest antidepressant to get off of. I could not really tell that it was doing anyting for me but my family and friends noticed imediately. If I skip more than one day of not taking it I cry for no reason and am very mood...so it must be working.
Posted by PoohBear on July 13, 2004, at 12:37:08
In reply to Re: Does Effexor work, posted by Mellissa on July 13, 2004, at 11:38:08
> I have been on effexor for over a year now. When I first started taking it I could not stop yawning and I did not sleep for two days. Now I am trying to lower my dosage and I have heard that effexor is one of the hardest antidepressant to get off of. I could not really tell that it was doing anyting for me but my family and friends noticed imediately. If I skip more than one day of not taking it I cry for no reason and am very mood...so it must be working.<
For me, Effexor works.
Many here have their issues with it, but for me, it has been great, though not without its caveats:
I have had all of the normal "startup" side effects, ie, excessive yawning, sleep disruption, sexual (erectile) dysfunction, etc., but those have all either passed or have been taken care of through other means.
Effexor HAS dulled my emotions, but this hasn't been a negative thing. My moods are much more even now and I have control over my thoughts like I have never had in the past... The blackness that I used to have to deal with on a daily basis is gone.
Ask yourself WHY you need to get off it? There are many GOOD reasons: financial, drug interaction, ineffectiveness, etc, BUT, whatever you do, ONLY do it after discussing your relevant issues with you pDoc.
In addition to Effexor XR 150mg once per day, I am taking generic Ritalin 10mg twice per day for ADHD and Seroquel 100mg at night for sleep.
Good luck!
Tony
Posted by lorily on July 13, 2004, at 13:46:46
In reply to Re: Does Effexor work, posted by PoohBear on July 13, 2004, at 12:37:08
Tony, I agree with you on the asking yourself why get off it. I just stayed on it until I had a reason, I mean, I toyed with the idea of being free from the bondage of HAVING to take a pill(s) and being at the mercy of the psych being able or wanting to see me at refill time, like when she was going on vaca and decided to just refill scripts, no changes. Leaving me, who had a plan for withdrawal, in the "take control of my own well-being mode." Leaving someone else in the office in an awful state with meds that weren't working. Little things like that. I don't want to have to take meds, but I am ever so grateful that I had the opportunity and finally agreed to take them at all. They saved my life in ways I can't even get into here. As for the effexor, i'd never have started it if I knew about the withdrawal (so I'm glad I didn't know) Another thing for me was when the ob/gyn asked what I planned to do if I were to become pregnant. Was I aware of the damage the meds I was on has on a fetus? Well, they're just horrible!!!!!!!!!! That was a nice push for me. Also, I just found out I have celiac's disease. One of my meds had gluten in it, which I'm allergic to.
And, for the coop-dee-gra (I know that's spelled horribly) The FDA has recently released information that ADs just may not be good for us after all. Not all of us anyway. My meds have served their purpose for me and I am happy to say that they have helped me get back to where I can help myself.
Posted by Atticus on July 13, 2004, at 16:55:24
In reply to Re: Does Effexor work, posted by lorily on July 13, 2004, at 13:46:46
> Tony, I agree with you on the asking yourself why get off it. I just stayed on it until I had a reason, I mean, I toyed with the idea of being free from the bondage of HAVING to take a pill(s) and being at the mercy of the psych being able or wanting to see me at refill time, like when she was going on vaca and decided to just refill scripts, no changes. Leaving me, who had a plan for withdrawal, in the "take control of my own well-being mode." Leaving someone else in the office in an awful state with meds that weren't working. Little things like that. I don't want to have to take meds, but I am ever so grateful that I had the opportunity and finally agreed to take them at all. They saved my life in ways I can't even get into here. As for the effexor, i'd never have started it if I knew about the withdrawal (so I'm glad I didn't know) Another thing for me was when the ob/gyn asked what I planned to do if I were to become pregnant. Was I aware of the damage the meds I was on has on a fetus? Well, they're just horrible!!!!!!!!!! That was a nice push for me. Also, I just found out I have celiac's disease. One of my meds had gluten in it, which I'm allergic to.
> And, for the coop-dee-gra (I know that's spelled horribly) The FDA has recently released information that ADs just may not be good for us after all. Not all of us anyway. My meds have served their purpose for me and I am happy to say that they have helped me get back to where I can help myself.
>
As an Effexor "newbie" (I've been taking it for about six weeks now following a depressive episode that culminated in a suicide attempt), I'm really glad I stumbled across this site. This is my first posting. During my hospitalization, I found the Effexor did an astonishing job of pulling me back from the edge of the abyss. I've spent eight long years struggling with every SSRI, tricyclic, and even anti-psychotic medication that my doctors could think of, but only the Effexor has really controlled that sense of having a black, bottomless pit in my gut. For a long time, I was in real denial about my clinical depression and the debilitating panic disorder that went hand-in-hand with it, and I desperately wanted to somehow get back to a state where I didn't need any meds at all. This led to a lot of noncompliance with med schedules, and this kind of behavior usually blew up in my face. So, to respond to lorily's statement, I understand what it's like to resent having to be so dependent on pharmaceuticals. But I guess at this point I've come to accept the fact that my mental illness isn't going to go away like a cold. It's more like having diabetes, I think; I can manage it, control it, but never be rid of it. That acceptance has gone a long way toward making me able to better deal with Effexor's side effects, and the other three meds I have to take just to keep the Effexor from running wild and creating new problems (Propanol, for the high blood pressure the Effexor has created; Klonopin, to take the edge off the powerful stimulant effects of the Effexor; and trazadone, to help me get some sleep while my body adjusts to this witch's brew of meds). I'm back at work and not lying on a mortuary slab somewhere, and there's a lot to be said for that. It's not a perfect solution, but it's the best I've come across since this depression really slammed me (and destroyed my marriage in the process) 8 years ago. I only discovered this site yesterday, but I've been poring over years of postings since then. I do have a question for anyone out there who might know: Is Effexor the only SNRI out there, or have other SNRIs (perhaps more refined ones) made it through FDA testing and to the market? Anyone know? Thanks for listening. Atticus
Posted by lorily on July 13, 2004, at 18:13:03
In reply to Re: Does Effexor work, posted by Atticus on July 13, 2004, at 16:55:24
Atticus,
I'm so happy that you're out of Hell and here with us. I feel badly that you had to lose so much to get here, but you're here. I have read postings about a med that does what effexor does without the side effects and withdrawals. I've been coming to this site about 2 weeks, so if you look back to around the 27th of June you will run across it, I'm sure. I don't think it's out just yet here in the US, and I think it starts with a C.
I was taking depakote, trazadone before the effexor. I refused to believe I really needed an AD and finally, finally just agreed to it. I am also a recovering alcoholic and struggling for years. I only was able to get a grip on my recovery after relieving the depression. I did not realize how depressed I was until I wasn't depressed. In just days of taking effexor I felt better. I was getting these tingling feelings in my jaw that reminded of my mescaline days years and years ago, and realized that tingling was from smiling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By all means stay right where you are, as I mentioned, I decided to try to do without only after very serious consideration. The frustration the doctor put me through did give me a good push I must say.
I'm so happy for you that you are feeling better. Welcome to life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by pablo1 on July 13, 2004, at 18:14:59
In reply to Re: Does Effexor work, posted by Atticus on July 13, 2004, at 16:55:24
One thing I recall reading is there are no comparable meds to switch from Effexor without mixing meds and going off-label. crazymeds.org had some ideas I think.
I'm suprised you say you get powerful stimulant effects from Effexor. You must be at a fairly high dose?
I was never really in a black hole that badly
Posted by PoohBear on July 13, 2004, at 19:22:43
In reply to Re: Does Effexor work, posted by Atticus on July 13, 2004, at 16:55:24
I'm very glad that you were able to find a med that works. If you read back through some of the threads you may come across my story, though not nearly as dramatic as yours. I had to deal with dark thoughts and suicidal ideation, though I never followed through and I don't believe that I would have. Still, it's very unnerving to imagine what it would feel like to have a bullet go through one's head or be tempted to flip the car at speed.
Whew!
My "cocktail" is 150mg of Effexor XR for depression, 20mg of Ritalin for ADHD and 100mg of Seroquel for sleep at night.
Like you, I've decided that given my history and my family history, I most likely have a chemical imbalance that will always need some "tweaking", and like you, I think of it as no different than someone on meds for any other life-threatening illness. The difference is the fact that depression and mental illness in general is regarded by many if not most people as something spooky or that they outright deny.
Effexor DOES have MAJOR side effects and MAJOR discontinuation effects. Would I have taken it if I knew ahead of time? I honestly don't know. I do know that my quality of life was not what I wanted and that many of my friends have seen a positive change. So all in all, I believe it's worth it and I'll deal with the withdrawal if and when I need to.
Welcome back to the land of the living; I'm glad that your attempt on your life failed. You are precious and deserve to live.
Tony
Posted by esskay on July 13, 2004, at 22:51:07
In reply to Re: Going off of Effexor, posted by LynnM. on July 2, 2004, at 1:55:27
I've been off effexor for almost 3 weeks now and am feeling much better. I was on 75mg per day for over a year and stopped taking it at the 75mg dose because I lost insurance and couldn't afford the $115/month cost.
I get short with people a little bit faster but am also laughing more and enjoying myself more. I'm also getting my sex drive back. The alarming zaps have disappeared and I'm no longer continually dehydrated. My dreams have gotten better and although I'm not sleeping quite as well as I used to, I know it's a more natural sleep.
After reading some posts, it seems as if the withdrawal side effects linger for a long time. I'm feeling tiny, tiny little tings every now and again (like twice a day).
Hey: I've noticed that a lot of people are writing about effexor and substance abuse-- that was not my case, but is effexor commonly used to treat that?
esskay
> > I can't understand why you would be taking Effexor every 4 days. I think you would be prolonging your withdrawals rather than getting off of them. I've read several people's posts about it and this is the first I've heard of it.
>
> I'm trying to get OFF of Effexor. I don't want to just quit cold turkey. I'm gradually slowing down to decrease intensity of the withdrawal symptoms I'm experiencing: headache, nausea, brain zaps, sporadic itching.
>
>
Posted by LynnPerley on July 14, 2004, at 7:35:16
In reply to Re: Does Effexor work, posted by PoohBear on July 13, 2004, at 12:37:08
Effexor XR helped me get through a major depression. I was unable to take other meds due to side effects and effexor xr had some too, but I dealt with them. I was initially prescribed effexor xr by my family doctor and I only went to a psydoc after he referred me (once my dosage reached 150mg and I was still needing help). I took meds only for over a year and it was not until I got cognitive behavioral therapy in addition to the meds that my life was improved beyond just "functioning".
I would suggest that those who are considering taking effexor xr, or those who are taking it but are either not fully functional or are concerned about withdrawal, get themselves to a psychiatrist for medication administration. I think if I had been seeing a psychiatrist from the beginning I might have achieved a proper therapeutic regimen sooner.
Effexor xr did work for me. If I have another major depression and I need meds, I will go straight to a psychiatrist. If he or she recommends effexor xr I would not hesitate to take it again.
Posted by Atticus on July 14, 2004, at 8:48:22
In reply to Re: Does Effexor work » Atticus, posted by PoohBear on July 13, 2004, at 19:22:43
Tony and lorily,
I really appreciate your kind words and encouragement. The chaotic day of the suicide attempt (June 2) now seems almost surreal, like something that happened in a dream or to someone else. When I catch sight of the three long scars on my left wrist and forearm in the shower, it's now difficult for me to imagine the mindset that put them there, or dialing 911 as I started to get lightheaded and faint, or the cops and paramedics showing up, etc.
Tony, you made an especially good point when you described how many people see mental illness as "scary" or something imaginary, rather than as something that has a biochemical basis. When I first started on the med merry-go-round in 1996, I realized that it was affecting my behavior at work. Since I worked at a university, I thought people there might be a little more enlightened about something like this, so I called together my staff and explained exactly what was going on. I did the same with my boss. But unfortunately, what I soon found was that EVERYTHING I did was being attributed to the illness. Everyone has a frustrating day at work once in a while, but even the mildest display of emotion on my part set gossiping tongues a-wagging. They did find it "spooky" -- even frightening on some level, although I never had any outbursts of temper or anything like that. Eventually, I felt so uncomfortable at that place that I switched jobs, and vowed never to let anyone at work know about the illness again, so that I wouldn't be viewed exclusively through that lens. It's similar, I suppose, to how a person in a wheelchair doesn't want to be seen as merely an addendum to the chair. The obvious downside to this is that I started to feel like the depression was some terrible, dark secret, and I had to wage this battle without a lot of the support that people with a non-mental illness can count on; it was just me and my pdoc. I didn't know enough to go looking for a site like this, so I started to feel incredibly isolated psychologically, and saw myself as freakish, abnormal. Post-hospitalization, I've been in an intensive outpatient treatment group, which has really helped, but that ends next Tuesday (by decree of my HMO -- it won't pay for any more sessions). This site is a really helpful place to go now that I'll be going back to just meeting with my pdoc again. I picked the name "Atticus" for this bulletin board because the character says in "To Kill a Mockingbird," "Never judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes." It's nice to know that there are so many people out there who have walked a mile in my shoes, and therefore they can, I think, understand this situation better than my pdoc ever really will be able to. Atticus
Posted by lorily on July 14, 2004, at 9:46:48
In reply to Re: Does Effexor work, posted by Atticus on July 14, 2004, at 8:48:22
Atticus, Isn't it amazing how much can change in such a short time? It's sooo important to remember this and be very aware of your mental health and any changes towards "that dark place"
I don't appreciate having to keep on my toes all the time and analize "what do I feel like this?" etc, but it's necessary for me if I want to stay well.
I found this site by searching ask jeeves for effexor withdrawal. Funny how things work.
Posted by Corafree on July 14, 2004, at 12:11:00
In reply to Re: Does Effexor work, posted by Mellissa on July 13, 2004, at 11:38:08
Yep, I think Effexor and Effexor-XR work. The bit of dullness is a tradeoff for emotional roller-coastering. I can still cry and laugh. There is just a bit of that free creative thought process dulled. I, as said before, am a poor metabolizer, so I take 75mg am and approx. 5-6 later, I take 37.5mg. I have to take something for sleep. I take trazodone 50mg. I have bad things going on in my life currently that would challenge any medication though, so my suicidal ideation is still there. I have chronic pain also. All in all, I think Effexor and Effexor-XR are probably better than SSRIs (have tried all) for me. Effexor and Effexor-XR may be a bit more 'out there', but guess you have to be willing to take the risk. The dosage and time regimen of Effexor-XR are SO IMPORTANT. The regimen can make or break this medication for you, did for me. When I waited until around 6pm to take the follow-up dose of 37.5mg, it/I was awful. The dosage and time regimen of Effexor-XR are SO IMPORTANT.
Posted by Corafree on July 14, 2004, at 12:16:59
In reply to Re: Does Effexor work » Atticus, posted by PoohBear on July 13, 2004, at 19:22:43
Please see my posts regarding dosage regimen of Effexor-XR. My dosage and the time taken totally rid me of side effects!
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.