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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1003 to 1027 of 1313. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on July 11, 2004, at 7:35:21
In reply to Re: Going through Effexor Withdrawl now, posted by Frisky_Cat on July 11, 2004, at 5:28:39
> I have to protest the comments below. There is no hard evidence that antidepressants increase depression.
Yes there is. There is enough to be actionable.
These are powerful drugs eliciting unpredictable effects on a brain that we have very little understanding of. Many drugs produce depression as a frequent side effect. Drug manufacturers are required to include this fact in the packaging of their products. It makes for a long list of very diverse drugs. Antidepressants are not teleologically exempt from producing undesirable mood alterations because they have some sort of biological "safety" that permits only antidepressant effects and precludes depressogenic effects. For any given individual, there may be certain antidepressants (or any other type of drug) that will exacerbate the clinical depression and induce suicidal states. Prozac has, and will continue to cause suicides as long as prescribing physicians continue to think like you do.
> The most logical explanation for the fact that sometimes people who take antidepressants commit suicide is
> 1. Coincidence
> 2. the antidepressants give them enough energy to commit suicide.Both of these explanations are absolutely valid. However, I would appeal to you that you leave open your mind to the possibilities of a third, especially if you are in a position to influence the medical treatment of anyone suffering from depression.
By the way, statistics do demonstrate that antidepressants cause suicide. It is statistics that are fueling the whole uproar regarding the use of SSRIs in pediatrics. I am sure that the statistics are there for adults too. We just need an expert like you to look for them once the trial data becomes public.
On a more anecdotal note: The following drugs made my depression moderately - severely worse. Reboxetine and moclobemide in particular induced a suicidal state.
amoxapine
bupropion
donepezil
idazoxan
mirtazapine
moclobemide
protriptyline
reboxetine
triiodothyronine
valproate
Best wishes,- Scott
Posted by SLS on July 11, 2004, at 7:39:29
In reply to Re: Going through Effexor Withdrawl now, posted by Frisky_Cat on July 11, 2004, at 5:28:39
> I have to protest the comments below. There is no hard evidence that antidepressants increase depression.
Yes there is. There is enough to be actionable.
These are powerful drugs eliciting unpredictable effects on a brain that we have very little understanding of. Many drugs produce depression as a frequent side effect. Drug manufacturers are required to include this fact in the packaging of their products. It makes for a long list of very diverse drugs. Antidepressants are not teleologically exempt from producing undesirable mood alterations because they have some sort of biological "safety" that permits only antidepressant effects and precludes depressogenic effects. For any given individual, there may be certain antidepressants (or any other type of drug) that will exacerbate the clinical depression and induce suicidal states. Prozac has, and will continue to cause suicides as long as prescribing physicians continue to think like you do.
> The most logical explanation for the fact that sometimes people who take antidepressants commit suicide is
> 1. Coincidence
> 2. the antidepressants give them enough energy to commit suicide.Both of these explanations are absolutely valid. However, I would appeal to you that you leave open your mind to the possibilities of a third, especially if you are in a position to influence the medical treatment of anyone suffering from depression.
By the way, statistics do demonstrate that antidepressants cause suicide. It is statistics that are fueling the whole uproar regarding the use of SSRIs in pediatrics. I am sure that the statistics are there for adults too. We just need an expert like you to look for them once the trial data becomes public.
On a more anecdotal note: The following drugs made my depression moderately - severely worse. Reboxetine and moclobemide in particular induced a suicidal state.
amoxapine
bupropion
donepezil
idazoxan
mirtazapine
moclobemide
protriptyline
reboxetine
triiodothyronine
valproate
Best wishes,- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 11, 2004, at 8:20:34
In reply to Re: Going through Effexor Withdrawl now, posted by Frisky_Cat on July 11, 2004, at 5:28:39
> I am stunned (as usual) by the inability of people on this board to think straight.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel put down.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Sharing something about your own issues and their possible role in your reaction might be an interesting exercise -- and might help others respond to you supportively.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Raggy on July 11, 2004, at 8:28:05
In reply to Re: Going through Effexor Withdrawl now, posted by Frisky_Cat on July 11, 2004, at 5:28:39
Here is the warning the FDA finally put out after years of denial. The warning was first put out for people under 18, but so many people went to Washington to protest that their loved one took their own life because of these drugs, the FDA changed the warning in March of this year, 6 months to late for us.
FDA Issues Warning on Antidepressants
Possible Suicide, Severe Depression, Anxiety, Panic Attacks in Children and AdultsMarch 22, 2004 -- The FDA is issuing a warning about the possibility of worsening depression or suicidal thoughts in people, particularly children, who take any of 10 popular antidepressants, especially at the beginning of treatment or when the doses are increased or decreased.
The FDA has sent a letter to drug manufacturers requesting labeling changes on these antidepressants -- warning of possible suicide, worsening depression, anxiety, and panic attacks in adults and children.Antidepressants involved in this warning label request are:
Prozac (also sold generically as fluoxetine)
Zoloft
Paxil
Luvox
Celexa
Lexapro
Wellbutrin
Effexor
Serzone
Remeron"We don't know that the drugs are responsible for these behavioral changes, but nonetheless we're telling physicians and families to be aware of this and that if the behaviors do emerge, to get treatment right away," said Russell Katz, a director with the FDA's Center for Drug Evaluation and Research, in a news teleconference today.
The proposed warning label will "include information about behavioral changes that may occur in patients who are prescribed antidepressant drugs," said Katz.
"This applies to adult and pediatric patients and involves the potential for suicidal thinking or suicidal behaviors and warns the physician and family about any behaviors that might emerge that haven't been experienced before," he added.
But the FDA stopped short of recommending people discontinue taking their antidepressants.
"We specifically decided not to tell people not to use these drugs," said Katz. "We don't think that is necessary at this point."
In addition to looking for signs of worsening depression, the following symptoms may also be a sign of a problem:
Anxiety
Agitation
Panic attacks
Insomnia
Irritability
Hostility
Impulsivity
Severe restlessness
Mania in both adults and children being treated with antidepressants for major depressionIf these changes appear, treatment should be evaluated, the FDA says. Medications may need to be discontinued when symptoms are severe, begin abruptly, or if they signal a new disorder.
There also is concern for people who have bipolar disorder (manic depression) but don't know it. Antidepressants have the potential for provoking a manic episode in these people, the FDA says. Doctors, patients, and family members should be on the lookout for any symptoms of mania, including feeling extremely happy or very irritable, inflated self-esteem, not needing as much sleep as usual, talking, or being more active than usual.You can check it out on the FDA site yourself.
Posted by worm on July 11, 2004, at 12:13:16
In reply to Re: Going through Effexor Withdrawl now, posted by Raggy on July 11, 2004, at 8:28:05
All I know is from my own personal experience. Even in the worst of my depression, I was never suicidal. But while I was taking Effexor, I thought about it all the time, even thinking about methods, etc.
And I didn't know it was one of the "side effects" of Effexor until I started reading these messages. So I had no reason to blame the Effexor or use it as an excuse. When I found out it could have been the
Effexor, I quit taking it, and I have never felt better.
Posted by lorily on July 11, 2004, at 15:38:51
In reply to Re: Lorily, forget my last question to you!, posted by KaraS on July 11, 2004, at 1:15:34
Kara, just to keep you updated, yesterday and today i dropped it even more and everything is FINE. Some other people are taking the decreases like 37.5 one day and nothing for 2 or 3 days, then another pill. to me that's like trying to get off something and changing your mind, lol. And they are suffering. Going down gradually and keeping a daily dose is working wonderfully for me. I was so scared as when I dropped from 75 to 37.5 just like that I did have the zap thing in the morning and understand how others are feeling. It's a similar feeling to alcohol withdrawal on the verge of seizure--something I never want to relive.
I don't think you'll have any problem going down if you're not now. That site I mentioned has a schedule for decreasing it, but with am and pm doses for tablets (because of the shorter half life than effexor xr capsules) So, near where you're at is days 52 to 54 taking 1/2 in the am and 1/2 pm, then day 55 1/4 am and 1/2 pm. Then days 56, 57 and 58, 1/4 am and 1/4 pm, Day 59 just 1/4 PM, then.........FREEDOM
Posted by lorily on July 11, 2004, at 15:57:11
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal side effects, posted by KaraS on July 11, 2004, at 1:18:42
> I was on the capsule form through 75 mg. Then I got the pill form for 37.5 mg. When I was on the capsules, I would open them and guage the amounts to cut back by. I'd pour some into a bowl, lick it off and then drink some fluid to wash it down. Then I'd close the capsule again. It worked out well. Now it's even easier with the pills. They're easy to break in half and then into quarters.Kara, (I think that's your post above) I just had to giggle at your description of "licking" up your meds!!!! The things we go through. So, if you were on xr, and now on regular release give yourself a bigger congrats. You're feeling good and the half life is way shroter than xr! You'll be fine going down
Posted by KaraS on July 11, 2004, at 16:06:08
In reply to Re: Lorily, forget my last question to you!, posted by lorily on July 11, 2004, at 15:38:51
> Kara, just to keep you updated, yesterday and today i dropped it even more and everything is FINE. Some other people are taking the decreases like 37.5 one day and nothing for 2 or 3 days, then another pill. to me that's like trying to get off something and changing your mind, lol. And they are suffering. Going down gradually and keeping a daily dose is working wonderfully for me. I was so scared as when I dropped from 75 to 37.5 just like that I did have the zap thing in the morning and understand how others are feeling. It's a similar feeling to alcohol withdrawal on the verge of seizure--something I never want to relive.
> I don't think you'll have any problem going down if you're not now. That site I mentioned has a schedule for decreasing it, but with am and pm doses for tablets (because of the shorter half life than effexor xr capsules) So, near where you're at is days 52 to 54 taking 1/2 in the am and 1/2 pm, then day 55 1/4 am and 1/2 pm. Then days 56, 57 and 58, 1/4 am and 1/4 pm, Day 59 just 1/4 PM, then.........FREEDOMLorily,
I did check out that site. Lots of great info. All doctors should be required to hand that out at the same time that they prescribe Effexor!! The schedule definitely moves faster than I was planning on going but I guess if I were to start having more symptoms than I want to tolerate, I could always stay longer at a particular level.
I can't wait to hear when you're off of the 1/4 pill. Wish I could throw you a party!!
Posted by lorily on July 11, 2004, at 16:09:44
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by pandareina on July 10, 2004, at 23:39:18
V. Based on that site I mentioned in a post "look what I found" a few days ago, half life of effexor sr 75 mg takes about 5 days to get out of your system completely. But, the things you are feeling is your brain trying to do what the effexor was doing and not being able to correctly. This I did not make up. The reason we have these feelings on effexor is due to the short half life, it sends our brain into the "do it yourself mode" right away. Zoloft etc can stay in your system for MONTHS, allowing your brain to learn how to do the work on its own, slowly. That's why they reccomend taking one of the other ADs while coming off the effexor. My suggestion is to just take a little bit to curb those feelings. I know you must want to get off it ASAP, I know I did, but I cut from 75 to 37.5 for i guess 5 weeks had bad feelings the first day, so I stayed there and you may have read my other posts and I'm doing great. I feel that taking a small dose to help your brain adjust is absolutely not a bad thing, we have to remember that we have problems we need help with and you don't want to send yourself into a relapse of the depression. Take it easy and don't push yourself to do something you may not be ready for. Feeling worse as the days go on seems like your brain needs a little help for a little bit
Good luck
Posted by lorily on July 11, 2004, at 16:15:12
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal side effects » lorily, posted by itsrick on July 10, 2004, at 21:31:55
trazadone (desyryl) is an AD with very, very sedative effects. It's usually given for insomnia associated with depression. (My ordeal) Since it's an AD, my doctor did not prescribe me another to counteract the effexor withdrawal. I usually don't take it every night because I'll feel like I'd been drinking all night. but since i'm withdrawing effexor, I didn't want to take any chances. Last night I didn't take it. Feel good.
Posted by lorily on July 11, 2004, at 16:39:01
In reply to Re: Lorily, forget my last question to you!, posted by KaraS on July 11, 2004, at 16:06:08
Kara, Thanks, how great to have support, HUH? Like I said, I lowered it even from the 1/4 yest and today, especially today. For a minute I thought why even bother? but, no, I will continue this minimal dose another day or so. I have an appt to see the psych dr on the 21st. Won't she be surprised?
Posted by KaraS on July 11, 2004, at 18:08:24
In reply to Re: Lorily, forget my last question to you!, posted by lorily on July 11, 2004, at 16:39:01
> Kara, Thanks, how great to have support, HUH? Like I said, I lowered it even from the 1/4 yest and today, especially today. For a minute I thought why even bother? but, no, I will continue this minimal dose another day or so. I have an appt to see the psych dr on the 21st. Won't she be surprised?
How can you go lower than 1/4? Could you actually break that 1/4 pill in half?
Posted by KaraS on July 11, 2004, at 18:13:15
In reply to Antidepressants and suicide, posted by worm on July 11, 2004, at 12:13:16
> All I know is from my own personal experience. Even in the worst of my depression, I was never suicidal. But while I was taking Effexor, I thought about it all the time, even thinking about methods, etc.
>
> And I didn't know it was one of the "side effects" of Effexor until I started reading these messages. So I had no reason to blame the Effexor or use it as an excuse. When I found out it could have been the
> Effexor, I quit taking it, and I have never felt better.That's frightening. They really should warn people more that this could be a side effect. It's never happened to me but if it had, I would sure like to have known the cause. Could save a lot of people a lot of trouble - not to mention saving lives!
Posted by lorily on July 11, 2004, at 19:24:50
In reply to Re: Lorily, forget my last question to you!, posted by KaraS on July 11, 2004, at 18:08:24
I have the capsules. Not very scientific or accurate, but I do the best I can.
Posted by KaraS on July 11, 2004, at 22:59:10
In reply to Re: Lorily, forget my last question to you!, posted by lorily on July 11, 2004, at 19:24:50
> I have the capsules. Not very scientific or accurate, but I do the best I can.
Of course - that makes more sense!
Posted by alan38 on July 12, 2004, at 6:15:45
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by lorily on July 11, 2004, at 16:09:44
I have been totally off effexor for 4 weeks and am still having to take (1) claritin every other day to curb the Brain flashes/Zaps. Would you say this par for the course??? That is the only withdrawal symptom I have at this point.
Do you know if the other "popular ADs" out there cause the brain zaps as well??? Reason being, I was on Lexapro/Zoloft/Paxil and finally effexor from 9/2003 to July 5, 2004 (last day of effexor). Probably just my brain trying to do it on it's own.Your thoughts.....
Posted by alan38 on July 12, 2004, at 6:21:02
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal side effects » alan38, posted by dizzzzy on July 9, 2004, at 16:19:46
The claritin D or Benadryl virtually eliminate the dizziness/brain Zaps ( do you get those?). I don't know the Phamacology but it does work.
What has been the length of time on your coming off Effexor (withdrawal period)?
Posted by annesand on July 12, 2004, at 7:09:35
In reply to Re: Going through Effexor Withdrawl now, posted by Raggy on July 10, 2004, at 23:28:56
Which issue of Self is it in? I looked at the July issue on a store shelf yesterday and didn't see it.
Posted by annesand on July 12, 2004, at 7:12:33
In reply to Re: Going through Effexor Withdrawl now, posted by Frisky_Cat on July 11, 2004, at 5:28:39
Why the nastiness? It really doesn't help anything.
Posted by lorily on July 12, 2004, at 8:08:01
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by alan38 on July 12, 2004, at 6:15:45
Alan, that site I mentioned has a lot of really good info in it. According to that and other info I've gathered, it all depends on how long you were taking it and how slowly/quickly you withdrew it from your system.
I'm going pretty slow but steadily downward and feel good. Today I haven't taken anything, felt a little off-kilter walking to the bus, but I'm going to see how it goes. I brought a very small amount (a tad less than yesterday which was less than a 1/4) just in case I feel too uncomfortable. I'm trying to avoid all that pain!!!!!
Are you taking any other meds? I'm wondering because when I stopped the depakote, I felt side effects of effexor like when I first started it, then when I decreased it, I started feeling better. I guess I REALLY don't need it anymore!!! Maybe some of what you're feeling is due to other meds you're on?
Posted by lorily on July 12, 2004, at 8:19:36
In reply to Re: Lorily, forget my last question to you!, posted by KaraS on July 11, 2004, at 22:59:10
Kara, I haven't taken anything today yet. Feeling okay, I felt a little discombobulated walking to the bus, but OK!!! I brought a capsule with a little bit in it in case I feel uncomfortable. so far so good WHOOOOO-HOOOOOO.
Posted by Raggy on July 12, 2004, at 8:33:23
In reply to Re: Going through Effexor Withdrawl now, posted by annesand on July 12, 2004, at 7:09:35
> Which issue of Self is it in? I looked at the July issue on a store shelf yesterday and didn't see it.
It is in the July 2004 issue, on page 137. I had a hard time finding the topic also, should have been their main story.
Posted by annesand on July 12, 2004, at 8:39:21
In reply to Re: Going through Effexor Withdrawl now, posted by Raggy on July 12, 2004, at 8:33:23
Thanks! I'll grab one today.
Posted by PoohBear on July 12, 2004, at 10:08:19
In reply to Re: Worm - Antidepressants and suicide, posted by KaraS on July 11, 2004, at 18:13:15
> > All I know is from my own personal experience. Even in the worst of my depression, I was never suicidal. But while I was taking Effexor, I thought about it all the time, even thinking about methods, etc.
> >
This is interesting, because Effexor STOPPED my suicidal ideation dead in its tracks. For me it's been a Godsend. However, as can be seen on these boards, everybody's different...Tony
Posted by pablo1 on July 12, 2004, at 10:11:08
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by pandareina on July 10, 2004, at 23:39:18
That's good that you are feeling the same exhilaration I feel getting off effexor. I've only been on 75mg for 7 weeks though so have only had brain spark effects renewed dreaming and a sort of hyper manic euphoria. And yes I'm pooping like a champ now LOL!
> ... my ears go zoom-zoom, my brain falls behind when I turn my head ... the nausea ... the poopies ... the confusion ... But thank God, I have no depression - on the contrary, I cannot sleep. I am hyper, happy (too happy), calm and in control.
>
> This is my 4rd day without Effexor - the symptoms are now stronger than yesterday, and I am starting to feel a bit fed up with them. I want to tough it out - I do not want to take another type of pill or take some Effexor to take the edge off. I am looking forward to my crazy dreams ...or nightmares ... they can be fun and very scary too.
>
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