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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 849 to 873 of 1313. Go back in thread:
Posted by maxziggy2002 on May 8, 2004, at 14:24:58
In reply to Re: The potato: Chemist » maxziggy2002, posted by chemist on May 8, 2004, at 13:09:24
Yes, I wrote that last post off without thinking about it first.
But let's agree that neither of us have the expertise to explain the biochemistry involved. That's why I provided the links to those who do.
If you're interested in understanding how anti-depressants work, which is not the same as the potato theory, check out the introduction to Glenmullen's book, which is available online at http://www.prozacbacklash.com/pdf/prozBackIntro.pdf
Posted by chemist on May 8, 2004, at 15:29:46
In reply to Re: The potato, posted by maxziggy2002 on May 8, 2004, at 14:24:58
sorry, but i'm not going to agree that i lack the expertise for biochemical discussions. i will state that i am not any expert in many fields, but am indeed quite well-qualified in serveral. i will also state that although i am misinformed on certain issues such as whether or not, say, mirtazapine is a SSRI, i am not at all misinformed on biochemical mechanisms or drug structure/property relationships. the distinction is clear: there are many, many posts regarding things like ``what receptors are targeted by (some compound)?,'' which generates responses distilled from the literature (mostly). there are fewer posts that ask ``how exactly does this drug work?,'' and my understanding of these matters - especially for certain classes of drugs - is quite coherent and i have provided numerous detailed posts concerning, for instance, which sub-units of the type-A GABA receptor are implicated in benzodiazepine binding, and the chloride-gating associated with GABA-flooding of the synapse....all the best, chemist
> Yes, I wrote that last post off without thinking about it first.
>
> But let's agree that neither of us have the expertise to explain the biochemistry involved. That's why I provided the links to those who do.
>
> If you're interested in understanding how anti-depressants work, which is not the same as the potato theory, check out the introduction to Glenmullen's book, which is available online at http://www.prozacbacklash.com/pdf/prozBackIntro.pdf
Posted by maxziggy2002 on May 8, 2004, at 18:52:25
In reply to Re: The potato » maxziggy2002, posted by chemist on May 8, 2004, at 15:29:46
Forgive me "chemist". What did you say your PhD was in, neurology, psychology, or biochemistry?
Posted by seeknsolace on May 8, 2004, at 19:46:13
In reply to Re: The potato » maxziggy2002, posted by chemist on May 8, 2004, at 15:29:46
chemist, I dont want to interupt the thread going on here, but after you previously posted your very indepth experiences.. types of meds you been on.. etc. I am wondering if you can give me some input on something, if you dont mind thru email.. if not its cool.. lemme know. kalka_a@yahoo.com
thanx.
amy
Posted by caleb96 on May 8, 2004, at 21:44:57
In reply to Re: The potato » maxziggy2002, posted by chemist on May 8, 2004, at 15:29:46
> sorry, but i'm not going to agree that i lack the expertise for biochemical discussions. i will state that i am not any expert in many fields, but am indeed quite well-qualified in serveral. i will also state that although i am misinformed on certain issues such as whether or not, say, mirtazapine is a SSRI, i am not at all misinformed on biochemical mechanisms or drug structure/property relationships. the distinction is clear: there are many, many posts regarding things like ``what receptors are targeted by (some compound)?,'' which generates responses distilled from the literature (mostly). there are fewer posts that ask ``how exactly does this drug work?,'' and my understanding of these matters - especially for certain classes of drugs - is quite coherent and i have provided numerous detailed posts concerning, for instance, which sub-units of the type-A GABA receptor are implicated in benzodiazepine binding, and the chloride-gating associated with GABA-flooding of the synapse....all the best, chemist
>
> > Yes, I wrote that last post off without thinking about it first.
> >
> > But let's agree that neither of us have the expertise to explain the biochemistry involved. That's why I provided the links to those who do.
> >
> > If you're interested in understanding how anti-depressants work, which is not the same as the potato theory, check out the introduction to Glenmullen's book, which is available online at http://www.prozacbacklash.com/pdf/prozBackIntro.pdfAmen, Brother Chemist!
I'm also a biochemist by training and I thought the same thing reading max-z's post--he/she's right about nobody having all the answers, but as you well know, a BS, MS, and PhD in biochemistry do give us a heads-up on current knowledge of the scientific evidence.
Serotonin is a neurotransmitter made from the amino acid tryptophan, and (I'm not sure) may be found in very small amounts in potatoes--potatoes aren't exactly known for they're high protein content. If you want high doses of tryptophan eat dairy products and meat. Remember the old story about a Thanksgiving meal of turkey making you feel drowsy? But it won't alleviate one's depression.
Complex starches, like those found in potates, are a good way to avoid the crash affect some people feel when they eat lots of simple sugars which cause a rapid rise in blood glucose and consequent insulin release to remove it from the circulation. But to think you can treat your (major)depression by diet is probably just grasping at a placebo effect. A combination of exercise, diet, good friends and/or understanding spouse AND medical treatment are still the the best forms of support. I won't give up up my medicines because they complement my total support system.
Love & peace
Caleb
Posted by Kon on May 8, 2004, at 22:06:20
In reply to Re: The potato, posted by caleb96 on May 8, 2004, at 21:44:57
> Complex starches, like those found in potates, are a good way to avoid the crash affect some people feel when they eat lots of simple sugars which cause a rapid rise in blood glucose and consequent insulin release to remove it from the circulation
If you look at the glycemic index of different foods you will find that potatoes have relatively high glycemic responses(whether boiled or mashed. In fact, potatoes have a higher glycemic index than table sugar (sucrose). They also tend to have a relatively high insulin response.
Posted by chemist on May 8, 2004, at 22:20:16
In reply to Re: The potato » chemist, posted by maxziggy2002 on May 8, 2004, at 18:52:25
> Forgive me "chemist". What did you say your PhD was in, neurology, psychology, or biochemistry?
my Ph.D. was awarded in 1999 from the Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry at the University of Texas at Austin. My first postdoctoral appointment was in the Department of Pharmaceutical Chemistry at the University of California, San Francisco. My second postdoctoral appointment was in the Department of Chemistry at Princeton Univeristy. My former faculty position was as Assistant Professor in the Department of Chemistry at one of the University of Colorado campuses, and i was a visiting professor at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center in Denver, CO. i collaborate (not for compensation) with a privately-held pharmaceutical company, with the Molecular Design Group and focus on the general area of neurodegenerative diseases. all the best, chemist
Posted by chemist on May 8, 2004, at 22:23:04
In reply to Re: The potato, posted by seeknsolace on May 8, 2004, at 19:46:13
sent.....all the best, chemist
Posted by chemist on May 8, 2004, at 22:29:34
In reply to Re: The potato, posted by caleb96 on May 8, 2004, at 21:44:57
> > sorry, but i'm not going to agree that i lack the expertise for biochemical discussions. i will state that i am not any expert in many fields, but am indeed quite well-qualified in serveral. i will also state that although i am misinformed on certain issues such as whether or not, say, mirtazapine is a SSRI, i am not at all misinformed on biochemical mechanisms or drug structure/property relationships. the distinction is clear: there are many, many posts regarding things like ``what receptors are targeted by (some compound)?,'' which generates responses distilled from the literature (mostly). there are fewer posts that ask ``how exactly does this drug work?,'' and my understanding of these matters - especially for certain classes of drugs - is quite coherent and i have provided numerous detailed posts concerning, for instance, which sub-units of the type-A GABA receptor are implicated in benzodiazepine binding, and the chloride-gating associated with GABA-flooding of the synapse....all the best, chemist
> >
> > > Yes, I wrote that last post off without thinking about it first.
> > >
> > > But let's agree that neither of us have the expertise to explain the biochemistry involved. That's why I provided the links to those who do.
> > >
> > > If you're interested in understanding how anti-depressants work, which is not the same as the potato theory, check out the introduction to Glenmullen's book, which is available online at http://www.prozacbacklash.com/pdf/prozBackIntro.pdf
>
> Amen, Brother Chemist!
>
> I'm also a biochemist by training and I thought the same thing reading max-z's post--he/she's right about nobody having all the answers, but as you well know, a BS, MS, and PhD in biochemistry do give us a heads-up on current knowledge of the scientific evidence.
>
> Serotonin is a neurotransmitter made from the amino acid tryptophan, and (I'm not sure) may be found in very small amounts in potatoes--potatoes aren't exactly known for they're high protein content. If you want high doses of tryptophan eat dairy products and meat. Remember the old story about a Thanksgiving meal of turkey making you feel drowsy? But it won't alleviate one's depression.
>
> Complex starches, like those found in potates, are a good way to avoid the crash affect some people feel when they eat lots of simple sugars which cause a rapid rise in blood glucose and consequent insulin release to remove it from the circulation. But to think you can treat your (major)depression by diet is probably just grasping at a placebo effect. A combination of exercise, diet, good friends and/or understanding spouse AND medical treatment are still the the best forms of support. I won't give up up my medicines because they complement my total support system.
>
> Love & peace
>
> Calebcaleb, nice to meet you.....i don't necessarily think that our training makes us any more qualified to address issues that are clearly patient-specific or anecdotal, and i think you are on the same page, but please forgive me if i am making an assumption. i do think that our training does enable some of the more fundamental questions to be addressed, such as what you posted above (e.g., mechanisms of action, binding affinities, enzymatic pathways for metabolism, etc.). i am not on a ``high horse'' claiming anything other than a background that could be of use for certain matters. i also am on this board to listen to what people have to say about their experiences with meds/therapists as it pertains to me. it is a two-way street.....all the best, chemist
Posted by TanyaJean on May 8, 2004, at 23:37:54
In reply to Re: The potato, posted by caleb96 on May 8, 2004, at 21:44:57
> > sorry, but i'm not going to agree that i lack the expertise for biochemical discussions. i will state that i am not any expert in many fields, but am indeed quite well-qualified in serveral. i will also state that although i am misinformed on certain issues such as whether or not, say, mirtazapine is a SSRI, i am not at all misinformed on biochemical mechanisms or drug structure/property relationships. the distinction is clear: there are many, many posts regarding things like ``what receptors are targeted by (some compound)?,'' which generates responses distilled from the literature (mostly). there are fewer posts that ask ``how exactly does this drug work?,'' and my understanding of these matters - especially for certain classes of drugs - is quite coherent and i have provided numerous detailed posts concerning, for instance, which sub-units of the type-A GABA receptor are implicated in benzodiazepine binding, and the chloride-gating associated with GABA-flooding of the synapse....all the best, chemist
> >
> > > Yes, I wrote that last post off without thinking about it first.
> > >
> > > But let's agree that neither of us have the expertise to explain the biochemistry involved. That's why I provided the links to those who do.
> > >
> > > If you're interested in understanding how anti-depressants work, which is not the same as the potato theory, check out the introduction to Glenmullen's book, which is available online at http://www.prozacbacklash.com/pdf/prozBackIntro.pdf
>
> Amen, Brother Chemist!
>
> I'm also a biochemist by training and I thought the same thing reading max-z's post--he/she's right about nobody having all the answers, but as you well know, a BS, MS, and PhD in biochemistry do give us a heads-up on current knowledge of the scientific evidence.
>
> Serotonin is a neurotransmitter made from the amino acid tryptophan, and (I'm not sure) may be found in very small amounts in potatoes--potatoes aren't exactly known for they're high protein content. If you want high doses of tryptophan eat dairy products and meat. Remember the old story about a Thanksgiving meal of turkey making you feel drowsy? But it won't alleviate one's depression.
>
> Complex starches, like those found in potates, are a good way to avoid the crash affect some people feel when they eat lots of simple sugars which cause a rapid rise in blood glucose and consequent insulin release to remove it from the circulation. But to think you can treat your (major)depression by diet is probably just grasping at a placebo effect. A combination of exercise, diet, good friends and/or understanding spouse AND medical treatment are still the the best forms of support. I won't give up up my medicines because they complement my total support system.
>
> Love & peace
>
> Caleb
Well, the above I don't care too much about. The depression thing could be argued and re-argued. I really like sugar and carbs which I know affect my mood, making me up and down. It's not something I've studied, I feel it in my body if I've had too much of starch/sugar. If I can stick to protien and vegetables and still have fruit and grains, just in less amounts, then I know I'll feel better. I also know a potato will curb about any craving I have so that I don't go off the deep end. One potato. As far as prozac vs. potatoes, if it works for people then that's great. For whatever reason it works for people, then it works. Potatoes will not harm most people. I found EFFEXOR harmed me in more ways than one...(harmed ME, not everyone)
Posted by finelinebob on May 9, 2004, at 1:14:29
In reply to Re: The potato, posted by maxziggy2002 on May 8, 2004, at 14:24:58
I'd just like to point out, being an American of the Irish persuasion, that the National Vegetable of Ireland, being the Potato, is arguably a prevalent cause of the general good humor of the inhabitants of my ancestral homeland, above, beyond and inspite of our genetic predisposition to emotional maladies. I'd be more than happy to refer this august body to some of the best references in "Potato Theory", as referred to in an above post, but unless you can read Irish they won't be doing you much good.
Now, feel free to continue speaking the praises of this finest of tubers, and I'll raise a glass to one and all of ye.
flb
=^)PS. Me other half is Russian, and if anyone knows something better to do with a Potato than the Irish, it would be the Russians.
Posted by worm on May 9, 2004, at 1:28:20
In reply to Re: The potato ;^), posted by finelinebob on May 9, 2004, at 1:14:29
Thanks, finelinebob, for lightening up this discussion. I'll take my potato in the form of Vodka, please - seems to do wonders for my mood!
Posted by finelinebob on May 9, 2004, at 3:28:49
In reply to Re: The potato ;^), posted by worm on May 9, 2004, at 1:28:20
Tis a curse, it tis, havin' t' make light o'th' heavy as I do, but I take me duties in th' same spirit.
And, speaking of spirits, one shot of Stoly heading your way ... as soon as I can figure out how to attach it to this message.....
flb
Posted by seeknsolace on May 9, 2004, at 7:02:02
In reply to Re: The potato » caleb96, posted by TanyaJean on May 8, 2004, at 23:37:54
> > > sorry, but i'm not going to agree that i lack the expertise for biochemical discussions. i will state that i am not any expert in many fields, but am indeed quite well-qualified in serveral. i will also state that although i am misinformed on certain issues such as whether or not, say, mirtazapine is a SSRI, i am not at all misinformed on biochemical mechanisms or drug structure/property relationships. the distinction is clear: there are many, many posts regarding things like ``what receptors are targeted by (some compound)?,'' which generates responses distilled from the literature (mostly). there are fewer posts that ask ``how exactly does this drug work?,'' and my understanding of these matters - especially for certain classes of drugs - is quite coherent and i have provided numerous detailed posts concerning, for instance, which sub-units of the type-A GABA receptor are implicated in benzodiazepine binding, and the chloride-gating associated with GABA-flooding of the synapse....all the best, chemist
> > >
> > > > Yes, I wrote that last post off without thinking about it first.
> > > >
> > > > But let's agree that neither of us have the expertise to explain the biochemistry involved. That's why I provided the links to those who do.
> > > >
> > > > If you're interested in understanding how anti-depressants work, which is not the same as the potato theory, check out the introduction to Glenmullen's book, which is available online at http://www.prozacbacklash.com/pdf/prozBackIntro.pdf
> >
> > Amen, Brother Chemist!
> >
> > I'm also a biochemist by training and I thought the same thing reading max-z's post--he/she's right about nobody having all the answers, but as you well know, a BS, MS, and PhD in biochemistry do give us a heads-up on current knowledge of the scientific evidence.
> >
> > Serotonin is a neurotransmitter made from the amino acid tryptophan, and (I'm not sure) may be found in very small amounts in potatoes--potatoes aren't exactly known for they're high protein content. If you want high doses of tryptophan eat dairy products and meat. Remember the old story about a Thanksgiving meal of turkey making you feel drowsy? But it won't alleviate one's depression.
> >
> > Complex starches, like those found in potates, are a good way to avoid the crash affect some people feel when they eat lots of simple sugars which cause a rapid rise in blood glucose and consequent insulin release to remove it from the circulation. But to think you can treat your (major)depression by diet is probably just grasping at a placebo effect. A combination of exercise, diet, good friends and/or understanding spouse AND medical treatment are still the the best forms of support. I won't give up up my medicines because they complement my total support system.
> >
> > Love & peace
> >
> > Caleb
>
>
> Well, the above I don't care too much about. The depression thing could be argued and re-argued. I really like sugar and carbs which I know affect my mood, making me up and down. It's not something I've studied, I feel it in my body if I've had too much of starch/sugar. If I can stick to protien and vegetables and still have fruit and grains, just in less amounts, then I know I'll feel better. I also know a potato will curb about any craving I have so that I don't go off the deep end. One potato. As far as prozac vs. potatoes, if it works for people then that's great. For whatever reason it works for people, then it works. Potatoes will not harm most people. I found EFFEXOR harmed me in more ways than one...(harmed ME, not everyone)
>
>Im not so much writing about potatoes as the carb factor. I've noticed a couple things, 2 weeks after being off of effexor. The first week off, I was on prozac.. felt fine. After I finished my 1 weeks worth of prozac, got back to feeling nauseaus/body ached, but managed it.
After one week of this, I got a head/chest cold. I had only been sick one time, my two years on effexor. I am wondering if coming off, does something to the immune system or just purely coincidental. I've been so drugged up on cold meds, I'm not sure now how I'm tolerating being off effexor.
Now about a carb experience. During this past week, there was a down time of not having the cold meds in me, I had spaghetti for dinner. Immediately after I got done eating, prior to was feeling otherwise fine besides the cold, so I got done eating and got instantly nauseaus, body hurt really bad, just had a sudden urge to sleep, which carbs tend to do, but why the body ache and nausea? Again, maybe coincidental, but it was feeling of as when I was feeling the effexor withdrawal, also with the zaps.
Just some thoughts...
chemist.. thanks for replying, will respond soon. :)
Posted by caleb96 on May 9, 2004, at 11:05:15
In reply to Re: The potato » caleb96, posted by Kon on May 8, 2004, at 22:06:20
> If you look at the glycemic index of different foods you will find that potatoes have relatively high glycemic responses(whether boiled or mashed. In fact, potatoes have a higher glycemic index than table sugar (sucrose). They also tend to have a relatively high insulin response.Touche Kon,
I should have checked the glycemic index before I wrote that.
Caleb
Posted by caleb96 on May 9, 2004, at 11:36:17
In reply to Re: The potato » caleb96, posted by chemist on May 8, 2004, at 22:29:34
> caleb, nice to meet you.....i don't necessarily think that our training makes us any more qualified to address issues that are clearly patient-specific or anecdotal, and i think you are on the same page, but please forgive me if i am making an assumption. i do think that our training does enable some of the more fundamental questions to be addressed, such as what you posted above (e.g., mechanisms of action, binding affinities, enzymatic pathways for metabolism, etc.). i am not on a ``high horse'' claiming anything other than a background that could be of use for certain matters. i also am on this board to listen to what people have to say about their experiences with meds/therapists as it pertains to me. it is a two-way street.....all the best, chemist
>chemist,
I agree with what you're saying--I don't want to stomp on anyone's free speech. But I think it's OK to present the current body of scientific evidence to question a dubious claim. It's interesting to see the different perspectives presented about psychiatry and drugs, but if someone tells me they were cured of their mental illness by crystals or sitting under a pyramid--don't expect me to buy that.
Regards,
Caleb
Posted by caleb96 on May 9, 2004, at 11:54:17
In reply to Re: The potato, posted by seeknsolace on May 9, 2004, at 7:02:02
> > > Well, the above I don't care too much about. The depression thing could be argued and re-argued. I really like sugar and carbs which I know affect my mood, making me up and down. It's not something I've studied, I feel it in my body if I've had too much of starch/sugar. If I can stick to protien and vegetables and still have fruit and grains, just in less amounts, then I know I'll feel better. I also know a potato will curb about any craving I have so that I don't go off the deep end. One potato. As far as prozac vs. potatoes, if it works for people then that's great. For whatever reason it works for people, then it works. Potatoes will not harm most people. I found EFFEXOR harmed me in more ways than one...(harmed ME, not everyone)
> >
> >
>
> Im not so much writing about potatoes as the carb factor. I've noticed a couple things, 2 weeks after being off of effexor. The first week off, I was on prozac.. felt fine. After I finished my 1 weeks worth of prozac, got back to feeling nauseaus/body ached, but managed it.
>
> After one week of this, I got a head/chest cold. I had only been sick one time, my two years on effexor. I am wondering if coming off, does something to the immune system or just purely coincidental. I've been so drugged up on cold meds, I'm not sure now how I'm tolerating being off effexor.
>
> Now about a carb experience. During this past week, there was a down time of not having the cold meds in me, I had spaghetti for dinner. Immediately after I got done eating, prior to was feeling otherwise fine besides the cold, so I got done eating and got instantly nauseaus, body hurt really bad, just had a sudden urge to sleep, which carbs tend to do, but why the body ache and nausea? Again, maybe coincidental, but it was feeling of as when I was feeling the effexor withdrawal, also with the zaps.
>
> Just some thoughts...
>
> chemist.. thanks for replying, will respond soon. :)Hmmm. It sounds to me like you might have withdrawn from the Effexor too quickly, but since you were already feeling sick, maybe you just took a sudden turn for the worse? It's not very reliable to infer too much from one data point (i.e., your experience).
Hope you're feeling better,
Caleb
Posted by maxziggy2002 on May 9, 2004, at 15:34:25
In reply to Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by janey on November 1, 1998, at 16:30:34
It's starting to become clear to me that the dominant personalities on this board are not interested in hearing about alternatives to dangerous anti-depressants and seem vested in shooting down anyone who tries to offer them.
This seems odd. Don't you want people to get better? Just because drugs like effexor have "saved" some people's lives doesn't mean that all of us should be taking them. They are notoriously over-prescribed for mild and situational "depression", which nowadays applies to almost anything.
I was on effexor for 18 months and I hated it. It took me almost 6 months to detox from it. And yes I tapered. And all this I went through without the support of any doctor. They all thought I was crazy because they believed the lying drug company. I wasn't nor am I crazy.
Since then, I relapsed into "depression" when I lost my job. I survived it on my own and decided that I was the one who needed changing. I was overweight and lethargic. So I changed my lifestyle, beginning with diet. I gradually phased out sugar and complex carbs and found my energy level soar. So, I got off the couch and started exercising. And go figure, my mood, motivation, and concentration improved. And I lost 30 pounds.
After going out for pancakes one morning and feeling sleepy, cloudy, and lazy not too long afterwards, I searched "depression" and "sugar" on the net and found several sites referring to "sugar sensitivity", most inspired by Kathleen Desmaisons.
I don't eat the potato--I don't need it. However, I found that my lifestyle changes corresponded to Desmaisons 7 steps.
I've never felt better in my entire life. Was I ever "depressed" in the first place? Or did I suffer from extremely poor nutrition, like most North Americans? Did my doctor ever bother to find out? No, she just put me on a quick-fix and sent me on my way.
The attitudes of doctors and "scientists" are irresponsible. None of us knows what these drugs really do to our physiology. Cocaine used to be prescribed to fight "depression". Would you support that today?
There is no miracle cure for depression. YOU need to look at yourself, and YOU need to fix yourself. But so long as you cling to these drugs, you'll be powerless to do so.
Good luck to all of you. I only wish you the best life you can have.
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 9, 2004, at 17:01:47
In reply to Alternative Therapies, posted by maxziggy2002 on May 9, 2004, at 15:34:25
> It's starting to become clear to me that the dominant personalities on this board are not interested in hearing about alternatives to dangerous anti-depressants and seem vested in shooting down anyone who tries to offer them.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. I've asked you to be civil before, so now I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or email me, or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration after your block is over.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by finelinebob on May 9, 2004, at 17:02:28
In reply to Alternative Therapies, posted by maxziggy2002 on May 9, 2004, at 15:34:25
Other than waxing ineloquent about the Virtues of the Potato above, I can't say that I've followed this thread, but...
Maxziggy, if people have shot down your point of view out-of-hand, good on you for calling them on it. Lifestyle changes that improve diet and exercise will improve just about anybody's state of mind. Furthermore, giving mind-altering substances to people who don't need them is also bad medicine. If some life event knocks one "down in the dumps" and one responds with adopting poor lifestyle habits, then restoring good lifestyle habits and taking some well-considered actions to reverse the event that put one there in the first place may be all that is needed for one to restore oneself to "normal".
However, your mileage may vary.
Mine certainly does. I have training in gathering empirical data and drawing reasonable conclusions from them. The data I've collected on my own life says, for me, you are correct in part. And while I'll grant you that Western medical science does not fully understand either the biochemical neurophysiology of brain disorders or the full effects of that psychopharmaceuticals have on our brains, I'm also not ready to reject out-of-hand the work of thousands of scientists over several decades. Nortriptyline works for me.
I do not know DeMaisons' work (and it would help if she posted her qualifications more visibly on her web site -- what is her PhD in?), but I'm willing to wager that she uses methods of inquiry highly similar to many (if not most) of those scientists and doctors you label as "irresponsible". If she comes to a different conclusion to the same data, does that give her an exclusive license to responsiblity?
Her mileage may vary, too.
Dissenting views are always valuable to a group forum like this. Please keep it up ... we need it! But please don't ask or expect us all to conform to your dissent -- that kinda misses the point.
flb
Posted by chemist on May 9, 2004, at 17:22:54
In reply to Re: The potato ;^), posted by finelinebob on May 9, 2004, at 1:14:29
....awesome!!!.......all the best, chemist
Posted by chemist on May 9, 2004, at 17:33:45
In reply to Re: The potato, posted by caleb96 on May 9, 2004, at 11:36:17
>
> > caleb, nice to meet you.....i don't necessarily think that our training makes us any more qualified to address issues that are clearly patient-specific or anecdotal, and i think you are on the same page, but please forgive me if i am making an assumption. i do think that our training does enable some of the more fundamental questions to be addressed, such as what you posted above (e.g., mechanisms of action, binding affinities, enzymatic pathways for metabolism, etc.). i am not on a ``high horse'' claiming anything other than a background that could be of use for certain matters. i also am on this board to listen to what people have to say about their experiences with meds/therapists as it pertains to me. it is a two-way street.....all the best, chemist
> >
>
> chemist,
>
> I agree with what you're saying--I don't want to stomp on anyone's free speech. But I think it's OK to present the current body of scientific evidence to question a dubious claim. It's interesting to see the different perspectives presented about psychiatry and drugs, but if someone tells me they were cured of their mental illness by crystals or sitting under a pyramid--don't expect me to buy that.
>
> Regards,
>
> Caleb
hi caleb, yes, yes, i agree with you completely, i did not - and do not - want to come off as a know-it-all just because i have education/experience in a certain area. i was trying to point out that, like you aptly state, when there is a spurious post (e.g., one individual was planning on ramping up klonopin to 16 mg/day and is not taking the medication for seizures/epilepsy), i will throw my opinion in the mix and back it up with what information i can to support my post. i am on the same page as you 100% and just wanted to make it clear to you - and other posters - that i am not the font of all wisdom and knowledge here.....or anywhere, for that matter!...all the best, chemist
Posted by caleb96 on May 9, 2004, at 17:37:41
In reply to Alternative Therapies, posted by maxziggy2002 on May 9, 2004, at 15:34:25
> It's starting to become clear to me that the dominant personalities on this board are not interested in hearing about alternatives to dangerous anti-depressants and seem vested in shooting down anyone who tries to offer them.
>
> This seems odd. Don't you want people to get better? Just because drugs like effexor have "saved" some people's lives doesn't mean that all of us should be taking them. They are notoriously over-prescribed for mild and situational "depression", which nowadays applies to almost anything.
>
> I was on effexor for 18 months and I hated it. It took me almost 6 months to detox from it. And yes I tapered. And all this I went through without the support of any doctor. They all thought I was crazy because they believed the lying drug company. I wasn't nor am I crazy.
>
> Since then, I relapsed into "depression" when I lost my job. I survived it on my own and decided that I was the one who needed changing. I was overweight and lethargic. So I changed my lifestyle, beginning with diet. I gradually phased out sugar and complex carbs and found my energy level soar. So, I got off the couch and started exercising. And go figure, my mood, motivation, and concentration improved. And I lost 30 pounds.
>
> After going out for pancakes one morning and feeling sleepy, cloudy, and lazy not too long afterwards, I searched "depression" and "sugar" on the net and found several sites referring to "sugar sensitivity", most inspired by Kathleen Desmaisons.
>
> I don't eat the potato--I don't need it. However, I found that my lifestyle changes corresponded to Desmaisons 7 steps.
>
> I've never felt better in my entire life. Was I ever "depressed" in the first place? Or did I suffer from extremely poor nutrition, like most North Americans? Did my doctor ever bother to find out? No, she just put me on a quick-fix and sent me on my way.
>
> The attitudes of doctors and "scientists" are irresponsible. None of us knows what these drugs really do to our physiology. Cocaine used to be prescribed to fight "depression". Would you support that today?
>
> There is no miracle cure for depression. YOU need to look at yourself, and YOU need to fix yourself. But so long as you cling to these drugs, you'll be powerless to do so.
>
> Good luck to all of you. I only wish you the best life you can have.Well maxziggy, you make an extremely strong arguement for your case. And, as you have already experienced, depression is a disorder that can go into remission and pop up again at a later date.
I went through the first 25 years of my adult life in this on-and-off state without even realizing what my problem was. Most people wrote me off as "moody" even though I often had lots of friends and liked having a good time.
I experienced my first panic attack (depression related) when I was 18. My first year as an undergraduate in college was one of the darkest, most frightening periods of my life. Later, I even had a roommate in Grad school who nicknamed me "Mad Mike" because I would go through such dark, brooding spells.
Some of my worst spells of depression hit me in my late teens through my mid-20s. During this time I was very athletic and was an avid distance runner--and there was nothing wrong with my diet--I was in extremely good physical condition. Nevertheless, these black spells would usually last about two to four months--sometimes longer--then I'd experience a remission state for several months or even a few years.
In my early 30s, I started having periods of depression and moodiness again--ironically, this was a period where I had everything in world going for me--physically, financially and professionally. I forgot to mention that starting about age 19, I began seeing psychologists. I probably went to a half-dozen over the years--some helped a little, some didn't help at all. But the "help" was very short-lived. I couldn't beat my problem by just talking to someone.
Finally, In the mid-90s, I saw a good psychiatrist who immediately was able to diagnose me correctly. He put me on a moderate dose of Zoloft. When I saw him at my next appointment, he started cracking jokes. We both had a good laugh, and then he looked at me and said "see." I said "see what?" He said "when I first saw you, you were like a zombie--you barely spoke, you never looked me in the eye. You feel better, don't you?" That instant was like a revelation to me. I finally realized I could be happy, I could take control of my destiny instead of just drifting through life letting random chance determine my fate. For the first time I realized my life didn't have to be all gloom and doom. I finally felt great about myself despite all the flaws.
I've been taking medication fairly regularly since 1994. When I stop the drugs for a month or so, I feel that black cloud start to surround me. I'm happy for you if you can beat this problem without drugs. I wish I could, but I know I can't because I've tried so many times. So please don't trash all doctors and scientists because you realized you don't need drugs. If an alternative therapy works for you, that's great. But I don't think you're in a position to determine what's best for other people. I wish you all the best.
Love & peace,
Mike
Posted by caleb96 on May 9, 2004, at 18:28:32
In reply to Re: Alternative Therapies » maxziggy2002, posted by finelinebob on May 9, 2004, at 17:02:28
Hi flb,
>> However, your mileage may vary. <<
I hadn't given it much thought before, but my mileage DOES vary--sometimes a lot. Hmmm. Well I'll be damned.
Thanks for the tip,
Caleb
Posted by Sinnielou on May 9, 2004, at 19:48:13
In reply to Re: Alternative Therapies, posted by caleb96 on May 9, 2004, at 17:37:41
> > It's starting to become clear to me that the dominant personalities on this board are not interested in hearing about alternatives to dangerous anti-depressants and seem vested in shooting down anyone who tries to offer them.
> >
> > This seems odd. Don't you want people to get better? Just because drugs like effexor have "saved" some people's lives doesn't mean that all of us should be taking them. They are notoriously over-prescribed for mild and situational "depression", which nowadays applies to almost anything.
> >
> > I was on effexor for 18 months and I hated it. It took me almost 6 months to detox from it. And yes I tapered. And all this I went through without the support of any doctor. They all thought I was crazy because they believed the lying drug company. I wasn't nor am I crazy.
> >
> > Since then, I relapsed into "depression" when I lost my job. I survived it on my own and decided that I was the one who needed changing. I was overweight and lethargic. So I changed my lifestyle, beginning with diet. I gradually phased out sugar and complex carbs and found my energy level soar. So, I got off the couch and started exercising. And go figure, my mood, motivation, and concentration improved. And I lost 30 pounds.
> >
> > After going out for pancakes one morning and feeling sleepy, cloudy, and lazy not too long afterwards, I searched "depression" and "sugar" on the net and found several sites referring to "sugar sensitivity", most inspired by Kathleen Desmaisons.
> >
> > I don't eat the potato--I don't need it. However, I found that my lifestyle changes corresponded to Desmaisons 7 steps.
> >
> > I've never felt better in my entire life. Was I ever "depressed" in the first place? Or did I suffer from extremely poor nutrition, like most North Americans? Did my doctor ever bother to find out? No, she just put me on a quick-fix and sent me on my way.
> >
> > The attitudes of doctors and "scientists" are irresponsible. None of us knows what these drugs really do to our physiology. Cocaine used to be prescribed to fight "depression". Would you support that today?
> >
> > There is no miracle cure for depression. YOU need to look at yourself, and YOU need to fix yourself. But so long as you cling to these drugs, you'll be powerless to do so.
> >
> > Good luck to all of you. I only wish you the best life you can have.
>
> Well maxziggy, you make an extremely strong arguement for your case. And, as you have already experienced, depression is a disorder that can go into remission and pop up again at a later date.
>
> I went through the first 25 years of my adult life in this on-and-off state without even realizing what my problem was. Most people wrote me off as "moody" even though I often had lots of friends and liked having a good time.
>
> I experienced my first panic attack (depression related) when I was 18. My first year as an undergraduate in college was one of the darkest, most frightening periods of my life. Later, I even had a roommate in Grad school who nicknamed me "Mad Mike" because I would go through such dark, brooding spells.
>
> Some of my worst spells of depression hit me in my late teens through my mid-20s. During this time I was very athletic and was an avid distance runner--and there was nothing wrong with my diet--I was in extremely good physical condition. Nevertheless, these black spells would usually last about two to four months--sometimes longer--then I'd experience a remission state for several months or even a few years.
>
> In my early 30s, I started having periods of depression and moodiness again--ironically, this was a period where I had everything in world going for me--physically, financially and professionally. I forgot to mention that starting about age 19, I began seeing psychologists. I probably went to a half-dozen over the years--some helped a little, some didn't help at all. But the "help" was very short-lived. I couldn't beat my problem by just talking to someone.
>
> Finally, In the mid-90s, I saw a good psychiatrist who immediately was able to diagnose me correctly. He put me on a moderate dose of Zoloft. When I saw him at my next appointment, he started cracking jokes. We both had a good laugh, and then he looked at me and said "see." I said "see what?" He said "when I first saw you, you were like a zombie--you barely spoke, you never looked me in the eye. You feel better, don't you?" That instant was like a revelation to me. I finally realized I could be happy, I could take control of my destiny instead of just drifting through life letting random chance determine my fate. For the first time I realized my life didn't have to be all gloom and doom. I finally felt great about myself despite all the flaws.
>
> I've been taking medication fairly regularly since 1994. When I stop the drugs for a month or so, I feel that black cloud start to surround me. I'm happy for you if you can beat this problem without drugs. I wish I could, but I know I can't because I've tried so many times. So please don't trash all doctors and scientists because you realized you don't need drugs. If an alternative therapy works for you, that's great. But I don't think you're in a position to determine what's best for other people. I wish you all the best.
>
> Love & peace,
> Mike
>I'd like to start of by saying Maxziggy does make a strong arguement towards alternative therapy.
I grew up in a household with a parent who is a psyciatric med nurse. I clearly aware of drugs and depression etc in my childhood. Depression was something we never spoke of and only the truley "mad" were ever medicated. It didn't happen to OUR family, but it did it happened to me. I tried everything I could to keep myself out of the doctors office to keep myself off of medications and it worked only for awhile. I am a vegetarian I am a very healthy eater I walk and I exercise. Why couldn't I get out of bed? Why did it seem hiding under my covers made life simplier? Was it because I was "mad"? Then it happened I suffered my first anxiety attack I was paralised everything I told myself about coping and everything that helped me feel good about my life disapeared in matter of minutes. Then I decided maybe it was time I faced my biggest fear and maybe it was time I got help for MYSELF. I did and I have never been a better person. I applaud everyone that feels good with diet and exercise alone. I also have to applaud the people that have taken the step to know they can't do things alone. I wish there was a "magic" pill that makes everything go away, but there isn't. It seems I survive daily not only with the medications I am on, but with a healty lifestyle as well. Good luck to everyone with the paths they have chosen.
Shannon
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