![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 769 to 793 of 1313. Go back in thread:
Posted by TanyaJean on May 1, 2004, at 1:12:03
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by Sinnielou on April 30, 2004, at 23:20:22
"When I read the very first post I was disturbed because I have found this community to be very informative and when i read it I thought to myself if I had just returned from my doctors office with a prescription for Effexor and or had just taken my very first dose how scared I would be after reading the posts."
**I think a lot of people think "It won't happen to me." and would ignore the posts. I know I might have. I wish I had read something like this because I had no idea what this drug could do. To me anyway. I wish I had found this sooner. I know I keep writing on here, but it's providing a very good outlet. People for or against EFFEXOR are giving out a lot of useful information.
Posted by chemist on May 1, 2004, at 1:33:09
In reply to Re: please be civil » maxziggy2002, posted by Dr. Bob on April 30, 2004, at 22:06:20
> > Effexor and its maker are monsters.
> >
> > It seems to me that anyone who would spend their time reading and replying to these posts must have a vested interest in effexor, say by being an employee or investor in Wyeth, the drug manufacturer. Or maybe you work for one of the advertising agencies that makes a bundle peddling this crack on behalf of Wyeth. Or maybe you're a doctor who gets a kickback from Wyeth for prescribing it.
>
> Please don't exaggerate or overgeneralize or jump to conclusions about others.
>
> If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
>
> or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bobchemist here...i amon the same page as dr. bob...i have seen goog and not-so-good responses to effexor, in clinical settings. i do not work for wyeth. remember that individuals respond differently to medications, and there are many variables (hepatic dysfunction, renal clearance, drug interactions, herbal/drug interactions, etc, to name just a few). if it doesn't work for you, try another therapy. don't bad-mouth it on this board as the goal is to provide general information, not personal horror stories which in all likelihood will not be relevant to all genders, races, ages, and folks with other illnesses. not endorsing effexor, but throwing my opinion in the mix. many, many posters are on an extreme amount of (usually) redundant medications, and your ``problem'' with effexor might well be related to a drug-drug interation or a contraindication that a very detailed CBC might well show...all the best, chemist
Posted by TanyaJean on May 1, 2004, at 2:10:54
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by chemist on May 1, 2004, at 1:33:09
"don't bad-mouth it on this board as the goal is to provide general information, not personal horror stories which in all likelihood will not be relevant to all genders, races, ages, and folks with other illnesses."
OK, last post for me for a while. We're here because a forum was provided for us. I'm thankful for the "horror stories" because they do indeed give us much needed information, as do the "Non Horror Stories".
This may not seem relevent, but bear with me. I saw a story on the news that people who take heart medication be wary of drinking grapefruit juice WITH the heart medication as it could cause serious problems, even death. Of course not EVERYONE who drank grapefruit juice with heart medication would suffer consquences, but it was on the news all the same. Why do people have such a problem with EFFEXOR and anti depressant side effects being so well publicized?
It seems on this forum for people to talk about this very thing, the people sharing their stories are being talked down to. In many ways they're being told not to share what's happening. I may not be a chemist or doctor, but I know full well that what will happen to one person will not happen to everyone.
Posted by chemist on May 1, 2004, at 2:21:43
In reply to Re: please be civil » chemist, posted by TanyaJean on May 1, 2004, at 2:10:54
> "don't bad-mouth it on this board as the goal is to provide general information, not personal horror stories which in all likelihood will not be relevant to all genders, races, ages, and folks with other illnesses."
>
> OK, last post for me for a while. We're here because a forum was provided for us. I'm thankful for the "horror stories" because they do indeed give us much needed information, as do the "Non Horror Stories".
>
> This may not seem relevent, but bear with me. I saw a story on the news that people who take heart medication be wary of drinking grapefruit juice WITH the heart medication as it could cause serious problems, even death. Of course not EVERYONE who drank grapefruit juice with heart medication would suffer consquences, but it was on the news all the same. Why do people have such a problem with EFFEXOR and anti depressant side effects being so well publicized?
>
> It seems on this forum for people to talk about this very thing, the people sharing their stories are being talked down to. In many ways they're being told not to share what's happening. I may not be a chemist or doctor, but I know full well that what will happen to one person will not happen to everyone.
understood. the grapefruit thing is mainly limited to benzodiazepenes. a substance called bergamottin will decrease elimination of benzos via the CYP450 enzyme. it is both an inhibitor and inducer of CYP450. to the best of my knowledge, the bergamottin increase is most deleterious with bezos, but i stand corrected if you have peer-reviewed pubs indicating that heart medications - and there are numerous ones, as you know - interact with bergamottin and the CYP450 enzyme....all the best, chemist
Posted by noa on May 1, 2004, at 6:49:28
In reply to Re: are these posts representative? » noa, posted by TanyaJean on April 30, 2004, at 21:49:44
>Is it just me, or has EFFEXOR risen in popularity over the past couple of years?
I think yes.
Posted by noa on May 1, 2004, at 6:51:35
In reply to Re: are these posts representative? » noa, posted by TanyaJean on April 30, 2004, at 21:49:44
OOPS--Grammatically speaking, I realize that my "Yes" in my previous message is ambiguous! Sorry--I meant yes to its being more popular, not to "is it just me".
Posted by noa on May 1, 2004, at 6:56:16
In reply to Re: TELL OPRAH YOU HATE EFFEXORSinnielou, posted by maxziggy2002 on April 30, 2004, at 18:26:21
>It seems to me that anyone who would spend their time reading and replying to these posts must have a vested interest in effexor, say by being an employee or investor in Wyeth, the drug manufacturer. Or maybe you work for one of the advertising agencies that makes a bundle peddling this crack on behalf of Wyeth. Or maybe you're a doctor who gets a kickback from Wyeth for prescribing it.
I can assure you that this is not the case for me.
And, if we follow this logic, couldn't someone say that perhaps people who spend time writing very negative things about Effexor might have a vested interest in one of its competitors?
Posted by SLS on May 1, 2004, at 8:04:49
In reply to Re: are these posts representative? » noa, posted by TanyaJean on April 30, 2004, at 21:49:44
> Is it just me, or has EFFEXOR risen in popularity over the past couple of years? I hadn't heard of it until I was prescribed it.
I really don't know whether or not Effexor is being prescribed more often. It would not surprise me though. Like it or not, Effexor gets more people well than any of the SSRIs, and for those whom respond, promotes a greater degree of improvement. The chances of being brought into complete remission is significantly higher with Effexor than with Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, Luvox, Celexa, and Lexapro.
There are a bunch more.
These results are supported by a double-blind study of over 2000 patients conducted in 2001.
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/178/3/234
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 1, 2004, at 8:06:23
In reply to Re: please be civil » chemist, posted by TanyaJean on May 1, 2004, at 2:10:54
> Why do people have such a problem with EFFEXOR and anti depressant side effects being so well publicized?
I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding posting policies to Psycho-Babble Administration. My own response is at:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040307/msgs/342111.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 1, 2004, at 8:07:57
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by Sinnielou on April 30, 2004, at 23:20:22
Posted by seeknsolace on May 1, 2004, at 12:20:09
In reply to Does it ever end? When?, posted by seeknsolace on April 30, 2004, at 5:33:17
I read some stuff today about 5-htp, some woman decribed the ill effects of coming off effexor and how much 5-htp helped her thru the transition and with the depression in general. Still feeling like shit from effexor withdrawals, a little more tolerable today, I think in some ways I go mentally numb trying not to do too much, think too much, and also trying to disconnect from the hell ravaging my body, but in only is working slightly, in truth body still aches.. I wonder if this is what fibromyalgia or arthritis feels like, and still have the electric shocks, its very cool out today and my fingers hurt from the cold, mind you its in the 40s maybe 50s, not too extreme, just extra sensitive for whatever reason.
So anyways, gonna dive into the 5-htp tonite, 50 mgs.. will let ya know how it works, its key ingredient is tryptophan, sounds as bad as taking meth, not that I know, just tired of depending on drugs to dictate what my quality of life is going to be!
Posted by SLS on May 1, 2004, at 12:50:55
In reply to Re: Does it ever end? When?, posted by seeknsolace on May 1, 2004, at 12:20:09
> I read some stuff today about 5-htp, some woman decribed the ill effects of coming off effexor and how much 5-htp helped her thru the transition and with the depression in general.
> So anyways, gonna dive into the 5-htp tonite, 50 mgs.. will let ya know how it works,
Good luck. I hope things get better for you soon
:-)
- Scott
Posted by maxziggy2002 on May 1, 2004, at 13:01:21
In reply to Re: TELL OPRAH YOU HATE EFFEXORSinnielou » maxziggy2002, posted by noa on May 1, 2004, at 6:56:16
Yes I do have a vested interest in several of Effexors competitors: therapy, proper nutrition, and exercise.
Posted by SLS on May 1, 2004, at 13:48:17
In reply to Re: please be civil}}Dr Bob, posted by maxziggy2002 on May 1, 2004, at 12:59:25
> But if we want to actually DO something about, like alert the public, force the manufacturer to fully disclose side effects, or even start a lawsuit, then we are overgeneralizing and jumping to conclusions?
Hi.
Dr. Bob will hopefully redirect this post over to the Administration board for further discussion. I might be sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong, but I wanted to suggest to you that you continue posting here if you would like. I won't write too much here, but the following is my perspective on things.
I think what you are trying to do is admirable.
> > Effexor and its maker are monsters.
This site is moderated in a way that attempts to foster support and education in a pointed and focused way. It is a dialogue. An effort is made by posters to refine their language such that this can occur without personal attacks and exaggerated unsupported claims.
> > Or maybe you work for one of the advertising agencies that makes a bundle peddling this crack on behalf of Wyeth.
It does take some practice to write posts that don't over-generalize things as if they were absolute fact and applicable to all. Also, it takes some time to learn how to word things so that they don't accuse or judge others, even if only indirectly. The FAQ link at the top of this page offers some suggestions. You can look here:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Good luck.
Bye the way, what did you think of the links I posted regarding the relative efficacy of Effexor to the SSRIs?
- Scott
Posted by maxziggy2002 on May 1, 2004, at 14:53:15
In reply to Re: please be civil}}Dr Bob » maxziggy2002, posted by SLS on May 1, 2004, at 13:48:17
What I found interesting about these abstracts was that none of the studies lasted more than 8 weeks.
The first 8 weeks I was on effexor were nothing short of fantastic. But why aren't they conducting studies on the long-term benefits/problems? By 6 months, I was a walking zombie, and it took me another 6 months to realize it.
I lost 2 years of my life to this drug. Why aren't they studying that?? I think it's because they already know the answer, and they don't want it made public.
Posted by SLS on May 1, 2004, at 16:41:39
In reply to relative efficacy of Effexor to the SSRIs }} SLS, posted by maxziggy2002 on May 1, 2004, at 14:53:15
Hi again.
> What I found interesting about these abstracts was that none of the studies lasted more than 8 weeks.
You make an excellent, excellent point. The brevity of clinical investigations has always been a peeve of mine.
> The first 8 weeks I was on effexor were nothing short of fantastic.What was the highest dosage you took?
> But why aren't they conducting studies on the long-term benefits/problems?
There are some, but not nearly enough that have been published, I don't think.
> I lost 2 years of my life to this drug. Why aren't they studying that??
In your situation, I would say that it is the clinical judgment of your doctor that should be called into question.
> I think it's because they already know the answer, and they don't want it made public.
What do you think the answer would be if you had the ability to independently study the question?
I know you are angry, but I don't know if it is justifiable to generalize your experience with Effexor to the majority. Of course I don't know for sure, but I don't think there is a conspiracy pushing for the continued use of Effexor.
- Scott
Posted by seeknsolace on May 1, 2004, at 17:03:41
In reply to Re: relative efficacy of Effexor to the SSRIs }} SLS » maxziggy2002, posted by SLS on May 1, 2004, at 16:41:39
Hey Scott.. you seem like a nice guy.. are you married??? :) Btw, Thanks for the encouragement!
amy
Posted by Douglas T. on May 1, 2004, at 17:56:48
In reply to Re: relative efficacy of Effexor to the SSRIs }} SLS » SLS, posted by seeknsolace on May 1, 2004, at 17:03:41
I have been through the withdraral period (13 weeks of hell)
after 5 years on Effexor. I was in a fog for all of that time.
I am still not myself after almost a year. My site, dougtyler.com
has a lot of information and a way to get involved if you're like me
and want the idiots who make this stuff to pay us all back for what
we've been through. I am NOT selling anything.
Go to Effexor link at the bottom of the page. thanks and be well.
Posted by chemist on May 1, 2004, at 18:57:54
In reply to Re: relative efficacy of Effexor to the SSRIs }} SLS, posted by Douglas T. on May 1, 2004, at 17:56:48
> I have been through the withdraral period (13 weeks of hell)
> after 5 years on Effexor. I was in a fog for all of that time.
> I am still not myself after almost a year. My site, dougtyler.com
> has a lot of information and a way to get involved if you're like me
> and want the idiots who make this stuff to pay us all back for what
> we've been through. I am NOT selling anything.
> Go to Effexor link at the bottom of the page. thanks and be well....and the fact that you were taking effexor for 5 years and did not discontinue earlier makes you a victim of idiots? you are selling something: it's called a class-action lawsuit and publicity, both which would benefit you - monetarily. regardless of whether effexor has helped you (and others) or not helped you (or others) does not let you off the hook for continuing to ingest it for 5 years and then suing your doctors and wyeth. do you smoke cigarettes. too? maybe you can get some $$$ from the tobacco companies....with the most sincere wishes for your crusade, chemist
Posted by Raggy on May 1, 2004, at 19:29:09
In reply to Re: are these posts representative?, posted by SLS on May 1, 2004, at 8:04:49
I read the other day where Wyeth lost a case for fen-phen and the jury awarded the family of the women who died 3 billion dollars, which they are going to fight. In the same article it said that Effexor sales are up 31 % this year.
Posted by seeknsolace on May 1, 2004, at 20:35:23
In reply to Re: relative efficacy of Effexor to the SSRIs }} SLS » Douglas T., posted by chemist on May 1, 2004, at 18:57:54
> > I have been through the withdraral period (13 weeks of hell)
> > after 5 years on Effexor. I was in a fog for all of that time.
> > I am still not myself after almost a year. My site, dougtyler.com
> > has a lot of information and a way to get involved if you're like me
> > and want the idiots who make this stuff to pay us all back for what
> > we've been through. I am NOT selling anything.
> > Go to Effexor link at the bottom of the page. thanks and be well.
>
> ...and the fact that you were taking effexor for 5 years and did not discontinue earlier makes you a victim of idiots? you are selling something: it's called a class-action lawsuit and publicity, both which would benefit you - monetarily. regardless of whether effexor has helped you (and others) or not helped you (or others) does not let you off the hook for continuing to ingest it for 5 years and then suing your doctors and wyeth. do you smoke cigarettes. too? maybe you can get some $$$ from the tobacco companies....with the most sincere wishes for your crusade, chemist
I agree with you chemist but at the same time understand the underlying anger doug has. However, monetary settlement isnt going to give any justice to the withdrawl hell we have endured or for those to have yet go thru with it.Life isnt fair for the healthy minded or for us, chronically depressed. Money isnt going to deliver any of us, taking effexor off the market isnt going to solve anything either.
I'm sure no dr maliciously gave us effexor so that we would suffer its effects, they are human too and even if Wyeth knows of the withdrawal reactions, in some sense they have done a good thing in creating the drug. I mean it did help most of us right? Even if it was only in the beginning.. at least for a passing moment, we got to embrace life.
I know in truth, if it wasnt for effexor, taking the edge off of being bipolar, having anxiety disorder/panick attacks and seasonal effective disorder, I wouldnt have gained the strength and knowledge I learned in understanding myself, my emotions, ways to cope, especially now with the dark seasons approaching, being that bipolar is forever and it hits worse come the late fall season.
Ok just rambling now. To wrap this up, just saying there is no monetary value that give the dream and hope of being free from depression and I would give a billion dollars to know what it is to feel alive.. consistantly.
Posted by TanyaJean on May 1, 2004, at 21:14:37
In reply to Re: please be civil}}Dr Bob » maxziggy2002, posted by SLS on May 1, 2004, at 13:48:17
> Bye the way, what did you think of the links I posted regarding the relative efficacy of Effexor to the SSRIs?
>
>
> - Scott
I don't know if you're talking to Dr. Bob or to another post-er. I'm still reading through them a little at a time. Ok, so this is probably my second to last post. This caught my attention:
"Venlafaxine was significantly more effective than SSRIs in improving depression, perhaps due to enhancing both serotonin and norepinephrine."
My doctor had told me I was crashing so hard when missing a dose of PAXIL because it was just enhancing the serotonin. He put me on EFFEXOR because he said it enhanced both the serotonin and norepinephrine pathways. He said if I missed a dose, I wouldn't have such ill effects. So I wonder why I did then? I'd say it was twice as bad as when I missed the PAXIL. I also found it interesting that people with major depression fared pretty well on EFFEXOR.Thank you so much for the post-er asking "Hey Scott, are you married?" That was funny. There needs to be some levity in here and I was thinking the same thing.
Posted by TanyaJean on May 1, 2004, at 21:18:32
In reply to Re: relative efficacy of Effexor to the SSRIs }} SLS » Douglas T., posted by chemist on May 1, 2004, at 18:57:54
> > I have been through the withdraral period (13 weeks of hell)
> > after 5 years on Effexor. I was in a fog for all of that time.
> > I am still not myself after almost a year. My site, dougtyler.com
> > has a lot of information and a way to get involved if you're like me
> > and want the idiots who make this stuff to pay us all back for what
> > we've been through. I am NOT selling anything.
> > Go to Effexor link at the bottom of the page. thanks and be well.
>
>" ...and the fact that you were taking effexor for 5 years and did not discontinue earlier makes you a victim of idiots? you are selling something: it's called a class-action lawsuit and publicity, both which would benefit you - monetarily. regardless of whether effexor has helped you (and others) or not helped you (or others) does not let you off the hook for continuing to ingest it for 5 years and then suing your doctors and wyeth. do you smoke cigarettes. too? maybe you can get some $$$ from the tobacco companies....with the most sincere wishes for your crusade, chemist"**What was that??
Posted by seeknsolace on May 1, 2004, at 21:22:38
In reply to Re: please be civil}}Dr Bob » SLS, posted by TanyaJean on May 1, 2004, at 21:14:37
> > Bye the way, what did you think of the links I posted regarding the relative efficacy of Effexor to the SSRIs?
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
>
> I don't know if you're talking to Dr. Bob or to another post-er. I'm still reading through them a little at a time. Ok, so this is probably my second to last post. This caught my attention:
>
> "Venlafaxine was significantly more effective than SSRIs in improving depression, perhaps due to enhancing both serotonin and norepinephrine."
>
> My doctor had told me I was crashing so hard when missing a dose of PAXIL because it was just enhancing the serotonin. He put me on EFFEXOR because he said it enhanced both the serotonin and norepinephrine pathways. He said if I missed a dose, I wouldn't have such ill effects. So I wonder why I did then? I'd say it was twice as bad as when I missed the PAXIL. I also found it interesting that people with major depression fared pretty well on EFFEXOR.
>
> Thank you so much for the post-er asking "Hey Scott, are you married?" That was funny. There needs to be some levity in here and I was thinking the same thing.That came from me tonyajean, but he still hasnt answered *sniff*! ;)
Posted by chemist on May 1, 2004, at 22:04:44
In reply to Re: relative efficacy of Effexor to the SSRIs }} SLS, posted by seeknsolace on May 1, 2004, at 20:35:23
> > > I have been through the withdraral period (13 weeks of hell)
> > > after 5 years on Effexor. I was in a fog for all of that time.
> > > I am still not myself after almost a year. My site, dougtyler.com
> > > has a lot of information and a way to get involved if you're like me
> > > and want the idiots who make this stuff to pay us all back for what
> > > we've been through. I am NOT selling anything.
> > > Go to Effexor link at the bottom of the page. thanks and be well.
> >
> > ...and the fact that you were taking effexor for 5 years and did not discontinue earlier makes you a victim of idiots? you are selling something: it's called a class-action lawsuit and publicity, both which would benefit you - monetarily. regardless of whether effexor has helped you (and others) or not helped you (or others) does not let you off the hook for continuing to ingest it for 5 years and then suing your doctors and wyeth. do you smoke cigarettes. too? maybe you can get some $$$ from the tobacco companies....with the most sincere wishes for your crusade, chemist
>
>
> I agree with you chemist but at the same time understand the underlying anger doug has. However, monetary settlement isnt going to give any justice to the withdrawl hell we have endured or for those to have yet go thru with it.
>
> Life isnt fair for the healthy minded or for us, chronically depressed. Money isnt going to deliver any of us, taking effexor off the market isnt going to solve anything either.
>
> I'm sure no dr maliciously gave us effexor so that we would suffer its effects, they are human too and even if Wyeth knows of the withdrawal reactions, in some sense they have done a good thing in creating the drug. I mean it did help most of us right? Even if it was only in the beginning.. at least for a passing moment, we got to embrace life.
>
> I know in truth, if it wasnt for effexor, taking the edge off of being bipolar, having anxiety disorder/panick attacks and seasonal effective disorder, I wouldnt have gained the strength and knowledge I learned in understanding myself, my emotions, ways to cope, especially now with the dark seasons approaching, being that bipolar is forever and it hits worse come the late fall season.
>
> Ok just rambling now. To wrap this up, just saying there is no monetary value that give the dream and hope of being free from depression and I would give a billion dollars to know what it is to feel alive.. consistantly.
>
i concur. for those who have not picked up on my personal history, i have been on the development end and the receiving end of psychopharmaceuticals. and i don't mean marketing. improperly diagnosed as unipolar depression with agoraphobia and GAD over 10 years ago, i ran the gamut from luvox to remeron to celexa to parnate to paxil, and not in that order. additionally, there was tegretol, trileptal, topamax, neurontin, depakote. and then there were (concurrently) ambien, xanax, restoril, dalmane, halcion, klonopin, valium, and ativan. i am certain i missed a few, but it took a psychotic break while on parnate and a visit to a leading authority on bipolar (details for anyone who wants to know; involved with DSM-III and is a proponent of verapamil) to get things kind of straight. did i mention geodon and dexedrine? probably not.....or ritalin, come to think of it....you and the rest of us are not alone. and as you point out, effexor and countless other meds have helped many, and the last thing any drug manufacturer wants is for their product to fail, and that is for financial reasons. we, their target audience, also want success, because our lives can be (at least) marginally better if the right combination is found. it is not to anyone's benefit to go after drug companies, and citing a dearth of long-term studies is usually because the drug has not been on the market for long-term, randomized, controlled longitudinal studies. want a target? health insurance companies. preexisting conditions ranging from ``have you seen a mental healthcare practicioner in the past five years?'' to ``do you have high cholesterol?'' put you in the high-risk category. i am looking at the recent insert from a script i had filled yesterday for 60 2 mg generic alprazolam (xanax) tablets from a common pharmacy in a grocery store: my savings vs. the brand-name was $173.48, and i do not have prescription coverage. instead of being on the hook for $196.56, i strolled out for $23.08. yet i digress: doug's anger is misdirected, and i am no stranger to anger, but i know where to draw the line. if you don't like your therapist, try another. if your shrink is predisposed to prescribing for you a drug that is ineffective, try another. the greatest realization we have within ourselves is the ability to instigate change and not feel victimized by an industry that, on the whole, has done more good than harm. all the best, chemist
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