![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 757 to 781 of 1313. Go back in thread:
Posted by noa on April 30, 2004, at 18:21:51
In reply to Re: Effexor works for me!! » noa, posted by TanyaJean on April 29, 2004, at 23:00:36
I won't argue with what you said about education. I agree.
And perhaps another aspect of all of this is the managed care trends which have led to more people not getting proper psychiatric care--for example--
*being seen for psychiatric care by general physicians (primary care docs) and not by psychiatrists with adequate psychopharm knowledge
*if seen by pdocs, not with close enough attention (length of eval sessions, length of med management sessions, frequency of med management sessions, accessibility when something isn't going well with a med, etc.)
*health plans restricting coverage for therapy
*health plans putting only certain meds on their formulary, which makes the others very expensive for plan members because they have to pay the difference in price, or even pay totally out of pocket, which can lead to doctors prescribing only formulary meds, or health plans making them substitute supposedly equivalent meds that we know are not at all chemically equivalent (this may be cost-savings related mostly, although who knows, it may go along with the marketing issues you and others have mentioned, just on a more institutional level rather than on the individual doctor level)
Posted by maxziggy2002 on April 30, 2004, at 18:26:21
In reply to Re: TELL OPRAH YOU HATE EFFEXOR, posted by Sinnielou on April 30, 2004, at 15:19:02
What I wonder is this:
If you are SO happy with your effexor experience, why are you cruising an anti-effexor message board? I don't cruise websites critcizing Advil, for example, with which I am satisfied.
It seems to me that anyone who would spend their time reading and replying to these posts must have a vested interest in effexor, say by being an employee or investor in Wyeth, the drug manufacturer. Or maybe you work for one of the advertising agencies that makes a bundle peddling this crack on behalf of Wyeth. Or maybe you're a doctor who gets a kickback from Wyeth for prescribing it.
Effexor and its maker are monsters. They lied to us to get us on it; then, when we couldn't get off, they told us through our doctors that we were crazy. And what do they get out of all of this? The billions of dollars that WE paid to use their product and continue to pay when we can't get off.
Heroin dealers could be so lucky. At least when you use heroin, you know what you're getting yourself into.
Posted by Sinnielou on April 30, 2004, at 18:39:05
In reply to Re: TELL OPRAH YOU HATE EFFEXORSinnielou, posted by maxziggy2002 on April 30, 2004, at 18:26:21
> What I wonder is this:
>
> If you are SO happy with your effexor experience, why are you cruising an anti-effexor message board? I don't cruise websites critcizing Advil, for example, with which I am satisfied.
>
> It seems to me that anyone who would spend their time reading and replying to these posts must have a vested interest in effexor, say by being an employee or investor in Wyeth, the drug manufacturer. Or maybe you work for one of the advertising agencies that makes a bundle peddling this crack on behalf of Wyeth. Or maybe you're a doctor who gets a kickback from Wyeth for prescribing it.
>
> Effexor and its maker are monsters. They lied to us to get us on it; then, when we couldn't get off, they told us through our doctors that we were crazy. And what do they get out of all of this? The billions of dollars that WE paid to use their product and continue to pay when we can't get off.
>
> Heroin dealers could be so lucky. At least when you use heroin, you know what you're getting yourself into.I knew what I was getting into before I started the Effexor. Every single question I had I wrote down and every symptom I had I wrote down as well and I tokk everything with me for my very first doctors appointment. Effexor wasn't my first drug and I'm sure it won't be my last, but I also educate myself before I even step foot into the dcotors office. The bottom line is my doctor isn't god nor does she know very single thing also the makes of all anti depressents aren't god as well. If it wasn't for sites with useful information people with all the trust and faith in there doctors will be land slided when it comes time to be medicated. I came to this site because of another medication not Effexor and when I saw posts I felt maybe the fact that I had a good expierence with the drug would be helpful for someone else. Like I said just because it works for me doesn't mean it will work for someone else. Just because Advil works for you it doesn't work for me so am I going to slander Advil?? I think not.
Posted by noa on April 30, 2004, at 18:49:22
In reply to Re: are these posts representative? » Camille Dumont, posted by TanyaJean on April 30, 2004, at 14:11:26
I agree that there should be full disclosure, of course. And better education.
When Effexor was first coming into use, I was more forgiving of MDs who didn't realize, and therefore didn't tell patients about or were surprised by the occurence of withdrawal symptoms--there just was not very much experience with this yet. I wasn't as patient with MDs I heard about who seemed to dismiss what people were telling them about SEs and withdrawal experiences, though. I believe docs need to be open to learning from their patients, and be openminded about reality possibly being different than what the med manuscript says. ESPECIALLY with these relatively new meds, etc.
I did see it more as an omission of the manufacturer. But even then, I don't know what doses they were doing their large scale studies on and how much data they had early on.
But now that there has been a decade of widespread use of this med and it is clear that there is the risk of withdrawal symptoms, I do find it irresponsible of MDs who don't disclose this, and even moreso those MDs who don't believe their patients when they say they are experiencing them. And, of course, if manufacturers still try to dismiss real people's experiences.
I did find out the hard way, too, like Camille--initially by experiencing what happened when I dealyed my short-acting Effexor even by an hour or so. But I told my pdoc and he listened. Then when I switched to XR, which was better than the short acting for this very reason--ie not so dependent on dosing at the exact precise minute, we discussed the need to be regular with the XR every day because of this, even if there was more leeway in terms of exact dosing time. I did have one really awful experience when I ran out of the med and therefore missed two days and it really drove the point home for me in a BIG way. I made sure to tell my pdoc about it at the next appointment, and he validated what I'd experience and we talked about strategies if I should run out of or forget my med again (in that case, by the time I filled the scrip it was well into the second day. I had begun to feel not so well by the night of the first day but not awful. Since I dose in the morning and have difficulty with sleeping from this med, I'd made the decision that it would be too late to take it the day I got the scrip filled, because of the potential of total interference with sleep, only I realized later on that night, and very much so into the next day or so that it would have been far better to just go sleepless than to experience the malaise of withdrawal).
BUT, as I said before, I don't see this as a need to call for the med to be withdrawn. Better education, yes. Fuller disclosure, yes. MDs who can help educate patients how to use this med for best outcome and who know how to help patients deal with SEs or withdrawal if they experience it. YES. But dumping the med and making unsubstantiated claims about the extent of damage? No, I cannot agree to that.
But I do understand the frustration and anger and need to vent. I just wish people would find a way to do that without too much sensation.
Posted by seeknsolace on April 30, 2004, at 20:26:28
In reply to Re: Does it ever end? When?, posted by howard laporte on April 30, 2004, at 17:16:18
Hey howard, thanks for taking time to post. It sucks going thru this but good to know that I'm having common withdrawl symptoms and thank you for the hope that it will get better.
I had begun thinking that some how effexor may have caused some permanent damage and this is now the quality of life I have, now I know it will pass. It's tough having pains and symptoms that you cant even explain to friends and family, but as I'm finding out in life, as much as you try to reach out to get support thru this, no one really gives a shit and no one understands except those who have suffered as well.
I don't agree with advocating cocaine as a means of coping, but then again, you do what you gotta do to survive, as long as it doesnt become a form/habit of life.
I was on the prozac for one week after effexor, it took the edge off and I felt good at times, like on speed.. adrenaline rush, everything felt sunshiney, but that ran out as it was to be used only short term, so been feeling like shit since but am able to function, faking the raging hell inside my body.
If I ever get to feeling better, hope I gain the ambition to lose this weight I've gained while being on it, but not beating myself up, because the number one priority is to be able to live and get thru this.
Thanks again!
> I have been off of this med since October of last year. I had a daily dosage of 300mg and tapered it down to 50mg a day for the last two weeks before finally going off of it completely. The side effects even on this low of a dosage were devastating to me.
> Yes, it took a long time for the effects to dissipate to where I could live with myself again (about 6 weeks). I had only been on the drug for a total of 6 months and it seemed to take forever for the brain zaps to go away. I have subsequently lost the weight and I have been off of all SSRI's since October. I have been through a little depression since then but nothing compared to the symptoms of which effexor put me through. During the withdrawals from effexor I was constantly nauseated, all my extremities hurt (like I had just been stretched on a rack!), but it was my head that hurt the most. It was hard to hold a thought long enough to act on it (except suicide).
> Loratab helped me quite a bit during the 1st week (I would take 1-2 a day), benadryl didn't do squat for me. Cocaine works wonders, but its effects (addiction) can be just as scary as those of effexor, and I really wonder if I should advocate its use here except to say that in moderation, it worked for me.
> It took a long time before I could even say to myself that I was feeling better. Effexor left my body very slowly and it seemed that just one day I woke-up and all was cool. There were many times that I almost started back on the drug just to forego the effects of withdrawal. I am glad to say that I finally won the battle against it and I feel healthier now than ever. I can still remember how it was on the drug and wouldn't recommend it to my worst enemy. I hope that this helps somewhat. This is the first post that I have put in here. I just found some documentation from this site in my desk draw and thought I would see if there were still people suffering from this shit out there.
Posted by TanyaJean on April 30, 2004, at 21:29:51
In reply to Re: TELL OPRAH YOU HATE EFFEXOR, posted by Sinnielou on April 30, 2004, at 15:19:02
Posted by TanyaJean on April 30, 2004, at 21:37:25
In reply to Re: Effexor works for me!! » TanyaJean, posted by noa on April 30, 2004, at 18:21:51
"*being seen for psychiatric care by general physicians (primary care docs) and not by psychiatrists with adequate psychopharm knowledge"That above is the most important piece of it, for me. I was put on this medication by an internal medicine doctor. I have Rheumatoid arthritis and the assumption was because I had all this pain, I was depressed too. I went a long with it. I truly think a psychiatrist would have been the person to put me on any anti-depressant. I'm more surprised that I'm having these symptoms. I've never had any reaction to any drug, anti depressant or not.
Posted by TanyaJean on April 30, 2004, at 21:44:02
In reply to Re: TELL OPRAH YOU HATE EFFEXORSinnielou, posted by Sinnielou on April 30, 2004, at 18:39:05
"> I knew what I was getting into before I started the Effexor. Every single question I had I wrote down and every symptom I had I wrote down as well and I tokk everything with me for my very first doctors appointment."That's great for you, that you had the forethought to do that. I would have never even thought to do that. My doctor at the time was so great about telling me the side effects of all other meds, I wasn't at all questioning the EFFEXOR. At the time, i was on PAXIL and told him my problems and he switched me to EFFEXOR, saying it would be a much better drug for me. I'm no drug dummy either, I've been on anti-depressants before. Paxil, Prozac, Imipramine, Celexa, Wellbutrin. I thought it was another line of anti-depressant. There was no way I would have guessed it would do what it did to me. I didn't take my notes to my doctor and ask every single question. I'm also not going to feel stupid and beat myself up for not doing so. I was one that went along with what the doctor said. Now I know better. I think we all do.
Posted by TanyaJean on April 30, 2004, at 21:49:44
In reply to Re: are these posts representative? » TanyaJean, posted by noa on April 30, 2004, at 18:49:22
"> But I do understand the frustration and anger and need to vent. I just wish people would find a way to do that without too much sensation."I'm not sure there's a way to get around the sensation. People are mad. I am. I think at first when I was so sick, I was all ready for this to be taken off the market. Now that I'm feeling better, I see the need for the doctor's to know better what they're giving out. Hopefully a regular physician isn't going to be handing these out. Is it just me, or has EFFEXOR risen in popularity over the past couple of years? I hadn't heard of it until I was prescribed it.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 30, 2004, at 22:06:20
In reply to Re: TELL OPRAH YOU HATE EFFEXORSinnielou, posted by maxziggy2002 on April 30, 2004, at 18:26:21
> Effexor and its maker are monsters.
>
> It seems to me that anyone who would spend their time reading and replying to these posts must have a vested interest in effexor, say by being an employee or investor in Wyeth, the drug manufacturer. Or maybe you work for one of the advertising agencies that makes a bundle peddling this crack on behalf of Wyeth. Or maybe you're a doctor who gets a kickback from Wyeth for prescribing it.Please don't exaggerate or overgeneralize or jump to conclusions about others.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Sinnielou on April 30, 2004, at 23:20:22
In reply to Re: please be civil » maxziggy2002, posted by Dr. Bob on April 30, 2004, at 22:06:20
> > Effexor and its maker are monsters.
> >
> > It seems to me that anyone who would spend their time reading and replying to these posts must have a vested interest in effexor, say by being an employee or investor in Wyeth, the drug manufacturer. Or maybe you work for one of the advertising agencies that makes a bundle peddling this crack on behalf of Wyeth. Or maybe you're a doctor who gets a kickback from Wyeth for prescribing it.
>
> Please don't exaggerate or overgeneralize or jump to conclusions about others.
>
> If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
>
> or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
>
> Thanks,
>
> BobI would like to apologise to Bob and to anyone else in this community if I have offended anyone. I would just like to say I wasn't trying to vent my anger towards anyone. I just found it very upsetting that someone could post a message about a drug that millions of people are on. When I read the very first post I was disturbed because I have found this community to be very informative and when i read it I thought to myself if I had just returned from my doctors office with a prescription for Effexor and or had just taken my very first dose how scared I would be after reading the posts. I believe we are all a part of this community to seek support or information in some way or another. Like I said what works for me doesn't mean it will work for others, but I also don't slander what doesn't work for my all I can do is share my experiences. Once again I apologise.
Posted by Raggy on April 30, 2004, at 23:53:29
In reply to Re: are these posts representative? » noa, posted by TanyaJean on April 30, 2004, at 21:49:44
I just read the other day that Effexor sales are up 31% this year.
They give it to women for hormone problems and and to people with arthritis as they feel these people are depressed over their illness. They give these antidepressants out like candy anymore.
Wyeth finally upped the warning last month to raise the age from 18 to adults that these antidepressants can cause more depression and make people suicial. I feel they knew this all this time and held it back. It took all those people going to Washington DC to finally get these drug companies to up this warning from 18 to adults. You can read about these people and the anit anit drpession crusade in the April 5th issue of People magazine.They all went and testified about loved ones that got more depressed and also suicidal and the ones who committed suicide, like my darling daughter in law. This warning came out 6 months after she died. So sad for all who have been on these durgs since the early 90's and for all these families who have lost ones. God Bless them for their dedication on getting these drug companies to admit this.
And it is just like the government, they tell us this BUT , What are they not telling us. Very scary.
Posted by TanyaJean on May 1, 2004, at 1:12:03
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by Sinnielou on April 30, 2004, at 23:20:22
"When I read the very first post I was disturbed because I have found this community to be very informative and when i read it I thought to myself if I had just returned from my doctors office with a prescription for Effexor and or had just taken my very first dose how scared I would be after reading the posts."
**I think a lot of people think "It won't happen to me." and would ignore the posts. I know I might have. I wish I had read something like this because I had no idea what this drug could do. To me anyway. I wish I had found this sooner. I know I keep writing on here, but it's providing a very good outlet. People for or against EFFEXOR are giving out a lot of useful information.
Posted by chemist on May 1, 2004, at 1:33:09
In reply to Re: please be civil » maxziggy2002, posted by Dr. Bob on April 30, 2004, at 22:06:20
> > Effexor and its maker are monsters.
> >
> > It seems to me that anyone who would spend their time reading and replying to these posts must have a vested interest in effexor, say by being an employee or investor in Wyeth, the drug manufacturer. Or maybe you work for one of the advertising agencies that makes a bundle peddling this crack on behalf of Wyeth. Or maybe you're a doctor who gets a kickback from Wyeth for prescribing it.
>
> Please don't exaggerate or overgeneralize or jump to conclusions about others.
>
> If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
>
> or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bobchemist here...i amon the same page as dr. bob...i have seen goog and not-so-good responses to effexor, in clinical settings. i do not work for wyeth. remember that individuals respond differently to medications, and there are many variables (hepatic dysfunction, renal clearance, drug interactions, herbal/drug interactions, etc, to name just a few). if it doesn't work for you, try another therapy. don't bad-mouth it on this board as the goal is to provide general information, not personal horror stories which in all likelihood will not be relevant to all genders, races, ages, and folks with other illnesses. not endorsing effexor, but throwing my opinion in the mix. many, many posters are on an extreme amount of (usually) redundant medications, and your ``problem'' with effexor might well be related to a drug-drug interation or a contraindication that a very detailed CBC might well show...all the best, chemist
Posted by TanyaJean on May 1, 2004, at 2:10:54
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by chemist on May 1, 2004, at 1:33:09
"don't bad-mouth it on this board as the goal is to provide general information, not personal horror stories which in all likelihood will not be relevant to all genders, races, ages, and folks with other illnesses."
OK, last post for me for a while. We're here because a forum was provided for us. I'm thankful for the "horror stories" because they do indeed give us much needed information, as do the "Non Horror Stories".
This may not seem relevent, but bear with me. I saw a story on the news that people who take heart medication be wary of drinking grapefruit juice WITH the heart medication as it could cause serious problems, even death. Of course not EVERYONE who drank grapefruit juice with heart medication would suffer consquences, but it was on the news all the same. Why do people have such a problem with EFFEXOR and anti depressant side effects being so well publicized?
It seems on this forum for people to talk about this very thing, the people sharing their stories are being talked down to. In many ways they're being told not to share what's happening. I may not be a chemist or doctor, but I know full well that what will happen to one person will not happen to everyone.
Posted by chemist on May 1, 2004, at 2:21:43
In reply to Re: please be civil » chemist, posted by TanyaJean on May 1, 2004, at 2:10:54
> "don't bad-mouth it on this board as the goal is to provide general information, not personal horror stories which in all likelihood will not be relevant to all genders, races, ages, and folks with other illnesses."
>
> OK, last post for me for a while. We're here because a forum was provided for us. I'm thankful for the "horror stories" because they do indeed give us much needed information, as do the "Non Horror Stories".
>
> This may not seem relevent, but bear with me. I saw a story on the news that people who take heart medication be wary of drinking grapefruit juice WITH the heart medication as it could cause serious problems, even death. Of course not EVERYONE who drank grapefruit juice with heart medication would suffer consquences, but it was on the news all the same. Why do people have such a problem with EFFEXOR and anti depressant side effects being so well publicized?
>
> It seems on this forum for people to talk about this very thing, the people sharing their stories are being talked down to. In many ways they're being told not to share what's happening. I may not be a chemist or doctor, but I know full well that what will happen to one person will not happen to everyone.
understood. the grapefruit thing is mainly limited to benzodiazepenes. a substance called bergamottin will decrease elimination of benzos via the CYP450 enzyme. it is both an inhibitor and inducer of CYP450. to the best of my knowledge, the bergamottin increase is most deleterious with bezos, but i stand corrected if you have peer-reviewed pubs indicating that heart medications - and there are numerous ones, as you know - interact with bergamottin and the CYP450 enzyme....all the best, chemist
Posted by noa on May 1, 2004, at 6:49:28
In reply to Re: are these posts representative? » noa, posted by TanyaJean on April 30, 2004, at 21:49:44
>Is it just me, or has EFFEXOR risen in popularity over the past couple of years?
I think yes.
Posted by noa on May 1, 2004, at 6:51:35
In reply to Re: are these posts representative? » noa, posted by TanyaJean on April 30, 2004, at 21:49:44
OOPS--Grammatically speaking, I realize that my "Yes" in my previous message is ambiguous! Sorry--I meant yes to its being more popular, not to "is it just me".
Posted by noa on May 1, 2004, at 6:56:16
In reply to Re: TELL OPRAH YOU HATE EFFEXORSinnielou, posted by maxziggy2002 on April 30, 2004, at 18:26:21
>It seems to me that anyone who would spend their time reading and replying to these posts must have a vested interest in effexor, say by being an employee or investor in Wyeth, the drug manufacturer. Or maybe you work for one of the advertising agencies that makes a bundle peddling this crack on behalf of Wyeth. Or maybe you're a doctor who gets a kickback from Wyeth for prescribing it.
I can assure you that this is not the case for me.
And, if we follow this logic, couldn't someone say that perhaps people who spend time writing very negative things about Effexor might have a vested interest in one of its competitors?
Posted by SLS on May 1, 2004, at 8:04:49
In reply to Re: are these posts representative? » noa, posted by TanyaJean on April 30, 2004, at 21:49:44
> Is it just me, or has EFFEXOR risen in popularity over the past couple of years? I hadn't heard of it until I was prescribed it.
I really don't know whether or not Effexor is being prescribed more often. It would not surprise me though. Like it or not, Effexor gets more people well than any of the SSRIs, and for those whom respond, promotes a greater degree of improvement. The chances of being brought into complete remission is significantly higher with Effexor than with Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, Luvox, Celexa, and Lexapro.
There are a bunch more.
These results are supported by a double-blind study of over 2000 patients conducted in 2001.
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/178/3/234
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 1, 2004, at 8:06:23
In reply to Re: please be civil » chemist, posted by TanyaJean on May 1, 2004, at 2:10:54
> Why do people have such a problem with EFFEXOR and anti depressant side effects being so well publicized?
I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding posting policies to Psycho-Babble Administration. My own response is at:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040307/msgs/342111.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 1, 2004, at 8:07:57
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by Sinnielou on April 30, 2004, at 23:20:22
Posted by seeknsolace on May 1, 2004, at 12:20:09
In reply to Does it ever end? When?, posted by seeknsolace on April 30, 2004, at 5:33:17
I read some stuff today about 5-htp, some woman decribed the ill effects of coming off effexor and how much 5-htp helped her thru the transition and with the depression in general. Still feeling like shit from effexor withdrawals, a little more tolerable today, I think in some ways I go mentally numb trying not to do too much, think too much, and also trying to disconnect from the hell ravaging my body, but in only is working slightly, in truth body still aches.. I wonder if this is what fibromyalgia or arthritis feels like, and still have the electric shocks, its very cool out today and my fingers hurt from the cold, mind you its in the 40s maybe 50s, not too extreme, just extra sensitive for whatever reason.
So anyways, gonna dive into the 5-htp tonite, 50 mgs.. will let ya know how it works, its key ingredient is tryptophan, sounds as bad as taking meth, not that I know, just tired of depending on drugs to dictate what my quality of life is going to be!
Posted by SLS on May 1, 2004, at 12:50:55
In reply to Re: Does it ever end? When?, posted by seeknsolace on May 1, 2004, at 12:20:09
> I read some stuff today about 5-htp, some woman decribed the ill effects of coming off effexor and how much 5-htp helped her thru the transition and with the depression in general.
> So anyways, gonna dive into the 5-htp tonite, 50 mgs.. will let ya know how it works,
Good luck. I hope things get better for you soon
:-)
- Scott
Posted by maxziggy2002 on May 1, 2004, at 13:01:21
In reply to Re: TELL OPRAH YOU HATE EFFEXORSinnielou » maxziggy2002, posted by noa on May 1, 2004, at 6:56:16
Yes I do have a vested interest in several of Effexors competitors: therapy, proper nutrition, and exercise.
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