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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 728 to 752 of 1313. Go back in thread:
Posted by annesand on April 26, 2004, at 7:11:39
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news » annesand, posted by SeeknSolace on April 25, 2004, at 7:02:40
Thanks, SeeknSolace. I came in to work feeling so sick and tired of all of this. It really helped to read your message.
Posted by KimberlyDi on April 26, 2004, at 12:44:53
In reply to Re: Effexor XR Story and my opinion 25 F mother of 1, posted by 4hope on April 23, 2004, at 16:13:04
> I am hoping in a few days the brain zaps will be gone completly and I can get back to my old self.
>
> It's been a rough journey but I am glad me and Effexor are parting ways and WILL NEVER be friends again!!!
>
> HopeBrain zaps take longer than a few days. But they won't disable you so much that you can't go on with your life. They finally fade away so much that you don't feel the desire to post your misery and confusion on this helpful web site. Thank you Dr. Bob for giving me this website to make it through my initial side effects, temporary success and withdrawals from Effexor. Darn my high bloodpressure because Effexor sure did me alot of good. Now that I'm off of it, I'm not sure I would always want the possibility of a missed dosage hanging over my head.
Good Luck!
KDi in TX
Posted by maxziggy2002 on April 28, 2004, at 20:38:42
In reply to Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by janey on November 1, 1998, at 16:30:34
To everyone out there who is suffering or has suffered from Effexor related hell: This drug and others like it will never be taken off the market until the mainstream media takes up the cause. So many of us are suffering in shame and silence. I believe that if enough people write to Oprah and suggest this as an idea for her show, they will make one. We need the media if we want this suffering to end, if we want our suffering to mean something, if we want the drug companies to stop peddling this crack! Contact Oprah and ask your friends and families to do so as well. Together, we can stop this monster!
Posted by Raggy on April 28, 2004, at 20:51:42
In reply to TELL OPRAH YOU HATE EFFEXOR, posted by maxziggy2002 on April 28, 2004, at 20:38:42
> To everyone out there who is suffering or has suffered from Effexor related hell: This drug and others like it will never be taken off the market until the mainstream media takes up the cause. So many of us are suffering in shame and silence. I believe that if enough people write to Oprah and suggest this as an idea for her show, they will make one. We need the media if we want this suffering to end, if we want our suffering to mean something, if we want the drug companies to stop peddling this crack! Contact Oprah and ask your friends and families to do so as well. Together, we can stop this monster!
They did have people talking about it on Montel Williams last week, and I posted an address where you can write the doctor that was on the show, do hope everyone does write him and tell him all these terrible things this drug does. The address is http://www.prozacbacklash.com/ , he wants to know about all these drugs, effexor, prozac, paxil, zoloft, etc.
Posted by seeknsolace on April 28, 2004, at 20:54:01
In reply to TELL OPRAH YOU HATE EFFEXOR, posted by maxziggy2002 on April 28, 2004, at 20:38:42
Yes effexor is a horrible drug to be on and to come off as so many others are as well, tho I dont know about others first hand. I'm still having the zaps.. been two weeks no effexor (I think) and one week no prozac. I feel like sh*t most of the time, could be a variable of things, including but not limited to effects of the withdrawls. I can say I will never go on effexor again, but I cant say I regret starting it. I was near suicide.. so depressed I managed to go to work every day and rest of the time was spent in bed, thinking about only dying.. how I could, when I will go thru it.... I cried constantly day and night.. simply put I was not able to enjoy any essence of life. I wouldnt have had to piece together some essence of life, if I never had the effexor to start with.. who knows, without it I might not be here now, being able to write this...
I was not informed of effexor going on it, maybe I would have refused it if I had known what I now know.. I'm not sure, but then maybe I was too desperate to care what the reprocussions are.
So, what I'm getting at.. maybe some people need effexor or whatever.. as I did and in truth, still do, but I'm off it, trying to make something better out of life, life now is worse without effexor.. thinking of taking up yoga/meditation, life is getting really hard as the days pass, so effexor might be the better (or only) alternative for those severely depressed.. when your essence of life is gone, we begin compromising things, if effexor gives people quality of life, even for a short time, its better then a life long struggle with deep dark depression where there is no release.
It would be better for people to be informed about this drug thoroughly, rather then removing any hopes of embracing life.
> To everyone out there who is suffering or has suffered from Effexor related hell: This drug and others like it will never be taken off the market until the mainstream media takes up the cause. So many of us are suffering in shame and silence. I believe that if enough people write to Oprah and suggest this as an idea for her show, they will make one. We need the media if we want this suffering to end, if we want our suffering to mean something, if we want the drug companies to stop peddling this crack! Contact Oprah and ask your friends and families to do so as well. Together, we can stop this monster!
Posted by TanyaJean on April 28, 2004, at 23:27:02
In reply to TELL OPRAH YOU HATE EFFEXOR, posted by maxziggy2002 on April 28, 2004, at 20:38:42
> To everyone out there who is suffering or has suffered from Effexor related hell: This drug and others like it will never be taken off the market until the mainstream media takes up the cause. So many of us are suffering in shame and silence. I believe that if enough people write to Oprah and suggest this as an idea for her show, they will make one. We need the media if we want this suffering to end, if we want our suffering to mean something, if we want the drug companies to stop peddling this crack! Contact Oprah and ask your friends and families to do so as well. Together, we can stop this monster!
*That's a great idea and I did email the Oprah show. I tell everyone I know how EFFEXOR has impacted me.
Posted by Bill LL on April 29, 2004, at 9:09:12
In reply to TELL OPRAH YOU HATE EFFEXOR, posted by maxziggy2002 on April 28, 2004, at 20:38:42
Many people are greatly helped by Effexor. This drug has immensely improved the quality of life for a large number of people. It has taken suicidal miserable people and turned them into happy productive people.
It's a shame that in some cases it causes side effects . Hopefully, scientists will eventually come up with antidepressanats that have less side effects.
Posted by PoohBear on April 29, 2004, at 10:28:05
In reply to TELL OPRAH YOU HATE EFFEXOR, posted by maxziggy2002 on April 28, 2004, at 20:38:42
> To everyone out there who is suffering or has suffered from Effexor related hell: This drug and others like it will never be taken off the market until the mainstream media takes up the cause. So many of us are suffering in shame and silence. I believe that if enough people write to Oprah and suggest this as an idea for her show, they will make one. We need the media if we want this suffering to end, if we want our suffering to mean something, if we want the drug companies to stop peddling this crack! Contact Oprah and ask your friends and families to do so as well. Together, we can stop this monster!
Effexor is NOT a monster... This kind of post is unbelieveably irresponsible.Many, MANY people are being helped by Effexor. Many might be dead without it, where other drugs have failed.
The posters here are a very small minority of the vast number who are being helped by this drug.
Tony
Posted by Camille Dumont on April 29, 2004, at 13:08:42
In reply to Re: TELL OPRAH YOU HATE EFFEXOR » maxziggy2002, posted by PoohBear on April 29, 2004, at 10:28:05
If this were to push for better information, I would jump in but trashing a medication because it doesn't work for you or some people have bad side effects is like saying that the forecast guy on tv is always wrong ... which is not true but you tend to remember teh times that he is wrong more than the 97% of the time when he is right.
Effexor needs more info on quitting side effects but its still a good medication ... its just not for everybody.
Without it, I would probably be 6 feet under right now.
Posted by psychosage on April 29, 2004, at 14:44:26
In reply to Re: TELL OPRAH YOU HATE EFFEXOR, posted by Camille Dumont on April 29, 2004, at 13:08:42
I think if you want to get Oprah to take up the cause and to have a show about antidepressants than you have to take into consideration that the manufacturer of Effexor advertises the med in O magazine.
What does this mean? I am not sure.
The heart of the matter lies in the drug claims and indications. Drug marketing needs to be overhauled. Since drugs have been advertised on TV there has been an upsurge in pharmaceuticals.
Drugs aren't medical treatments anymore. When I say I take wellbutrin Xl I am probably making more of a social statement about my emotional problems and my culturally recognized solution than the actual efficacy of that solution. It's like telling someone you are on antidepressants says more about your diagnosis than the fact anything good is happening from them.
I think there should be a new name for them, like flat out just call them mood chemicals. The name for them should be as vague as their mechanism of action because that is what they really mean.
The fact Zoloft is a more potent dopamine reuptake inhibitor than Wellbutrin tells me a lot about how the drug companies want us to believe the story about Zoloft more than the reality.
I think one main problem is when to stop taking the drugs. One can never tell if an AD should be maintained for preventative measures. I don't think all drugs are appropriate for maintenance therapy. Our brains adapt and change, so even at the same dosage a drug that initially was theraputic and life-saving even can start to cause negative effects.
Is there a single class of psych drug that is never taken for maintenance?
I think SSRIs are generally anesthetics. They blunt your emotions so you don't kill yourself after the initial improvement and feelings of well-being that have nothing to do with improvements in life circumstances. Even if they do make you feel better eventually the blunted effect will take over. Most of us have experienced it, right?
I don't have qualms about the chemicals themselves. I have issues with how they are marketed, prescribed and how I've been socially conditioned to believe they are really "antidepressants".
This is something that will take time to untangle because it will take collective experience over time to really figure out how we have to socially perceive the chemicals and how doctors and scientists figure out how to use them and generate claims about them that are more responsible.
i myself vacillate on whether or not antipsychotics are really worth the side effects to treat bipolar or if SSRIs are tolerable in low doses or for a short-term course. I feel Risperdal really helped save my life during a one-week self-admitted stay in a hospital psych ward, and Zoloft lifted me from the depths of my first major depressive episode at 19 years old. However, a subsequent 5-month course with Zyprexa ruined my life physically, emotionally and spiritually. After the initial month on my first AD ever, Zoloft, I was rather indifferent, hypomanic and compulsive. I think if I stayed on 50 mg for about two months and got off I would have been fine instead of being pumped up with 150mg a day.
Zyprexa helped me gain 35 pounds, and I developed neck and posture troubles that sent me into my first ever experience with physical rehabilitation for an entire summer at a center where the patients were 50 years older than I am. i wish I stayed on a minimal 2.5mg instead of the 10mg even though none of it changed a single symptom I had. Even though I was sedated physically, my mental anxiety became even worse since I was so concerned about my daily functioning.
Naturally, I am in the midst of attempting another antidepressant change.
Posted by annesand on April 29, 2004, at 15:03:25
In reply to Re: TELL OPRAH YOU HATE EFFEXOR, posted by Camille Dumont on April 29, 2004, at 13:08:42
Effexor probably saved my life six years ago too. But nobody told me about the long-term side effects, or how very difficult it would be to go off. Why did I only learn about this after the fact, from friends and from anecdotes on the Internet??!! I just think prescribers should give us the whole picture from the get-go so we can make educated choices.
Posted by noa on April 29, 2004, at 20:17:55
In reply to TELL OPRAH YOU HATE EFFEXOR, posted by maxziggy2002 on April 28, 2004, at 20:38:42
After a struggle to find an AD that would treat my refractory depression, Effexor came along and it worked. It is not perfect, and certainly isn't for everyone and the withdrawal problems need to be taken into account, but I certainly wouldn't advocate for it being taken off the market.
Posted by noa on April 29, 2004, at 20:35:02
In reply to Re: TELL OPRAH YOU HATE EFFEXOR » maxziggy2002, posted by PoohBear on April 29, 2004, at 10:28:05
Pooh Bear's point is well taken:
>The posters here are a very small minority of the vast number who are being helped by this drug.
I usually skip these threads. I have been stable on Effexor for a long time now. Not without some SE issues, so I know it's not perfect. But it is working for me, and because I don't have pressing issues or concerns about it, I don't post about Effexor except rarely, like now.
So, I would say that it is probable that these negative threads about Effexor, though perfectly valid and representing the true experiences of these posters, are not representative of all Effexor users. We don't know the numbers--those who have serious problems with it vs. those who don't. But my sense is that one has to be careful generalizing from these threads because there is intrinsically more reason for people having problems with the med to post about it.
It is a serious med with potentially serious SEs, yes. And has serious WD issues (I've experienced them myself) that I believe should be stated up front; and over time, as these become more evident, I hope the prescribing MDs are being more upfront about it. I don't see it as a "first line" strategy for most people, as I believe there are other options that are less complicated.
But it is not, as Pooh said, "a monster".
Posted by maxziggy2002 on April 29, 2004, at 21:50:03
In reply to Re: are these posts representative?, posted by noa on April 29, 2004, at 20:35:02
While I am sure that Effexor helps a large number of people, my concern is how it is being prescribed and marketed.
I was put on Effexor as a first attempt to improve my energy, mood, and concentration. Other alternatives, such as therapy, diet and lifestyle, were never addressed.
In addition, I was told that I might experience "flu-like" symptoms if I stopped taking them suddenly, which was the understatement of the century. It took me more than 4 months of agony to detox, which is 4 times as long as it takes to get off heroin.
These extremely powerful psychotropic drugs should not be put in the hands of untrained general practitioners. Furthermore, they should not be prescribed until other options have been exhausted. The potential for disaster is far too high. Doctors would never prescribe morphine at the first sign of pain. Yet they pump out these heavily marketed drugs on request.
If I can stop one person from going on this drug by posting here, I will.
Posted by TanyaJean on April 29, 2004, at 22:45:21
In reply to Re: TELL OPRAH YOU HATE EFFEXOR, posted by Camille Dumont on April 29, 2004, at 13:08:42
> If this were to push for better information, I would jump in but trashing a medication because it doesn't work for you or some people have bad side effects is like saying that the forecast guy on tv is always wrong ... which is not true but you tend to remember teh times that he is wrong more than the 97% of the time when he is right.
>
> Effexor needs more info on quitting side effects but its still a good medication ... its just not for everybody.
>
> Without it, I would probably be 6 feet under right now.**That's great that it works for you! However, it seems odd to me that 2 of my friends were on this medication and are having serious complications from trying to come off of it. Myself included. All three of us were on it for different reasons. It may work well while you're on it and you may very well be on it for life. But the problem is that our physicians are just handing this stuff out like candy. My doctor gave it to me because I have chronic pain. It may be too strong to say "TAKE THIS OFF THE MARKET", but people need a lot of education on what they're putting into their bodies and we're not getting that education. We're getting handed medication that doctors either don't know the serious side effects or they're not telling us, as patients. Coming off of this drug has been pure hell. I'm sure my doctor had no clue what I would experience when I eventually would have to come off of this. I'm very sure, however, the drug companies know full well.
Posted by TanyaJean on April 29, 2004, at 23:00:36
In reply to Re: Effexor works for me!!, posted by noa on April 29, 2004, at 20:17:55
> After a struggle to find an AD that would treat my refractory depression, Effexor came along and it worked. It is not perfect, and certainly isn't for everyone and the withdrawal problems need to be taken into account, but I certainly wouldn't advocate for it being taken off the market.
**I said in a previous post that advocating EFFEXOR being taken off the market probably isn't fair as all of us don't have the same reactions. If it works for you, that's very good. However, I don't agree, as I'm sure no one does, with doctor's handing out anti-depressants as candy and not really knowing the side effects and effects while trying to come off this medication. I doubt my doctor had any idea that four weeks after totally being off EFFEXOR, I would still be sick to my stomach most days. We really need education on what we're putting into our bodies and we're not getting it. We have to resort to educating ourselves and that can be a very challenging process. A lot of us haven't gone to school to learn specifically about meds and aren't scientists that create these drugs. I'm sure the drug companies know full well what can happen. People need to know. I was on a tricylic anti-depressant about 10 years ago. I weaned off of it and NEVER had problems. 4, going on 5 weeks now, I'm still very ill. Effexor never changed a thing for me aside from being very negative. My physicians still very much wanted me to be on them.
Posted by TanyaJean on April 29, 2004, at 23:09:50
In reply to Re: are these posts representative?, posted by noa on April 29, 2004, at 20:35:02
"So, I would say that it is probable that these negative threads about Effexor, though perfectly valid and representing the true experiences of these posters, are not representative of all Effexor user."
**That's true. Although it's interesting to me that 2 of my friends who went on EFFEXOR for completely different reasons than myself are still very very ill after being off EFFEXOR for 2-3 weeks. I've been off totally going on 5 weeks now and am still very ill. Yes, EFFEXOR works for people. But the problem is we're NOT BEING EDUCATED by our physicians. I don't even think our doctor's know what the side effects are or what can happen when eventually we'll need to come off this drug. There are some people that will have to be on this drug for life. I think that's a small percentage. But for the rest of us who have to wean off and then stop taking it, it's hell. I'm sure the drug company knows full well the side effects. We're left with educating ourselves and that is a very tricky process. We should all know what we're putting into our bodies and when the doctor strongly urges us to be on an anti depressant, we're not conditioned to ask why. NOW I would ask why. NOW I would ask questions. I wish I would have before. As ill as I am now, I wonder what in the world has happened to my body. What damage have I caused that will not go away? If I do a search on EFFEXOR, I find a ton of information like this. People having very negative side effects from this drug. It's something that can't be ignored.
Posted by seeknsolace on April 30, 2004, at 5:33:17
In reply to Re: are these posts representative? » noa, posted by TanyaJean on April 29, 2004, at 23:09:50
Again, its been like 2 weeks off effexor, prozac for one week to help with withdrawals.. now been off prozac one week, flying solo.
The symptoms I'm having: entired damn body hurts, head, feet, arms, hands, some cramping like sensation as during menses (maybe anxiety), eyes hurt, tension in the neck, pain in the head resembling a sinus migraine, body feels sorta numb, tingling, yet hurts, very sensitive to cold.. hurts my fingers, when its hot, dont feel your typical overheated symptoms such as summer time.. body just feels somewhat swollen and get nauseaus. I'm sure gaining 20 pds while on the shit doesnt help the matter, but still overeating to find comfort and to distract myself from how I feel.
Anyone else experienced this????? When does it end? or does it????????
Posted by roomy on April 30, 2004, at 7:40:35
In reply to Does it ever end? When?, posted by seeknsolace on April 30, 2004, at 5:33:17
> Again, its been like 2 weeks off effexor, prozac for one week to help with withdrawals.. now been off prozac one week, flying solo.
>
> The symptoms I'm having: entired damn body hurts, head, feet, arms, hands, some cramping like sensation as during menses (maybe anxiety), eyes hurt, tension in the neck, pain in the head resembling a sinus migraine, body feels sorta numb, tingling, yet hurts, very sensitive to cold.. hurts my fingers, when its hot, dont feel your typical overheated symptoms such as summer time.. body just feels somewhat swollen and get nauseaus. I'm sure gaining 20 pds while on the shit doesnt help the matter, but still overeating to find comfort and to distract myself from how I feel.
>
> Anyone else experienced this????? When does it end? or does it????????
Yep! It will end. I am finally coming around and have been off it for 4months. I actually enjoy doing some of the things I used to do. I have gotten out and gotten a second job, I am out working in the yard and getting my garden ready to plant and I got my oil paints out again. I had no desire to do these things before. I am becoming me again. Hang in there. It will get better. (I even lost 14lbs of the Effexor weight)
I read the posts here about people defending the drug and it kinda bothers me. The drug does possibly work for some. Heck I thought it was great too ...AT FIRST!! After the increased dose time and time again and 6 years later...not so great. Besides, I dont think anyone posting here is condemning anyone else ON Effexor, we were there, remember?! Its more of a board to post to or VENT to, if you will. It helped me get thru the insanity of the withdrawl and I hope my posts will help others the same way. Its why I still hang out now and again to take a peek at how folks are doing.
Posted by Camille Dumont on April 30, 2004, at 7:57:46
In reply to Re: are these posts representative? » noa, posted by TanyaJean on April 29, 2004, at 23:09:50
Although its sad for you and your friends, 3 ppl is very very far from a statistically significant sample of people and can in no way be representative of the general effexor-using population ... not to mention that there is probably a "selection bias" in that people who are experiencing trouble with it are more likely to search on teh net for it ... and hence, there is probably an overepresentation of "bad effexor experiences" on psychobabble.
I do however agree on teh education thing. I only found out about the withdrawal the hard way on a weekend when I forgot my meds. Companies should definately be more prudent and give more information on what happends when you stop taking their product.
Posted by Camille Dumont on April 30, 2004, at 7:59:13
In reply to Does it ever end? When?, posted by seeknsolace on April 30, 2004, at 5:33:17
Did you stop cold turkey? You have to diminish the dose VERY VERY slowly, otherwise, you will feel very bad for very long. You have to give your system time to get used to not having the drug in you.
Posted by SLS on April 30, 2004, at 8:06:58
In reply to Re: are these posts representative? » noa, posted by TanyaJean on April 29, 2004, at 23:09:50
Hi.
> People need to know. I was on a tricylic anti-depressant about 10 years ago. I weaned off of it and NEVER had problems. 4, going on 5 weeks now, I'm still very ill.
If you have already been asked this question, I apologize. What exactly are the symptoms you are experiencing? I think I might want to look into this further. Personally, I've been on and off Effexor of several times. I weaned myself from it gradually, using only fractions of a capsule at a time. I can get off of 300mg within in two weeks this way, and without much discomfort at all. Of course, everyone is different. The persistence of Effexor-induced adverse effects beyond two weeks of the last dose seems bizarre to me. Obviously, it does happen, but this phenomenon is very foreign to me because I've never seen it for myself. I'd like to know more about it.Because so many people I know personally have benefited from Effexor, and rely on it to lead a normal life, I would be extremely upset to see it withdrawn from the market. I don't know. I don't fully understand the motives of people who are so emoted to rip away from people a drug like Effexor without consideration of how it benefits so many others, and often without adverse effects. OK, someone has been assaulted and punched in the gut by Effexor. Now they want to punch something in return? It seems very selfish to me. That's just how I feel.
> People need to know.
Definitely. There should be full disclosure to the patient what are the risks versus benefits of taking any drug. Obviously, this is not happening.
- Scott
Posted by annesand on April 30, 2004, at 8:37:14
In reply to Re: are these posts representative?, posted by Camille Dumont on April 30, 2004, at 7:57:46
I feel sort of patronized by the drs. Like they don't trust me enough to give me full info. Like a depressed person can't be trusted with all of the facts. Maybe they think that if they tell me about the possible side effects, I'll have them, and if they don't tell me, I won't. Because it's all in my head anyway. Sorry, I'm just a little bitter that I had to suffer and blame myself for so long before realizing the meds were causing many of my problems. And that I only found that out from places like this, not my dr.
Posted by worm on April 30, 2004, at 11:31:48
In reply to Re: are these posts representative?, posted by Camille Dumont on April 30, 2004, at 7:57:46
> Although its sad for you and your friends, 3 ppl is very very far from a statistically significant sample of people and can in no way be representative of the general effexor-using population ... not to mention that there is probably a "selection bias" in that people who are experiencing trouble with it are more likely to search on teh net for it ... and hence, there is probably an overepresentation of "bad effexor experiences" on psychobabble.
>I agree, and would add that some of the symptoms are vague - "flu-like" muscle pains, etc. I have to admit that when I first started reading these posts, I said "I have that . . . and that too" not all can really be explained by Effexor, and some are suggestible - "Oh yeah, I had muscle aches yesterday", etc. The brain zings are REAL, however, and it is the best thing that has happened to me to read these posts and to realize I am not alone and I am not having some sort of seizure ! There is a reason for the things that have been happening to me, at least some of them, that is logical.
I have been off for about 6 weeks now, no ill effects, no weakness, no brain zings, and I feel that I am thinking more clearly - not as hopeless, or helpless, sitting here thinking of "offing" myself, like I was before. Some of that may have to do with Springtime, but I'm taking advantage of the weather to try to get "clean" of all AD medications. It may happen that, come November, I may be on one or another yet again . . time will tell. For now, I am going to enjoy being out in the sunshine once again . . .
Maggie
Posted by TanyaJean on April 30, 2004, at 13:55:36
In reply to Does it ever end? When?, posted by seeknsolace on April 30, 2004, at 5:33:17
> Again, its been like 2 weeks off effexor, prozac for one week to help with withdrawals.. now been off prozac one week, flying solo.
>
> The symptoms I'm having: entired damn body hurts, head, feet, arms, hands, some cramping like sensation as during menses (maybe anxiety), eyes hurt, tension in the neck, pain in the head resembling a sinus migraine, body feels sorta numb, tingling, yet hurts, very sensitive to cold.. hurts my fingers, when its hot, dont feel your typical overheated symptoms such as summer time.. body just feels somewhat swollen and get nauseaus. I'm sure gaining 20 pds while on the shit doesnt help the matter, but still overeating to find comfort and to distract myself from how I feel.
>
> Anyone else experienced this????? When does it end? or does it????????I have no idea!! I wish I knew. 5 weeks of me totally being off Effexor and just when I thought I was better, I spent most of last night being sick and convulsing. No herbal thing has worked for me either.
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