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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 58. Go back in thread:
Posted by shadows721 on February 11, 2004, at 14:56:07
In reply to Re: I'll testify against you, posted by sjb on February 11, 2004, at 13:22:16
I am not a chemist, but it appears to me that Effexor needs a longer half life. It dumps out the system too fast and that is responsible for these cripling withdrawal effects. That's why Prozac is helpful. Prozac's half life is several days. They don't need a withdrawal med. They need to extend the half life of the med. It seems this drug is giving the brain a rush of 190 proof like power and then drops to zero in a few hours. The result is like a decent into Hell.
Personally, I wouldn't dare put myself into that fix. It's not about having a strong will power. It's about chemistry. I would definately use Prozac to help. A doctor friend of mine switched to Lexapro. He didn't have the Hellish withdrawal either.
Posted by Althea8869 on February 11, 2004, at 16:35:17
In reply to Re: ^5!!! Ditto, posted by justjustine on February 11, 2004, at 14:50:28
You know its interesting - I was just thinking that in a broad sense we are the generation that is doing the clinical testing for the next. With the staggering increase in knowledge about brain chemistry in just the last few years, and the greater acceptance of depression as a disease, it is believed that the next generation will have taylor made solutions. Get an MRI, few blood tests and they'll know exactly what the problem is and exactly what med(s) to give you. If you look back in time just a few decades, the number of options for treatment decreases exponentially. Not that im happy being anyones test subject, but if I knew that my child was going to suffer from depression at some point in his life, than I think the difficluties that I have had trying these different meds is, by comparison, acceptable.
With regard to the drug companies, it's the CEO's and the salesmen that I dont trust, I have a great deal of respect and appreciation for the R&D folks, who are not getting paid very much, even in the private sector, and still manage to find increasingly sophisticated and novel ways to help, and in some cases cure, serious diseases. Last night I was reading some abstracts from some Pharm study site, and one abstract was about a novel new antidepressant, now in stage one trials(so it has no name), that is proving as efficacious, if not more so, than anything currently available. The intrigueing part though, is that it has absolutely no appreciable effect on any of the neurochemicals that people associate with depression. Many people forget, or just dont realize, that our knowledege of the brain, especially as it pertains to mood/behaviour is still in its infancy - despite the incredible pace over the last few years.Anyway, had a few free minutes so I though id post. Take care.
Posted by KimberlyDi on February 11, 2004, at 16:58:21
In reply to Re: I'll testify against you, posted by sjb on February 11, 2004, at 13:22:16
I quit ONLY because it raised my blood pressure too high (and I was a person with unusually low BP). Plus, it was alittle pricey.
That's all.
KDi in TX> "dont you find it interesting how many people are complaining about the withdrawls - means a lo of folks are taking it...and I dont think its just because PD's are pushing it any more -"
>
> Well, yeah, but if it was so great and/or didn't poop out, why are lots of folk going off of it, hence the withdrawals???
>
> Effexor was one of the best meds for me but it pooped out and coming off of it is not a walk in the park. What has it done to us, that makes the withdrawal so unpleasant???
Posted by sjb on February 12, 2004, at 6:56:59
In reply to Re: I'll testify against you, posted by KimberlyDi on February 11, 2004, at 16:58:21
I do not think an increase in BP is the primary reason for stopping Effexor. For sure, BP should be monitored, esp. while on this drug, as an increase is not an uncommon response. MY BP did not change much, and I too, tend to be on the low side. I'm also an athlete.
I think we have to be careful here to draw sweeping conclusions, one way or the other, based on our own, unique personal experience. What we do know, as a common problem for many people, is that withdrawal is more severe with this drug than with many others, and I reiterate, we know this because a LOT of people are getting off of it.
Posted by Emme on February 12, 2004, at 8:42:01
In reply to Re: I'll testify against you, posted by sjb on February 12, 2004, at 6:56:59
> I do not think an increase in BP is the primary reason for stopping Effexor.
Sounds like a good enough reason to me if it's raised too much. Kimberly said hers was raised a lot.
> I think we have to be careful here to draw sweeping conclusions, one way or the other, based on our own, unique personal experience.
It didn't sound to me like Kimberly was doing that. She just said why *she* quit.
Emme
Posted by flyingdreams on February 12, 2004, at 11:54:38
In reply to effexor lawsuit, posted by Maxine on February 7, 2001, at 16:29:24
Here's a start, sign the petition:
http://www.petitiononline.com/effexor/petition.html
Second email the media:
Posted by KimberlyDi on February 12, 2004, at 15:14:36
In reply to Re: I'll testify against you » sjb, posted by Emme on February 12, 2004, at 8:42:01
I was about to get midevil on that last poster. I know why I stopped Effexor. Not willingly! It was a great AD for me even though yes, the withdrawal is terrible.
KDi in TX
> > I do not think an increase in BP is the primary reason for stopping Effexor.
>
> Sounds like a good enough reason to me if it's raised too much. Kimberly said hers was raised a lot.
>
> > I think we have to be careful here to draw sweeping conclusions, one way or the other, based on our own, unique personal experience.
>
> It didn't sound to me like Kimberly was doing that. She just said why *she* quit.
>
> Emme
>
>
Posted by Althea8869 on February 12, 2004, at 16:38:31
In reply to Re: effexor lawsuit - petition to sign first, posted by flyingdreams on February 12, 2004, at 11:54:38
Ok - I have read the petition and just want to comment on it briefly. I agree with about 95% of it.
Here is where I see some trouble.
"...and that Wyeth-Ayerst knew of these risks but failed to communicate those risks to the consumer and their physicians." --- Given that independent medical organizations did many of the trials during the initial testing for FDA approval and forwarded those results directly to the FDA or regional governing body for dissemination, Wyeth would not have been in much of a position to cover them up. SSRI discontinuation problems have been known about since long before this drug was approved. Yet the FDA never required specific documents regarding study of this. I looked today at their boiler plate, and they still dont seem to.Here's the other problem:
"we have found that the disclosure regarding the side effects and efficacy of Effexor that we were given and which is still being propagated, is significantly misleading to the consumer." This talks about side effects and efficacy, not discontinuation. I dont think it would be wise to attack Wyeth on an efficacy front- Here's an abstract from PubMed:
"Remission rates during treatment with venlafaxine or selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors.....Remission rates were: venlafaxine, 45% (382/851); SSRIs, 35% (260/748)....CONCLUSIONS: Remission rates were significantly higher with venlafaxine than with an SSRI." This was just one of many results showing it superior to SSRI's and in some cases TCA's.
The other thing is that in terms of "side-effects" which means individual responses seen during use of the drug which are directly attributable to the drug, Effexor's side effects are no worse, and in many cases better, than any of the other SSRI's.Here's what i'm driving at - the petition needs to be re-written to account for some statements that simply dont bear out. If the petition were about the severity of discontinuation symptoms and the neeed for the FDA to begin studying this and requiring drug companies to submit discontinuation trial results, than I'd actually sign it - especially given how bad mine were.
Posted by ivamcgoo on February 12, 2004, at 17:03:57
In reply to Re: effexor lawsuit - petition to sign first, posted by flyingdreams on February 12, 2004, at 11:54:38
THANK YOU for the petition and dateline's email address ...
Posted by noa on February 12, 2004, at 19:13:46
In reply to Re: I'll testify against you, posted by Angielala on January 15, 2004, at 14:54:07
>You are the first person I have heard anything good about this drug.
I know that there are a lot of problems with Effexor, BUT, perhaps the reason you hear more bad than good is that people posting here on this topic are frustrated and angry and more motivated to post about it.
I see effexor for what it is. On the one hand the medication that finally broke through my depressive symptoms after a long haul of searching. ON the other hand, it has its limitations--I don't tolerate the SEs at higher doses, so it is most effective for me in combination with other meds, and there are still some SEs I'd rather do without. And I know that there are withdrawal challenges should I decide to go off of it.
But it is a key component of a cocktail that is working for me, that has allowed me to be in remission from a very bad chronic depression. I consider this my "holding pattern" until something new and better comes along--until the science comes up with a new treatment with a new mechanism of action. It may be a while, and that's ok.
I agree that more truth about the realities of this medication are in order. And perhaps it should only be prescribed by doctors with special training in psychopharm, rather than by family doctors. I certainly wouldn't want it to be prescribed as a first line trial treatment because it is a powerful medication with "issues".
But there are people like me out there who have and continue to benefit from this medication. I myself don't have the energy to post frequently about its positives, and I suspecct this is true of others who feel the med has benefits, so you might get more of the negative slant on things here.
JMHO : )
Posted by cupcake on February 12, 2004, at 23:24:57
In reply to Re: I'll testify against you, posted by noa on February 12, 2004, at 19:13:46
behold the power of the blog!
i just wanted to add my two cents to the conversation. i'm currently embarking upon the lovely journey of Effexor withdrawal myself--veeeeery slowly. in my online searches for help and info on the withdrawal process, i've found many discussions and comments like the ones in this thread, but little in the way of resources and "sturdy" information. i saw the petition mentioned earlier, but i agree with some of the others that a lawsuit might not be the best way to go.
personally, i would love to just be able to find out more *good,* helpful information about how to get through the withdrawal process OK (w/o having to go on prozac--i'm on effexor in the first place b/c prozac and other ssri's made me very anxious among other things). and i want doctors, therapists, pdocs, and prospective takers of the drug to have a lot more knowledge and awareness of the side effects and withdrawal effects associated with it. i decided to put up a blog documenting my withdrawal process in the hopes that i could also encourage readers to comment on their own experiences (through the little comment function link at the end of each blog entry) and what helped them get through it.
also, by having one place to put links to helpful info, research, and generally all things effexor withdrawal-related (including people's anecdotes and stories, both horrific and not-so-horrific), my bigger goal is to amass a cohesive body of information and anecdotal evidence that somebody might one day be able to use as the basis forproposing/funding a really in-depth independent study of what exactly causes effexor withdrawal, traditional and alternative methods for lessening its effects, and maybe how to identify--through lab tests or medical history and/or some type of clinical assessment instrument or whatever--who would NOT be a good candidate for this type of drug.
from my own experiences (on prozac, paxil, serzone, wellbutrin, gabitril, and finally effexor), i know that prescribing AD's seems to be such an unexact hit or miss and there just HAS to be a way to get around all the pain and suffering (yeah, i know, the violins in the background) we've all experienced from just being on the wrong drug!
that said, like others have already mentioned, effexor has been truly helpful for some people. myself included, at the beginning.
for the record, i've been on effexor 1.5 years and was at 300 mg/day when i decided to try getting off (last week). i've been holding steady-ish at 150 mg/day for the past several days but feel like crap the closer i get to dose time every day. more info on the blog, of course, at:
http://brainzaps.tblog.com
Brainzaps: A Journal of Effexor Withdrawalplease feel free to post comments about your own experiences there if you feel so inclined.
Posted by noa on February 13, 2004, at 8:24:32
In reply to constructive action re: Effexor w/o lawyers!..., posted by cupcake on February 12, 2004, at 23:24:57
C-
I wish you luck. One thought, though. If you just started lowering the dose from 300 last week and are already at 150, to me that doesn't seem slow at all.
I think other people have had better luck going much slower than that and have been fine through much of the tapering, until, that is, they get to the final jump of going from 37.5 to nothing.
But if you've gone down 150 mg in just a week, thta seems rather fast to me and I am not surprised that you're having WD symptoms at this point.
Posted by sjb on February 13, 2004, at 9:51:32
In reply to Re: I'll testify against you » sjb, posted by Emme on February 12, 2004, at 8:42:01
I didn't word that right. Of course, if your BP goes up a lot due to Effexor, you should stop. I just think most folks go off due to other reasons.
Posted by leo33 on February 15, 2004, at 0:20:34
In reply to Re: I'll testify against you, posted by sjb on February 13, 2004, at 9:51:32
I think the drug companies should pay for the pain and suffering caused by their drugs, especially for lying and withholding information from the public about the drugs possible negative effects. I think law suits are in order and the solution for their unethical practices. They understand the language of money and nothing else.
Posted by BJlass on February 15, 2004, at 16:18:42
In reply to Re: effexor lawsuit, posted by gwen on February 8, 2001, at 19:57:43
The whole point is this: WE WERE NOT TOLD OF THE WITHDRAWAL EFFECTS OF EFFEXOR.
plain and simple.
Disclosure is legally required, I would think, in all drugs.
And for someone to say she'll testify against people who are hurting, what is wrong with a person like that?
Posted by BJlass on February 15, 2004, at 16:21:06
In reply to Re: effexor lawsuit, posted by Shell on February 8, 2001, at 23:20:54
I, for one, doesn't care about having "fans!" We care about our health and being fully INFORMED of the effects of drugs.
And WHAT is wrong with that?
Posted by BJlass on February 15, 2004, at 16:23:58
In reply to Re: I'll testify against you, posted by PoohBear on January 16, 2004, at 12:02:12
How would you know who is posting and who is not? Yea, I thought I was "being helped" by Effexor too!
Being put on something that is ADDICTIVE is not being "helped!"
Posted by BJlass on February 15, 2004, at 16:27:50
In reply to Re: I'll testify against you, posted by Angielala on January 15, 2004, at 14:54:07
Getting a drug off the market IF it is dangerous is certainly a good thing.
Also, forcing drug mfr's and doctors to give FULL disclosure is also a good thing if the drug were kept on the market.
Consumers have a right to know what they're doing to their brains. Hiding one's head in the sand is NOT the answer! I am so glad for this board and hearing from all these other people who also were hurt by Effexor. Thanks for your postings!
Posted by Althea8869 on February 15, 2004, at 17:23:13
In reply to I'll testify for you, posted by leo33 on February 15, 2004, at 0:20:34
leo33, couple things - i respect your opinion on these issues, and share some of them, but disagree on your post for the following reason(s):
Lets say you sued and won against wyeth, in that case, you would get a large payout(although it would be reduced on appeal-and wouldnt affect wyeth's cash flow anyway) and you still wouldnt feel any better. So you would begin the process of trying to find a new drug to help. But now theres a problem. Because of the lawsuit, all the major pharm's are increasing their insurance coverage which is going to cost them money, how do they cover that money? You guessed it drug prices go up. What else happens, your emplyers insurance plan will be charged more as well, so to retain their margins they will pass of the increased premiums to the workers in the form of higher deductions and probably fewer options for coverage. So you get doubly taxed. In the mean time, the pharm has still laid out $0.
Ok, so far so bad. But there's more: as a result of the lawsuit and the ones that follow, all prescription drugs prices will rise and your co-pay will rise too - everything from aspirin to cold syrup will all follow suit to reflect a higher pricing equilibrium on pharm products.
But none of this is the worst part. The worst part is the effect on the R&D pipeline. Drug development that might otherwise have continued will slow due to concerns over side effects that we are simply not at a stage that we can control them - certainly not on a person by person basis. At that point the board of directors of your pharm company has decided that due to the increasing liabilities involved, they will place far greater resrictions on which development projects to continue, in some cases companies will decide that it doesnt make sense to continue developing these medications - let the smaller labs do it. Only problem is the smaller labs dont have the $$ to afford the high tech equipment needed to due this development, so they borrow big from the bank and pass on the interest payments to you - the consumer - in the form of , you guessed it, higher drug costs on products developed in inferior labs.
So, you may ask, how does all this end....you go to your doc and ask him to prescribe something new to help you and he replies that, for insurance reasons, he cant prescribe 95% of the medications that are available to help you as a result of their possible side effects. He tells you to go to CVS and take some aspirin and cross your fingers. Thats the cycle that would take place more or less.THE SOLUTION is not going after the pharms, but to force a change in the clinical testing and reporting guidelines that the FDA uses, increase non-party oversight, and remove, almost completely, the developer from the trials process. They can conduct studies if they wish, but reports on efficacy and all other pertinent info will come entirely from state or private testing facilities, who will report only to the FDA.
Its either that or aspirin.
Posted by PixieEm on February 15, 2004, at 22:24:04
In reply to Re: I'll testify against you, posted by BJlass on February 15, 2004, at 16:27:50
Hey guys, I am having some serious problems right now. I could really use some help, if anyone can... I was originally put on A/D for a totally different reason... I have endometriosis and my OBGyn prescribed Lexapro for pain reduction. I later went to a GP and he told me that he thought Effexor XR would be a much better choice for me considering my history of sleep problems, migraines, drug sensitivity, and supposed fibromyalgia. WRONG!!! Yes, when I first started taking the Effexor it was not too bad as long as I took it everyday at the same time, but if I am a few hours late I started getting nausea, dizziness, sleeplessness, brain shivers, etc. I now know about the withdrawals, (through posts such as this), and I am scared to death to quit taking it. The 300mg effexor did nothing for the pain that it was prescribed for, and now I am just as tired when taking it as I was before I started. My relationship is really suffering from my lack of emotions and my nonexistant sex drive. I WANT TO GET OFF IT!!! What do I do? I have tried cold turkey and had such bad "brain shivers" that I could not leave my house. Driving was impossible. With much hardship I have managed to get down to 150 mg now, but that has taken 2 months. I am a student in my last semester of my senior year of college. I can't miss class. Funny enough, I am also a psychology major. Never heard anything about bad about effexor from my doctors. Wish I had known about this. I would have never taken it. I know it has helped some people, and I am happy for ya'll, but this is miserable for me. If anyone knows anything that will help relieve this pain, please let me know.
Last thing... I have thought about a malpractice lawsuit. I have no idea if I would even have a case. I just don't think that the doctor should have prescribed me a med without telling me about it. But at the same time, I don't know if it would be the doctor's fault, or the drug company's fault. All I know is that I feel like I have been wronged. I would like to be able to make informed decisions regarding any substance entering my body. Thanks!!!!~Emily
Posted by leo33 on February 15, 2004, at 22:57:06
In reply to Take two and call me in the morning..., posted by Althea8869 on February 15, 2004, at 17:23:13
Althea that is the exact crap about the system that I'm talking about. Your gonna get the screws put to ya either way. If thats the case, I would want the business accountable for the product they put out. As far as R&D is concerned, they put more money into marketing their drugs than R&D. If their main issue was pure in trying to just help people get well, then that would not be the case. As far as lawsuits are concerned, I've grown to learn that that is now a check and balance in the system. It allows the quote, unquote people a chance to have a voice. We all know the money would go to the lawyers anyway. But, I guess yours is a more perfect world than mine.
Posted by KimberlyDi on February 16, 2004, at 10:45:26
In reply to Take two and call me in the morning..., posted by Althea8869 on February 15, 2004, at 17:23:13
Excellent point.
And a different angle...
Chemo therapy to remove cancer. All those cancer patients who suffer terribly when they take it. And there's no 100% success rate. Are they up in arms over that? Or do they understand that it's sometimes the best choice of limited options?
There's no cure for depression. It's hit or miss. Effexor helped me for a few amazing months. Enough to help me climb out of some mentally-imposed pit that I had been trapped in for years. When I had to quit Effexor because of high blood pressure, I wasn't thrilled. I definately didn't like the withdrawal. I didn't like that my pdoc had no clue about the withdrawal effects and how to handle them. But I learned by myself. And I'm off of Effexor.
And yes, I had my first time real suicide attempt when I took my first inexperienced jump from 300mg to 150mg to 75mg in only a week. That's a major concern to me.
Yes, Wyeth should educate doctors about the dangers of withdrawaling too quickly. But should Effexor be taken off the market? H*LL NO. I'm still free from that mentally-imposed pit even now that I'm off Effexor. It jump-started my life. I still battle with depression, but I'm on a much more stable foundation now.
Do I want lawyers to get rich off the money I spent for Effexor? Nope. Do I want my insurance rates to go up because of rising medicine costs because of lawsuits? Nope. Do I want to be classified as the same as the Squeaky Wheel who gets the attention? Another H*LL NO, I'm worlds different from those whose response to everything is to sue.
KDi in TX
Posted by Althea8869 on February 16, 2004, at 11:22:45
In reply to Re: Take two and call me in the morning..., posted by leo33 on February 15, 2004, at 22:57:06
Leo33 - unfortunately your pretty much right on the money about getting the short end either way. But, and I believe this without question, maintaining the R&D pipeline and optimizing the time to market, while maintaining greater vigiliance in the trials process and further separation of the manufacturer from any of the product literature is what needs to happen. "Pure" biotech companies spend FAR more money on R&D than on S/M, this is not as true in commodotized pharmaceuticals - but you also have to adjust data for the fact that sales staff will usually draw a far higher salary than your scientists. As an analyst one of the first ratios you look at is R&D spending to net adjusted sales when analyzing 'specialty' firms. In some firms that can go up to 80% or more - because they live and die by the new product and because of the complexities of developing/manufacturing that product- commodity manufacturers are the polar opposite - they couldnt care less about the new product, they are only interested in finding better/cheaper ways to produce drugs that already exist. They piggy back, causing much lower product margins, but stable sales. I've worked as a polymer chemist and now, though out of work, as an analyst. The other thing that would be immensely helpful to our cause is to have the government better subsidize the smaller 'heavy' private r&d firms - their contributions can be immense, but all too often they fold because they cant pay the loan that they took to pay the loan(s) they took to finance their development.
Bottom line, its the research folk we should be finding some way to help - not the lawyers.
And no, my world is not a perfect one, in the last year I lost my job, my fiance ended our engagement and my brother died - and most days im living in a fog so dark that I cant see to the end of my nose.Our salvation lies in the labs and in the classrooms, not in a courtroom.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 16, 2004, at 17:48:15
In reply to Re: Take two and call me in the morning..., posted by Althea8869 on February 16, 2004, at 11:22:45
> maintaining the R&D pipeline and optimizing the time to market, while maintaining greater vigiliance in the trials process and further separation of the manufacturer from any of the product literature is what needs to happen...
I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding the economics of the pharmaceutical industry to Psycho-Social-Babble. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20040209/msgs/314221.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by BJlass on February 16, 2004, at 18:33:30
In reply to Re: I'll testify against you, posted by noa on February 12, 2004, at 19:13:46
You're missing the whole point of many of these postings.
It isn't really even a question whether or not the drug helped while they were on it, though that's great info to post here too. Obviously, many many people are very upset that their docs didn't tell them/warn them of the withdrawal effects.
Plus, if you knew a drug was causing long-term permanent brain damage, but made you feel great while you were taking it, would you continue to take it? And if so, don't you think you're entitled to know that up front before you swallow one pill?
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