![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5803 to 5827 of 10407. Go back in thread:
Posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 6:58:56
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 1:45:57
You seem to be the angry one, my friend. Perhaps even bitter (my subjective opinion). Peace! Please!
I had just about finished a LONG post to you and was "booted", wiping it out. I am so upset. I agree with more of what you say than you realize, as I was explaining in my obliterated post.
It's 4:00 AM here and maybe I can find time to reconstruct that post tomorrow. You might be surprised at how much we agree.
I DID NOT "CLOG" YOUR IN BOX ON PURPOSE! That is an unfounded, slanderous allegation but you are forgiven for making it. I have no idea how the multiple posts got there! I would never do such a thing. What would it accomplish? What on earth would it accomplish? Please be polite and rational.
For now, consider only this. I've have Social Anxiety Disorder (SAD) for decades. Read about the long term prospects for sufferers of this disorder. XANAX SAVED MY LIFE. IT SAVED MY CAREER. IT SAVED MY SOUL.
For people with Panic Disorders, Xanax should remain in the toolbox. These days, other things, such as antidepressants and other benzos should usually be tried first. Lots of things can be tried first.
Xanax CAN BE dangerous. For most people, it's use should be planned as temporary from inception. Patients should be fully warned of ALL the dangers so that they can make an informed decision...just as with any medication.
I have seen several people use Xanax for years without increasing frequency or bumping the dose.
But I will not disagree that many people will do just that. Howevever, not a scintilla of a per cent will progress to using it as a steroid!My friend, you took Xanax to increase your DHEA levels? Why not just take DHEA? It's available over the counter and inexpensive. You did not simply increase the frequency of use or bump your dose. You misused Xanax in an EPIC (and to my mind -- my opinion only -- , perverse way).
How much did you take? Why in God's name did you use it as a steroid? You used it for a purpose completely contrary to that for which it is prescribed. You KNEW you were doing this at the time. What do you expect when you misuse a drug so utterly and completely?My advice, for whatever it's worth, from the bottom of my heart, is to come to terms with your present status and go on from here. Make the best of it. Don't be bitter. Face the fact that you profligately and recklessly misused and abused a drug. Then forgive yourself and make peace with it.
Read the posts on the substance abuse board by people who damaged their brains with amphetamines. You'll find a couple there by ME. Many of these people have made marvelous progress at forgiveness, acceptance and productively getting on with their lives. They are at PEACE! Read BarbaraCat's marvelous posts in particular. They helped me quite a bit.
By the way, I am now benzodiazapine-free myself. I was lucky and found a combination of two anti-depressants that put my SAD, depression and insomnia (that I have endured for decades) into total remission. I quit Xanax, without being prompted by my doc, cold turkey, and never missed it or craved it or looked back or had a single withdrawal symptom. (But it did save my life.) The Doc had substitutd Klonipin for Xanax. I flushed it (I found it sedating, mentally impairing and depressing). I don't want it. I will never go back. Just like you. I love this feeling of having a clear and uncompromised mind!
I'll try to write more tomorrow. My argument is that Xanax should remain in the toolbox as an option -- one among many and not necessarily a first choice -- only. If you really want to debate THAT, you're on!. It will be interesting and if you score points I will gladly acknowledge them.
Best Regards and Best Wishes. I look forward to a constuctive and open-minded, civil dialog.
Clayton
Posted by Waterlily on December 4, 2003, at 7:53:45
In reply to A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by Clayton on December 3, 2003, at 21:58:13
I find Xanax to be much too sedating. It puts me to sleep. I remember my first horrendous major panic attack...seemed like it lasted for days, and on a holiday weekend. I called the pdoc on call and explained the situation. I told him that I took xanax (previously prescribed for control of anxiety during airplane travel) but that it made me too sleepy. He said "Would you rather panic or be sleepy?". A lot of good that did. I haven't called after hours since then. Once the weekend was over I was able to see my pdoc and he prescribed Ativan, which was really a miracle for me. It controlled my anxiety without making me tired or 'out of it'. It really does break the cycle of anxiety and I wonder if I shouldn't be taking it more often than I am. I use maybe 5 pills of .5 mg every month. The prescription for 60 with two refills on it that I recently had filled should last me for years. My doc asks me every time I see him if I need more.
I've never tried klonopin.
Posted by MBL on December 4, 2003, at 8:23:04
In reply to Anyone had success on Effexor XR? , posted by jp on October 24, 1999, at 14:59:14
coming from someone who has had great success on this med for about a year, and was naieve enough to not even know that people were suffering from all of these side effects until I accidentally found this site yesterday, it does work wonders for some.....I hope those people wont be scared off, because if I saw these posts prior to taking it, I would not have tried it!
In my situation, I did not have severe depression or severe panic attacks, but more, I think, a lot of stress, and had gotten to the point that I could not always control my anxities. When I got home from work at the end of the day, and my husband and kids were all getting home, that was the worst. It was all I could do to not scream "everyone get the "F" away from me, let me have a glass of wine, a ciggarette, cook dinner, and then maybe, just maybe, I'll be able to sit down and talk to everyone about their day!"
Now I enjoy all of the kid questions and the good and bad parts of their days. And I enjoy sharing mine with them.
Anyway, sorry for the long post, but I am so grateful for feeling this way. It was the 4th or 5th med I tried. Some didn't work at all. Some worked for a month or so. This has worked consistently for a year, with no side effects. I also forgot to take it on vacation once, and not knowing the terrible ramifications from withdrawl, thought that I had altitude sickness in Utah! I got the brain having trouble keeping up with the skull thing after about 3 days. Then was perfectly fine after getting back on it. When I did it the 2nd time, I figured it out!
Well shame on my doc, and shame on me for not being more educated But again, I'm glad hearing all the possible side effects didn't have the chance of scaring me off.
I have a better relationship with myself and everyone around me, and I attribute it to effexor helping me to think rationally enough to do that!
Posted by loni on December 4, 2003, at 8:24:51
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 1:45:57
Maxx & Clayton--
The multiple post thing happened to me yesterday as well. I did not intend it and it showed up 4 times. Glitch in the system right now I imagine.
Also, everyone's biochemistry is SO different. Someone's savior is another one's pain. That is why it IS so hard to treat these illnesses.
I used to cry in my pDoc's office, praying for a blood test--anything--that would show definitively what was the best med for me. I was one of the tougher nuts to crack and we knew that would be an issue. Eleven years of med trials later (I am so glad that others are able to find relief much more quickly) and I am on something that "does it" for me. For now. I still wonder about the day it stops working.
Peace.
Posted by camel on December 4, 2003, at 8:29:35
In reply to anyone want to just talk effexor again??, posted by MBL on December 4, 2003, at 8:23:04
Me too!!!
Posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 9:25:24
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 1:21:55
Hey Maxx,
1. The multiple posts are a mystery to me. I'm sorrry. My computer seems glitchy. Maybe, I'm a clutz with the mouse tonight. I just do not know. But think please. What possible motive would I have for doing this on purpose?
2. Here's a quote from your post:
"the mark of a gentleman is to accept dissagreement and not be angry"
I invite you to carefully reread our exchange and honestly tell me who has evinced anger.
3. You have, without provocation, crudely accussed me of many things including "not knowing what I was talking about" to being the employee of a drug company. And much more. All I did was to express PARTIAL disagreement with you.
I have personal experience with every drug I have mentioned.
4.You have "overgeneralized" in tyring to make your points. In so doing, you have managed to make no point at all. For example:
"you don't know what you're talking about...no one considers klonopin less addictive...my second wife was addicted to klonopin. it destroyed a brilliant career"
I consider Klonapin less addictive than Xanax. (That's one more than "no one".)It doesn't give me that "antidepressant boost" or "euphoria" like Xanax. I find it depressing. My pdoc considers it less adddictive than Xanax. And if you would like web links to respected medical literature that demonstarate many doctors consider it less addictive than Xanax, I will supply them. (Although you can find them yourself!)
I am sincerely sorry that your second wife was harmed by Klonapin. But that's only ONE example and it proves no general case whatsoever. It does NOT support the case that Klonapin is not less addictive than Xanax at all! I NEVER said that Klonapin had NO abuse potential. Surly it DOES!
(I do know how it feels. I have battled addictions to several substances. (In the last year, at age 53, I finally beat them all including cigarettes. I don't miss any of them) My two youger brothers are hopeless alchoholics and cocaine addicts. I know how it feels. I am so sorry about your wife.)
5. You have jumped to all sorts of conclusions about what I think and then argued with me for believing things I don't believe and never said. Th irony is that I AGREE with you about so many of these things. For example, you said:
"i was switched to klonopin for a month. precipitated depression, a common complaint, and after being switched back, i was amazed to feel bugs crawling on me for 2 weeks, a typical klonopin withdrawal symptom".
The truth is that I find Klonapin VERY depressing. It is also over sedating, gives me total amnesia for the six hours it is active and utterly destoys my ability to sustain a train of thought. I REALLY HATE IT! After my Pdoc switched me to Klonapin from Xanax, it took me about a weeek to flush it down the toilet. I never went back to the Xanax, either. Not one tablet. And I didn't miss it and I had no withdrawl symptoms from Xanax or Klonpin. Don't miss cigarettes a bit either.
I'm just LUCKY with the lack of withdrawal symptoms. I know it's much tougher for others. I'm not "strong", just lucky. We all react differently.
I have been to hell and back as a result of drug use. I understand suffering as well as anyone.
Frankly, maybe you can help me. I have ONE close friend in the world (which is one more than some people with SADs have). He is about to swallow his first Effexor capsule. I am scared to death for him. I have sent him posts from Psycho-Babble but I don't think he reads them. Any ideas on what I can do?
Posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 9:38:56
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by Waterlily on December 4, 2003, at 7:53:45
Stick with the Ativan. Klonipin is MUCH more sedating than Xanax. It is a much heavier drug.
You are the perfect example of why these medicines should be kept around. You use them sparingly as needed and don't abuse them.
Good Work.
Posted by moose100 on December 4, 2003, at 9:47:06
In reply to anyone want to just talk effexor again??, posted by MBL on December 4, 2003, at 8:23:04
> coming from someone who has had great success on this med for about a year, and was naieve enough to not even know that people were suffering from all of these side effects until I accidentally found this site yesterday, it does work wonders for some.....I hope those people wont be scared off, because if I saw these posts prior to taking it, I would not have tried it!
> In my situation, I did not have severe depression or severe panic attacks, but more, I think, a lot of stress, and had gotten to the point that I could not always control my anxities. When I got home from work at the end of the day, and my husband and kids were all getting home, that was the worst. It was all I could do to not scream "everyone get the "F" away from me, let me have a glass of wine, a ciggarette, cook dinner, and then maybe, just maybe, I'll be able to sit down and talk to everyone about their day!"
> Now I enjoy all of the kid questions and the good and bad parts of their days. And I enjoy sharing mine with them.
> Anyway, sorry for the long post, but I am so grateful for feeling this way. It was the 4th or 5th med I tried. Some didn't work at all. Some worked for a month or so. This has worked consistently for a year, with no side effects. I also forgot to take it on vacation once, and not knowing the terrible ramifications from withdrawl, thought that I had altitude sickness in Utah! I got the brain having trouble keeping up with the skull thing after about 3 days. Then was perfectly fine after getting back on it. When I did it the 2nd time, I figured it out!
> Well shame on my doc, and shame on me for not being more educated But again, I'm glad hearing all the possible side effects didn't have the chance of scaring me off.
> I have a better relationship with myself and everyone around me, and I attribute it to effexor helping me to think rationally enough to do that!
Hi: Happy to hear E works for you! I, too am pleased with the changes brought about by this medication. I am into my ninth week. I still have occasional sweats and some minor sexual side effects. But, saying goodbye, at least for now to the overwhelming anxiety, irritability, and anger has been wonderful. Something you stated made me smile. Prior to Effexor, I would come home from work and not want anyone to talk to me until I was completely relaxed. Now, I come home with a smile and am ready to hear about everyone's day. My mind has stopped racing at warp speed and I can actually think and speak clearly. I must say I have been horrified by all of the negative reaction to Effexor on these boards. Hopefully, it will continue working for me. Thanks for sharing your positive experience.
Posted by burnedout on December 4, 2003, at 9:47:58
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by Waterlily on December 4, 2003, at 7:53:45
All these benzos are supposed to help us.
I think they are all labeled for short-term use (maybe I'm wrong)?bUT i HAVE to agree that over time, unless your body is exceptional, they will become addicting--dependent, just like an SSRI anti-depressant.
My pdoc is one who ranks the order of worse to least as Xanax, Ativan, Klonopin. He tells me that K. is very nearly the same as Ativan, except it has a much longer life in the system --many days, instead of a few hours. So that is why he believes that it will be easier to come off it. The change won't be so abrupt as with Xanax or Ativan. But that doesn't mean coming off will not be without difficulty.
I see his reasoning. Most of what I have read says that if you've used any of these for longer than two weeks, you are at risk.Since I've been working with Ativan, I learned that at 3 mg/day you are boarderline safe, but at 4 mg/day, if you suddenly stop, you are almost sure to have a seizure. I imagine the same would hold true for Xanax
But, as the previous writer said--given the choice of a major panic episode [and one that can spiral depression down so quickly, that you don't even know your in a panic attack--and then be faced with suicide], --which is better? The benzo or the suffering & possibly a tragic death?
Since my doc feels Klonopin is the least of the "evils," we've now switched from Ativan to Klopin. But we used as a measure the dose of Ativan I took to guage how much Klonopin to take.
If Xanax is the only thing that will work, then that's what it has to be. But if you can move to something that has a longer life, I think it would be a little safer--if you had to stop abruptly. Maybe you could try going to one of the other benzos, using the Xanax as a guide for the doseage, and keep going down.
I think that whatever we are having to take is going to eventually fail. And then we will have to bump the dose up to get the same effect. My doc says when that happens, it shows that the body has become dependent on the dose and no longer uses it as a medicine, but as something it needs. That's when instead of upping the dose, we need to try and move it down.
Our plan is fairly simple but very hard to do.
It's been shown through MRI studies that thoughts can stimulate the same parts of the brain and alter how it responds, just as the medicines.
If the Xanax, Ativan, Klonopin are working, then NOW is the time to try and retrain our thinking so it can take control, instead of the drug. This is our window of opportunity--who knows how long it will stay open?
I don't think any of us want to be taking medicines. We'd like to be well. we pray (some of us to be well--I given up on that, and pray now for the strength to endure each day).
We are in a tough spot(s) my friends--and I am new here--I hope we will all be friends and compassionate to one another.
These symptoms we have and the medicines we are using to try and stop them, please remember, are symptoms of the illness and NOT us.
We as people, are ok. Don't let the illness fool you--short-circuit your thinking into believing it is you that is messed up. You are ok. The illness is not--and I don't think any of us wanted to be ill. --just as if we have been run over by a truck, we--ourselves--are not the cause of the suffering, but the suffering is caused by symptoms of the injuries--just as with Panic, PTSD, GAD, Depression, stress/anxiety.It is not our fault. Even if we foolishly stepped out in front of the truck, all it means is we made a mistake--just as every human does. So, don't get down on yourself for being human.
By the way too, I too worked in IT, for INTEL in fact. Because of my former employer, I suffered totally disabling Mj. depression, PTSD, panic, etc.
Everyday at Intel, I was taking Ativan 3 mg /d.
I was able to function fine.But every day, when I got on the interstate, I would have a small panic as I drove the car on the same route I took to where the damage took place.
I was able to control these, by facing them, and using therapy techniques to get them subdued and stoped.
I enjoyed INTEL very much. I was fully awake, no sense of panic, no sense of unable to connect thoughts (or maybe just no sense at all?).
But there came a day, when driving, that I was not able to control the panic. My thoughts couldn't help, the Ativan seemed to have quit. I arrived at work--went into a full blown Panic Attack, which also brought on Asthma.
They had to call the EMTs.
I lost all sense of time. I thought the EMTs had been there for only a few minutes, but found out I had been being worked on for three hours.
Finally, I was carried out of INTEL on a strecther and taken by ambulance to the hospital.There, what did they do? They gave me a shot of benedryl (we later found out I was allergic to the medicine I had been taking for asthma) and MORE Ativan.
Eventually, everything subsided. Intel wanted me back. That I was glad for. Since then though, I have had to stop work entirely.
The drugs are going to fail us. We are intelligent enough to know that is (just guessing) probably 99% true.
It's a scary situation. But the alternative is worse. I just hope we can find a way to beat some of this by changing our way of thinking, before it is too late.
If we are having a respite from the Panic/Anxiety/PTSD/GAD (SAD by the way is Seasonal Affective disorder--depression when you loose light--as in higher lattitudes in the winter--GAD is the "generalized--long term anxiety" disorder), Depression, then let's use this time as wisely as we can to get something in place to help us when the medicine becomes our enemy instead of helper.
I pray that for myself and us all, we will have something in place, something we've learned while we can, that will help us through the trials.
--I know, this has been too long and rambling--
but please, don't rely on the meds to work forever--work hard to build the coping skills, to let the brain, through practice, think thoughts that will help it get well.
Posted by camel on December 4, 2003, at 9:49:39
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 9:25:24
Clayton...not to jump in on your conversation with Maxx but I just wanted to add my 2 cents worth regarding your friend and taking Effexor....I understand your concern after reading so much here and other sites....but as we all know the med reacts differently in everyone. I am going on 3 months now and stil have no s/e nor do I feel the least bit medicated. I was on Paxil for over 2 years and I feel much better on E. If your friend has been prescribed E it must have been for a good reason....if he has tried other avenues to alleviate whatever he is suffering from and has found no relief than maybe just some support and encouragement w/ a little advice is just the right approach. Again..just my 2 cents!!
Posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 9:52:13
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by loni on December 4, 2003, at 8:24:51
Hey, thanks form helping to make peace here! I would never have done those multiple posts on purpose. What would I gain?
By the way, the days when the docs can "calcualte" the right med for you are years off. We know so much but we know so little.
Until them, all we can do is educate ourselves as best we can, choose the best docs we can and then make our best juggement as to whether or not to accept the docs best judgement on a med recomendation. That IS the state od the art.
WE must still use our best judgement and if it doesn't work out, we try again.
Good Luck!
Posted by MBL on December 4, 2003, at 10:03:57
In reply to Re: anyone want to just talk effexor again??, posted by moose100 on December 4, 2003, at 9:47:06
Moose - thank you as well...isn't it nice when we can focus on what's important in life?!
MBL> > coming from someone who has had great success on this med for about a year, and was naieve enough to not even know that people were suffering from all of these side effects until I accidentally found this site yesterday, it does work wonders for some.....I hope those people wont be scared off, because if I saw these posts prior to taking it, I would not have tried it!
> > In my situation, I did not have severe depression or severe panic attacks, but more, I think, a lot of stress, and had gotten to the point that I could not always control my anxities. When I got home from work at the end of the day, and my husband and kids were all getting home, that was the worst. It was all I could do to not scream "everyone get the "F" away from me, let me have a glass of wine, a ciggarette, cook dinner, and then maybe, just maybe, I'll be able to sit down and talk to everyone about their day!"
> > Now I enjoy all of the kid questions and the good and bad parts of their days. And I enjoy sharing mine with them.
> > Anyway, sorry for the long post, but I am so grateful for feeling this way. It was the 4th or 5th med I tried. Some didn't work at all. Some worked for a month or so. This has worked consistently for a year, with no side effects. I also forgot to take it on vacation once, and not knowing the terrible ramifications from withdrawl, thought that I had altitude sickness in Utah! I got the brain having trouble keeping up with the skull thing after about 3 days. Then was perfectly fine after getting back on it. When I did it the 2nd time, I figured it out!
> > Well shame on my doc, and shame on me for not being more educated But again, I'm glad hearing all the possible side effects didn't have the chance of scaring me off.
> > I have a better relationship with myself and everyone around me, and I attribute it to effexor helping me to think rationally enough to do that!
> Hi: Happy to hear E works for you! I, too am pleased with the changes brought about by this medication. I am into my ninth week. I still have occasional sweats and some minor sexual side effects. But, saying goodbye, at least for now to the overwhelming anxiety, irritability, and anger has been wonderful. Something you stated made me smile. Prior to Effexor, I would come home from work and not want anyone to talk to me until I was completely relaxed. Now, I come home with a smile and am ready to hear about everyone's day. My mind has stopped racing at warp speed and I can actually think and speak clearly. I must say I have been horrified by all of the negative reaction to Effexor on these boards. Hopefully, it will continue working for me. Thanks for sharing your positive experience.
>
>
Posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 10:06:35
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by burnedout on December 4, 2003, at 9:47:58
Thank you for the wonderful post. It was beautiful, well-written and highly intelligent.
You have said so many things that I have been trying to say but you have said them so much better.
Yes, the meds will fail.
In the end, all we have is each other.
In the end, all we can do is try to make each others' mortal presence a bit brighter and less painful.
There are many graet mysteries and wonderful diversions in life. But in the final analysis, the only thing of real worth is other human beings.
Posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 10:50:29
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by camel on December 4, 2003, at 9:49:39
Thank you for your kindness in writting. The stories I have read on Psyco-babble have been enough to give me nightmares.
I appreciate your point of view because I must soon make a decision on a new AD. I have been completely immune to side-effects and withdrawal effects from all other ADs and Benzos I've tried. I seem to be lucky that way. Perhaps I should take a chance on Effexor. I KNOW I need to boost norepinephrine as-well-as seratonin. I have also been told by good sources that if Effexor works for you, it is "solid gold".
Please keep me up-to-date and let me know how you are doing. I have a big decision to make.
Thanks so very much!
Posted by camel on December 4, 2003, at 10:59:35
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » camel, posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 10:50:29
Clayton...you are most welcome. I think it comes down to whatever works for you...run with it!!! From what I can tell reading here...if Effexor is going to give you problems it will happen VERY rapidly. Good luck to you and your friend. K
Posted by gator58 on December 4, 2003, at 12:11:15
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by camel on December 4, 2003, at 10:59:35
How long is too long to be on Xanax? I'm in my third year.
Posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 16:38:30
In reply to Re: anyone want to just talk effexor again??, posted by moose100 on December 4, 2003, at 9:47:06
hi. are you speaking of xanax or effexor? if xanax, how much/day?---makes everybody feel great---so it's become a major 'street-drug'. if you use daily, please don't just run-out--if you're talking xanax or any benzo, that would explain utah. how did you find a dr. to script it? very rare these days, unless you've the empty bottle. even then, now, most will turn you away---unwise as they should know you must taper benzos and be kind, leaving that deal to your primary dr. recovering long-term daily benzo users is considered a cake-walk vs. heroin, alcohol, ADs, etc. any dr. now scripting a benzo for just aniety, may lose liscense to practice---fact not hearsay. disabling panic, terminal illness, or low-dose infrequent use---ok. i'd think moderate
red-wine safer for 'general anxiety'. check out dr. heather ashton's site. and benzos.org.uk--if you're using xanax daily. regards
Posted by KimberlyDi on December 4, 2003, at 16:51:26
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » camel, posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 10:50:29
I've said that before: "If it works for you, it's solid gold." It was, and I would still be on it if it weren't for blood pressure problems. Don't let the withdrawal issue scare you off. It does exist, but people are learning to taper off it slowly.
Best of luck to you!
KDi in TX> Thank you for your kindness in writting. The stories I have read on Psyco-babble have been enough to give me nightmares.
>
> I appreciate your point of view because I must soon make a decision on a new AD. I have been completely immune to side-effects and withdrawal effects from all other ADs and Benzos I've tried. I seem to be lucky that way. Perhaps I should take a chance on Effexor. I KNOW I need to boost norepinephrine as-well-as seratonin. I have also been told by good sources that if Effexor works for you, it is "solid gold".
>
> Please keep me up-to-date and let me know how you are doing. I have a big decision to make.
>
> Thanks so very much!
Posted by jparsell82 on December 4, 2003, at 18:12:57
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » camel, posted by Clayton on December 4, 2003, at 10:50:29
Hi Clayton, I was curious. Are/were your taking the regular xanax? Have you tried the XR form? I currently am taking 2mg Xanax XR plus a low dose of prozac daily for Social Anxiety/OCD/Depression. I too tried Klonopin in the past and had horrible memory impairment and mental sluggishness. I was surprised with Xanax that I did not have the mental impairments, I was predicting it would be worse than the Klonopin. There probably is a little cognitive impairment from the Xanax, but it is doing more good for me than bad. My doctor though, is only allowing me to use the Xanax for a 3 or 4 month period. He says, "just time enough to get my anxiety under control", and then I can taper off and just stay on Prozac for long-term. Hmmmm... time will tell. I'd also like to note that I've tried Effexor before and it didn't help a whole lot on the anxiety/nervousness side of social phobia but it helps a lot in the area of social motivation. I was more aggressive and had a stronger desire to socialize. Probably because of it's effects on norepinephrine. Just this week I got the idea of trying Tribulus terrestris with my Xanax & Prozac because of it's supposed to have effects on testosterone & norepinephrine. So I tried, and honestly, was amazed. It made me more vigorous and pro-social. I was talking to people I normally wouldn't talk to at work and doing it with more enthusiasm. Anyways, my combo of Xanax/Prozac/Tribulus seems to be working good for my social anxiety. I'm a little worried about the time when I have to taper off the Xanax though.
Posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 18:30:47
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by gator58 on December 4, 2003, at 12:11:15
depends on dosage and has it been more or less continuous? go to dr. heather ashton's site, or benzos.org.uk---the ashton manual is The global standard on these drugs, it used to be pricey---now free online. 3 years? don't just stop--you'll have to taper. quick detox for long-term (year+)use is pure bs. i do not advise, from my experience and hundreds of contacts, getting into circumstances where you 'run-out'. and many drs., clinics, etc. need money---they'll say they can 'recover' you in 28 days. bull, bull, bull.
you're probably looking at a 6 month's or year's taper. not a bad price for freedom. you may search 'stevie nick's (fleetwood mac) klonopin story. this is not a 'benzo board'---you may visit some of them. i don't know you, but 3 years?
you may have an easy taper and 'the happy ending'---especially if you are under 45 or so. as for the 'benzos are great continuously' posters, blasting away with bold print? continous use, long-term? you need no 'addictive personality' to get nailed. that happens to everyone, long-term. every...last...one. look at the posts on benzos.org.uk showing sweden pays for 8 month's hospitalization for benzo detox. does that sound like a laughing matter.? not really---good luck on your taper. go easy. only way out. regards
Posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 20:26:44
In reply to Clayton... Xanax Xr, etc » Clayton, posted by jparsell82 on December 4, 2003, at 18:12:57
trilibus, testosterone---interesting. i've mentioned xanax is a popular 'street-drug' for body-builders, due to its DHEA enhancment---that boosts testosterone, but also estrogen. xanax is unique that way. before being switched, as a man over 50, to librium, i had a lot more physical energy. i'm guessing trilibus is a natural 'steroid'? as body-builders use it, like xanax. i don't think you'll get zapped by 4 mos. xanax, as long as you have a probably short taper.
DHEA is 'over-the-counter', but any male using it, or its enhancers is usually advised to a full prostate exam. these things all interact. ie., if your blood-work showed elevated PSA, you'd be yanked from DHEA, xanax, or any steroid---pronto. i certainly miss xanax, and having inoperable 'surfing-accident' neural damage, i'm the 1/million approved for life. but just as you never turn your back on a wave, unless you're me when dumb, you gotta watch hormones, steroids, supplements, drugs etc. for physical stuff as well as mental. i'm due for a physical, and if all clear, i'll asked to be switched back to xanax. i Know benzos are like that wave, i know they are incredibly dangerous---but i have a fat neve bundle crushed as a spinal injury that effects the brain's panic center. you probably don't. having experienced acute benzo withdrawal---and knowing hundreds of others who have---makes hell look kind---that's why your dr. has set that limit on xanax. i'd stick to it. real spooky is likely what you'll feel, but not nuked-pschycotic, and in the er.
Posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 21:09:24
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by burnedout on December 4, 2003, at 9:47:58
an elegant ramble i hope all understand. yeah, benzos stopped my panic, as well as the biz accumen---i guess a couple shrink drugs, over time, have lost me 30-40 mil net worth,but worst the appreciation of my children. gone. that's why i must taper-off benzos---living a month on your former day's net-net---not fun. i want that money---i'll take the panic. or be broke. so what if i was an immobile qivering heap for maybe hours sometimes. the rest of the time---took care of biz---after xanax? duh? say what? make money? who cares?---it does that. or let you miss your kids graduation and feel nothing. i was scripted these meds innocently, years ago. before they were widely known problems, a couple drs. warned me, rest said ok. they never felt 'emotional blunting'---their clients did. regards
Posted by Viridis on December 4, 2003, at 21:48:42
In reply to A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax » maxx44, posted by Clayton on December 3, 2003, at 21:58:13
Xanax does seem to carry a higher risk of dependency or even addiction than other benzos, but it's also a great med for the appropriate patients, given good medical supervision.
I've been taking Klonopin and Xanax for over 2 1/2 years now, for debilitating anxiety and depression. These drugs have made a huge difference in my life, and I use them very responsibly. I take 1 mg Klonopin/day and haven't had to increase the dose; side effects were minor and went away quickly, and now I notice absolutely nothing (other than a major decrease in anxiety). I have no doubt that if I stop taking it I'll have to taper off, but it's worth it, and the health risks of constant stress are almost certainly greater than the risks of benzos.
Xanax is a somewhat different beast for me -- I just use it occasionally, for "breakthrough" anxiety or insomnia. Even used rarely (maybe once every week or two), I developed substantial tolerance to its effects and have to take several times as much as I did originally to achieve the same effect. So, I use it very sparingly, but it's great to have when I really need it.
I've discussed all of this with my pdoc, and he agrees that Xanax is much riskier than Klonopin -- but he also agrees that it's very effective. So, he continues to prescribe the same (small) monthly amount, and essentially says to take as much as I need when I need it. He wasn't too surprised by the tolerance, and mainly is concerned that if my frequency of use increases then it's probably time to discontinue it. Using it a few times a month isn't going to get me into trouble, but I wouldn't want to depend on it as a regular anxiolytic.
BTW, I agree that Xanax has mood-lifting effects and have known people who got into real trouble with it. It doesn't seem to make me euphoric, though, so I don't have any incentive to take more than what works for anxiety, or to take it often. It's not a "bad" drug, just one that has to be used carefully and monitored properly, as with other psychiatric meds.
And, despite the hysteria of some of the benzophobes, two of the most commonly prescribed antidepressants (Paxil and Effexor) outrank Xanax in terms of discontinuation difficulty, according to the World Health Organization.
Posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 22:31:57
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by Viridis on December 4, 2003, at 21:48:42
1mg/day klonopin, xanax as needed. call me a benzo-phobe--victim is more accurate--odds are you're addicted to klonopin after 21/2 year's continuous use. you won't know till you try and taper-down. only then will you have the faintest idea of what we, who have been there, are 'hollering' about---world-wide millions. while you're at it, you might want to search, 'long-term benzodiazapine brain damage'.
you could be the 1 in a mil---no problems. good luck. regards
Posted by maxx44 on December 4, 2003, at 23:15:51
In reply to Re: A Balanced Alternative View of Xanax, posted by camel on December 4, 2003, at 9:49:39
if effexor works--it works, no problem there.
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