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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by katia on October 25, 2003, at 15:17:13
In reply to Re: Lamictal, posted by St. John on October 25, 2003, at 14:58:36
Hi St. John,
Have you tried any mood stabilizers pre-Lamictal?
I didn't see that on your list. A combo of mood stabilizers and ADs may help you.
cheers.
katia
Posted by katia on October 25, 2003, at 15:18:47
In reply to Re: oops! same question » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on October 25, 2003, at 14:41:16
Hi Barb,
Here is the link.
I'm still trying to work all this out with redirecting stuff!
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/subs/20031014/msgs/273161.html
Posted by katia on October 25, 2003, at 18:54:23
In reply to Re: oops! same question » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on October 25, 2003, at 14:41:16
Hi Barb,
Just found this post from you regarding basal thermometers -** Nope. I wonder what it is. Let me know if you find out more about it. I've heard about inaccurate tests for sure. I've heard that TSH tests can be inaccurate and the best way to tell is taking the basal body temp first thing in the mornng even before you get up to pee. You shake out a mercury thermometer the night before, preferably a mercury basal one (they're getting hard to find), and stick it under the armpit (why the armpit I haven't the foggiest) for 10 minutes. If it's under 97.4 you're most likely hypothyroid. Mine was 96.4 pretty consistently just a while ago. Of course, with lithium my TSH was going through the roof. I'm hoping with the natural thyroid med I'll start evening out. There's been some controversy lately about if supplemental T3 is really needed. An endo study said this. There was a big storm of backlash on the about.thyroid.com site (a goldmine in case you haven't visited it). I dunno. I feel better on T3/T4 but it can make me jittery if I take too much at one time, so I split the it.
I bought one (a basal thermometer - an electronic one/battery operated, not mercury) and I stick it under my tongue for one minute until the beep. Is this as accurate as a mercury one under the arm? My body temp. has been low, but not like you describe. Average is 98.3. I'll keep monitoring it thru'out the month. See if the rise/fall is around my ovulation. (that's what this thermometer is for).
Did I tell you I recently read that a lot of rapid cyclers do well on hypothyroid meds? even if the tests indicate that they are not hypothyroid.katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 25, 2003, at 19:56:58
In reply to Re: oops! same question » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on October 25, 2003, at 15:18:47
> I'm still trying to work all this out with redirecting stuff!
>
>
**Me too. I'll follow you there in a trice.
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 25, 2003, at 21:09:27
In reply to Re: oops! same question » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on October 25, 2003, at 18:54:23
Hi Katia,
> I bought one (a basal thermometer - an electronic one/battery operated, not mercury) and I stick it under my tongue for one minute until the beep. Is this as accurate as a mercury one under the arm?**Good question - I wonder also. I bought a digital thermom recently. Is yours lavender with a cute little baby on the front? When I took my underarm temp with it it was much lower than my mouth temp so I don't know what to think. I haven't compared it with my mercury thermom yet but I've read many many times NOT to use digital but mercury thermoms. I really don't know why. Digitals are so much easier.
Aside from the digital vs. mercury question, perhaps the armpit is supposed to be a degree lower than oral, much like rectal temp is a degree higher? I think this is one of those self tests to figure out which method works best for us.
>>My body temp. has been low, but not like you describe. Average is 98.3.
**I'm not sure that my frigid 97.4 readings are accurate anymore, since I've been using the old armpit method. But maybe those armpit numbers mean something for basal tests that score on some kind of curve.
Are you taking it when you first wake up or after you've been up and about? If you're 98.3 when you first wake up - and this is before you even have that first pee or stretch - chances are you're not hypothyroid. Chances are you might be HYPERthyroid. But please don't quote me on this. As I understand it, morning temps should be no more than 97.6 until you start ambulating - a degree lower than the standard 98.6. That's why lower than 97.4 is considered hypothyroid, taking into account that normal waking should be 97.6.
Have you ever been checked for thyroid antibodies? (Hashmoto's antibodies is a test you have to plead and beg for in our typical HMO arena. Do NOT expect that it will be remotely suggested unless you ask for it.) Hashimoto's thryoiditis is an autoimmune form of thyroid disorder that's been implicated in bipolar disorder. It fluctuates up and down and mimics that good ol' rollercoaster ride we know so well. Hashitmoto's is a little blip in the normal thyroid disorder spectrum but no less frequent or severe.
>> Did I tell you I recently read that a lot of rapid cyclers do well on hypothyroid meds? even if the tests indicate that they are not hypothyroid.
**I haven't heard about it regarding rapid cyclers specifically and that's very interesting. You'd think that anything that's the least bit hyper inducing would throw rapid cyclers into a spin.
Thyroid hormone is being used as a general augmentor for pmeds with good results and the T3 form especially. But there's been alot of controversy lately about T3. Have you been to http://thyroid.about.com? If not, by all mean go there. It's mind boggling. Catcha later - Barbara
Posted by katia on October 25, 2003, at 22:23:29
In reply to Re: oops! same question » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on October 25, 2003, at 21:09:27
Normal morning temps should be a full degree lower than the normal 98.6? That's odd. and yes, my readings were before I did anything. Would hyperthyroid be accountable for the morning spaciness and cold hands/low blood pressure? It doesn't correlate.
mabye hashimoto's or may be adrenals.
what to think?.....
thanks for you input.
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 25, 2003, at 22:29:32
In reply to Re: Lamictal, posted by St. John on October 25, 2003, at 14:58:36
St. John,
If it weren't for this board, I'd be in a whole world of hurt. My pdoc is a very compassionate man, but even so he doesn't have time to prize apart the threads of the various disorders clearly enough to understand my strange symptoms. So, I've had to suggest - very diplomatically - my ideas on what I was going through and what I'd learned from my own research. He, being the dude with the presciption pad and far too many patients, was more than happy to oblidge.So, welcome to our sanity=challenged but understandint coterie here in Babbble Land. If you don't find answers in the usual pmed channdels, you might be a candidate for other less traditional avenues. This information we may be able to provide. BarabaraCat
Posted by fluffy on October 26, 2003, at 10:31:02
In reply to Re: oops! same question » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on October 25, 2003, at 14:41:16
> Hi Katia!
> Good to hear from you. Yosemite, ahhhhhh... many fond memories. Yeah, let's meet up in substance. Give me a jingle when you're ready. BTW, I found Fluffy here too.Hi you guys.
I'm having a terrible time with depression and drug trials. It makes me even more sad when the drugs make me have a bad reaction.
I've been in a major depression for 3 weeks now, and feeling pretty dim about my future. I pretty much feel like life isn't worth living. When my pdoc asks me questions re: depression, I hit all of the symptoms, and it makes me feel really helpless.
I've been through a doozy of a week or so. First, when I was showing signs of a major depression (a moderate one became major), he tried wellbutrin on me. It made me feel really anxious at first, like I'd had a cup of coffee. I liked the activation b/c I was just laying around the house, finding it difficult to move. But I soon started to feel really agitated and irritated. I started feeling agitated with my own voice, and it felt like it was rattling really loudly in my head. (!!!--what is that about?!) And I had a mini-manic episode, where I couldn't stop working on a halloween costume, cleaning the house...basically running around like a chicken with my head cut off. I felt a lot of anxiety in my stomach, and I knew it was time to call the doc next morning. Guess what? He took me off the WB, and I made an emergency appt.
The team of doctors I'm working with decided to load me full of Trileptal (I was at 600mg, and they decided to first double my dose, and eventually triple it to 1800mg by the end of this week). I started to feel my face, throat and trunk go numb after the first day. It really alarmed me, and I called my doctor. He said to go back down to 600mg. He's always asking me if there's something else I want to tell him, as though my side effects aren't real, and I just want to get attention and kill myself.
Of course, I wouldn't mind not living right now, but when I call my doc about SIDE EFFECTS, I'm alarmed about SIDE EFFECTS.I still feel numb, and I have a twitching nervousness in my legs and stomach.
I'm so tired of this!! My other options right now are depakote and zyprexa. And I just don't care anymore. Just take me on the paddy wagon already.
Please give me some support right now. Any advice is needed. When I started to feel desperate, I went to my parents, and my dad started to preach at me about how other people are "really" dying, and I need to pull myself up by my bootstraps, pray more and go to church. I'm really, really sad and frustrated.
I hope you guys are feeling well--I wouldn't wish this on anyone.
lovins,
Katy
Posted by katia on October 26, 2003, at 13:40:50
In reply to Barb-cat, Katia--I need help!, posted by fluffy on October 26, 2003, at 10:31:02
Dearest Katy,
I'm so sorry to hear about you severe depression. Are you able to work like this?
One thought - why didn't the doctors find a middle ground, like try titrating up slower on the Trileptal instead of all (1800mg) or nothing (back to 600mg)?> I'm so tired of this!! My other options right now are depakote and zyprexa. And I just don't care anymore. Just take me on the paddy wagon already.
* I know. It's so disheartening and exhausting, you poor thing. But I've seen a lot of strength in you that I don't think you're ready for the paddy wagon just yet! Depakote could work. Maybe talk about with your doc. Maybe even adding Dep. to the mix could help - or replace Tril. I'm really not an expert, these are just my thoughts.
Zyprexa is an anti-psychotic right? Maybe you need something more activating (in a healthy way?) Are you sleeping? If not, maybe Zyprexa could help or even Depakote. Are you lethargic now since stopping the Wellbutrin? Are you able to increase the Lamictal? that's an idea.
What other support do you have now? Friends? I remember you broke up with your boyfriend. I wonder if that triggered this new eposide. Not to say it wasn't a good decision (it probably was!), aside from that just any change at all for us sensitive creatures can trigger our moods to go out of whack.
I know drinking is such a good saviour at times, but it's probably best to avoid that now as it can spiral you down further (if you are drinking). Are you in therapy? My therapist has been great at just being there for me over the course of the past year while I've been dealing with ups and downs of mood and the hellish trials of all these meds.I'm sorry to hear that your parents aren't more supportive dear Katy. That hurts. A book maybe to get them is "When Someone You Love Is Depressed" It's an educational and supportive book for those on the other side of the depressed person that hopefully will enduce empathy and support. Maybe they just need a little bit of education from the outside, not necessarily from you as that sometimes hits too close to home.
That sort of "unempathy" and "advice" urks me to no end. It fuels such a fire in me that I end up surviving just on that fuel alone. It fuels the stubborn warrior in me.
There are people who understand and you're in a lot of darkness now, but it will pass and you will see again, I promise! Journal, take baths, cry cry and cry, paint, walk in the woods, near a beach, take good care of yourself and don't do more than you have to, even if that means calling in sick. Just ride this out and it will pass.
I'm here thinking about you.
Hugs,
Katia
Posted by fluffy on October 26, 2003, at 17:33:16
In reply to Re: Barb-cat, Katia--I need help! » fluffy, posted by katia on October 26, 2003, at 13:40:50
> Dearest Katy,
> I'm so sorry to hear about you severe depression. Are you able to work like this?
> One thought - why didn't the doctors find a middle ground, like try titrating up slower on the Trileptal instead of all (1800mg) or nothing (back to 600mg)?***Thanks Katia--It's nice to "hear your voice". I'm really having trouble working right now. I can't eat, can't move very well, and the only thoughts I have are negative. I can't bear other people's company...they seem all sped up and chirpy, and I'm just a blur. My job involves lots of contact with people. And my teaching job...dear god, I don't know how I get through the material and get to class. It's all I can bear to just get out of bed.
>> * I know. It's so disheartening and exhausting, you poor thing. But I've seen a lot of strength in you that I don't think you're ready for the paddy wagon just yet! Depakote could work. Maybe talk about with your doc. Maybe even adding Dep. to the mix could help - or replace Tril. I'm really not an expert, these are just my thoughts.
> Zyprexa is an anti-psychotic right? Maybe you need something more activating (in a healthy way?) Are you sleeping? If not, maybe Zyprexa could help or even Depakote. Are you lethargic now since stopping the Wellbutrin? Are you able to increase the Lamictal? that's an idea.***Zyprexa is an atypical anti-psychotic, known to have mood stabilizing properties, including anti-manic and anti-depressant qualities. There have been lots of studies supporting it's use as a mood stabilizer, and it is becoming a good mix for BP depression to combine it with Prozac w/o switching people into mania. It's probably my next try.
I think about Depakote as well. But who knows! My doctor says that there have been numerous studies supporting Lamictal lacks any efficacy past 200mg. Whatever.
> What other support do you have now? Friends? I remember you broke up with your boyfriend. I wonder if that triggered this new eposide. Not to say it wasn't a good decision (it probably was!), aside from that just any change at all for us sensitive creatures can trigger our moods to go out of whack.
***It's possible that my break up feuled this whole thing. I know it was probably a good decision, but the loneliness is really disconcerting. And he was a life line of sorts for me. I broke down and called him the other day, esp. since my parents aren't being supportive. I don't really have many other supports right now except for a friend who is also bipolar, and she's worth her weight in gold.
Are you in therapy? My therapist has been great at just being there for me over the course of the past year while I've been dealing with ups and downs of mood and the hellish trials of all these meds.
***I'm in therapy right now. I like my psychologist, and he helps with the family/relationship stuff. But I'm going to try a new form of therapy at the mood disorders clinic that's free. It involves knowing your triggers and general understanding of the illness, yadda, yadda.
> I'm sorry to hear that your parents aren't more supportive dear Katy. That hurts. hits too close to home.
***I'm working on them, and mostly working on me. I tried to get them to read my bipolar survival guide, but my dad was then only one who read any of it, and he still pulled that shit!
Thanks so much Katia--You sound better--I'm so glad!
Katy
Posted by ginger C on October 27, 2003, at 11:02:54
In reply to Barb-cat, Katia--I need help!, posted by fluffy on October 26, 2003, at 10:31:02
Just keep in mind that mental illnesses are biological in nature and that you are not responsible for feeling like you do. You can't just pull yourself up because if you could you already would have no one likes feeling this way. I think yor dad may need some information on mental illness in order to help you get through this. There is an organization called NAMI National Alliance for the Mentally Ill. This organization offers a free course for family members who have an ill relative. The course is called family -to-family and it is offered free of charge. If you will go to www.nami.org they will help you find a chapter near you. In the meantime hang in there and don"t be so hard on yourself. I'll be thinking about you.
Posted by ginger C on October 27, 2003, at 11:21:14
In reply to Re: Lamictal » ginger C, posted by katia on October 25, 2003, at 13:38:16
Katia! I am Bi-Polar I
Posted by St. John on October 27, 2003, at 12:37:04
In reply to Lamictal side effects, posted by seamus o'noolan on June 30, 2003, at 17:37:40
Here's a question that has relevance, I guess. I hope by departing from the current tangent, I'm not being too self-centered.
I'm in the midst of some sadness now that is not related to depression. I'm able to "feel" the sadness in the best and most meaningful way, and it is not pulling me into the despair that I have with an episode of major depression. Moreover, it's unrelated to the hopelessness that is part of my normal state of mind. It's good to feel the sadness, at least in part because it's congruent with the source of the sadness and it would be inauthentic not to feel it. However, in the past while on AD's I couldn't feel much of anything, including sadness. Is there any opinion out there about Lamictal and proportional emotions? I'd love to hear about this.
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 27, 2003, at 18:34:20
In reply to Barb-cat, Katia--I need help!, posted by fluffy on October 26, 2003, at 10:31:02
Oh, dear Katy! Sorry I haven't gotten back to you until now - been away for a few days. Zyprexa might be the thing to get you through such a bad spell like this. Sounds like you're at your wit's end, and things can seem so hard when you're that down and scared and the brain circuitry is blown. Ditto Katia's advice to cry and cry and cry. You have to breathe and breathe as well since we all know how holding the breath when we're scared mobilizes anxiety to get away from that tiger.
Whenever I feel a good cry coming on I grab 3 fluffy bathtowels, go into the bathroom, somehow remember how to turn on the faucets and get into a hot bath with some aromatherapy oil. I cry into the fluffy towel to muffle the sound - it's nice to mop up with and a towel is so comforting anyway. Between the tears and the tub water you usually need 2 and then one to dry off. When a good wail is coming I turn on the faucets so no one can hear me sobbing into my towel.
It's a lovely place to have a cry, everything's so wet and primal. You can do the same thing in the shower too, not so relaxing but still wet and steamy. Somehow beats curling up into fetal position on the bed and sobbing into a pillow.
Afterwards a nice cup of chamomile tea and to bed with my journal. After journaling maybe I'll read a good trashy novel about someone who is miserable -the last thing I need is perky. Good to get some ice cubes and rub your tear-swollen face and eyes with them. All those people who annoy you can just fade away. For the most part they really are annoying so it's not just you. Pretty soon, your nerves will be soothed and you'll be clearer on the next step. Amazing what comes up once we start to cry and cry. It feels like a big sign of relief that it's out and not still inside.
Something to consider very carefully: might you be having a bad reaction to your meds? Maybe what you think is going on is something else - I have no advice or suggestions but perhaps piling such high doses on you and you're not feeling any better is saying something.
Dear Katy, things will get better, you just hang in there and get out a nice Fluffy-like crying towel. I'll sing you a lullaby tonight and wish you a restful sleep and sweet dreams. Love, Barbara
Posted by fluffy on October 28, 2003, at 9:02:07
In reply to Re: Barb-cat, Katia--I need help! » fluffy, posted by BarbaraCat on October 27, 2003, at 18:34:20
Hi Barb-cat, Katia, Ginger C--
Thanks for all of your posts. Lord knows I needed them. All of the Trileptal that was piled on me seems to have washed out of my system. The crying spells have stopped (for now). I'm not feeling like a million bucks, but I don't feel like I want to give up anymore. I start feeling like no-one or nothing will help me get un-depressed (no med, no person, no technique), and I get very fatalistic and start catastrophizing, which I guess is a "symptom" of depression. I just don't want to be stuck for another 5 months like I was last year. But maybe this one won't last long....Besides, since i've acknowledged my illness, I need to be prepared to be depressed again, and not feel like it's a failure on my part.
Anyway--Barb-cat I LOVE your crying advice. It's advice that could only come from a crying veteran!! I love the idea of making crying a sensual experience!
I have been blaming myself for all of this. I'm in the process of "labling" my depresssion and just taking it easy everyday, rather than beating myself up.
I'll find you in another thread and hi-jack again. (maybe i should just have a seperate PB e-mail account)...
thanks so much--many hugs to you,
Katy
Posted by katia on October 28, 2003, at 13:18:10
In reply to St. John--Sorry to hi-jack...Thanks you guys, posted by fluffy on October 28, 2003, at 9:02:07
Hi Fluffy,
glad you're feeling better (at least a little bit). You know, I've felt some of the most out of control crazy ON meds than off them. when the dose isn't right or if it's the wrong med, it can worsen everything. And it even worsens the hopelessness of it all BECAUSE you're on medication!!! and then we think, well nothing will work now, I'm a hopeless case. Seriously, i've had the worst "bottom dropping out losing it" feeling falling to my knees clutching my stomach and howling like I'm losing my mind - ON meds.
If the Tri. doesn't work at higher doses and it's not working now, maybe you should talk to your docotor and try Depakote or try upping the Lamictal.
keep in touch.
Katia
Posted by linnette on October 29, 2003, at 0:45:42
In reply to St. John--Sorry to hi-jack...Thanks you guys, posted by fluffy on October 28, 2003, at 9:02:07
Hey Katy,
I am so sorry that I haven't caught up to you until tonight, and that you have been having such a hard time. My heart goes out to you.
Perhaps the break-up did escalate the depressive episode. And I'm sure that your family's lack of support, or understanding of BP illness is nothing short of exasperating. It actually made me angry when I read your post about their reaction. You see, some of the folks I work with share the same attitude as your folks. I have heard the same exact comments and attitudes from those few folks I have gotten close to during my employment there. They just don't get it, and it pisses me off so much that I could just get on my soapbox sometimes. Of course even some folks with no religious foundation don't get it either.
I have some input; whether it will help you is uncertain. But here goes; I have been on lamictal for about 7 weeks now..And I am now up to 125 mgs. It has made a world of difference, although I am still having some mood swings, the major depression has lifted, and I am finally able to carry though on my tasks which is a huge improvement for me..The low mood does increase as my dose wears off. Maybe increasing the lamictal would help level you out even more. I know that it is stimulating for me as well, in a good way.
Also wondering if going off the wellbutrin cold turkey is what helped send you into the depressive tail spin, compounded with the break-up. I thought that wellbutrin was suppose to be less likely to cause mania than the other AD's. I took it a few years back, and when I quit cold turkey I went totally wacko..I just know that had I been on something else, to curtail the side effects or the withdrawal I would have been ok. I know that meds aren't the whole answer, but gosh, the way the mania kicked in...and then just stop the wellbutrin.. it seems sort of cold..but I'm no doc and you and your doc know your med history best. And it sounds like the trileptal decrease has maybe helped.
It sounds like you are doing a little better though, and crying does help. Especially when you are experiencing grief, it is very therapeutic.
Do take care, and I am thinking about you. I work during the day, and try to read the posts, and am still getting used to how to post..
Do take care and know you are in my thoughts.
Hugs,
Linnette.
Posted by linnette on October 29, 2003, at 1:14:38
In reply to Re: Lamictal side effects, posted by St. John on October 27, 2003, at 12:37:04
> Here's a question that has relevance, I guess. I hope by departing from the current tangent, I'm not being too self-centered.
>
> I'm in the midst of some sadness now that is not related to depression. I'm able to "feel" the sadness in the best and most meaningful way, and it is not pulling me into the despair that I have with an episode of major depression. Moreover, it's unrelated to the hopelessness that is part of my normal state of mind. It's good to feel the sadness, at least in part because it's congruent with the source of the sadness and it would be inauthentic not to feel it. However, in the past while on AD's I couldn't feel much of anything, including sadness. Is there any opinion out there about Lamictal and proportional emotions? I'd love to hear about this.
>
>hi St John,
I know what you are referring to. Since I have been increasing the lamictal I have been dealing with issues that I know were buried, but are now right in my face. And the sadness I feel for some things feel as though the event just happened.But it isn't a "bad" sort of sadness, just more introspection and a cleansing feeling, and I am able to confront my past without being so damn hard on myself. And I am not afraid of these emotions. The lamictal, for me, just makes me feel more normal and clear headed without being pulled into the black hole of depression or the agitated anxiety.
In all of my med trials, and after being on almost every AD and mood stabilizer there is out there I am feeling hopeful. (knocking on wood).
My moods are still a little shakey, as I am still ramping up on my dose, and I get irritable, sad, angry, but I don't think of them as "depression" in the sense that I did like a couple of months ago. It is more like "hey it is ok to feel these emotions, these things would make many folks emotional, it's ok."
So in answer to your post, yes, I have noticed the same reaction since being on the lamictal. But further perhaps it isn't the lamictal, but just the fact that our brain chemistry is normalizing (thanks to the lamictal), and we are feeling what everyone feels.
I enjoyed your post. Please keep sending feedback. Hopefully this was not too long of a post.
I am planning to go up to 150 on the lamictal and then will see my pdoc for an update.
Take care
Linnette
Posted by St. John on October 29, 2003, at 9:04:26
In reply to Re: Lamictal side effects, posted by linnette on October 29, 2003, at 1:14:38
Thanks for the honest response. It's funny, but there really is a difference between sadness with a source that has objectively "unhappy" content and depression that is pervasive and at least on one level transcends objective sources. To be authentic, one must be able to feel real sadness, and this is what, in my experience, ADs have denied. If resolution to depression means flat feelings with no objective lows, then it's almost as bad as being depressed. What's more, I can remember through the years the inability to feel real sadness--as well as no real experience of joy--that must have been something from my undiagnosed depression and disthymia. Thanks again.
Posted by fluffy on October 29, 2003, at 10:39:22
In reply to lamictal followup for fluffy, posted by linnette on October 29, 2003, at 0:45:42
Hi all--
Again--thanks so much for your posts and support. Linnette--thanks for getting back to me. I'm really glad that the Lamictal is working for you.
You know, it couldn't be more apparent to me that I AM bipolar when I look at the events of the past week or so. Sometimes I forget what the pit of depression feels like, and what it feels like to pull out of it and see the clouds part and have positive thoughts again. It's disconcerting, but hey--I know I need meds.
For whatever reason, I have had 3 (!!!) NORMAL days. I couldn't be happier. On monday, I got my appetite back. I was just taking it easy in my house, and I got hungry! I've been eating pretty well, and sleeping well without my benzo too! (I am knocking on wood, you can be sure).
I looked at my mood chart and saw that I have been taking Trileptal at 600mg for 3 weeks now. My hypothesis is that maybe it took that long for the stuff to settle in my system. I'd be willing to up the dose one notch again soon to see if it bothers me, but I really don't want to do the loading thing again. That's hospital stuff, and I was trying to KEEP my job by doing outpatient med adjustments. How I made it to work the past week, I'll never know. Thank god for my understanding co-worker. I had to miss work for three days. I really hope this lasts. But for now, I'll take a temporary cloud parting as a ray of hope.
As for the abrubt discontinuation of WB goes...well, I really don't know how else we should have done it. I was at the lowest dose of extended release (150mg) for only a week. It's possible that it put me in a temporary tailspin, but it wasn't unlike the turbulence I was feeling before. It's the least likely to cause a switch in BP folks, but it can definitely cause one, as I can attest now. It can also work beautifully for some people. My bipolar friend has been on it for a few years now, and she loves it as an AD.
Best of luck to all, and I'm glad everyone seems to be doing better.
Let's keep in touch.
Katy
Posted by fluffy on October 29, 2003, at 10:59:40
In reply to Re: Lamictal side effects, posted by St. John on October 29, 2003, at 9:04:26
Hi St. John--
I hope you are closer to giving Lamictal a try. It is really easy to tolerate the side effects, and they go away pretty quickly.
One of the great things about Lamictal (and other mood stabilizers) is that they don't seem to cause the apathetic, non-feeling that AD's seem to cause. I've heard that in some people, Lithium or Depakote causes a "wet blanket" feeling. But I have never heard anyone on this board complaining of that from Lamictal.
Two thoughts: (all of these ideas come from things I've READ, not experienced, to take from it what you will..)
1) Have you ever tried an SSRI with Wellbutrin? This seems to be a trend that is working well with lots of unipolar folks...some of them my friends. Apparently, the SSRI's work on seratonin receptors, while the WB works on the dopamine and norepinephrine receptors, getting all of them jump started. It causes fewer side effects than Effexor, which is supposed to have a similar action on all receptors.
2) Have you tried to augment an AD with Zyprexa (an atypical antipsychotic)? Zyprexa also works on all receptors, with a "shot-gun" effect. It is supposed to be very effective on depressions, esp. when used in conjunction with an SSRI. It can be a powerful add-on, just like Lithium.
If Lamictal fails to lift your depression, then there are many options to try as far as other mood stabilizers (alone or with AD's).
Good luck St. John. Keep in touch.
Katy
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 31, 2003, at 19:31:09
In reply to Re: Lamictal side effects, posted by fluffy on October 29, 2003, at 10:59:40
Hi Katy and All,
We sure do have a great buddy system here, eh? Sometimes I think youse guys are closer to me than most of my non-virtual friends! I'm glad you're doing better, Katy. I've been real busy lately and haven't had time to catch up on messages but came to this one first to see how you were doing. When the bottom falls out that's all there is. It's so hard to jump start those neurons into seeing anything but hopelessness and 'Aw, sh*t, here it goes again!'.St. John, the whole idea of valid sadness vs. depression sure would fill a philosophical tome. This world is in sorry shape and sometimes I think that anyone who isn't seriously depressed just isn't paying attention. It's a worthy thing to peacefully allow that sorrow in and not shove it away, although I think the saints are the only ones who can do this consistently. Until we know how to just be with the intense pain that we of the sensitive ilk experience so acutely, meds are good training wheels.
I know without any doubt that sadness and stress have triggered my genetic predisposition toward mood disorders. Hey, some people get heart disease, some get cancer, some get everything - I am so grateful that I don't have anything too serious on top of the mood grunge.
I deal with grief on a daily basis, my own, the plight of innocent creatures who are at the mercy of a violent reality called Life in the Third Dimension, the difficulty of finding a sense of life purpose that actually pays something when so much of all of our efforts are crucial at this time. I'm tired of jobs that are soul draining and a waste of time only to get that stupid paycheck to have enough money to go back to work another week. Argghhh! I guess that's why I got fibromyalgia and got too sick to work anymore. Drastic, but whatever works.
Life is just hard. It can be great, but even the good times are tinged with the dread of losing them. The Buddha's First Noble Truth is that 'Life if suffering' and boy was he right. But he also said that there's a way out of that suffering and that is to not cling to delusion, not cling to distractions to avoid the pain. That by just being with what is moment by moment gives rise to the trust that mind stuff is just that, just stuff. Letting it be, letting it pass through without causing it to stick through clenching around it allows it to go on its un-merry way.
One thing that's been helping me ALOT lately as I go through another round of intense anxiety and ultra-sensitivity, insomnia and clutched breathing is to keep telling myself that 'I can take it'. We keep forgetting this in the midst of despair - that we've been through it before, grew from it, and there's no reason why we can't do it again. It's only that clamping down, stopping the breath, resisting the discomfort (intense, yes, but we haven't died yet from it), that the crap gets lodged and sticks around. Fear feeds on itself. So here's a good trick. When it gets bad, just say loudly to yourself, whether you believe it or not (your frightened child will) 'I CAN TAKE IT!!'. Been working for me. Love to you all. - Barbara
Posted by katia on November 1, 2003, at 15:03:19
In reply to Re: Lamictal side effects » fluffy, posted by BarbaraCat on October 31, 2003, at 19:31:09
HI Barb,
Thanks for your long post of reassurance.
I decided on a whim to take my temp in the evening and even the afternoon. It's 97.3 pretty consistently even now in the morning since it's gotten colder. What of this? I thought temps were suppose to be colder in the morning. I'm proving to be the opposite of this. I'm upping the Lamictal as my only med at the moment and see how that goes - maybe adding Li. However, I'd prefer to try Armour instead of Li. if we get to that point. I'm always so friggin' cold I can't stand it. As soon as the weather gets below 65 degrees. I lose it.
What does Madame Barbara thinks of this?
katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 1, 2003, at 16:35:45
In reply to hypothyroid » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on November 1, 2003, at 15:03:19
Hi Miss KittyKatia,
Are you taking it orally or armpittedly? I've noticed about 1/2 degree less by armpit. I asked my naturopath about this and she said the verdict is out as to which is the better way to take it, but if yours is really less than 97.4 (and some say 97.6) then chances are you're hypothyroid. No matter what the standard TSH tests say. The TSH blood test measures pituitary/hypothalamus response to the level of circulating thyroid hormone but not what's actually getting into the cells. So even if your TSH is within normal bounds you could still be low. Another thing is that standard tests are just that, standard one size fits all. Many doctors think that as long as you're within the range, usually 0.2 to 5, then you're fine. Not so. Anything over 3 is too high, especially for people with mood disorders.Some of us have trouble converting T4 into T3 and the active form isn't getting to where it counts. There's been some controversy lately about the need for T3 at all. Alot of doctors think that T4 always gets converted to T3 and this may be so for many people, but not for all of us. I do much better and need much less when I'm on the natural dessicated thyroid.
Something that you might find interesting with your consistent 97.3 temp is that 2-1/2 years ago when I was at a very low point physically and emotionally I was tracking my temp. It was 97.4 pretty consistently no matter how much I whipped myself into activity. Always a bone chilling cold, and spacey unreal depression and weeping. My fibro symptoms were much worse also. On days when I was feeling relatively good my temp was higher.
So, if you are hypothyroid (and your body temp is the best indicator of this) then you could truly be feeling ghastly. The thyroid is basically the spark of life for our bodies and everything you can think of is affected when you're off, either hypo or hyper. You'd think that axiety would be mainly a hyper thing and too much definitely causes sweating, anxiety, palpitations, tremors. But hypo also causes anxiety along with coldness, constipation, depression, bipolar swings, frequent colds, weight gain, muscle cramps and aches (is implicated in fibromyalgia), a bone sapping weariness, insomnia and extreme morning draginess. Also, the cells' little furnaces can't burn hot enough to detoxify so you get that yucky toxic feeling as well.
Don't be pursuaded into thinking more iodine is the ticket. I've had many many healthfood store clerks insist on this and it ain't true. Iodine deficiency will definitely cause hypothyroidism, but most of us get plenty of iodine anyway and if there's a metabolic dysfunction iodine won't do it. Ultimately it's a symptom of some other problem, probably in the hypothalamus, but until someone figures out how to heal the root cause we're consigned to taking pills.
If you are hypothyroid then you're on thyroid medication pretty much for life unless a minor miracle occurs. Something you might try before anything is taking L-tyrosine, B6 and C together in the morning. L-Tyrosine 1M, Vit B6 100mg, Vit C 2G. Tyrosine is the precursor to thyroxine and dopamine. One caveat is L-tyrosine can be activating to bipolars, but I've never found it to be so and get a nice lift from it. It sounds like you have access to good complimentary health care and sometimes the best way to judge is to start taking a small dose to see. You also might be one of those who do well on T4 alone. It's really an experiment until you get it just right - just like our head meds. - Barbara
> I decided on a whim to take my temp in the evening and even the afternoon. It's 97.3 pretty consistently even now in the morning since it's gotten colder. What of this? I thought temps were suppose to be colder in the morning. I'm proving to be the opposite of this. I'm upping the Lamictal as my only med at the moment and see how that goes - maybe adding Li. However, I'd prefer to try Armour instead of Li. if we get to that point. I'm always so friggin' cold I can't stand it. As soon as the weather gets below 65 degrees. I lose it.
> What does Madame Barbara thinks of this?
> katia
Posted by katia on November 1, 2003, at 18:02:42
In reply to Re: hypothyroid » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on November 1, 2003, at 16:35:45
Hi Barbara,
Thanks for the info. I'm so dizzy as well and nauseous. I just went for a walk in the afternoon and came straight back and took my temp - 97.8 after a walk in the sun. I'll monitor it straight for a month. My period just ended so that could have something to do with it.
I'll try the l-tryo since I have it and the b and c vits.
cheerio.
kits.
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