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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 514 to 538 of 948. Go back in thread:
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 1, 2003, at 13:45:17
In reply to Lithium Survey » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on August 31, 2003, at 16:36:22
Well, Friends,
I was having such a great time yesterday evening, felt wonderful, calm, hopeful. Was cleaning house and singing and dancing to CDs while I was working. High on Life, yesseree. Thought 'Even cleaning groaty caked on dishes is fun when you're feeling good'. Decided to write to you all and say 'Hey, I feel good! It's working!'. So what did dumb me do? Decided to 'celebrate' with a leetle glass of wine left over from a dinner party the night before, of which I had none, needing to focus. You guessed it, one glass led to another. I was having so much damn fun that I broke open another bottle. I vaguely remember halfway removing the cork and then yanking it out with my teeth. Have vague memories of the night (oh, yeah, I also smoked a smidge of pot - at least that's what I remember), but the worst was when my husband came home. I don't remember what the problem was. I can always dredge one up pertaining to something he did/didn't do. But really, it has everything to do with how he triggers painful stuff from my past in me. This one thing in particular really did piss me off, however, but not to the extent of my reaction.So, I blasted into him. Mean and unreasonable, the Harpy had a field day. He mentioned how I only get this way when I drink. I said, or rather slurred, "F**ck you and the white horse you rode in on" (I actually did say that, yee gods). We made up and slept but this morning I woke feeling just awful, horrible. Hung over wasn't the worst of it. Depressed, ashamed, toxic, tired, fretful, anxious. It's a gorgeous day outside and I have the blinds drawn hoping I can take enough various meds to put me too sleep (not permanently, don't you worry about that). I have a hard time relaxing into sleep in this state because I get jolted out of it by a feeling of shame or guilt that I should be up and about doing things, like tax stuff, that I really need to do, not sleeping off a drunk. I know better! I'm embarassed to face my husband and will have to endure my chagrin and the chill in the air between us for the next week.
Hopefully I've learned my lesson. Especially coming from such a happy, centered and optimistic place right before. The difference was amazing - Dr. Jekyll, Mrs. Hyde - and I'm grateful that the lesson was so obvious. I won't go to AA since I just don't relate to the philosphy. It's not like I do this frequently, only after I've been 'good' and think I can handle it. Most of the times I can, but there are the times when I can't stop and I have holes in my memory. I guess that's a sign of an 'alcohol problem'. But my guess is that any alcohol is a problem, at least for me. Even one glass of wine tips the scales for me and makes me depressed and thick. Even tho' it tasts so damned good, it's so elegant in those sparkly crystal glasses, and it can make me feel immediately festive and exhilliarated - or at least pick me up when I feel like shit. It may have something to do with the concentrated sugars as much as the intoxicating substances. I'm going to check out Rational Recovery. If anyone has any experience with that, please let me know.
So friends, I know a few of you mentioned you had a couple drinks a night or two before you went into a tail spin. Coincidence? I think not! Bartenders don't ask 'So, dearie, what's your poison?' for nothin' - Barbara
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 1, 2003, at 14:01:37
In reply to Re: Lamictal Survey » SUMMER2002, posted by Ima on August 31, 2003, at 22:07:58
Someone here asked for my story since we're sharing them. I'll get back to you on that one. It's too much for my fried brain at the moment. Right now I'm nursing an 'overindulgence' from last night and feel like warmed over dog turd. I wrote about it in Alcohol Sucks, cause it does.
I'd rather be out in the beautiful sunny day, but really, I'd rather it was a rainy foggy crappy day instead. So I'll amuse myself thinking about my life history while trying to snatch some zzzzz's, try to condense it because it's very convoluted, but I'll just give the salient points, like the time my father ran after me with a hatchet, and another when my brother broke a lamp over his head to stop him from kicking and choking me. A little teaser eh?, like a movie trailer. Maybe I'll work up a good cry in the process of recalling, and I can use one about now instead of feeling like a dumb lush when I KNOW what drinking does to me. Oh well, live and learn (I hope). - BCat
Posted by katia on September 1, 2003, at 15:52:42
In reply to Alcohol Sucks!, posted by BarbaraCat on September 1, 2003, at 13:45:17
Oh Barbara, we really are on the same same page darling.
I made a "pact" with my therapist to only have two drinks at a time. It's been working. I worked last night and had two drinks after work with the rest of the crowd. Love that merlot....
I came home like a good girl after two and found your lovely email about "friends finally...." and wrote you back this lonnnnggg post. I even said something about how I saw a bumper sticker on a car the other day and thought instantly of you. It said something like "good girls don't make history" or something. And I found the coincidence extremely funny that you should write about that sticker..etc...
I went on about transpersonal stuff etc.
and then bleep. it was gone just as I was sending it.
That did it. I went over the edge. I couldn't even cry. I could just moan and squirm in an agitated agony and tear at my skin with my fingernails and rip my hair out. Depakote hair loss? just kidding.
It went on for about an hour, I felt as tho' I wanted to drive a stake in between my legs and rip out all this agitation.
I proceeded to write my pdoc a four page letter and then CALLED him. and left some crazy message about how I was sending him a letter and I need to know if he authentically wants to be treating me. god knows what I said and how my voice sounded. I'M SOOOOOOO EMBARRASSED!!!!!!!!
I finally called a friend who came over and I drank two beers with him and smoked four cigs and "chatted" (dr. jekel mr. hyde) about how I thought I was similar to Seabiscuit. I keep thinking I'm a big horse not realizing that I'm really a small one and can't do so much in this life as I think I can.When he left I almost went to the post box and sent the letter along with a handful of my hair to my pdoc to get my point across. (what that point is now I have no idea). I just woke up cringing and pulling the covers over my face when I remembered that the psycho in me was let loose, not just in the confines of private home, but to public eye - namely my doctor. I'M SO EMBARRASSED!!! I still haven't read the letter yet. In my message I told him I'm leaving him this message so that I'll have to send the letter, I'll be accountable for it.
I called a friend when I woke up and she said "you just can't drink mate (from NZ), your too delicate". I'm going to cart you off to AA. And it's true. I'm extremely reactive/sensitive esp. now on Depakote. I shouldn't be drinking, not even one. Because that wonderful feeling after one seduces me and my judgement goes. Even if I stop after one or two, i"m still out of whack. It's just so hard with my job - restaurant work - to not have that end staff drink. I can't quit the job b/c I'm already drowning in debt.
anyway Barb honey, you're not alone today with your headache/guilt/dread/cringe on this gorgeous day!!
Katia
Posted by katia on September 1, 2003, at 16:00:23
In reply to Alcohol Sucks!, posted by BarbaraCat on September 1, 2003, at 13:45:17
Hi Barb,
Here's a link: http://www.rational.org/
I'm have no no idea about the philosophy. It may worth it. It may not.
It's so hard to remember that we don't have to celebrate "feeling good" and "life" with alcohol. Unfortunately, I think for both of us, it was our medication for so long, it's become a cellular habit.
hope you're not too hard on yourself.
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 1, 2003, at 16:29:59
In reply to Re: Alcohol Sucks! » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on September 1, 2003, at 16:00:23
Thanks, kiddo. I remember your post a while ago on Rational Recovery and, having heard of it myself many years ago, I found the site and spent most of the morning on it. It looks very very good, very different than AA whom they bash with undisguised glee. I tried AA oh, 15 or so years ago and just couldn't stand it. It reminded me of The Stepford Wives, only this was The Stepford Lushes with their cutesy slogans. It seems to help alot of people, but it wasn't for me. I'm committed to doing AVRT (Rational Recovery) which you can even go through on the website, or get the books and/or videos from the privacy of your home (while settling back with a Jack Daniels - no, just kidding). It has no meetings or sponsors. Going to a meeting has been a big problem for me because we live in a rural area which only has AA and everyone knows and gossips about each other, and damned if I'm going to be bumping into my neighbors at the grocery store after sharing 'Hi my name is Barbara and I'm not only a drunk, I'm depressed and bipolar and hate your stupid logging trucks, your 'family tree don't branch' kids, your evangelical horseshit churches - and you too - by the way!' Also, I only have a problem with yummy chardonnay so I never thought it was much a problem I couldn't control. But I sure have been buying that rich buttery brew by the cases lately.
Sorry about losing your post. I'm sure I got it through the ethers anyway. But I know how just one more thing can tip the scales and before you know it, whole tufts of hair on gouged out of your scalp. Been there.
I'm curious about your aversion to laying it on the line with your pdoc, like, Help me, Herr Doctor! I'm sure there's so much more to the story, but it seems like he isn't keeping an eye on you well enough during this crisis period. The best shrink I ever had actually called me a few times a week when I was adjusting to a new med or going through a really rough spell. He was a rare gem but it made a huge difference that he really cared about me and was there for me and besides, knew his stuff and knew how to twiddle so that my med adjustments were as painless as possible. I recall you mentioning that you had a bit of a crush on yours, so maybe this is getting in the way of wanting to appear less than attractive, or bothering him in any way?
But, in the meantime, your 'matey' is probably right about the drinking department. Sigh. It's such a lovely ritual to pass the time with friends having a colorful icy drink, getting silly, bonding. If I could only hold it to one drink and only once a week I'd really be OK. But one always turns to two, etc. - Barbara
> Hi Barb,
> Here's a link: http://www.rational.org/
> I'm have no no idea about the philosophy. It may worth it. It may not.
> It's so hard to remember that we don't have to celebrate "feeling good" and "life" with alcohol. Unfortunately, I think for both of us, it was our medication for so long, it's become a cellular habit.
> hope you're not too hard on yourself.
> Katia
Posted by katia on September 1, 2003, at 17:03:33
In reply to Re: Alcohol Sucks! » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 1, 2003, at 16:29:59
Hi Barb,
I think my aversion comes from years of trying to put on a face and hide this "wacky/crazy" part of me. I know it's crazy, b/c he's a psychiatrist!!!!! But the aversion has a mind of its own. I"m just standing by watching on one level. I always downplay what I feel b/c I forget when I get into his formal office and have to report on symptoms, and I don't want to "overreact", when in reality it's reality - no overreaction. my reaction/aversion is actually surprising me and showing me a lot about how I work. I don't show myself, I don't show myself, I hide, play roles, and then WHAM! I gush and spill over and scream to be seen for who I am damnit! I want to show me and be understood - it's often a waterfall of showing who I am rather than a gradually process. And I have an inkling this is what was going on last night with my letter writing.Also, as I said above, I'm so accumstomed to even self-denial and hiding of this - this - oh, moodiness? that even when called to show up it's having a hard time coming out. ONly family and boyfriends and some close friends have really seen all sides of me and get just how much I go thru'. And more than one, no make that more than two, boyfriends have said that I'm too much for them to handle. So I get frightened and pull back inside.
It's interesting how it's playing out with my pdoc. I think he'll get the hint now that he's going to witness me in "action" tomorrow morning when he comes in and retrieves his messages.And the crush i had on him is not really a crush. It's just me playing fantasy games as usual. So I'm not sure if that is part of it.
thanks for asking.
and BTW, even when you're hungover, you're hysterical (as in funny - ha ha)!
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 1, 2003, at 19:01:43
In reply to Aversions run deep » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on September 1, 2003, at 17:03:33
How much to divulge about one's demons is really a dilemma. Friends and partners can take only so much and they have they're own crap to deal with. You sure can't 'fess that you're having emotional problems at work. They start looking at you more closely, you're considered a potential problem, treated differently. If we let it rip and have a breakdown or really need help because we've become 'basket-cases', that's how we're remembered from then on. People remember the drama, not the day-to-day 'I'm really OK' stuff. You get subtly branded as unstable and that's how you're regarded. There's a certain dignity that's lost forever when you lose your dignity even once. I'm not talking about the true hearbreaks in life that everyone can relate to. This is the woo-woo stuff we on this board know so well, but would seem CRAAAAZZZYYYYY to the uninitiated. It's scary to them and to the many pdocs who have never in their lives ever ventured there. They study pills and behavior, not raw emotions and agonized need.
Even best friends will probably talk to other good friends, who will also talk to their friends, about the time you came over and sobbed and vomited on their kitchen floor (that would be me). And you'll be the topic of a few amusing tales. Nothing malicious, but you'll again be subtly branded and type-cast as someone who is a bit dotty and probably should not watch your kids.
Or they'll never really forgive you for that time you were beyond irritable and said something very cutting and wounding. Sometimes it brings people closer if they can really talk about it, share mutually, forgive, find true compassion.
But most people are truly afraid of the really dark despairing stuff. I think this applies to therapists as well, unless the therapy is specifically cathartic in nature. Those folks can take it and revel in it. Perhaps this is what your anxiety and anguish need. You need your pdoc because of the med thing, but I'll bet cathartic body work or breath release work would help you (me too) alot right now. You talk about the cellular stuff. Yes, there it is, deep down.
Boy, I sure do know about expenses, cause body/breath workers don't come cheap. But I really think your reticence about showing, exposing your 'other side' is valid. Most people just can't or don't want to deal with it. It's so lonely but we have to be discerning in who we introduce our wounded wild mares to. Jesus said 'Don't cast your pearls before swine', and I think this applies as well to psychiatrists who don't want to smell even the hint of horse shit. They aren't trained that way anymore. And yet, those are the times we really need to talk to someone, to trust someone to help us. Glad we have each other. - Barbara
Posted by SUMMER2002 on September 1, 2003, at 19:19:46
In reply to Aversions run deep » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on September 1, 2003, at 17:03:33
Hi Ladies and/or Gents:
I am really getting alot out of these posts. Here are my two cents worth. One on drinking the other on transference (spelling? - can't get the spell check to work). My first meeting with my pdoc he discussed transference and how he can/will become many different things to me as I
share my experiences. This has truly been the case and I had a crush on my old pdoc who never explained transference.Anyway,like many of you I also try to act as normal as possible during the session and downplay my extreme emotions that have occurred over the last week/two weeks/ or sometimes days.
I have emailed my pdoc 4 times in the last 5 days. I've been up and down way too much. One email said ignore the last email because I was in a bad mood when I wrote it. How does someone ignore an email??!! But that was the way I really felt at the time. He called my today after reading all my emails. Did I mention that he had me transcribe the entire last session with him because he was sure I was drifting off - he was, of course, right. He asked me many questions on the phone today which I dutiful answered with yes and no --- no comments. I was a bit surprised that he felt he had to call on Labor Day - but appreciative. I promised to run next meeting and try to talk the whole session. This should be interesting. By the way I did a web search on transference and found some very interesting and enlightening information. Sorry I can't remember the specific site but just do a web search and you should be able to find some sites.
Drinking for me has been a fiasco. I am a binge drinker. When I'm down I have a couple go home and life is good. When I'm up, I drink until there is nothing left to drink. When other people drink they get tired after two or three. At three drinks I kick in and ready to go until the wee hours of the morning. It has caused me so many problems. And I am darn lucky I've never gotten a DUI. I also promised my old pdoc only to have two - but on good nights that has never lasted. Another comment - I may be the only one that loves a hangover. When I was especially bad - racing thoughts and high energy I loved hangovers. It was the only thing that would shut my brain down. It hurt to think and I loved it. I love hangovers when I'm spazzing out. But unfortunately I start to remember all the things I said and did that night before (or what I said and did when I can't remember)and just want to dig another hole and climb in. I've been very good lately and just avoid it all.
Four or five years ago (before I was diagnosed)I was talking with a client. She mentioned that her Significant Other self medicated with alcohal. The light bulb went on and I realized --Oh my gosh that's what I'm doing.
That's all for now folks.Patricia
Posted by Ima on September 1, 2003, at 23:58:59
In reply to Re: Aversions run deep » katia, posted by SUMMER2002 on September 1, 2003, at 19:19:46
She mentioned that her Significant Other self medicated with alcohal. The light bulb went on and I realized --Oh my gosh that's what I'm doing.
>
> That's all for now folks.> Patricia
I think the self medicating aspects of drugs and alcohol was a real revelation for me as well.
Ive also come to a point where I realize that the way I coped when I knew no other way, and when my exixtence was jsut to painful to bear, was drugs and alcohol.Bcat, when you were happy, do you think there was something else that made you want that first drink?
For me ,I think happiness scares me sometimes. I dont trust it.
I think people like us feel secure in the knowledge that pain is a plateua we can not fall from.
It doesnt betray us.
We know it so well.peace
Ima
Posted by delna on September 2, 2003, at 1:48:24
In reply to Lamictal Survey, posted by Ima on August 31, 2003, at 12:50:17
hi all
lamactil really changed my life. on 200mg a day i am stable enough to 'live'. still not working but getting more resposible for myself and curbing rash outbursts. have been on it since june and ofcourse i dohave break through symptoms like heavy anxiety and rare suicidal thoughts- but i cant bear taking any more meds. i am grateful for the existing results
i am also on wellbutrin 200mg and effexor 75mg.
i suffered from mixed states and rapid cycling and lamactil has really helped. however my pdoc wanted to increse my dose to 300mg, which i did and at this doesi was in an awful state. back to anger, aggression etc. others wondered what was suddenly happening. back down at 200mg - things are back to the good days of normalacy and relative stability.
hope this helps
good luck
d
Posted by katia on September 2, 2003, at 1:55:27
In reply to Re: Aversions run deep » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 1, 2003, at 19:01:43
glad we have each other too.
>>It's so lonely but we have to be discerning in who we introduce our wounded wild mares to. Jesus said 'Don't cast your pearls before swine',
I love it.
Katia
Posted by katia on September 2, 2003, at 2:03:50
In reply to Re: Aversions run deep » katia, posted by SUMMER2002 on September 1, 2003, at 19:19:46
Hi Patricia,
>>I have emailed my pdoc 4 times in the last 5 days. I've been up and down way too much. One email said ignore the last email because I was in a bad mood when I wrote it. How does someone ignore an email??!! But that was the way I really felt at the time. He called my today after reading all my emails. Did I mention that he had me transcribe the entire last session with him because he was sure I was drifting off - he was, of course, right. He asked me many questions on the phone today which I dutiful answered with yes and no --- no comments. I was a bit surprised that he felt he had to call on Labor Day - but appreciative. I promised to run next meeting and try to talk the whole session. This should be interesting. By the way I did a web search on transference and found some very interesting and enlightening information. Sorry I can't remember the specific site but just do a web search and you should be able to find some sites.
Wow! Four times in five days? Thanks for sharing that. I've been cringing all day long at the thought that I left some wacky message on my pdoc machine and still haven't re-read that four page letter I wrote!? I suppose it's not so uncommon. I bet it's nice to know that s/he calls you back! I can't wait to talk with my pdoc. I don't think that 500mg of Depakote is a good dose for me. IT was a long weekend, as you know and he was away. But he did leave his pager number; I just haven't been able to use it yet. All I can say is thank god he hasn't given me his email address! It's only been recently that I'm even able to pick up the phone and call a friend when I'm in a bad way. I've been such a loner dealing with this madness.
You say "way up and way down"; what meds are you on? Oh, my other question, is your pdoc your "talk" therapist as well? That could be a different story. Mine is medication only related. I have a different therapist.
thanks for sharing some of your story.
Katia
Posted by Caleb96 on September 2, 2003, at 12:10:53
In reply to Alcohol Sucks!, posted by BarbaraCat on September 1, 2003, at 13:45:17
Dear BarbCat:
Unfortunately alcohol does suck for a lot of us. My 79 year-old dad can have his ONE martini before dinner every night. He's been doing that for close to 60 years. In my 45 years, I've never seen him drunk or out of control. He still works, not because he has to, but because he enjoys it. He's never had health problems, lost his house, family or a job, had a DUI, or ruined a friendship because of alcohol. He can drink because he can control his intake.
As for his son--myself--he can't touch the stuff. About five years ago, I was rushed to the hospital with excruciating abdominal pain. Twenty years of heavy, steadily increasing alcohol consumption--starting in college--had finally caught up with me. I thought I DESERVED to drink because of all the stress I had to deal with on the job.
At the hospital, they ran all the blood chem tests, took x-rays, did ultrasound on my gall bladder, even did a colonoscopy. I still remember the ER doctor squinting at my x-ray--trying hard to find an explanation for my unbearable pain. My wife sat beside me in tears, holding my hand as if she was about to lose me for good. Finally the test results came back. Everything was normal except some slightly elevated enzymes. I could see the doctor still pacing up and down the freshly polished hallway, still holding my x-ray up to the fluorescent lights.
Finally, he walked back into my small examining room. "Do you drink?", he asked.
"Yes", I sheepishly said.
"How much?"
"Probably too much," I answered, dreading what I knew was coming next. How will I ever get through life without alcohol?, I thought to myself.
"On average, how much would you say you drink in a week?", the doctor asked.
I responded, "about a bottle of wine a day." This was definitely a under-estimate when you consider all the bottles of extra stout beer and 86 proof scotch I kept hidden in my basement workshop. There was also the half-gallon of 100 proof Vodka I kept in the kitchen liquor cabinet. A good stiff shot of that in between glasses of wine or beer really hit the spot. I'd be flying. No more problems to worry about!
Or so I thought.
"Mr. C-----," said the doctor, "what you have is an acute case of pancreatitis, and I'm pretty sure in your case it was brought on by chronic, heavy alcohol intake. Now, pancreatitis is--as I'm sure you're aware--generally considered one of the top ten most painful medical conditions. It's your pancreas literally digesting itself. For reasons we're not totally sure of, chronic alcohol consumption can trigger your pancreas to release its digestive enzymes within the organ itself."
Of course, I knew this all too well since I was finishing my PhD in nutrition. My God, I should have known better I thought to myself!
He continued, "In about 10% of the cases, it's fatal. Now, you're still young and in relatively good health. We treat cases like yours by giving IV fluids, painkillers, and withholding food until your pancreas has a chance to heal itself. Fortunately in your case, you should be better in a day or two."
"But"--he added--"if you continue to drink this problem will recur, and each time it will be more painful and more damaging, until...well, there just won't be anything we'll be able to do for you. Statistically, from the time a person is first hospitalized due to alcohol, if they continue to drink, their life expectancy is 15 years."
"You have a beautiful wife who loves you very much, and you can have a long, full life--but you have to stop drinking."That was probaly the best advice anyone has ever given me. And I took it.
At first, I went to a few AA meetings, but I found that I couldn't really relate to all the tragic experiences these people had gone through. It just wasn't for me. But I would never put it down because it does help many people. I found it was just easier for me to quit and not think about it. If I'm at a party and someone tries to give me a drink, I just tell them I don't drink. If they get too pushy, I'll tell them I'm an alcoholic. It's not something I'm ashamed of. I would be ashamed if I still drank.
So that's my story. I can't tell you how many months, days, hours, etc. I've been sober. That kind of trivia is irrelevant to me. I can only tell you I'm much happier and healthier since I made the decision to be sober for life.
So good luck on your quest to sobriety. You recognize you have a problem and that's the most important start. Now figure out what route you want to take to kick alcohol for good. You can do it.
Best wishes--Caleb
Posted by KimberlyDi on September 2, 2003, at 12:44:40
In reply to Re: Alcohol Sucks!, posted by Caleb96 on September 2, 2003, at 12:10:53
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 2, 2003, at 12:55:17
In reply to Re: Alcohol Sucks!, posted by Caleb96 on September 2, 2003, at 12:10:53
Thanks so much for your story, Caleb. Wow, the pancreas digesting itself! That is scary. I binge, thankfully not very frequently, but enough to know that I have a problem. I also have a few bottles strategically placed in the garage (my husband hates it when I uncork one so I usually open them in the garage so he doesn't hear). I don't much like hard liquor so it's not a problem for me. One is plenty, although that will have to go as well. It's only chardonnay whose taste I love, and whose buzz gets me off the most. There must be some allergenic substance in it.
I'm so otherwise committed to my quest for spiritual, physical and mental health, but keep derailing it with the drinking. Here it is, two days later and I'm still feeling burnt out and weepy and creepy. Alcohol lets in some dark heavy energy and I still feel like I'm brushing clingons and cobwebs off me.
I've rediscovered Rational Recovery (rational.org) and am very fascinated with the philosophy. So far I've done the on-line program (real quick and dirty) and feel it's worked, or at least working. I'm really committed to shaking this Beast off my back.
But your story really put the icing on the cake. Phew! Really points out how booze is a POISON. I see these street people - young, too - with obvious liver cirhosis looking like the walking dead and can't imagine how like hell they must feel. Ima on this thread asked what was it about feeling so happy and good prior to my starting to drink the other night that made me start drinking. That is a very good question and one I am going to spend some time thinking about.
Anyhow, congrats on your seeing the light and sticking with your resolve. - Barbara
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 2, 2003, at 13:15:05
In reply to Re: Aversions run deep » SUMMER2002, posted by Ima on September 1, 2003, at 23:58:59
Ima,
> Bcat, when you were happy, do you think there was something else that made you want that first drink?**That is a very good question and has gotten me thinking. Why wasn't the happy, light, playful and peaceful feeling I was enjoying enough for me? That opened bottle in the fridge was calling, calling to me, like a Siren's song. I knew I'd feel less than great the next morning. I always do and ALWAYS wish I hadn't had even that one teeny drink cause I feel so THICK in the morning with even one. But I guess I wanted the festive carefree feeling to continue and - hey, yes, here it is. It was definitely a yearning for that hypomanic buzzzzzzz. The sweet, happy joyful pure feeling was so nice, so sweet, but there was another little demon that got woken up, maybe by some passing good feeling molecule, that wanted MORE!!!! FEED MEEEE!!! The promise of that rush, that buzz, that transcendent ecstatic high state that I think we BP's are so familiar with, was too tempting, especially with that dang bottle calling from the fridge 'yooo hoooo, Barbara, this is OK but wanna feel REALLY good? Wanna see God?!!'
There must be some kindling from dopamine or some other chemical no matter why it is we feel good that sets off memories of feeling good in a more cataclysmic dramatic scale. For me, it's wanting more and more and more. I'm a 'wild' junkie, I want the wild experience. The peaceful easy feeling is fine for my healthy self, but the destructive lurking little demon in me wants WILD!! There's a definite manic component to it, but somehow I'm seeing into it a little more clearly than just random chemistry. I'm yearning for transcendence. I know there's a book about this very thing by Christina Groff and I think it's time I read it.
Thanks for your question, Ima. It's really got me thinking.
Barbara
Posted by katia on September 2, 2003, at 15:13:42
In reply to The alcohol demon » Ima, posted by BarbaraCat on September 2, 2003, at 13:15:05
Hi Barb,
Yes, I too am still shaking cobwebs off. Ima's question has been a question I've asked myself over the years. And that led me to that other statement/question I asked you. Why do we want to celebrate happiness and joy with alcohol? I have that very same "dilemma". When I feel good, I then want to celebrate. I'm trying to understand that aspect. is good to good for me? I also really wonder if it's not a manic aspect - as you referenced in your previous post. I think that plays a part in it. And I have my two sides exactly as you described - the healthy one has been gaining ground over the years, but that demon sometimes gets control and we are in for a very wild ride. That's another role I am hoping meds can play - taming the demon. I've been trying to do it for years to no real success - just baby steps. Glad rational recovery is doing it for you.
yesterday was a zombie day for me - you know. today I'm really thickheaded and down. I should be talking with my pdoc today. Im not sure that 500mg of Dep. is doing it. I either need to raise the level or abandon it I think.
Katia
Posted by KimberlyDi on September 2, 2003, at 17:24:51
In reply to Re: Alcohol Sucks! » Caleb96, posted by BarbaraCat on September 2, 2003, at 12:55:17
When it comes to alcohol, success can lead to failure. Ironic, isn't it? 10 months sober and enjoying life, made tons of progress, and have everything under control... Hey, I *deserve* a drink. Sure, I had a problem in the past, but I'm *better* now. Over-confidence, thinking the road to recovery is now a speedy 4-lane highway, when in reality, it's a tightrope and always will be one. I think we all long to be normal again. I envy the social drinker.
just my 10 cents worth on the subject
KDi in Texas
Posted by SUMMER2002 on September 2, 2003, at 17:28:49
In reply to Re: Aversions run deep » SUMMER2002, posted by katia on September 2, 2003, at 2:03:50
> Hi Patricia,
>
> >>I have emailed my pdoc 4 times in the last 5 days. I've been up and down way too much. One email said ignore the last email because I was in a bad mood when I wrote it. How does someone ignore an email??!! But that was the way I really felt at the time. He called my today after reading all my emails. Did I mention that he had me transcribe the entire last session with him because he was sure I was drifting off - he was, of course, right. He asked me many questions on the phone today which I dutiful answered with yes and no --- no comments. I was a bit surprised that he felt he had to call on Labor Day - but appreciative. I promised to run next meeting and try to talk the whole session. This should be interesting. By the way I did a web search on transference and found some very interesting and enlightening information. Sorry I can't remember the specific site but just do a web search and you should be able to find some sites.
>
> Wow! Four times in five days? Thanks for sharing that. I've been cringing all day long at the thought that I left some wacky message on my pdoc machine and still haven't re-read that four page letter I wrote!? I suppose it's not so uncommon. I bet it's nice to know that s/he calls you back! I can't wait to talk with my pdoc. I don't think that 500mg of Depakote is a good dose for me. IT was a long weekend, as you know and he was away. But he did leave his pager number; I just haven't been able to use it yet. All I can say is thank god he hasn't given me his email address! It's only been recently that I'm even able to pick up the phone and call a friend when I'm in a bad way. I've been such a loner dealing with this madness.
> You say "way up and way down"; what meds are you on? Oh, my other question, is your pdoc your "talk" therapist as well? That could be a different story. Mine is medication only related. I have a different therapist.
> thanks for sharing some of your story.
> KatiaKatia,
Yes, he is both therapist and med pdoc. My last arrangement was with therapist with pdoc for meds only - that's how I ended up on abilify which was totally wrong for me.
Good Luck - and if he gave you pager number use it! He gave it to you for a reason.
Patricia
Posted by KimberlyDi on September 2, 2003, at 17:32:07
In reply to The alcohol demon » Ima, posted by BarbaraCat on September 2, 2003, at 13:15:05
Very nicely put! Alcohol affects dopamine, the reward area of the brain. Imagine when a person is drinking him/herself to death, and the brain is telling him/her to continue. I read once where someone talked about alcoholics having very low dopamine levels, starting from birth. So that the first time they drink, it's the first time they ever feel normal. That struck a chord with me. I love to dance, but I can't dance sober. It takes a few drinks for me to be able to *feel* the music.
Enough for now, I'm going home.
KDi in Texas
Ima,
> > Bcat, when you were happy, do you think there was something else that made you want that first drink?
>
> **That is a very good question and has gotten me thinking. Why wasn't the happy, light, playful and peaceful feeling I was enjoying enough for me? That opened bottle in the fridge was calling, calling to me, like a Siren's song. I knew I'd feel less than great the next morning. I always do and ALWAYS wish I hadn't had even that one teeny drink cause I feel so THICK in the morning with even one. But I guess I wanted the festive carefree feeling to continue and - hey, yes, here it is. It was definitely a yearning for that hypomanic buzzzzzzz. The sweet, happy joyful pure feeling was so nice, so sweet, but there was another little demon that got woken up, maybe by some passing good feeling molecule, that wanted MORE!!!! FEED MEEEE!!! The promise of that rush, that buzz, that transcendent ecstatic high state that I think we BP's are so familiar with, was too tempting, especially with that dang bottle calling from the fridge 'yooo hoooo, Barbara, this is OK but wanna feel REALLY good? Wanna see God?!!'
>
> There must be some kindling from dopamine or some other chemical no matter why it is we feel good that sets off memories of feeling good in a more cataclysmic dramatic scale. For me, it's wanting more and more and more. I'm a 'wild' junkie, I want the wild experience. The peaceful easy feeling is fine for my healthy self, but the destructive lurking little demon in me wants WILD!! There's a definite manic component to it, but somehow I'm seeing into it a little more clearly than just random chemistry. I'm yearning for transcendence. I know there's a book about this very thing by Christina Groff and I think it's time I read it.
>
> Thanks for your question, Ima. It's really got me thinking.
>
> Barbara
>
Posted by SUMMER2002 on September 2, 2003, at 17:33:24
In reply to Re: Aversions run deep, posted by SUMMER2002 on September 2, 2003, at 17:28:49
just trying to see how to get name on post - still new at this posting business.
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 2, 2003, at 19:44:17
In reply to Re: The alcohol demon » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on September 2, 2003, at 15:13:42
I believe Kimberly nailed it - it's called Dopamine. Dopamine delivers the pleasure reward feeling by providing a nice little buzz. It's what gets released in speed, in cocaine, in alcohol, in falling in love, in sex. It's implicated in craving of most any kind, so it would figure that once we start getting that feel good chemical, we just want more, and when we don't have enough, we just want more. Your question is intriguing, if I understand it right. Given that happiness sets up a craving more cycle, is happiness really good for us? I think we just want to feel better no matter what, but when is 'better' or 'good' good enough?
I think about the words of spiritual teachers whose wisdom I think alot of. They say that misery and happiness are polar ends of the same continuum and each in it's own way is as disruptive and unpeaceful as the other. Happiness feels better, to be sure, but it's never enough. The object of our happiness soon pales and there's always more dopamine to be made. The grasping upward spiral ultimately spins out of control and creates as much instability as the opposite unhappy end of the pole. We hate unhappy. We love happy. It's the repulsion/attraction spin of these polar opposites that creats a psychic field, magnetic even, that keeps us entrapped in the running after your tail mindlessness of insanity. It's not happiness but a joyful peace that is the goal, a state that is content with whatever is in the now, a non-craving place in the heart of all creation, the Centerpoint. I used to think "How dull!" but after being there a few times, I'd rather live there than anywhere. Happiness feels a bit giddy, out of control, as opposed to the calm centered place that knows the clear joy in all states of being. Ah, sounds so nice!
Wish I could get there and stay there without getting hung over or otherwise burnt out. Lord knows I try and wish the hell it would stick. But that's just my craving talking. Dopamine, that overlooked neurochemical. We need a new drug! Back to the meditation cusion for me. - Barbara
> Hi Barb,
> Yes, I too am still shaking cobwebs off. Ima's question has been a question I've asked myself over the years. And that led me to that other statement/question I asked you. Why do we want to celebrate happiness and joy with alcohol? I have that very same "dilemma". When I feel good, I then want to celebrate. I'm trying to understand that aspect. is good to good for me? I also really wonder if it's not a manic aspect - as you referenced in your previous post. I think that plays a part in it. And I have my two sides exactly as you described - the healthy one has been gaining ground over the years, but that demon sometimes gets control and we are in for a very wild ride. That's another role I am hoping meds can play - taming the demon. I've been trying to do it for years to no real success - just baby steps. Glad rational recovery is doing it for you.
> yesterday was a zombie day for me - you know. today I'm really thickheaded and down. I should be talking with my pdoc today. Im not sure that 500mg of Dep. is doing it. I either need to raise the level or abandon it I think.
> Katia
Posted by katia on September 2, 2003, at 20:48:15
In reply to Re: The alcohol demon » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 2, 2003, at 19:44:17
yes, I'm aware of these spiritual teachings and desires, cravings, etc.
And the more you have the more you want and the less you have the less you desire/crave etc.It's not asking too much. Simply, I want contentment.
I've heard of the dopamine thing and alcohol before too. I could use a glass of dopamine now.
I talked to my pdoc today and we are upping the Depakote. I feel very sleepy tho' and low energy to be taking it in the day. And I feel that black cloud descending. it's scary b/c, not sure if a lightening storm of the history is about to happen or will it blow over. Trying to decide if what I"m going thru' is mixed or depressed or BOTH and what will happen with the upping of the Depakote.
I see him in a few days so time will tell.
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 2, 2003, at 21:44:59
In reply to Re: The alcohol demon » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on September 2, 2003, at 20:48:15
Have you tried phenylalanine? Supposed to be the precursor to dopamine. I'm not sure which form, the D or the L has the dopamine enhancing effect. I just remembered it, have some in my cabinet and will do an experiment. If it throws me into hypomania then so be it, as long as I can ride that wave and not get hungover or pay any other stinkin' piper for the pleasure.
Posted by katia on September 2, 2003, at 22:11:45
In reply to A glass of dopamine » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 2, 2003, at 21:44:59
NO I haven't. And you? Why do you have some in your cabinet? Let me know what happens....
I upped my Dep. today and I'm knocked out. sluggish, exhausted - like before when I was taking it during the day. I don't think this will work to take it during the day. I'll give it 'til tomorrow.
k.
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