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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by BarbaraCat on August 27, 2003, at 18:25:53
In reply to basket-case in a wave-pool, posted by fluffy on August 27, 2003, at 12:26:35
Good luck with lithium, Katy!!! I hope and pray it works for you as well as for me. It may take 2-3 weeks, but for me, I noticed a diff in 3 days. A note on the tremors. I got them very mildly at first on lithium and then they subsided. When I started nortriptyline, they REALLY came on like gangbusters. I couldn't even put in my contact lenses and my handwriting went to hell in a 'hand basket' (there's that basket thing again). The tremors subsided somewhat but it was only after stopping the nortriptyline that they went away completely. I was concerned at first that it was the lithium and that I'd have to reconsider taking it, because my fine motor skills were shot to hell (in a hand-basket), but I'm relieved that it wasn't the fault of lithium. I got some frequent peeing spells at first and some other annoying side effects that I can't remember. I think I felt nauseous at first, so I take it with or after a meal. Oh yeah, my hair felt weird at first, wouldn't hold haircoloring, and got very curly which it never was before! I'm now back to thick and wavy and normal. How strange! I kinda liked the curly! I also use extra sea salt as recommended because it gets excreted with increased urine and salt also benefits lithium's nerve conduction.
I'd encourage you to play around with subtherapeutic doses if you can. My pdoc subscribed 900mg for me, but I found it to be too much and too zombie-like, even though I was in the low end of the therapeutic window. I think lithium acts as a synergistic potentiator with other meds so the party line on dosing may not be accurate when you're taking something like lamictal. Again, good luck, Fluffsters! - Barbara
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 27, 2003, at 19:03:57
In reply to Re: Cortisol/Sugar Connection - Thanks BCat! » Barbara Cat, posted by Ron Hill on August 27, 2003, at 15:42:44
Hi Ron,
Yeah, I think most of us were in that low fat, high complex carbs camp and tried diligently to follow it. I never really could. I suscribe more to the 'food as a vehicle for butter and whipped cream' philosophy. And eggs without the yolk? Never! So I was always a rebel when it came to that, even though I feared I was fatally clogging up my arteries. Even though I always ate well and hardly ever any junk food, I always slathered on the butter and oil. I eventually said 'hell with it, it doesn't seem to be hurting Julia Childs' and am glad I followed my intuition and taste buds.My sister-in-law, however, who I'm convinced has body dysmorphic condition, has been anal about fat for around 10 years now. She even uses no-fat 1/2 and 1/2 in her coffee. What a weird concept! Yes, she's thin, but she's starting to look like beef jerky, her face is dry and lined, her hair is dry and she's got some very definite harpy qualities that could use some good Omega 3s. Her son, who has also been the low, no fat recepient of her diet, has got ADD and other learning disabilities. When I last saw her, she peered at me and said 'Barbara, you're almost 6 years older than me. You're supposed to have worse skin than me. How come your skin looks so good?' and I said "Two words: lotsa fat". I've sinced balanced my protein after reading Barry Sears' books and follow a close version of The Zone diet. But I WILL have real whipped cream on my strawberries and that is that!
I really recommend you get "Lights Out" by Wiley as I mentioned previously. I'm re-reading it and wow! does it make sense. They explain the reasoning behind carb/cortisol metabolism from an evolutionary and neurological standpoint that is helping me to understand WHY rather than to just follow a lifestyle and diet because it seems to makes sense.
About addictions: I love Mark Twain's analogy of bad habits and addictions as ballast. He says if we have no bad habits to get rid of it's like being on a sinking ship with no ballast to throw overboard - you're screwed. But I think that eating high carbs late at night will cause the ship to sink anyway due to our fat selves being on board. - Barbara
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 27, 2003, at 21:22:39
In reply to BARB!, Naturopath visit results, please read, posted by McPac on August 26, 2003, at 21:17:11
Deseryl and Trazadone are one and the same. I had to take 150mg to get an AD effect. Most docs stop at 50mg. I don't think it would be the best first line defense, but might be better than something like Buspar to control anxiety. But clonazapam would be my first choice. I can't even remember how many mornings I stumbled into work late because of traz hangover.
Remeron at 45mg is when I started feeling anxiety and unbalance. The NE effect that kicks in that level is pretty harsh. I'd put money on the possibility that this is what's contributing to your irritability. Why Remeron? I was a devoted fan for a while, but eventually dropped it like a hot potato. I clung on to it at 15mg for a few months after starting lithium and still felt icky. Someone on this board said 'just stop taking it, cold turkey'. I did. It was the easiest med to quit and I felt better almost immediately. I'm one of those classic cases who can't take SSRI's or their analogs because of the BP. Maybe there's another med that would work better for you. I just have a bad feeling about Remeron. It sure made me feel jittery once I got to 45mg. Here's a site I found on OCD and meds:
http://www.ocfoundation.org/ocf1050a.htm
You originally asked about BPI vs. BPII. Of course, BPI is more severe, that goes without question. I'm not sure if it's just a matter of degrees of symptoms or not. BPII is characterized by occasional hypomania but primarily depression that doesn't get better with SSRI's. BPI's have psychosis and frequent manias. If there are mixed states involved, BPI's are much more severe and hallucinogenic than BPIIs. There's a definite psychosis present. You might already be familiar with this website, but I think he's got the best BP info around:
http://www.psycheducation.com/depression/frameset.html
If I were you, here's what I'd do. I'd go back to your former dose of lithium, 600mg wasn't it? I'd take clonazepam, low dose, 3x a day for 2-3 weeks to break the anxiety cycle. I personally didn't get addicted to it at all and was able to take it when needed after that 3 week loading. I'd try to find some other med than Remeron. Perhaps you've tried others and this is the best one so far? Maybe it will be OK once you calm the anxiety with clonazapam. Maybe the lithium will calm things down. But I'm tellin' ya, Remeron is a strange one and there's got to be something else out there for you.
About Primal Defense. I'm about at 6 of those teeny little measures a day. I think it's helping cause I'm not feeling so toxic, but I sure wish I could poop a whole lot more. I thought PD was going to help with that. Oh well, irritable bowel syndrome is just one of those things that comes with fibromyalgia. As I get better, my plumbing will improve. PD is helping out in the meantime. My naturopath recommends it and if it's good enough for her, then by golly, it must be good. How about you? - Barbara
Posted by katia on August 27, 2003, at 22:14:14
In reply to Re: BARB!, Naturopath visit results, please read » McPac, posted by BarbaraCat on August 27, 2003, at 21:22:39
Hi Barb,
I'll let you know how it goes for me next week with the metabolic testing. It might be something that could be helpful to you. People have claimed "miracles" from this and it's mainly about diet/nutrition. I left the website earlier. Have a look at it. Also, if you want to follow up on that career topic, just click on the link from Dr. Bob and I'll chat with you there too. It's pretty interchangeable, not so divided as you probably think.
Katia
Posted by McPac on August 27, 2003, at 23:23:25
In reply to Re: BARB!, Naturopath visit results, please read » McPac, posted by BarbaraCat on August 27, 2003, at 21:22:39
Remeron at 45mg is when I started feeling anxiety and unbalance. The NE effect that kicks in that level is pretty harsh. I'd put money on the possibility that this is what's contributing to your irritability.
>>>>>>>>>>> Oh yeah! Up to 30 mg of Rem I can handle---though at 30mg I don't quite get enough mood-lift and it does squat it seems for anxiety (just seems WEAK at that dose).....but at 45 mg, that stupid NE kicks in, I get angry and irritable and somewhat agitated.....45 mg is too activating for me.....maybe that energetic, activating stuff is great for some folks, NOT me it seems!
Why Remeron?>>>>>>>>>>>> Only because it is one of a VERY few non-ssri AD's that has worked for OCD for some folks. At low-doses I love it...that higher dose-NE effect ruins it for me!). I don't get as many side effects at all from Rem (except at 45mg!!)....but it just seems too weak at 30mg...for me anyway.
I was a devoted fan for a while, but eventually dropped it like a hot potato. I clung on to it at 15mg for a few months after starting lithium and still felt icky.
>>>>>>>>>> Rem at 7.5 mg makes a GREAT sleep aid.
Someone on this board said 'just stop taking it, cold turkey'. I did. It was the easiest med to quit and I felt better almost immediately.
>>>>>>>> Yes, it is easier and quicker to quit.
I'm one of those classic cases who can't take SSRI's or their analogs because of the BP.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Barb, it seems that some meds I CAN handle well at lower-moderate doses (but they're usually not totally effective there) YET those same meds, when I hit certain slightly higher dose levels, cause the anger/irrit/agitation.........it seems to me that the anger/irrit/agit comes out when those meds hit a certain activation level....like Zoloft, at 50 mg I'm okay, but 75 mg starts the anger....Remeron, 30 mg ok, 45 mg, ANGER....same w/ other meds....it's like a certain activation level is reached and then whammo! along w/ that increased activation comes the nasty effects....does that make sense? Seems like there's got to be some psychiatric term for that? (they've got a term for everything else, lol)
Maybe there's another med that would work better for you. I just have a bad feeling about Remeron. It sure made me feel jittery once I got to 45mg. Here's a site I found on OCD and meds:
http://www.ocfoundation.org/ocf1050a.htm
>>>>>>>>>>> The OCFoundation! I used to belong to that....glad to see that site again!
You originally asked about BPI vs. BPII. Of course, BPI is more severe, that goes without question. I'm not sure if it's just a matter of degrees of symptoms or not. BPII is characterized by occasional hypomania but primarily depression that doesn't get better with SSRI's.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Barb, I'm definitely primarily depressed w/ the occassional mini-highs ....... yet the ssri's work GREAT (but I took the ssri's with low-dose lith....don't think I'd do well w/ssri without lith.......so does that sound more like bp2?......never had the psychotic symptoms......the lows get unbelievably low though (w/out meds)....... have had TERRIBLE anxiety mixed together w/ lows before........still sound more bp2?
BPI's have psychosis and frequent manias. If there are mixed states involved, BPI's are much more severe and hallucinogenic than BPIIs. There's a definite psychosis present.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can someone be bp1 even if they've NEVER had the psychotic part?
You might already be familiar with this website, but I think he's got the best BP info around:
http://www.psycheducation.com/depression/frameset.html
Thanks!
If I were you, here's what I'd do. I'd go back to your former dose of lithium, 600mg wasn't it?
>>>>>>>>>> Yep, 600 mg lith does the trick! Could probably get by w/ 450 too but I've restarted the 600 already (Barb---does such a low lith dosage...plus my PUNY blood level....does that indicate that I don't have a terribly severe case of bp? maybe a milder case? (although the lows, as I said, ARE severe w/ out meds)
I'd take clonazepam, low dose, 3x a day for 2-3 weeks to break the anxiety cycle. I personally didn't get addicted to it at all and was able to take it when needed after that 3 week loading.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that many folks REALLY need something to keep their anxiety away...keeping that anxiety away often leads to keeping depression and the other crap away...seems like anxiety often leads to depression then on to other terrible symptoms )anxiety>depression>"everything" at once!......kick anxiety's butt and oftentimes avoid the rest! Klonopin is definitely a drug I've got my eye on (took xanax years ago, great! but incredibly hard to get off of...that's why I've tried to stay away from Klonopin so far)
I'd try to find some other med than Remeron. Perhaps you've tried others and this is the best one so far?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> again, non-ssri ocd meds are VERY few.
Maybe it will be OK once you calm the anxiety with clonazapam. Maybe the lithium will calm things down. But I'm tellin' ya, Remeron is a strange one and there's got to be something else out there for you.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I really think I know what I'm going to try next---Celexa.....it's an ssri I know....I'm very confident it will work for the dep/ocd/anxiety for me....again, my ssri problem is that anger/irrit thingy ..... but I think I can handle Celexa....esp. on lith 600 mg/day....I HATE calling any doc and asking for a new med trial...but tomorrow I am.
About Primal Defense. I'm about at 6 of those teeny little measures a day. I think it's helping cause I'm not feeling so toxic, but I sure wish I could poop a whole lot more. I thought PD was going to help with that. Oh well, irritable bowel syndrome is just one of those things that comes with fibromyalgia. As I get better, my plumbing will improve. PD is helping out in the meantime. My naturopath recommends it and if it's good enough for her, then by golly, it must be good. How about you?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've never tried it yet Barb....I'd love to believe (and find out) that some NATURAL substance could really, dramatically improve major psych symptoms....don't know if Primal Defense can do much on its own....maybe a piece of the puzzle....seems like cleaning out the inside and taking great care of the inside should help though....I'll no doubt try it in time...take care BC! THANK YOU so much also!!!!
- Barbara
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by fluffy on August 28, 2003, at 11:07:16
In reply to Re: basket-case in a wave-pool » fluffy, posted by BarbaraCat on August 27, 2003, at 18:25:53
Hi Barb--
Thanks for the well-wishing and advice re: Lithium. I start it tonight at 600mg. I'll do that for a week, get my blood tested and go from there. I'd prefer to do the "sub-therapeutic" levels. But I'll see how I tolerate it, if at all. My doc seems pretty set on the therapeutic dose (I don't know what blood levels he's shooting for)
I had one of my "highs" yesterday...my thoughts were jumping all over the damned place. I tried to just settle down and watch TV at about 11:00. But I worked on my house, making changes, rearranging furniture...planning all of the redecorating I want to do. Everytime I get hypomanic, I always want to re-decorate and build furniture. I suppose that's a useful high, but it's getting downright intrusive. I could not sleep b/c my mind was going..."hmmm, I should re-appolster that chair...maybe blue...maybe pink...oh--and that table..it needs new legs....should I get one from Ikea?" and so on and so forth. My face was hurting due to teeth clenching, and smiling too much (I went to a bar last night to celebrate a friend's birthday--I was giddy as hell!) Could NOT calm down. So I took a damned Temazepam and got to sleep. It couldn't be clearer to me that I'm going up and down, see-sawing all over the god-damned place. Only two days ago, I was a dead person, walking around with no thoughts in my head...the only ones I had were so muddled and slow I couldn't grasp them. Falling asleep on the couch early in the evening, staring blankly into space. I'm a classic case.
So in short, I'm f*cking ready to stop this roller coaster ride. I hope, hope, hope the Li works!
Thanks again Barb!
Talk to you later,Katy
Posted by katia on August 28, 2003, at 13:48:03
In reply to Re: basket-case in a wave-pool, posted by fluffy on August 28, 2003, at 11:07:16
Hi Katy,
You really do sound exactly like me. What is this? Ultra-rapid cycling? I thought I was the only one to experience such rapid and abrupt changes from one day to the next - even within the same day.
Question: Were you "high" before you went to the bar?> and did you drink at the bar and feel your high get higher?
That happens to me - kinda like the coffee barometer. When I'm low, drinking makes it worse. When I'm verging on hypomania, I go into it with alcohol.And haven't you been on Lamictal throughout this? How long has it been?
I sometimes wonder if these highs after lows of staring off into the distance or at the ceiling for hours on end, are just a reaction of stored energy. Kind of like bears. They go into hypernation for the winter and then can go and go and go; and they're not BP (or maybe the fuzzy sweeties have been all this time!)
Sometimes when I can't sleep, I think "of course not, I've been sleeping the past year away, I'm ready for some action! i've been dormat for too long".
I too have been having trouble sleeping the past few nights and have had to take Seroquel for sleep. I went to bed last night at 11:30 (forced myself). I thought "wouldn't it be GREAT to just sleep through the night and wake up at 8:00 and do all the things that I need to do before noon?" no such luck. I was lying there until about 1:30 finally drifted off to sleep and woke up periodically and finally totally at 10:30/11. Now it's 11:45 and I'm just having breakfast.
I can't even imagine having a partner/boyfriend beside me during this! So I remain alone forever!?!
I just want to be able to be normal!! Go to bed when it's time, sleep thru' the night and wake up refreshed at dawn with the birds ready to start the day. Doesn't that sound wonderful?????I went to a new yoga studio yesterday and there is an "immersion" class - same class for a month. I'd love to do it, however, it's at 7am! I laughed when the teacher told me that. I said, "that counts me out, the only way I'm making a 7am class is in another lifetime when I have a different personality!".
But why can't I do normal things!!!!!! anyway, I'm getting frustrated too, Katy. Any consolation at all, you're not alone! Misery loves company? Well at least we can provide compassion and understanding for each other!!!!
take care,
Katia>>
> I had one of my "highs" yesterday...my thoughts were jumping all over the damned place. I tried to just settle down and watch TV at about 11:00. But I worked on my house, making changes, rearranging furniture...planning all of the redecorating I want to do. Everytime I get hypomanic, I always want to re-decorate and build furniture. I suppose that's a useful high, but it's getting downright intrusive. I could not sleep b/c my mind was going..."hmmm, I should re-appolster that chair...maybe blue...maybe pink...oh--and that table..it needs new legs....should I get one from Ikea?" and so on and so forth. My face was hurting due to teeth clenching, and smiling too much (I went to a bar last night to celebrate a friend's birthday--I was giddy as hell!) Could NOT calm down. So I took a damned Temazepam and got to sleep. It couldn't be clearer to me that I'm going up and down, see-sawing all over the god-damned place. Only two days ago, I was a dead person, walking around with no thoughts in my head...the only ones I had were so muddled and slow I couldn't grasp them. Falling asleep on the couch early in the evening, staring blankly into space. I'm a classic case.
>
> So in short, I'm f*cking ready to stop this roller coaster ride. I hope, hope, hope the Li works!
>
> Thanks again Barb!
> Talk to you later,
>
> Katy
Posted by fluffy on August 28, 2003, at 14:57:39
In reply to Re: basket-case in a wave-pool » fluffy, posted by katia on August 28, 2003, at 13:48:03
Hey Katia--
I'm glad you have a similar problem (oop--that's not right!, but you know what i mean!). I mean--I'm glad I'm not the only one. I liked your analogy about the hibernating bear...so true! I'm really kinda freaked out about this latest rapid cycling deal. I don't get it. I never cycled like this at all before. Apparently, from what I've read, the rapid cycling stuff doesn't last forever, and may only be a short part of our illness. But what the hell!! And this is ON LAMICTAL! I had a pretty good run with the stuff for several months. My mood chart evened out into an almost flat line. Now--sweet Jesus in heaven above!!!--it's all jagged ups and downs (not ALL the way up or down, but cyclothymic anyway) Maybe the sh*t just isn't working. But I'm not going off of it until I know it's not. Maybe the Lithium will give it a boost. I feel like my stability was just tacked on a wall with a pin. Now it keeps falling off the wall and being tacked up again. Hopefully the Lithium will nail my stability down and give it a firm hold. (but hopefully not like a sledge hammer!!)
As to your question about the bar visit last night. Well-I was pretty freakin' hypo by the time I got there. I was all on edge and speedy. I'd already taken a trip to Ikea to buy a new lamp. But I didn't drink at the bar until towards the end...only one pint of beer. Pretty good considering my track record. But I'm sure it didn't help me sleep. When I got home, I started re-decorating.
How are you doing with your Depakote? From what I know, it's the best drug to zap rapid cycling. So you may get some relief when you're at your proper dose? Tell me how it's going. I"m curious. I really hope you are feeling better. You seem a little better from the posts I've read.
Keep in touch, you fuzzy bear!!
Katy
Posted by katia on August 28, 2003, at 15:34:33
In reply to Re: basket-case in a wave-pool, posted by fluffy on August 28, 2003, at 14:57:39
Hi Katy, (fellow fuzzy bear)
I think IKEA is a stimulant for BP people. I get so hyped up when I'm there and then get into creative decorating frenzies from it too!I can definitely feel something's happening with the Depakote. I'm at 500mg and wondering if I should push it up. I'll call my pdoc. I haven't gained weight so far and my hair's still intact. But I'm still either feeling slightly up or slightly down. I can definitely feel an evening out somewhat. But then again, I'm extremely intolerant and lose my temper easily/react to people in a fiesty way.
So we'll see how it goes. Good job on only having one pint of beer! I just made a pact with my therapist to only drink two at one time and to assess my state after two (if I go for a third). Assess why I want it etc. just bring awareness around it. We'll see how the 2 drinks go. That'd be great if I can moderately drink.BTW, how do you get your mood chart to show lines? And what do you track daily?
take care,
Katia
> Hey Katia--
>
> I'm glad you have a similar problem (oop--that's not right!, but you know what i mean!). I mean--I'm glad I'm not the only one. I liked your analogy about the hibernating bear...so true! I'm really kinda freaked out about this latest rapid cycling deal. I don't get it. I never cycled like this at all before. Apparently, from what I've read, the rapid cycling stuff doesn't last forever, and may only be a short part of our illness. But what the hell!! And this is ON LAMICTAL! I had a pretty good run with the stuff for several months. My mood chart evened out into an almost flat line. Now--sweet Jesus in heaven above!!!--it's all jagged ups and downs (not ALL the way up or down, but cyclothymic anyway) Maybe the sh*t just isn't working. But I'm not going off of it until I know it's not. Maybe the Lithium will give it a boost. I feel like my stability was just tacked on a wall with a pin. Now it keeps falling off the wall and being tacked up again. Hopefully the Lithium will nail my stability down and give it a firm hold. (but hopefully not like a sledge hammer!!)
>
> As to your question about the bar visit last night. Well-I was pretty freakin' hypo by the time I got there. I was all on edge and speedy. I'd already taken a trip to Ikea to buy a new lamp. But I didn't drink at the bar until towards the end...only one pint of beer. Pretty good considering my track record. But I'm sure it didn't help me sleep. When I got home, I started re-decorating.
>
> How are you doing with your Depakote? From what I know, it's the best drug to zap rapid cycling. So you may get some relief when you're at your proper dose? Tell me how it's going. I"m curious. I really hope you are feeling better. You seem a little better from the posts I've read.
>
> Keep in touch, you fuzzy bear!!
>
> Katy
Posted by fluffy on August 28, 2003, at 17:34:02
In reply to Re: basket-case in a wave-pool » fluffy, posted by katia on August 28, 2003, at 15:34:33
Hi again Katia--
I use a mood chart that I printed out from this website: http://www.psycheducation.org/
It's ok, but I wish it addressed appetite and fatigue in another field. But it does the trick pretty well. When I say a "flat line" i mean that i recorded my mood at baseline for weeks. In the "anxiety" or "depression" columns, the line of course moves up or down. (that's how I do it anyway).Good luck with the drink, too. It's probably easier to do it slowly and see how you feel anyway. I didn't stop drinking completely, and I still have a drink here or there.
Glad to hear you are doing better w/ Depakote. And hey--are you sure you're not just a fiesty gal? I think I'm just fiesty and outspoken--I try not to associate it with being ill, and just think of it being "me". It's hard to tell the difference after a big episode and med trial, though.
Lots of luck and care,
katy> Hi Katy, (fellow fuzzy bear)
> I think IKEA is a stimulant for BP people. I get so hyped up when I'm there and then get into creative decorating frenzies from it too!
>
> I can definitely feel something's happening with the Depakote. I'm at 500mg and wondering if I should push it up. I'll call my pdoc. I haven't gained weight so far and my hair's still intact. But I'm still either feeling slightly up or slightly down. I can definitely feel an evening out somewhat. But then again, I'm extremely intolerant and lose my temper easily/react to people in a fiesty way.
> So we'll see how it goes. Good job on only having one pint of beer! I just made a pact with my therapist to only drink two at one time and to assess my state after two (if I go for a third). Assess why I want it etc. just bring awareness around it. We'll see how the 2 drinks go. That'd be great if I can moderately drink.
>
> BTW, how do you get your mood chart to show lines? And what do you track daily?
> take care,
> Katia
> > Hey Katia--
> >
> > I'm glad you have a similar problem (oop--that's not right!, but you know what i mean!). I mean--I'm glad I'm not the only one. I liked your analogy about the hibernating bear...so true! I'm really kinda freaked out about this latest rapid cycling deal. I don't get it. I never cycled like this at all before. Apparently, from what I've read, the rapid cycling stuff doesn't last forever, and may only be a short part of our illness. But what the hell!! And this is ON LAMICTAL! I had a pretty good run with the stuff for several months. My mood chart evened out into an almost flat line. Now--sweet Jesus in heaven above!!!--it's all jagged ups and downs (not ALL the way up or down, but cyclothymic anyway) Maybe the sh*t just isn't working. But I'm not going off of it until I know it's not. Maybe the Lithium will give it a boost. I feel like my stability was just tacked on a wall with a pin. Now it keeps falling off the wall and being tacked up again. Hopefully the Lithium will nail my stability down and give it a firm hold. (but hopefully not like a sledge hammer!!)
> >
> > As to your question about the bar visit last night. Well-I was pretty freakin' hypo by the time I got there. I was all on edge and speedy. I'd already taken a trip to Ikea to buy a new lamp. But I didn't drink at the bar until towards the end...only one pint of beer. Pretty good considering my track record. But I'm sure it didn't help me sleep. When I got home, I started re-decorating.
> >
> > How are you doing with your Depakote? From what I know, it's the best drug to zap rapid cycling. So you may get some relief when you're at your proper dose? Tell me how it's going. I"m curious. I really hope you are feeling better. You seem a little better from the posts I've read.
> >
> > Keep in touch, you fuzzy bear!!
> >
> > Katy
>
>
Posted by Ponder on August 28, 2003, at 17:44:04
In reply to Re: basket-case in a wave-pool » fluffy, posted by katia on August 28, 2003, at 15:34:33
Katia,
I know that mood charts are extremely helpful since bipolars can't remember how they felt or what happened 2 days ago and always seem to think their current mood has been the predominant one for months regardless of how rapidly they are cycling--at least that's how I am.I have had difficulty adhering to the standard chart, but I keep a journal in which I record my weight and how much I sleep each day as well as some notation of my mood or the events of the day and how I reacted. I think that if all I did was track my weight and sleep, it would still give a much better picture of things than I could yield by memory.
My problem with the mood charts is that I find it agonizing to pick which little box to check to record my mood--it's so much more complicated than a 1-5 scale!
That's my two cents worth. I'd be interested in how others go about tracking the efficacy of their meds and their cycling.
I hope this post will not be redirected because mood-charting of some sort is essential to evaluating the efficacy and side effects of medication.
Posted by Ron Hill on August 28, 2003, at 19:20:17
In reply to Re: Cortisol/Sugar Connection - Thanks BCat! » Ron Hill, posted by katia on August 27, 2003, at 16:46:54
Hi Katia,
> I'm actually going in for a metabolic testing. The website is [www.bloodph.com]. Apparently, unless you find out your metabolic type, none of the other kinds of diets/nutrition regimes really work. It's best to just read what he has to say as I'll butcher it.
Let us know what you think of the concept of metabolic typing after you go through the testing. I looked at the web-site and I'm curious about the validity of the concepts.
Thanks for letting me know about this web-site.
-- Ron
Posted by katia on August 29, 2003, at 0:50:53
In reply to Re: Metabolic Typing » katia, posted by Ron Hill on August 28, 2003, at 19:20:17
> Hi Katia,
>
> > I'm actually going in for a metabolic testing. The website is [www.bloodph.com]. Apparently, unless you find out your metabolic type, none of the other kinds of diets/nutrition regimes really work. It's best to just read what he has to say as I'll butcher it.
>
> Let us know what you think of the concept of metabolic typing after you go through the testing. I looked at the web-site and I'm curious about the validity of the concepts.
>
> Thanks for letting me know about this web-site.
>
> -- RonWill let you know!
Katia
Posted by katia on August 29, 2003, at 1:01:02
In reply to Re: basket-case in a wave-pool, posted by fluffy on August 28, 2003, at 17:34:02
Hi Katy,
I've been sobbing for the past hour, not knowing where the h*** this damn Tsunami just came from. This ain't no wave pool unfortunately and I want off this ride!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm sick to death of being me. I feel like I've been sponged. It's a technique in horseracing where horrible people will stick sponges up the race horses noses so that they will, over the course of the next few days/weeks, develop all these horrible illnesses and noone can see it and noone knows what's going on! (I've been reading Seabiscuit).
I feel like i've been sponged and am suffocating with no outlet or release in sight!!I might be able to attribute this to the two - yes my limit I stuck to it - two glasses of wine over dinner. But it's like a pin on a hot air balloon. It's only releasing what was already there. and I'm sick of being me!
What's all this about anyway - this dreaded life? One where I'm told there are colors, sounds, tastes, but I live cloaked in dust unable to taste and only feel pain.
What is this?! I'm sick of this! I want a normal(ish) life damnit!
Why am I cycling on Depakote? Is my dose not high enough? whereas before I was just racy, now I'm tired and hysterically depressed! So, no it looks like I"m not doing better unfortunately!
katia
Posted by fluffy on August 29, 2003, at 11:02:29
In reply to Hysteria in Tsunami! » fluffy, posted by katia on August 29, 2003, at 1:01:02
Oh miss Katia!!
I'm so, so sorry about your sponging. What a powerful and sorrowful analogy to how you are feeling. Yes--it does feel like the powers that be are playing with us BP peeps doesn't it? I know exactly what you mean, and for what it's worth, I DO feel your pain. Those crying spells and misery--you want to say, "hey--this is silly, I can just snap out of it. i'm just a weakling and I must WANT to be pathetic" (anyway--that's what I think when I'm super down.) Unfortunately, that thought process is a "symptom"--an overly simplified and (if you ask me) a bit cold and unsymathetic and clinical way to explain your feelings.
I don't know what to say except for JUST HANG ON FOR THE RIDE!! You seem like a fighter to me, or else you wouldn't even reach out for help and advice. I know you can get through this. And believe me, if you can weather this icky, yucky, cycling stuff, then you'll be able to handle the icky, yucky med trial stuff.
It may take a couple of weeks for the Depakote to work for you, if it is indeed the drug for you. The dose is maybe not high enough? If you are still not feeling any relief, CALL YOUR PDOC and let him know!! You may respond beautifully to another med or a higher dose of your current med (depakote).
It's been 7 months since I was diagnosed bipolar, and I've had some unsuccessful drug runs. It's VERY DAUNTING, but I can guarantee you that I feel at least 50% better than I did 7 months ago. I'm not out of the woods yet. REMEMBER--It DOES get better!! Please remember that!
I felt like I was diving off of a cliff with my first Li dose last night. I almost had an anxiety attack before I put the pills in my mouth. It was like I was FULLY acknowledging that I have bipolar disorder...I don't know why Lithium is so much more scary than f*cking anti-convulsants! Doctors should just lie to BP people and tell them it's something else to take the stigma and anxiety away from Lithium.
Anyway--Please take lots of care. And don't feel scared to lean on people you love during this time.
Katy
Posted by katia on August 29, 2003, at 13:47:10
In reply to Re: Hysteria in Tsunami!, posted by fluffy on August 29, 2003, at 11:02:29
Hi Katy,
Thanks for your words. I really do appreciate it. When you say "lean on those you love", it makes me sad. I am feeling extremely sensitive and feel rejected by anything any friend does and at the moment it feels as though I don't have any friends. And the ones I do have are probably sick of me leaning on them.
I am going to call my pdoc today and let him know what's going on for me. I am very emotionally reactive to the slightest thing (I think that's what caused the Tsunami last night). And I get exhausted so easily whether I"m having a "good" day or a "bad" day. I cannot handle much social interaction. and then there's the impatient fieryness I talked about. That feels really reactive to me; not so much a trait of my personality (even tho' I am a bit fiery and temperamental - illness or personality???).Maybe I need to up the Depakote. I felt stirrings of something happening, but now not much of anything. I feel a bit drugged and can't wake up before 11am and have trouble falling asleep and staying asleep - but not all the time.
who knows.
Thanks for being there Katy. It trully helps.
Katia
Posted by katia on August 29, 2003, at 14:03:11
In reply to Mood charts to assess meds/condition » katia, posted by Ponder on August 28, 2003, at 17:44:04
HI Ron,
Thanks for your input. I do need to do this, but it's so tedious and hard to do everday. I hate to scruntinize myself so much. It feels like it makes things worse; but i know in the end it make things better by helping assess stuff.
And at the end of the day, you know what my mood chart always says? I'm moody as h***. YEs, we already know that. Is the med working? I think I can get a general idea if I'm evening out or not. Apart from that how have you found mood charts to be helpful?
thanks.
katia>>I have had difficulty adhering to the standard chart, but I keep a journal in which I record my weight and how much I sleep each day as well as some notation of my mood or the events of the day and how I reacted. I think that if all I did was track my weight and sleep, it would still give a much better picture of things than I could yield by memory
Posted by katia on August 29, 2003, at 14:05:23
In reply to Mood charts to assess meds/condition » katia, posted by Ponder on August 28, 2003, at 17:44:04
correction - not Ron, but Ponder. Sorry! :-)
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 29, 2003, at 14:12:52
In reply to Hysteria in Tsunami! » fluffy, posted by katia on August 29, 2003, at 1:01:02
Dearest Katia,
If you were feeling waaaaay up and nasty, you'd be surfing that tsunami like a bronco. But you're not, you're tired and heartbroken and you've been under such a seige. This stuff is so hard on the body and soul. It's like a thought or a body feeling starts somewhere and then this toxic chemistry takes over and spins it into this tornado (or tsunami - wonderful analogy!).First of all, what you're in sounds like a mixed state, pure and simple. If you can trace the beginning of it to taking Depakote, well then, seems pretty clear to me. It might be destabilizing you. Who the hell knows why since it's supposed to be doing the opposite. But we BP's are such delicate creatures with crossed wires all over the place. In reading over your posts, dear Katia, it's my observation that there's a chemical fire going on in your brain, and it's a very recent one.
There have been a few posts on here that say that Zyprexa will cut the shit you're going through in 30 minutes or so. Not to be taken daily or anything, just when these waves of zsdk%%!##^f!!! engulf you. I don't know what your insurance situation is, but you know that you've got to get some help about all this, and soon. You've been suffering like this too long, Katia. Ultra rapid cycling. Something ain't right with you med combo. I'd be pounding on someone's door and insisting on help, real honest to God HELP – right now!! I'm not telling you anything you don't know, this is just my observation as a concerned buddy whose been there way too many times. Taking 1 or 2 benzos helped during the worst of it, but ultimately it turned out to be the other meds I was taking and the FEAR that took over that has it's own life. I thought it was panic attacks, but have come to recognize it as mixed states (same thing as panic, I suppose). I can't encourage you enough to NOT DRINK during this time and get yourself some righteous benzos.
Right now, you're in that maelstrom, holding on. It's hard to see anything outside that whirling black energy because it takes over and you're engulfed in it. But you know that there is life outside that hellish place. There's also your wise and calm self, that strong and beautiful blessed being who is You and who lovingly looks upon and holds everything with compassion and calmness. I know you have spiritual practice, but if you're anything like me, it goes out the window when I'm in terror, so here's a reminder and something that works for me.
If you can ask yourself the question 'Who is it that's having this experience of terror, fear, etc.', then you can begin to separate yourself from the experience itself and the frightened one having it, and realize that there is Someone/Something observing and asking that question. That Someone is the You who witnesses all without judging, who is not tossed about by anything, who is connected to Source and always, always is there - for it is You. When we're in the loud blaring static of our pain, it's hard to feel that connection, but it's there and it's where healing and the wisdom of knowing what's best for you resides. If you can grok that there is a consciousness separate from your pain who is watching and asking that question and then move back just one step into the safe presence of that calm being, you've moved out of the hurricane and into it's calm eye. You can then step back just one more step to observe what your Witness sees, and perhaps merge with it, to view the whirlwind of your mind from a place of centered compassion and out of the spin cycle. You can safely rest in that unflappable presence, and just watch, removed from the immediate terror of it. There truly is safety there, if I could only convince you of this now when you probably don't trust that anything will help. The worst of it hits when fear takes over and fear is mindless emotion that feeds on itself.
The idea behind this practice is to reach a place that has no spinning emotion but is able to observe dispassionately and yet compassionately. This place of quiet observation will also enable you to take good care of yourself, tell you when to use the turn blinker in the car, make that phone call, pay that bill, etc – be mindful. This practice of dissociating from the wobbles (bobbles?) of the spin cycle and taking refuge in the calm unchanging centerpoint stops that fear spin in its tracks. Simply by asking 'who is it that's having this experience?' and then identifying with the asker. You'll also find yourself wondering Who it is that's having the experience. The experience is not You and the frightened experiencer is also not You. You are something much bigger, and awsome, and not afraid of anything. Remembering this can help get you through the bad times. We need to get our meds straightened out, but they can't do it all for us. I've found this to be a worthy practice to cultivate for all the time (when I can remember to do it).
I don't know if you pray, or who you pray to, but if you don't have a Diety or anything like that, praying to Life to help you to withstand and understand it's many lessons helps. Hang in there and God go with you, dear friend. And lose that feeling of no friends, no one likes you, etc. That's just your fearful mind talking, not real, and the least of what you need to concentrate on right now. Just call out, your Babble-Buddies will be there for you. Aren't you glad you have friends who know what the f**ck you're going through (and love you all the more because you know what the f**ck we go through)? - Barbara
Posted by fluffy on August 29, 2003, at 14:56:44
In reply to Re: Hysteria in Tsunami! » fluffy, posted by katia on August 29, 2003, at 13:47:10
Hey Katia--
I know what you mean about leaning on friends. I only tell you because I know I felt like a burden to my friends during my last full episode, but they helped me through some really really rough spots. Some people shyed away from me b/c they were scared of me--seeing me not well. They didn't understand. But SOME of my friends came through with flying colors. And I can't tell you how important those people are to me now. You may feel like a burden, but I'm sure there are a couple of trusted friends who would be able to see you through at least some of this.
When I felt like you are feeling now (newly diagnosed and not over a major depression) I often wished that the "friends" who were like--"ick--she doesn't seem well--she's depressed--like, she's crazy--she cracked up--can you believe it?", I wished they knew what it was like to be me and to deal with what was on my plate. (the mean side of me wanted "the cheese to slide off of their cracker" and see how they felt!!--maybe give them an empathetic bone). Basically, through my ordeal I was able to tell who the real friends were, and who the true humanitarians were (or at least, the friends to lean on and the friends to just say "hi" to).
Sometimes I would just have to get away from everyone and just cry and cry until I couldn't cry anymore. The only other thing I could manage to do most of the time was chain-smoke and knit. But in between, there was a wonderful friend who was even able to stomach my admission that I was feeling suicidal. She didn't blink--just told me that if I felt that way again to make sure and call her, or call my pdoc right away.
So if you have a friend that you think can take it, then give him/her a whirl if you really need to lean on someone. (and try not to feel guilty--it's hard!!)
As to your medication, I hope your doctor can help you to find what will work best for you. Please keep our little support group updated.
The psychobabblers are here for you always!*sniff*
take care
Katy
Posted by fluffy on August 29, 2003, at 15:12:29
In reply to Re: Hysteria in Tsunami! » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on August 29, 2003, at 14:12:52
Katia--
Barb-cat's advice is good (about separating yourself from what you're feeling). Hard to do, but I think that's how I got through my alone times experiencing mixed symptoms. Barb-cat knows how to put that stuff into words!! I'm going to try to remember that next spell I have.
Both you guys rock!
Katy
Posted by katia on August 29, 2003, at 15:18:00
In reply to Re: Hysteria in Tsunami! » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on August 29, 2003, at 14:12:52
> First of all, what you're in sounds like a mixed state, pure and simple.
The odd thing about "mixed states" is that it really was like a Tsunami. It came quickly and went quickly(ish). I slept the night thru' and have woken up feeling mildly/mod low, but nothing like last night. yes, I know alcohol played a part in it. But i have had one-two drinks previously in the week and did not have this reaction.
>If you can trace the beginning of it to taking Depakote, well then, seems pretty clear to me. It might be destabilizing you. Who the hell knows why since it's supposed to be doing the opposite. But we BP's are such delicate creatures with crossed wires all over the place.
Well, the beginning of Depakote made me racy and my pdoc said to ramp it up to 500mg (the min. therapeutic level). I felt something happening, something stable-like interspersed with mild highs and mild lows. Some trouble sleeping (you know all about it - trouble falling asleep due to the nightowl in me and then periodic waking and then sleeping soundly thru' the morning 'til noonish). I can't have a life like this. So maybe I still need to go up further on the Dep. I'll call my pdoc today.
>>In reading over your posts, dear Katia, it's my observation that there's a chemical fire going on in your brain, and it's a very recent one.
See, for me, it feels like I've been cycling like this "chemical fire in my brain" for years. This doesn't feel new to me. again, maybe if I up the Depakote, I'll even out more.
> There have been a few posts on here that say that Zyprexa will cut the shit you're going through in 30 minutes or so. Not to be taken daily or anything, just when these waves of zsdk%%!##^f!!! engulf you. I don't know what your insurance situation is, but you know that you've got to get some help about all this, and soon. You've been suffering like this too long, Katia.
I know - it's time to be content and at peace!!!!! The thing about taking a benzo is that my moods swing so quickly that it's over with by the time the benzo probably sets in. I can ask about it. My insurance is none. I pay out of pocket - an empty pocket that is.
>>Taking 1 or 2 benzos helped during the worst of it, but ultimately it turned out to be the other meds I was taking and the FEAR that took over that has it's own life. I thought it was panic attacks, but have come to recognize it as mixed states (same thing as panic, I suppose). I can't encourage you enough to NOT DRINK during this time and get yourself some righteous benzos.
Barbara, I'm not sure because emotions are masked in so many different ways, but I can't help but feel like my main issue is utter despair. It's not so much fear as simply utter despair, with high energy.
I totally agree with you about the no drinking bit.
In regards to the witness stance, I know about this and do practice this too and it has helped me over the years get perspective (more than just perspective). Thanks so much for your lengthy guidance in that. Much much appreciated! I always have a hard time distinguishing between witnesses and repressing. Sometime, these wild emotions need a voice and when I step to witness, it diminishes it somewhat. Which is the point and is probably good, but I think I feel frustrated because I don't have an outlet for these wild emotions. They need to come out.
I'm trying to find healthy ways to do this.
anyway, there's so much to it. figuring all this out. And on top of it, i'm sick todeath of being alone. But i isolate myself because I can't let anyone see me go thru' this and when I have, I've ended up ruining some fantastic relationships or started unhealthy ones that got out of hand. So I isolate myself out of fear of how to BE like this in front of someone. Will I ever sort this out?????
anyway, thank you so much for your care and concern and kind words.
Katia
Posted by Ponder on August 29, 2003, at 15:47:29
In reply to Re: Hysteria in Tsunami! » fluffy, posted by katia on August 29, 2003, at 13:47:10
Katia,
Hypersensitivity to real or imagined rejection is actually a bipolar trait (yes, this IS a cruel disease). Somehow it helps me to know that, even though the feelings persist. I think it helps with that distancing that Barbara talks about--recognize that the illness is not you and that your current perceptions are a part of the illness, not an accurate reflection of reality.There was even an interesting little study about how bipolar people perceive facial expressions differently from non-bipolars. We are like the control group in our perceptions with one interesting exception--we are WAY more likely to pick up on an expression of disgust. Even a split second of someone else feeling disgusted registers with us. Mind you, it may have nothing to do with us. The person may be having a momentary flashback to a bad moment with their boss, or a conflict with a neighbor. But we see it and usually feel certain that we are the cause and object.
I agree, by the way, that what you are experiencing is a mixed state. The irritability, quick temper, and general emotional hyperreactivity is a give-away, especially since it is out-of-character for you.
You are remarkably articulate and expressive, particularly considering what you're going through at this time. It tells me you have a lot of internal resources to draw on. You should also know that you are making valuable contributions to all of us on this board. Your personality, courage and insight come through strongly in your posts.
About calling the doctor: I find that I have the hardest time calling my doctor when I am feeling the worst and need his help the most. I don't quite understand that dynamic. Part of it is the general tendency to withdraw, but sometimes I also fear that he will be disappointed in me because I haven't responded better to his treatment choices (like it's my fault, somehow) or that he'll be disgusted with me. :-) Anyway, I know the feeling, but would like to chime in with your other friends on the board in encouraging you to call in the calgary, your doctor being first in line.
Posted by katia on August 29, 2003, at 16:06:13
In reply to Re: Hysteria in Tsunami! » katia, posted by Ponder on August 29, 2003, at 15:47:29
Hi Ponder,
I feel so supported! It's great.
Yes, I can sense that my reactions are overly exaggerated and I'm hypersensitive. That's why I tend to withdraw sometimes and brood over the fact that "no one loves me :-(" Because part of me realizes how irrational I"m being and does not want to draw friends into this turmoil. But there comes a time (like today) when I just need to say something about how a "friend" has hurt me - regardless if I'm being overly sensitive or not. And it does diminsh that energy - that energy that feeds off isolation of "no one loves me or I could die and no one would miss me,etc.".In regards to calling the pdoc, I too get that resistance!!! I felt it today but forced myself to call him. I stuttered and mind went blank as to what I actually had been going thru' but I think I got the point across as I had written down things before the call so as not to forget. I, too, when in the face of the doctor forget totally about my struggles and put on a face. I think it comes from years and years of having two worlds. One face of internal suffering and one external of putting on the right face for the situation because I can't show what a lunatic I really am!!! "hold on until I get alone and then let the lunatic out!"
anyway, it's also about honoring what I'm feeling and taking it seriously and then being able to portray this to the doctor and friends/family. For so many years, I've learned to hide what I'm feeling, even to myself, and to not take what I'm feeling seriously and forgetting about it.
Ponder thanks for your supportive words!
Katia
> Katia,
> Hypersensitivity to real or imagined rejection is actually a bipolar trait (yes, this IS a cruel disease). Somehow it helps me to know that, even though the feelings persist. I think it helps with that distancing that Barbara talks about--recognize that the illness is not you and that your current perceptions are a part of the illness, not an accurate reflection of reality.
>
> There was even an interesting little study about how bipolar people perceive facial expressions differently from non-bipolars. We are like the control group in our perceptions with one interesting exception--we are WAY more likely to pick up on an expression of disgust. Even a split second of someone else feeling disgusted registers with us. Mind you, it may have nothing to do with us. The person may be having a momentary flashback to a bad moment with their boss, or a conflict with a neighbor. But we see it and usually feel certain that we are the cause and object.
>
> I agree, by the way, that what you are experiencing is a mixed state. The irritability, quick temper, and general emotional hyperreactivity is a give-away, especially since it is out-of-character for you.
>
> You are remarkably articulate and expressive, particularly considering what you're going through at this time. It tells me you have a lot of internal resources to draw on. You should also know that you are making valuable contributions to all of us on this board. Your personality, courage and insight come through strongly in your posts.
>
> About calling the doctor: I find that I have the hardest time calling my doctor when I am feeling the worst and need his help the most. I don't quite understand that dynamic. Part of it is the general tendency to withdraw, but sometimes I also fear that he will be disappointed in me because I haven't responded better to his treatment choices (like it's my fault, somehow) or that he'll be disgusted with me. :-) Anyway, I know the feeling, but would like to chime in with your other friends on the board in encouraging you to call in the calgary, your doctor being first in line.
Posted by katia on August 29, 2003, at 16:15:31
In reply to Re: Hysteria in Tsunami!, posted by fluffy on August 29, 2003, at 14:56:44
Hi Katy,
As far as friends go; yes I get that. And the weeds are trimmed away quickly. One friend in particular - I feel she is a good friend, but (is it my hypersensitivity or is it real???) she sometimes feels to me like she doesn't really believe that I'm suffering from an illness = bipolar/depression. I asked her about once and she said "the important thing is that YOU believe it". Sounds not too supportive eh? I responded by saying "no, it's important for other's to take this seriously and validate it as such for some understanding and compassion". She's had quite a good and charmed life and is so stable that she just can't understand it. And i think unless the "cheese slides off people's crackers" they WON'T get it. There is that whole misconception of "you can snap out of it - we all go thru' depressed periods" "work it out in therapy" i have tried the latter and it doesn't work without meds. So part of my not reaching out is I don't want more salt to the wound by people not understanding and actually making light of what I'm going thru'. I don't need insult to injury.
It's a tough one. My motto in life is "no one understands me or sees me for who I am!". (are you familiar with the Enneagram? I "do" a four very strongly.
anyway fluffers, thanks for being there!
how's your first day on Lithium?
Katia
> When I felt like you are feeling now (newly diagnosed and not over a major depression) I often wished that the "friends" who were like--"ick--she doesn't seem well--she's depressed--like, she's crazy--she cracked up--can you believe it?", I wished they knew what it was like to be me and to deal with what was on my plate. (the mean side of me wanted "the cheese to slide off of their cracker" and see how they felt!!--maybe give them an empathetic bone). Basically, through my ordeal I was able to tell who the real friends were, and who the true humanitarians were (or at least, the friends to lean on and the friends to just say "hi" to).
>
> Sometimes I would just have to get away from everyone and just cry and cry until I couldn't cry anymore. The only other thing I could manage to do most of the time was chain-smoke and knit. But in between, there was a wonderful friend who was even able to stomach my admission that I was feeling suicidal. She didn't blink--just told me that if I felt that way again to make sure and call her, or call my pdoc right away.
>
> So if you have a friend that you think can take it, then give him/her a whirl if you really need to lean on someone. (and try not to feel guilty--it's hard!!)
>
> As to your medication, I hope your doctor can help you to find what will work best for you. Please keep our little support group updated.
> The psychobabblers are here for you always!
>
> *sniff*
> take care
> Katy
>
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