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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by fluffy on August 6, 2003, at 11:10:20
In reply to Re: Best wishes to my friend B-Cat » Barbara Cat, posted by Ron Hill on August 3, 2003, at 20:52:13
Hey Ron Hill--
I hate to just bulldoze over everyone else's problems here on this thread. And Ron and Katia--I'm so sorry that you guys are feeling bad now. I guess I'm joining that club unfortunately. I'm starting to get that tired-wired feeling that I got last summer. I'm having severe difficulty getting sleep. I'm only sleeping because of those wonderful spendy pills of Ambien. I can't afford them though, and I'm becoming a junky. Even though I'm taking the Ambien, I'm waking up too early and feeling panic attacks just held at bay. I can't tolerate the least amount of coffee b/c it makes me feel panicky--so that's definitely out of the mix. (sometimes I feel like coffee is my barometer--if I drink it and still feel lethargic, I'm usually depressed. If I drink it and I feel panicky, than I'm on the hypomanic side of things.)
If I can't sleep, then I know an episode is most definitely on its way. I'm still taking 200mg of Lamictal. And so far, it's kept the depression from coming around. But the anxiety/hypomania doesn't budge. I asked my pdoc yesterday what the contingency plan is if I continue to have sleep problems. He suggested Melatonin (doesn't help lately) and if not that, Klonopin. But he said only if I could use it a couple of times a week (so I don't get addicted to it). But frankly, I think I need something every night this month to stave off my yearly mixed state. Has anyone been "addicted" to Klonopin. Can you taper off successfully?
The next step would be to try Li in conjunction with Lamictal. Why do I still feel afraid to try the damned stuff? Would Neurontin help my sleep? Would Trazodone??? I think I'll try the magnesium thing tonight.
I don't really know what my point is to this post. I'm just feeling desperate and I need some advice and support.
Katy
Posted by katia on August 6, 2003, at 15:18:38
In reply to To Ron Hill: Sleep problems--anxiety-HELP!, posted by fluffy on August 6, 2003, at 11:10:20
> Hey Ron Hill--
>
> I hate to just bulldoze over everyone else's problems here on this thread. And Ron and Katia--I'm so sorry that you guys are feeling bad now. I guess I'm joining that club unfortunately. I'm starting to get that tired-wired feeling that I got last summer. I'm having severe difficulty getting sleep. I'm only sleeping because of those wonderful spendy pills of Ambien. I can't afford them though, and I'm becoming a junky. Even though I'm taking the Ambien, I'm waking up too early and feeling panic attacks just held at bay. I can't tolerate the least amount of coffee b/c it makes me feel panicky--so that's definitely out of the mix. (sometimes I feel like coffee is my barometer--if I drink it and still feel lethargic, I'm usually depressed. If I drink it and I feel panicky, than I'm on the hypomanic side of things.)
>
> If I can't sleep, then I know an episode is most definitely on its way. I'm still taking 200mg of Lamictal. And so far, it's kept the depression from coming around. But the anxiety/hypomania doesn't budge. I asked my pdoc yesterday what the contingency plan is if I continue to have sleep problems. He suggested Melatonin (doesn't help lately) and if not that, Klonopin. But he said only if I could use it a couple of times a week (so I don't get addicted to it). But frankly, I think I need something every night this month to stave off my yearly mixed state. Has anyone been "addicted" to Klonopin. Can you taper off successfully?
>
> The next step would be to try Li in conjunction with Lamictal. Why do I still feel afraid to try the damned stuff? Would Neurontin help my sleep? Would Trazodone??? I think I'll try the magnesium thing tonight.
>
> I don't really know what my point is to this post. I'm just feeling desperate and I need some advice and support.
>
> Katy
Hi Katy,
You didn't bulldoze through! I'm not nec. "bad", but it's touch and go w/ me.
You bring up a good point with me too, as coffee being the barometer. It's true for me too. I have been drinking it steadily for the past year and in the past four months it had been doing nothing for me - no dent whatsoever. But lately, it's been getting me "high". I think the same exists for me - including alcohol for the same reasons.
I'm sorry to hear you're so anxiety ridden. Do you think it may just be a side effect while your body gets used to the lam.?
I've tried Trazadone and it seems to work well enough, depending on the anxiety level. But my new pdoc wanted to get me off of all ADs. You could give it a go. What really worked for me was Seroquel. I only had to take like 1/4 to 1/3 of 25mg and I'd sleep for hours. At present, I"m on nothing (about three weeks now). I even stopped the Seroquel to see how I did on sleep and I sleep so well now. I don't understand it all! However, I don't have to get up for a job - I work nights, so that plays a factor in my anxiety level for sure!
Ask your doc about Seroq. at small doses it could help you temp. get through August.
Katia
Posted by fluffy on August 6, 2003, at 15:30:34
In reply to Re: To Ron Hill: Sleep problems--anxiety-HELP! » fluffy, posted by katia on August 6, 2003, at 15:18:38
Thanks Katia--
I'm glad you're not all that bad off. I'm touch and go as well. Seems like I'm pretty volatile when I don't sleep though. And for the past 5 days...oh jeez!! I'm getting to be a real grouch. I went out to the "food hole" (my friend's name for Whole Foods supermarket) and got some sleep supplement. It has Magnesium, Calcium, Valerian, and GABA. I called my doc just now, and he said to just up my Ambien dose to 10mg. I hope it works at least for the next week or so. I don't get the feeling he's too keen on the supplement I bought.I keep thinking that I don't have enough mood stabilization with Lamictal alone, though. Seems like if I was stabilized, I'd sleep better. I've been on Lamictal for 5 months now, so my system is pretty used to it. It's never helped me with anxiety and/or sleep. I wonder if my doc would give me Seroquel. Seems like it's worked for a lot of insomniacs on this board.
Thanks for the advice Katia!
Be well,
Katy
Posted by fluffy on August 6, 2003, at 15:38:13
In reply to Re: To Ron Hill: Sleep problems--anxiety-HELP!, posted by fluffy on August 6, 2003, at 15:30:34
Oh--and Trazodone helped me too. My doc is hesitating to give me anything seratonin related now, as I had such a bad spell last year on SSRI's and Trazodone. But it's on the roster of things to try.
Posted by Ron Hill on August 7, 2003, at 13:12:50
In reply to To Ron Hill: Sleep problems--anxiety-HELP!, posted by fluffy on August 6, 2003, at 11:10:20
Hi Fluffs,
> And Ron and Katia--I'm so sorry that you guys are feeling bad now.
I'm doing better now. Thanks for your concern.
> I'm having severe difficulty getting sleep. I'm only sleeping because of those wonderful spendy pills of Ambien. I can't afford them though, and I'm becoming a junky. Even though I'm taking the Ambien, I'm waking up too early and feeling panic attacks just held at bay.
> If I can't sleep, then I know an episode is most definitely on its way. I'm still taking 200mg of Lamictal. And so far, it's kept the depression from coming around. But the anxiety/hypomania doesn't budge. I asked my pdoc yesterday what the contingency plan is if I continue to have sleep problems. He suggested Melatonin (doesn't help lately) and if not that, Klonopin. But he said only if I could use it a couple of times a week (so I don't get addicted to it). But frankly, I think I need something every night this month to stave off my yearly mixed state. Has anyone been "addicted" to Klonopin. Can you taper off successfully?
> The next step would be to try Li in conjunction with Lamictal. Why do I still feel afraid to try the damned stuff? Would Neurontin help my sleep? Would Trazodone??? I think I'll try the magnesium thing tonight.> I don't really know what my point is to this post. I'm just feeling desperate and I need some advice and support.
Yeah, I hear ya Katy; good quality sleep in the correct quantity is VERY important for us bipolar patients. My insomnia problems have been resolved (by and large) for a couple of years now. I attribute the improvement primary to magnesium and, to a lesser extent, lithium (my mood stabilizer). I take 800 mg of magnesium at bedtime. I use magnesium malate and magnesium citrate.
It sounds like you have some good ideas regarding things to try for your insomnia. May I comment briefly on a few of them?
Melatonin -- I used to use this. Sublingual was far and away more effective for me than "down-the-hatch" pills. Also minimize the dosage (i.e.; about 0.5 mg/night) and do not take it every night (or else it loses its effectiveness).
Klonopin – I’ve never used a benzo, although I’ve been tempted to try Klonopin to treat my periodic dysphoric mood states. A lot of people around here find Klonopin a very effective sleep aid and a lot of people use it daily for extended periods of time without any problems.
Lithium – If your insomnia is caused by hypomania, then it makes sense that adding another moodstabilizer might help. Lithobid reduces my insomia by treating my hypomania. Of all the moodstabilizers I’ve tried, Depakote had the most dramatic effect in reducing my insomnia. Depakote was notorious for giving me vivid dreams and when I woke up I felt like I had slept very deeply (it also caused me to gain 30 pounds and made me more depressed).
Trazodone – I’ve not tried it but, as you know, it’s known for its sleep aid characteristics.
Seroquel – AP’s are heavy duty stuff with side effects. If it were me I’d try other options first. But that’s just me.
Best Wishes Katy.
-- Ron
Posted by katia on August 7, 2003, at 13:59:55
In reply to Re: To Ron Hill: Sleep problems--anxiety-HELP!, posted by fluffy on August 6, 2003, at 15:30:34
> Thanks Katia--
> I'm glad you're not all that bad off. I'm touch and go as well. Seems like I'm pretty volatile when I don't sleep though. And for the past 5 days...oh jeez!! I'm getting to be a real grouch. I went out to the "food hole" (my friend's name for Whole Foods supermarket) and got some sleep supplement. It has Magnesium, Calcium, Valerian, and GABA. I called my doc just now, and he said to just up my Ambien dose to 10mg. I hope it works at least for the next week or so. I don't get the feeling he's too keen on the supplement I bought.
>
> I keep thinking that I don't have enough mood stabilization with Lamictal alone, though. Seems like if I was stabilized, I'd sleep better. I've been on Lamictal for 5 months now, so my system is pretty used to it. It's never helped me with anxiety and/or sleep. I wonder if my doc would give me Seroquel. Seems like it's worked for a lot of insomniacs on this board.
>
> Thanks for the advice Katia!
> Be well,
> KatyHi Katy,
Seroquel helped me sleep in the short term; I wouldn't take it in the long term. It's powerful and it can help stop the snowball effect of no sleep on top of no sleep etc. You know how it goes; if you get a good night's sleep chances are the next will be good and vice versa.From what I've heard on this board re: calcium and magnesium. They shouldn't be taken together as the mag loses its effectiveness.
just a thought.
sweet dreams.
Katia
Posted by fluffy on August 8, 2003, at 10:28:50
In reply to Re: Sleep problems--anxiety-HELP! » fluffy, posted by Ron Hill on August 7, 2003, at 13:12:50
My pdoc had me up my Lamictal dose (again) last night in an attempt to get a sedative effect. I think it kinda worked. I also took a smaller dose of Ambien (5mg). I'm feeling more human this morning. That's all I know. I had totally vivid and gross dreams and woke up several times though. (like in one of them, my friends were opening cans of worms and pouring them on a plate--EEEWWW!) When I woke up, I had trouble getting out of bed, which for me is normal. (hitting the snooze for 30 min. instead of being wide awake at 4 or 5:00 in the morning with teeth clenched).
I'm still nagged by the fact that the Lamictal doesn't "stick". I am at 250mg now, and I don't want to go any further. I guess I should just be happy that I'm somewhat more stable now and go to the contingency when needed. I just worry, worry, worry, as this is the first year I've been on mood stabilizers vs. antidepressants. I fear another episode like nothing else.
How are you doing Katia? Have you started the Depakote yet? May I ask where you live (b/c you're getting your meds in the mail)? Just curious.
Best to everyone,
Katy
Posted by katia on August 8, 2003, at 15:17:33
In reply to Re: Sleep problems--thanks for input Ron/Katia, posted by fluffy on August 8, 2003, at 10:28:50
> My pdoc had me up my Lamictal dose (again) last night in an attempt to get a sedative effect. I think it kinda worked. I also took a smaller dose of Ambien (5mg). I'm feeling more human this morning. That's all I know. I had totally vivid and gross dreams and woke up several times though. (like in one of them, my friends were opening cans of worms and pouring them on a plate--EEEWWW!) When I woke up, I had trouble getting out of bed, which for me is normal. (hitting the snooze for 30 min. instead of being wide awake at 4 or 5:00 in the morning with teeth clenched).
>
> I'm still nagged by the fact that the Lamictal doesn't "stick". I am at 250mg now, and I don't want to go any further. I guess I should just be happy that I'm somewhat more stable now and go to the contingency when needed. I just worry, worry, worry, as this is the first year I've been on mood stabilizers vs. antidepressants. I fear another episode like nothing else.
>
> How are you doing Katia? Have you started the Depakote yet? May I ask where you live (b/c you're getting your meds in the mail)? Just curious.
>
> Best to everyone,
> Katy
Hi Katy,
I live in a metropolitan area of SF Bay. So it's not that I live in a rural part, it's just that it's cheaper coming from Canada, as my pdoc is Canadian. But just recently I found out that I can be covered under the state system as I'm so poor! So I'm still waiting to start the med b/c I'm waiting for my rx to change to extended release. (b/c Canada has not yet been approved for or gotten the XR formula) anyway complicated story - bottom line I feel very fat right now as I've gained ten lbs. in the past six months and I was really resistent to starting the depakote. I want to LOSE weight now, not gain more - not even one lb. more! But now that I have (almost free) access to the XR formula in the U.S., I'll begin that. Apparently there are less of side effects , like weight gain on the XR.
I'm also feeling a definite rise in my mood - as I felt a week ago. it alternates between feeling "normal" to great to irritable and racy. But I have felt a cloud lift and although it's still partly cloudy it's better than a foggy and thunderous stormy day! So, I've kinda just wanted to give it a go w/o meds for a bit to see what happens. I know everyone does this and eventually ends back on meds, but after a year of trial and error to no success on ADs, I'm a bit disheartened, esp. with this lift in my mood happens when I'm off of everything! I feel back to my old self prior to the major depression that was the impetus for me to get help over a year ago. Not that my "old" self is totally healthy and functioning - not at all, it's just I know how to handle myself with no meds in my mixed bizarre-o state as I've been for most of my life (unless I'm in the throes of a suicidal depression). When meds that don't work enter the picture, things get even crazier.
I'm still sleeping forever tho'. And I don't see how depakote's going to give me energy. I have trouble settling down and falling asleep b/c my energy comes on late afternooon/night. then I finally fall asleep around 2/3 and sleep til noon! It's bizarre. My "symptoms" make no sense.
We'll see. maybe I'll just start the depakote this w-end!
Glad to hear you slept well finally! Just had a cup of coffee and feeling inspired and "high". is that the barometer reading? :-) Where do you live?
katia
Posted by fluffy on August 8, 2003, at 16:33:23
In reply to To med or not to med? » fluffy, posted by katia on August 8, 2003, at 15:17:33
Hey Katia--
I live in Houston, Texas.
As to the question--"To med or not to med?"--well I suppose that you're the only one who can make that choice. You've armed yourself with information about different meds and their side effects. It doesn't seem that you are questioning your diagnosis anymore. You know what's going on. With that said, I would suggest that you monitor yourself well--keep a mood chart (even when you aren't taking anything). It's a way of seeing as objectively as you can if you are still cycling or not. Write down your symptoms, thoughts and questions. Take it to your appointment and be assertive with your doctor about what you want out of a med/treatment. Trust your instincts. Do you trust your pdoc? That's really important.
My other mother-bird bit of advice would be to not let yourself go too far. If you start feeling like a hefty episode is around the corner, you'll save yourself a lot of grief by starting SOME kind of med (in the mood stabilizer family). Even if it doesn't work the way you want, at least you will feel pro-active in getting help and understanding what may or may not work for you. Also--it's a bit alarmist--but apparently BP can get worse and more treatment resistant the longer it goes untreated.
I remember going off of AD's and feeling a lot better. It WAS like a cloud lifted. Anything was better than how I felt on those damned things--cycling or not. But eventually, my mood went way down again, and I needed help. Also--I didn't want to put my new boyfriend through that shit. He was incredibly supportive, and comments on my progress since that time.
Please take lots of care. Sorry if I lectured you too much. Just trying to speak from my experiences.
Best,
Katy
Posted by katia on August 8, 2003, at 17:11:52
In reply to Re: To med or not to med?, posted by fluffy on August 8, 2003, at 16:33:23
> Hey Katia--
>
> I live in Houston, Texas.
>
> As to the question--"To med or not to med?"--well I suppose that you're the only one who can make that choice. You've armed yourself with information about different meds and their side effects. It doesn't seem that you are questioning your diagnosis anymore. You know what's going on. With that said, I would suggest that you monitor yourself well--keep a mood chart (even when you aren't taking anything). It's a way of seeing as objectively as you can if you are still cycling or not. Write down your symptoms, thoughts and questions. Take it to your appointment and be assertive with your doctor about what you want out of a med/treatment. Trust your instincts. Do you trust your pdoc? That's really important.
>
> My other mother-bird bit of advice would be to not let yourself go too far. If you start feeling like a hefty episode is around the corner, you'll save yourself a lot of grief by starting SOME kind of med (in the mood stabilizer family). Even if it doesn't work the way you want, at least you will feel pro-active in getting help and understanding what may or may not work for you. Also--it's a bit alarmist--but apparently BP can get worse and more treatment resistant the longer it goes untreated.
>
> I remember going off of AD's and feeling a lot better. It WAS like a cloud lifted. Anything was better than how I felt on those damned things--cycling or not. But eventually, my mood went way down again, and I needed help. Also--I didn't want to put my new boyfriend through that shit. He was incredibly supportive, and comments on my progress since that time.
>
> Please take lots of care. Sorry if I lectured you too much. Just trying to speak from my experiences.
>
> Best,
> Katy
Hi Katy,
yea, that's what I'm worried about. BP getting more treatment resistant as time goes on. Since understanding more about BP and realize I'm falling into the spectrum, in retrospect I've been cycling since I was a teenager - I'm 33 now. I wonder if it's already too late? Also, in retrospect, I realize I had my first manic episode when I was 17 turning 18 - right before and after graduation from high school - spring and summer. During that late fall and winter, I fell into an awful depression. it's only in retrospect that I can see it. At the time, I thought it was something I did wrong, to have fallen out of such a good mood. I kept trying to get that back, not understanding what was wrong with me. it's one thing to be in hell and not know or understand why you're there and another altogether to have some sort of dx and understand what's going on with you. You know what I mean? And since that one eposide, I've not had such a good one since - just chronic depression and mixed and some hypomania. I lived in the dark for so long, just by opening up to the knowledge that there is a mood disorder going on, opens up so much in me - and it's healing in itself.
Everything you say sounds true. I guess my one concern is - if ADs help depression and they didn't help me - mood stabilizers help with the highs? So maybe I'm holding the unconscious assumption that if I take mood stablizers, I'll just be taking away the high? Even tho' my pdoc told me it will even out my moods, I'm somehow not convinced. and I"m exhausted with med trials and feel half way decent at the moment that I'm reluctant to give any a go. I also just found out that I WON'T be getting the XR version of depakote.
I will start a mood chart - my therapist also recommended it.
Have you found mood stabilizers take away the depression too? My main prob. is depression and not enough energy.
warmly,
Katia
Posted by fluffy on August 8, 2003, at 17:36:13
In reply to Re: To med or not to med? » fluffy, posted by katia on August 8, 2003, at 17:11:52
Hey Katia--
You are probably not treatment resistant at this point. Maybe if you were like 50 years old or something. Besides--how will you know if a mood stabilizer will work or not if you don't try it? SSRI's and other AD's DON'T work on BP folks w/o the presence of a mood stabilizer.
For me, Lamictal has chased the blues away--it has a reputation for being an anti-depressant mood stabilizer. However, the risks of taking Lamictal ONLY involve still having a hypo-manic episode. Depending on the severity of your manic or mixed episodes, it may be recommendable to add another stabilizer on top (if you do the Lamictal thang). A lot of people who have only a problem with depression who haven't responded to AD's have responded to Lamictal. Also Lithium. I forget--are you the one who has a reaction to it? According to research, Li and Lamictal make great partners for lots of BP peeps.
You could try Lamictal first, and if it doesn't control the more agitated states, then you could add Li, Trileptal, Neurontin, Topomax, or Depakote (other anti-epileptics that control mania), or give a minor anti-psychotic a trial (like Zyprexa or Abilify). One of my friends who is BP responds well to Zyprexa and Wellbutrin. The important thing is to treat your SYMPTOMS. .
Another approach could be to try the depakote first, and if it only treats your "highs" or mixed states (as you fear) and not your lows, you could add an AD like Wellbutrin or Effexor (a non-seratonin related AD). There are lots of approaches, so it can seem daunting. But just try one thing at a time--add or subtract as you go.
Anyway--I know that I don't really know you, but I care anyway. Keep in touch, and let me know any thoughts.
Katy
Posted by fluffy on August 8, 2003, at 17:58:11
In reply to Re: It's not to late to medicate!, posted by fluffy on August 8, 2003, at 17:36:13
I re-read your post, and I thought I might just comment on the other issue you brought up. About that 20/20 hindsight--I think I can relate to that feeling of seeing the cycling even at a young age. I can look back now after having a formal diagnosis of BPII and see that my first episode of major depression was when I was 19. I wore the same sweatshirt for 3 months, didn't eat, cried around everyone--I didn't even understand that I was depressed. As for hypomanic--well, I'm not sure. I've always been outgoing and energetic. So it was hard for me to tell what was my hypomanic "up" mode and my "normal" mode. But after having treatment, I can definitely see how last summer I was HYPOMANIC! I had many, many plates spinning at one time, and it was impossible to keep up with my own pace. Eventually, I crashed and burned into the most agitated and anxious depression (i guess a mixed state) that I'd ever had. That's when I begged for treatment. It's also when I was precribed AD's and relapsed into an AWFUL mixed state. I also wondered how I could feel so bad after having felt so energetic and happy. It's the hallmark so to speak of bipolar disorder. It's what makes it so hard for us to understand. You can bet that I was pondering not getting treatment after having been burned by the meds I'd tried before. It's the hardest thing I've ever dealt with--EVER. I felt really betrayed by the whole psychiatry/medication thing, and I honestly thought I was beyond hope.
Don't feel alone in this, Katia. This board is great for giving and getting support.
Take lots of care,
Katy
Posted by katia on August 8, 2003, at 18:08:22
In reply to Re: one more thing, posted by fluffy on August 8, 2003, at 17:58:11
Thanks for all of your posts!
I probably will try the depakote, I'm just working up to it.
Effexor was one that I did try and it made me hypomanic/mixed - I actually lost weight on it. I was also extremely sensitive (what a surprise!) to the w/drawal effects. I had it everyday, even tho' I was taking my meds same time everyday. I won't go thru' another effexor withdrawal - no thanks! I also went thru' a hellish w/drawal on Zoloft.
From what I am hearing - depakote will not be enough to rid me of the depressive side. B/c of the Lamictal rash, my pdoc wants to start me on depakote. why not? It's worth a try and if it doesn't work, then I'll try something else.
and BTW, we're getting to know each other!
thanks again,
Katia
Posted by SUMMER2002 on August 8, 2003, at 22:25:42
In reply to Re: one more thing » fluffy, posted by katia on August 8, 2003, at 18:08:22
> Thanks for all of your posts!
> I probably will try the depakote, I'm just working up to it.
> Effexor was one that I did try and it made me hypomanic/mixed - I actually lost weight on it. I was also extremely sensitive (what a surprise!) to the w/drawal effects. I had it everyday, even tho' I was taking my meds same time everyday. I won't go thru' another effexor withdrawal - no thanks! I also went thru' a hellish w/drawal on Zoloft.
> From what I am hearing - depakote will not be enough to rid me of the depressive side. B/c of the Lamictal rash, my pdoc wants to start me on depakote. why not? It's worth a try and if it doesn't work, then I'll try something else.
> and BTW, we're getting to know each other!
> thanks again,
> Katia
Don't write off Lamictal - it has helped a great deal with no other side effects
Posted by flammula on August 13, 2003, at 20:37:29
In reply to Re: Gosford Park, Li and creativity, posted by fluffy on July 17, 2003, at 12:00:57
> Hey Barbara Cat--
>
> It's cool to hear what you do creatively. I passionately wanted to be a dancer, but opted to be a visual artist due to extremely short limbs and a bubbly butt.
>
> My work is dependent on a kind of choreography, though. I work more like an architect or a scientist than a mad, paint splattering expressionist type. I plan, concentrate and contemplate quitely rather than produce in a mad and tearful rage. Personally, the meds seem to have helped me complete my work (as with you). I really, really hate that image of visual artists...one that Kay Jamison catagorizes as the artist's temperment. (The Rothko, Pollock, Van Gogh types) I wonder if they would have opted to stay on meds rather than having a bad temper and losing friends. I kind of hated that book "Touched with Fire". Not all bipolar artists rely on their hypomanias to produce worthwhile work. She qualifies her generalizations a lot, but I couldn't help but feel that her points were exaggerated and romantic.
>
> I was curious about Lithium specifically because of its reputation for putting the fire out so to speak. Kay Jamison seems to dwell on it quite a bit. Her book actually makes me feel a little frightened about TAKING Lithium! Something I'm sure she didn't intend to purport.
>
> Rock on with your creative endeavors!
>
> Katy
I like what katy says about Touched With Fire--I thought it was exciting to read and had some useful insights but was generally WAY too glamourizing of both manic-depression and the artistic process.
--flammula, bipolar poet
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 15, 2003, at 13:53:31
In reply to Re: Sleep problems--anxiety-HELP! » fluffy, posted by Ron Hill on August 7, 2003, at 13:12:50
Hi Everyone,
I'm back from my vacation. Went to Katia's neck of the woods, SF Bay Area where we used to live. While it was great fun to see old friends and hubby's family it SURE is wonderful to be back home. Everytime I go away, even for a short time, I suffer incredible anxieties that I'm going to return to a smoking heap of cinders for a house and all my cats flattened in the road (we have a fine cat/house sitter, the road in question is a quiet country one, so gimme a break). All kitties were purring and happy, house was fine. But Oh God, IT COULD HAPPEN!! When am I going to calm down, when am I going to learn to trust? My husband just 'puts light around them' and goes his merry way, trusting that all is well. This is unimaginable to me. Sometimes I think it's my anxiety and hypervigilance that keeps the universe from blowing up, but of course I'm wrong (aren't I?).About sleeplessness, what is making more sense than anything else I've come across is that we of the mood impaired seem to be suffering from a reversed day/night adrenal hormonal response. Our adrenal cortisol which should be high in the morning (it eventually goes on to make norepineprine, dopamine) is high at night. Our adrenal DHEA which brings down cortisol is low at night. DHEA repairs which should be happening at night, and cortisol breaks down which should happen during the day. Having these cycles out of sync causes major problems. A theory is that adrenal stress is the major contributor. Our poor hyperalert selves perceive threat everywhere and the adrenals pump out adrenaline to run from those imaginary tigers. Eventually the adrenals can't handle the load and other systems have to take over, like our thyroid and reproductive hormonal systems. Continual cortisol produced by the adrenals eventually converts to a form that in high enough amounts, become toxic to the limbic brain area where our stress and hormonal regulating structures are found. Eventually these brain structures suffer damage and can't efficiently communicate with each other, are not able to regulate the very delicate hormonal balance entrusted to them (neurotransmitters and peptides are part of this hormonal biosphere). When this system gets disregulated, insomnia is only one of the signs. Even more unfortunate is that it becomes a self perpetuating loop, creating that very distinctive tired/wired feeling you can probably relate to. A major indicator is getting that second wind after 10pm, but feeling like a mack truck collision in the am.
Meds can knock us out, can interrupt the stress loop, but won't solve the problem. Certain natural substances help. About 6-10 grams Vitamin C divided daily is crucial. But even natural meds won't do the trick - it's more like taking away than adding more stuff. More important is to avoid any kind of concentrated sugar after 6pm, especially alcohol (waaaaah!!), sweets, anything stimulating like evening news, sitting in front of the computer monitor after 10pm, coffee after 4pm, reading murder mysteries before bed. Basically lights out by 11pm (light stimulates cortisol and reduces melatonin). Whatever exercise you can tolerate in the am, just get your butt moving. Terribly boring stuff, but so is insomnia. We know that stress is a killer, pure and simple, and our highly attuned nervous systems are warning us that we have to do whatever is in our power to reduce it. Interestingly, meditation raises DHEA naturally and lowers cortisol and so does exercise (in the morning). You don't have to be in your 50's to finally realize, jeeze, wish I'd made these lifestyle changes earlier! But take my wizened word as Gospel truth - you'll wish you had.
I am doing so much better, thank you so much one and all for helping me through my recent dark times. Isn't it true that every time we think that this is the BIG ONE we'll NEVER recover from, and we always do. Maybe somewhat scarred, but at least we weren't sucked into that black hole like we're sure we'll be every danged time. I even weaned off of Ambien (my refill didn't arrive in time before vacation so I didn't have much choice). After a few rough nights, but with the help of valium, I'm now sleeping naturally again. I even wonder if my improved mood has something to do with getting off Ambien. It was hard to follow the above suggestions of low stress/lights out by 11 while on a whirlwind vacation, but I mostly adhered to it and I do think it made a huge difference. Dear friends, hang in there (Katia, please, please, please try Depakote. If lithium makes you nervous, then there are others you can try. You can't imagine the relief you'll get when you're on a med that helps you find the eye of the storm. You can always go off it!). If it weren't for my Babble-Buds, and what I've learned on this board, I would be dead by now, and of that I have no doubts. So if I can gain a temporary respite, believe me, SO CAN YOU!! And from this vantage point, a temporary respite is a great gift and is enough to keep me going and growing. - Barbara
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 15, 2003, at 14:12:44
In reply to Re: Med free and misdirect » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on August 6, 2003, at 2:23:45
Katia,
Personal question, but did you have an abusive or stressful childhood? I certainly did and think that things were miswired back then. I remember a poll going around on this board a while back about that question, and it surprised me how many did not have difficult early years. Your hell sounds awful and sorry you had to go through that. Did anything trigger it that you're aware of? Could it trigger it again?As far as the spiritual study and practice, it doesn't cure us and isn't too available when we're in the worst of it, but I can't imagine where I'd be without it. When I'm a little better and realize others have gone through it and came through it stronger, it comforts me and helps me be better when I'm better (but not when I'm not). I keep hoping one day I'll believe it when I really need it.
>
> Prior to starting the medication last summer, every second was eternal hell for me. I had completely lost my mind - howling on the floor, making noises I've never heard before, crawling from the bed to bathroom and it taking one hour, marking myself with my fingernails, crying crying crying. And in the midst of these three intense months, I listened to so many tapes, i.e. Ram Dass's lectures/talks, The Power of Now - Tolle, and Pema Chondron's "When Things Fall Apart".
Posted by katia on August 15, 2003, at 16:17:22
In reply to Katia » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on August 15, 2003, at 14:12:44
Welcome back Barbara! I missed you! How was your holiday?
> Katia,
> Personal question, but did you have an abusive or stressful childhood?I think my childhood was stressful because I was so sensitive. The 70s were good, but when I hit 11 in 1981 that's when trouble started for me. What maybe was extremely traumatic for me was nothing for the next guy. and then it cycles and compounds each other - trauma more sensitivity, more depression, more trauma etc.
(what feels like trauma).
>>Did anything trigger it that you're aware of? Could it trigger it again?
Last summer, yes and no. I was already in a deep depression as i had moved to Scotland to be with my then boyfriend. I was falling deeper and deeper the longer I stayed there. In the end, I found out i was pregnant and he sent me back in the midst of a deep terrible depression with a one way ticket and wouldn't talk to me anymore. I had to stay at a friend's house - who is no longer a friend. I nearly lost all my marbles then. So yes the pregnancy and wonderful boyfriend I had triggered me to go as low as I did, but I was already in a clinical depression - unrecognized as such and untreated.
> As far as the spiritual study and practice, it doesn't cure us and isn't too available when we're in the worst of it, but I can't imagine where I'd be without it. When I'm a little better and realize others have gone through it and came through it stronger, it comforts me and helps me be better when I'm better (but not when I'm not). I keep hoping one day I'll believe it when I really need it.ditto.
I'm having a hard time at the moment. I have begun taking depakote and it's made me a bit wired. I feel out of control. I went out last night and stayed up past the sun rise and did things I shouldn't have done and now I'm (as you said) crawling into my hole cringing at my life and embarrassed at my behavior - wondering when all this craziness will end.
yes, I know I should contact my pdoc, but what am i to say? I'm too embarrassed. and he'd probably just say, wait a few more days and see how you feel. my body feels toxic. I feel awful.
I'm sick of this!
i'll just crawl back into my hole now.
Katia
> > Prior to starting the medication last summer, every second was eternal hell for me. I had completely lost my mind - howling on the floor, making noises I've never heard before, crawling from the bed to bathroom and it taking one hour, marking myself with my fingernails, crying crying crying. And in the midst of these three intense months, I listened to so many tapes, i.e. Ram Dass's lectures/talks, The Power of Now - Tolle, and Pema Chondron's "When Things Fall Apart".
>
Posted by Ron Hill on August 15, 2003, at 19:45:52
In reply to Re: Sleep problems--anxiety-HELP!, posted by Barbara Cat on August 15, 2003, at 13:53:31
Hi Barbara,
> I'm back from my vacation.
Welcome home. Glad you're back.
> I am doing so much better, thank you so much one and all for helping me through my recent dark times.
That's very good news BarbCat.
> Isn't it true that every time we think that this is the BIG ONE we'll NEVER recover from, and we always do.
Yes, exactly. It's hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel when the surrounding fog and darkness appear impenetrable.
As a bipolar, I relate to almost everything that you describe in your writings.
-- Ron
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 15, 2003, at 20:16:52
In reply to Re: Katia » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on August 15, 2003, at 16:17:22
> Welcome back Barbara! I missed you! How was your holiday?
>
It was good, but very do, do, do. We used to live in Marin County and have alot of friends there and my husband's family, so every hour of the day was packed. My husband can handle it all but I no longer can and had to just say no which I used to feel guilty about - a malingerer, party pooper, blah blah. But fooey on anyone who doesn't like it. But I did get to see the Oregon Vortex 'House of Mystery' on the drive back. Weird. I still feel unsettled from being in that magnetic vortex.I'm so sorry for your Scotland sorrows. That's immense stuff, Katia. Did you know that pregnancy is often the triggering event for bipolar illnes? It was for me when I had a stillborn child many years ago. I always had depression but pregnancy after-effects brought on the mixed states stuff compounded by my own drastic life events at the time. Have you ever gotten a thorough full hormonal workup? You won't get the tests or proper attention on this from your usual medical channels. I'm a big proponent of good naturapathic healthcare, but I realize Calif doesn't license them.
Toxic body - yes, yes, yes!! I know this well. You just FEEL like there's something physically wrong and it's not just all in your psyche. There IS more to it than brain chemistry! For me, fibromyalgia is my body's response and it is HELL, but at least I know what I've got and what do work towards. It's different for everyone, but it IS in the body just as much as in the brain. I know you've been through it all, turned over every stone, but there's more stones left to uncover when you're feeling a little better. Pursue this, Katia. Not now, you've got too much to deal with, but later when your life force is a little brighter. Listen closely to your body even though you may not get many answers right away. But it's speaking to you and saying 'I'm toxic, dammit! HELP!!'. It will eventually tell you how to help.
I can't stress this enough - you will not get the answers from your pdoc, no matter how good he/she may be at tweaking your brain chemistry. But this exploration is long term and in the meantime, he's got to have some intervention up his sleeve to get you feeling better NOW. You don't have to go through this constant misery, Katia. You'll feel better eventually if Depakote is going to work, but there are other meds that will relieve this agony in the short term. I'm a big fan of benzos and don't believe they exacerbate depression one bit, in my experience. They've brought me out of the anxiety basket case many times until I could manage on my own. Keep bugging him, Katia. That's what he's being very well paid for - to help YOU.
No one knows better than you what staying up all night partying will do. You don't even have to be bipolar to feel like wrung out dog turd the next day, so crawling into a hole is probably the best thing you can do - you know, 'sleep it off'. I absolutely LOVE alcohol and give in to an orgy with it occasionally, but oh boy, do I ever pay! Talk about poison! I've recently made it quite OK with myself to stuff myself with valium, neurontin, anything that will knock me out and put me on a mental retreat. I'll do it for as long as I need, just lay in bed, read, sleep, cry, journal. With enough help from my med friends I'm able to just slip into a restful fuzz and heal my battered soul a little. I know when to take up my pallet and walk again when the worst is over. Afterwards I drink alot of water to flush things out, but in my case, I need that rest and recovery or the stress loop gets worse. And bleagh! to anyone who doesn't approve of this strategy, 'cause it works for me.
Please don't be hard on yourself for slipping. Just think of it as another colorful entry in your book of life. Drink lots of water and take lots of Vitamin C and some B vites. Tomorrow will look better. You're in my prayers, Katia. - Barbara
Posted by katia on August 15, 2003, at 23:03:47
In reply to Re: Katia » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on August 15, 2003, at 20:16:52
Thanks Barbara I appreciate that long post. I really need to not drink until I can get this mood/med thing down. not even one as Ron says. It knocks me off balance -whatever that is - and after one, two looks ok and then just three etc. It's doing strange things to my mood now since the depakote - everything gets exaggerated and it's going towards the good, high, exhuberant, need more stimulation way. This'll be hard. maybe I'll join a support group b/c it is not working for me, to drink.
I think the depakote could work, but it's not working with the alcohol. i need to give it a go sans spirits, unfortunately :-(. I feel better for it tho'.
thanks again,
Katia
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 16, 2003, at 11:22:16
In reply to Re: Katia » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on August 15, 2003, at 23:03:47
Yes, it's very hard to not drink. One rather large glass of wine will make me feel 100% better immediately - the only substance that will do this. But like you, the next glass is always waiting, the initial glass's rosy effects fade pretty quickly and before long I've had the whole bottle. The next day I feel horrible, like crap, depressed, toxic, ashamed, weak. It's not worth it and every time I swear I've learned my lesson and give it up for awhile. The difference abstinence makes is remarkable - my meds work, I think clearly, my energy level is great, my meditations are like cool clear water.
But I always seem to succumb eventually, thinking 'I've been good, I deserve it' and that I can stick to just one glass of that wonderfully buttery Chardonnay I got for such a deal at Costco. Not! Part of the problem is that I drink it at night which violates the very important rule of no concentrated sugars at night. That just perpetuates the cortisol disregulation problem we all seem to suffer from. So maybe a support group will help. My girfriend, who had a very serious drinking problem I only knew about afterwards, has had her life transformed by AA. Not just for the alcohol problem, but in every area of her life. She loves it and now has a close supporting group of friends out of it and 5 years of sobriety. Her self pride is a joy to be around. I'm not ready to go that route and would like to find another way to go, but so far I've been able to stick to my resolve to have wine just twice a month. Knowing about that concentrated sugar/cortisol connection has really helped. Good luck on this, Katia. It may be the 'magic bullet' for you. But goodness, it's hard and getting help is probably the wisest choice since you're feeling so down. - Barbara
> Thanks Barbara I appreciate that long post. I really need to not drink until I can get this mood/med thing down. not even one as Ron says. It knocks me off balance -whatever that is - and after one, two looks ok and then just three etc. It's doing strange things to my mood now since the depakote - everything gets exaggerated and it's going towards the good, high, exhuberant, need more stimulation way. This'll be hard. maybe I'll join a support group b/c it is not working for me, to drink.
> I think the depakote could work, but it's not working with the alcohol. i need to give it a go sans spirits, unfortunately :-(. I feel better for it tho'.
> thanks again,
> Katia
Posted by katia on August 16, 2003, at 15:49:40
In reply to Re: Katia » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on August 16, 2003, at 11:22:16
Hi Barbara,
There are other ways to go that are drinking support groups other than AA. AA's philosophy puts me off. I know it helps people, but I've been repelled to it, not drawn. I know of another group in the area that I'll start going to. At least to look at what's going on for me. It's been my way of self-medicating over the years and now that I've decided to really get proper help = medications, I really need to let this one go. One, to see if meds will work and See what can happen when I do have all my marbles - that's also frightening. But it's time let go of the old dusty cloak that doesn't serve me. And drinking is part of that and I know it.
Even tho' I know that draw of the buttery chardonnay!
It just takes courage to let this last piece go!
Katia> Yes, it's very hard to not drink. One rather large glass of wine will make me feel 100% better immediately - the only substance that will do this. But like you, the next glass is always waiting, the initial glass's rosy effects fade pretty quickly and before long I've had the whole bottle. The next day I feel horrible, like crap, depressed, toxic, ashamed, weak. It's not worth it and every time I swear I've learned my lesson and give it up for awhile. The difference abstinence makes is remarkable - my meds work, I think clearly, my energy level is great, my meditations are like cool clear water.
>
> But I always seem to succumb eventually, thinking 'I've been good, I deserve it' and that I can stick to just one glass of that wonderfully buttery Chardonnay I got for such a deal at Costco. Not! Part of the problem is that I drink it at night which violates the very important rule of no concentrated sugars at night. That just perpetuates the cortisol disregulation problem we all seem to suffer from. So maybe a support group will help. My girfriend, who had a very serious drinking problem I only knew about afterwards, has had her life transformed by AA. Not just for the alcohol problem, but in every area of her life. She loves it and now has a close supporting group of friends out of it and 5 years of sobriety. Her self pride is a joy to be around. I'm not ready to go that route and would like to find another way to go, but so far I've been able to stick to my resolve to have wine just twice a month. Knowing about that concentrated sugar/cortisol connection has really helped. Good luck on this, Katia. It may be the 'magic bullet' for you. But goodness, it's hard and getting help is probably the wisest choice since you're feeling so down. - Barbara
>
> > Thanks Barbara I appreciate that long post. I really need to not drink until I can get this mood/med thing down. not even one as Ron says. It knocks me off balance -whatever that is - and after one, two looks ok and then just three etc. It's doing strange things to my mood now since the depakote - everything gets exaggerated and it's going towards the good, high, exhuberant, need more stimulation way. This'll be hard. maybe I'll join a support group b/c it is not working for me, to drink.
> > I think the depakote could work, but it's not working with the alcohol. i need to give it a go sans spirits, unfortunately :-(. I feel better for it tho'.
> > thanks again,
> > Katia
>
>
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 16, 2003, at 18:58:47
In reply to Re: Katia » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on August 16, 2003, at 15:49:40
Hi Katia,
I agree with you about AA philosophy. It puts me off as well. I never lasted more than 1-2 meetings even when I was majorly in need of something. Those little slogans... It's not something I choose to be involved with, although I know it helps alot of people.Please let me know of your experience/progress with your group and what their philosophy is. I'm looking for something that will understand that an occasional Margarita (Cadillac, of course) with friends is not something to flagellate myself over. So far, the meditation/spiritual practice is keeping me on track and is probably all I need as long as I stick with it. Since I'm not in such desperate need of immediate relief I don't feel the need to get so fu**ed up like I used to. But I can't kid myself - booze combined with hypomania is a potent brew. Just wish it didn't cost so much in every way imaginable.
>AA's philosophy puts me off. I know it helps people, but I've been repelled to it, not drawn. I know of another group in the area that I'll start going to.
Posted by Ron Hill on August 16, 2003, at 21:25:53
In reply to Re: Katia » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on August 16, 2003, at 11:22:16
Hey BarbCat,
> Part of the problem is that I drink it at night which violates the very important rule of no concentrated sugars at night. That just perpetuates the cortisol disregulation problem we all seem to suffer from.
> Knowing about that concentrated sugar/cortisol connection has really helped.
Barbara, I'm outta the loop on this concentrated sugar/cortisol connection thing. Will you post the link(s) that I need to read in order to come up to speed on the topic? Thank you!
In particular, I want to know how sugar intake affects cortisol levels and I want to know why it is important not to eat or drink concentrated sugars at night.
Anecdotally speaking, I periodically go through a sugar-craving-binge wherein I consume a large quantity of a dessert type treat just before bedtime or in the middle of the night. For example, I can eat an entire cheesecake or I can devour the better part of a half-gallon of ice cream with some cake, cookies, or pie. However, I've noticed repeatedly, and without fail, that I feel somewhat depressed the following day. I attribute the depression to the prior nights sugar binge. Now I'm wondering if this is related to the sugar/cortisol thing that you made reference to in your post.
-- Ron
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