![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 314 to 338 of 948. Go back in thread:
Posted by katia on July 30, 2003, at 23:04:28
In reply to Thanks Katy, Katia, posted by fluffy on July 30, 2003, at 17:54:37
>
> > good luck with your move. I can empathize as I've moved about six times in the past year and a half! it makes things worse. esp. for those who need vigilant watch on their sensitive balancing act!
> > be well.
> > Katia
> >
> >
> Thanks Katia--
> I perked up and took notice when you said you had moved 3 times in a year and a half. Me too!! The last time I moved, I was having my most full blown manic episode where I decided that EVERYTHING in my life had to change all at once. This time I've kept my head about it. My friends joke about my constant moves. They always ask, "how many times have you moved since i've known you?" I hope this is the last one before i BUY A DAMNED HOUSE!
>
> The seasonal theory of mood changes holds true for lots of BP folks, but it's not written in stone. You may not really have a regular pattern. For me, there are times when I'm more susceptible to changes...usually when the seasons change. Add some stress or trauma into the mix--and POOF! bad, bad episode. I hate being so damned fragile.
>
> best of luck with you too, Katia!
>
> Katy
Hi Katy!
I said SIX times!!! It's too much....Over the years, my friends have developed one full address book just for me!
When you say full blown manic episode what do you mean? If I remember correctly your dx is BPII? and you take only Lamictal? forgive me if my memory is off - foggy head and all that. BTW, where do you live - at least which country?
katia
Posted by nmk on July 31, 2003, at 13:35:30
In reply to Feeling pretty bad, posted by Barbara Cat on July 29, 2003, at 12:12:10
Hi Barbara,
I haven't been reading posts these past few days but when I read today how badly you were feeling, I wanted to let you know I was thinking about you. You have such a wonderful gift Barbara and you provide me with the inspiration, motivation, and insight to keep pushing on, even through the darkest of moments. Hope is the only thing I am holding onto these days and you have contributed greatly to my persistence and proactive stance with my illness.
I know the feeling of taking one step forward, two back, and I have a tendency to get frustrated to the point of wanting to give into those feelings of negativity and depression. It is like someone is playing a cruel joke on us....we start to feel better, are making progress toward our goals, and we FINALLY believe there is an end to the madness. Then, you awake one morning to find that nothing is certain. One thing I know for sure is that it WILL end. You will regain your fortitude, positive energy, and that sense of humor we all love (ie; dancing queen...loved it!!).
I only hope you continue to post when you need support. You give so much to others and we would do anything for you. Continue to write in your journal, take good care of yourself, and let me know if today is a better day.
Sincerely,
Nicole :)
Posted by fluffy on July 31, 2003, at 14:18:08
In reply to Re: Thanks Katy, Katia » fluffy, posted by katia on July 30, 2003, at 23:04:28
Hey Katia--
As far as I know, I'm not BPI. But I really wouldn't care anymore at this point. So long as the medication makes a dent in my symptoms. Last summer I was continually hypomanic for at least a month. Since I've never had to be hospitalized, heard or seen things (full blown manic) I'm not classified as BPI. I have suffered a great deal from agitated depressions, which I guess are mixed states. And I remember my doc saying the presence of them classifies a person as BPI. (I think mixed states can be mild and full blown just like mania though). The only time I had a full blown mixed state was while on Lexapro. If a mixed state or mania occurs while on an antidepressant, it doesn't "count" towards the diagnosis.
I'm only on Lamictal now, but I may end up adding something else to my cocktail soon. Maybe Depakote or Li. I've had trouble sleeping and having racing thoughts and the like.
best,
katy
Posted by katia on July 31, 2003, at 14:49:02
In reply to Katia: RE: BP II clinical mumbo jumbo, posted by fluffy on July 31, 2003, at 14:18:08
I agree to a point that it can mumbo jumbo. But it is also a fresh relief for me to have something solid and revealing about what I've been experiencing most of my life. As much of my life I dismissed psychiatry and depression ,etc. as a bunch of mumbo jumbo - (my denial kicking in). It feels good to give a language to what I've been feeling so as to take steps in order to transform out of this darkness and acknowledge something that is not so much my fault or my **** ups.
If you try depakote, let's keep in touch about it as I'm waiting for mine to come in the mail.
katia
Posted by Barbara Cat on July 31, 2003, at 16:15:41
In reply to Re: Feeling pretty bad » Barbara Cat, posted by nmk on July 31, 2003, at 13:35:30
Dear Nicole,
Thank you so much, sweetie. You've made a big difference to me today. I feel your care so much. Thank you. Today is up and down, well not really much up. The real hard stuff is the panic attacks, which I haven't had for a few years. I'll wake up out of sleep and be in the middle of one. I can stand anything, but not them. I stopped taking nortriptyline not too long ago and I think this may be a fallout from that, at least in part. The other part is that there's some PTSD flashbacks coming very strong from my, uh, challenging childhood. I never know what I'm supposed to do with this stuff - is it my extra sensitive nervous system due to med withdrawal? Is it something I should be processing?I've grown weary and suspicious of the whole psychotherapist thing, especially with the in-and-out managed care travesty and health records open to far too many people. Here I am with the only place left to go, and that is Spirit, my inner knowing, and maybe that's what I need to learn. It's as good enough reason as any, I guess. So, luckily, I'm in a position where I'm not working, can swing on my hammock on the porch, pet my cats, ocassionally talk to the hubby, keep taking lithium and lamictal, but by God, I will not go back to an antidepressant again. There's got to be another way. Like you wisely said, we will beat this thing. Maybe not 100% but I'll take what I can get. Love and thanks to you. - Barbara
Posted by PhilipCarey on July 31, 2003, at 21:21:51
In reply to Thanks Katy, Katia, posted by Barbara Cat on July 30, 2003, at 11:58:15
Barbara, don't mean to barge in on the thread, but a while back I remember reading your posts, and how great you were doing on Remeron and Lithium. I wondered whether a bit of Remeron might help you gain some much needed sleep. I don't really remember why it was that you quit that. Seems you were anti-meds for a bit, and that's the last I read.
Best of luck to you. I can sure tell you're going through a difficult time right now.
Posted by katia on August 1, 2003, at 1:38:14
In reply to Re: Feeling pretty bad » nmk, posted by Barbara Cat on July 31, 2003, at 16:15:41
it my extra sensitive nervous system due to med withdrawal? Is it something I should be processing?
>
> I've grown weary and suspicious of the whole psychotherapist thing, especially with the in-and-out managed care travesty and health records open to far too many people. Here I am with the only place left to go, and that is Spirit, my inner knowing, and maybe that's what I need to learn. It's as good enough reason as any, I guess. So, luckily, I'm in a position where I'm not working, can swing on my hammock on the porch, pet my cats, ocassionally talk to the hubby, keep taking lithium and lamictal, but by God, I will not go back to an antidepressant again. There's got to be another way. Like you wisely said, we will beat this thing. Maybe not 100% but I'll take what I can get. Love and thanks to you. - BarbaraHi,
For some reason I feel partially responsible for all this questioning of psychotherapy - in regards to my questioning my own dollars spent over the years. I meant it in my first posting as simply - it's hard to decipher what's what with moods and natural need to process; esp. in the face of medications. I feel like a lot of people going are starting to bash therapy. Maybe it's me, but I think it's a good thing. it's just important to tease out if youcan
(and you can do this in therapy) what is the depression and what is real stuff that needs to be processed.
Maybe I've read into things too much; but it seems ever since I wrote some honest feelings about therapy, a lot of people have written it off. Is it my imagination? FYI, I've never been to a therapist under any insurance. I go solely from my own pocket. And that pocket is nothing. My rent alone is $750 per month. Most people I know go to someone not under HMOs or the like.
Katia
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 1, 2003, at 2:51:22
In reply to Re: Feeling pretty bad » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on August 1, 2003, at 1:38:14
Hi Katia,
I've had wonderful luck with therapists and wish I had a good one right now. I'm in a huge HMO and it's like a revolving door. Those poor people are so overworked and stressed out themselves. My pdoc doesn't do therapy. I think I'm going to have to find one I'm paying out of pocket as well. You can spend more time and get into some important issues instead of the quick fix limited sessions. Besides, I had reason to look at my medical records and was absolutely shocked at how exposed my history is to anyone you sign your life away to, like jobs, bank accounts, loans. We don't think about such things and assume we're getting a deal by having insurance pay. Insurance companies demand detailed record keeping and nothing is safe, no matter who says differently. It concerns me greatly. I think privacy is maintained when insurance doesn't get involved. Thanks for clearing things up, but I'm with you - also a big fan of good therapy.> it my extra sensitive nervous system due to med withdrawal? Is it something I should be processing?
> >
> > I've grown weary and suspicious of the whole psychotherapist thing, especially with the in-and-out managed care travesty and health records open to far too many people. Here I am with the only place left to go, and that is Spirit, my inner knowing, and maybe that's what I need to learn. It's as good enough reason as any, I guess. So, luckily, I'm in a position where I'm not working, can swing on my hammock on the porch, pet my cats, ocassionally talk to the hubby, keep taking lithium and lamictal, but by God, I will not go back to an antidepressant again. There's got to be another way. Like you wisely said, we will beat this thing. Maybe not 100% but I'll take what I can get. Love and thanks to you. - Barbara
>
> Hi,
> For some reason I feel partially responsible for all this questioning of psychotherapy - in regards to my questioning my own dollars spent over the years. I meant it in my first posting as simply - it's hard to decipher what's what with moods and natural need to process; esp. in the face of medications. I feel like a lot of people going are starting to bash therapy. Maybe it's me, but I think it's a good thing. it's just important to tease out if youcan
> (and you can do this in therapy) what is the depression and what is real stuff that needs to be processed.
> Maybe I've read into things too much; but it seems ever since I wrote some honest feelings about therapy, a lot of people have written it off. Is it my imagination? FYI, I've never been to a therapist under any insurance. I go solely from my own pocket. And that pocket is nothing. My rent alone is $750 per month. Most people I know go to someone not under HMOs or the like.
> Katia
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 1, 2003, at 3:13:14
In reply to Re: Thanks Katy, Katia, posted by PhilipCarey on July 31, 2003, at 21:21:51
Thanks for barging. Much appreciated. It's meant alot at how my Babble Buds have bouyed me up during this crummy time. Yes, I was on Remeron a year ago. It worked beautifully for a few months and then pooped into a massive mixed states depression. Went on lithium to augment it, not knowing that I was really dealing with Bipolar rather than major depression. You probably caught me when I was on the upswing from the combo. The two worked great for 3 months, better than any other, and then pooped again. It was at this point I decided I didn't want to do SSRI's any more because of the classic zoom and poop routine that I've had on every one of them. I put on 30 lbs on Remeron and felt either sluggish or agitated. Plus, I still couldnt sleep. So it's not worth it. I've felt much better in general from lithium and lamictal, although this current spell is a down and dirty one. Meds don't seem to be metabolizing. I don't think I'm so much anti-med as much as being committed to my dying day to finding the right ones and using my increased clarity and health as a springboard to better functioning. If I can get through each day I feel like I've done something notable, even if it's only laying on my hammock. A day without multi hits of panic is a darn good one and I have to thank my blessings.
I really think we can do it as long as we build up reserves and have help nearby. Sure wish I could find a good sleeper, though. It really affects my fibromyalgia badly and that's a whole other story. The bottom line is that for me, meds haven't living up to their potential and I think it has somethingvto do with - somethine, Idont' know. So with nothin but myself to turn to I', goin to weather this out on lam and lihium and hope I don't damage any wires in the process. So, thanks for your concern and suggestion. If you have any other ideas, keep 'em coming. I think I'm in for a long spell with this one and company is helping so much. - Barbara
> Barbara, don't mean to barge in on the thread, but a while back I remember reading your posts, and how great you were doing on Remeron and Lithium. I wondered whether a bit of Remeron might help you gain some much needed sleep. I don't really remember why it was that you quit that. Seems you were anti-meds for a bit, and that's the last I read.
>
> Best of luck to you. I can sure tell you're going through a difficult time right now.
>
>
Posted by katia on August 1, 2003, at 14:37:27
In reply to Re: Thanks Katy, Katia » PhilipCarey, posted by Barbara Cat on August 1, 2003, at 3:13:14
HI Barbara,
Are you still having a hard time? It wasn't as quick as my bottom crashing out. My "cycles" what ever they are, are so quick - up one minute and down the next. High energy either way! and dullness and dust in between. Have you talked to your pdoc? Maybe you need a slight adjustment with the med combo. It'd be a good thing to mention to him/her. It could be about tweaking one up or one down a bit.
yes, as unfortunate as it is that I don't have insurance, it's been good in that over the years I haven't even messed around with HMO therapists. (not that there aren't good ones), but it's such a delicate matter that you have to find the right fit and sometimes that doesn't happen within that system. (and as you pointed out, it's all on paper for whomever to see). Same here - pdoc is medication related and that's it. Therapist - talk therapy. Two different people and two different jobs.
The anxiety is something terrible. I feel for you. Depression is one thing, and horrible enough as it is, it is so much better without the horrible anxiety!!! I know it's hard in this state, but hard physical activity can allievate it. Do you have bikram yoga near you? That is so intense, you totally forget about everything except breathing and enduring the poses. and then you feel good for a brief moment at the end.
good luck to you.
Katia
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 1, 2003, at 17:23:19
In reply to Re: Thanks Katy, Katia » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on August 1, 2003, at 14:37:27
> pdoc is medication related and that's it. Therapist - talk therapy. Two different people and two different jobs.
And two different boards. :-) Sorry to intrude, but I'd like further discussion of psychotherapy to be redirected to Psychological Babble. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20030711/msgs/247437.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 2, 2003, at 1:55:18
In reply to Re: Thanks Katy, Katia » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on August 1, 2003, at 14:37:27
Hi Katia,
I'm doing better today, thanks. Just sat with the anguish the last week (barely) and hung on and let myself cry. Have to remember that the pain of my Mom's death is still very raw and comes in waves. But - A reprieve today! Hope it sticks. With every new episode, THIS TIME is different, THIS TIME I'm really going to slip off the edge, THIS TIME I'm going to fall into that black pit forever. The mind is so weird, there's no reasoning with it in that state. The only med adjustment is allowing myself to take extra valium when I feel like I'm going to jump out of my skin (Yo, Dr. Bob, psychopharm refs to follow). There's no reason to muscle through something like that. It's the flight/fight chemicals gone amuk, the amygdala caught in a loop. There's no reason to not seek relief from such debilitation. I used to be such a damn stoic, but no more. Give me drugs that work!!! And while we're at it - WE NEED A NEW DRUG!!!!Bikram yoga, ah, how I wish. I live in a rural area where Bikram yoga would be considered the backyard of the Devil's playground. I'd love to have that kind of community. There is a new Zen monastery not terribly far away and I'm availing myself of it. I do yoga on my own and lots of belly dance, which is my drug of choice. I'm in my cave experience right now and not seeking other people. Most I encounter are crass disgusting jackasses, and those I'd like to hang out with are hiding out as well. This will eventually change as I mend.
The energy moving disciplines are at least as good as any med out there. It's just finding the motivation and clarity to START. I know this very well and yet when I'm in the grip of a bad one, there's nothing that can move me through it except time, love and tenderness (to quote Michael Bolton). ;-)
Posted by Ron Hill on August 2, 2003, at 21:31:45
In reply to Re: Thanks Katy, Katia » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on August 2, 2003, at 1:55:18
Barbara,
Wow! You're going through a tough time, huh? I'm so sorry Barb. But do not lose heart; you will cycle back up soon.
Why did you discontinue the TCA? Do you feel depressed or is it more of a dysphoric mood state issue? Please list your symptoms for me. Can you put your finger on what caused you to begin the downward spiral (or was it a cliff)?
I’ve been away from the board for a few weeks, and I have not had time to read past posts. Therefore, I don't know your recent history other than what you've written in this thread. I'm so sorry that you are in such pain. And you were doing so well as recently as a month or two ago.
You will cycle back up, Barb. It's just a matter of time. What does your pdoc say? Have you seen him/her since the start of your recent hell?
There are solutions to your current brainchemistry problems. All we have to do is find one or two and then implement them (solutions that is). There ARE answers! Start looking. I know you can do it because you’ve done it before.
Talk to me B-Cat.
-- Ron
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 3, 2003, at 15:17:59
In reply to Re: Best wishes to my friend B-Cat » Barbara Cat, posted by Ron Hill on August 2, 2003, at 21:31:45
Hi Ron,
Thanks so much for your heartwarming wishes. It means so much to be understood and cared for during these times. Yes, I've been through a very trying time of it. Not the first, probably not the last. I went off nortriptyline because of the dry mouth and constipation. Plus, I'm taking a boatload of pills already and don't think I'm absorbing them very well. As I decreased nortrip I was slowly increasing lamictal from 75 to 150mg. Feeling great, a little hypomanic, the kind we all love so much. It was probably a combo of the two meds potentiating each other. Have a great time riding my bike for miles, dancing, having a good old time, getting lots of exercise. Ahhhh! Then I started noticing increasing disorganization and a wired singed feeling that heralds an oncoming mixed state. I think it was lamictal over activating with the extra help of the TCA, but who knows for sure. I do know I visited hell for a while.Here's what I think happened. When my sleep becomes disturbed, that's when the miseries start. I have fibromyalgia and loss of sleep is my downfall. No amount of Ambien, benzos, benedryl, were helping me get to sleep. I'd lie there with swirling disjointed thoughts bordering on mild psychosis. I also developed a severe itch which I found out is a side effect of lamictal (no rash, just intense internal and external itching). I was up most of the night scratching and fretting about life. What followed was a bad fibro flare with the sick aching, inflamed brain feeling, wired and tired, and all the pain of the world crashed in. The first mixed states I've had since starting lithium. I then started getting panic attacks which I haven't had in a few years. Those things are beyond horrible. I totally forget anything I ever knew about anything, simple things like breathing into a paper bag.
I also believe it was a long overdue reckoning with the fact that my Mom is really and truly dead, so at least I had a good reason for the constant crying. I can usually muscle through a mood state like this, distract in some half-assed way, but not when I'm laid flat with a fibro flare.
But I remembered - ah, I've got valium (klonopin and ativan pooped out a while back), and starting taking it regularly. This broke the cycle of hell and I'm getting some rest, although not much Stage IV. A big learning as well was this time I finally stopped fighting it and somewhere a little light shined and reminded me that I'd been there before and for whatever reason, my feelings were valid and to be honored. No reason to hate myself for feeling like shit.
Getting back to my meditating and some yoga, very slowly. So I'm on lithium 600mg and lamictal 125mg (more was causing an infernal itching). Ron, I've had it with TCA's and SSRI's. I'm determined to do this on mood stabilizers until a med comes out that isn't a dud. But I REALLY REALLY have to watch my sleep and not stress out. That whole HPA-axis disregulation has my picture next to it in the textbook. Right now, this minute, I'm feeling pretty good, notable for the fact that I'm also feeling centered and focussed. I'm also very proud of myself for having made it through another battle. Like Katia calls us - Warriors of the Psyce. Hope you're doing well. Thanks so very much for caring for me and the feeling is reciprocated. - Barbara
Posted by Ron Hill on August 3, 2003, at 20:52:13
In reply to Re: Best wishes to my friend B-Cat » Ron Hill, posted by Barbara Cat on August 3, 2003, at 15:17:59
Barbara,
> Here's what I think happened. When my sleep becomes disturbed, that's when the miseries start. I have fibromyalgia and loss of sleep is my downfall.
Me too. Disruption of my sleep cycle triggers my bipolar symptoms. I take 800 mg of magnesium (half Mg Citrate and half Mg Malate) at bedtime and it is an excellent sleep aid (for me). You’re a nutritional supplement goo-rue so I’m sure you take some magnesium. How much do you take and what chelating agent? Have you ever tried taking it at bedtime?
> A big learning as well was this time I finally stopped fighting it and somewhere a little light shined and reminded me that I'd been there before and for whatever reason, my feelings were valid and to be honored. No reason to hate myself for feeling like shit.
I agree. Beating yourself up with negative self-talk makes it worse. Like you, it helps me to cognitively understand that my symptoms are directly related to my BPII and that this too shall pass.
> Getting back to my meditating and some yoga, very slowly.
Good. Prayer and exercise both improve brainchemistry for me.
> So I'm on lithium 600mg and lamictal 125mg (more was causing an infernal itching).
I like this combo. As it turns out, this combo doesn’t work for me because Lamictal causes a severe rash over a significant portion of my body. But for those BP patients that can tolerate it, I think it is a good combination.
> Ron, I've had it with TCA's and SSRI's. I'm determined to do this on mood stabilizers until a med comes out that isn't a dud.
Yeah, this has been my position for the past couple of years. But sometimes I wonder if Nardil or another MAOI in conjunction with Lithobid might be worth a trial. ENADA NADH continues to function pretty well to control my atypical depression, but if it were to poop-out on me, I might consider a Nardil trial. Also, serotonin elevating medications (e.g. SSRI’s) completely solve my dysphoric mood state problems (EXTREME irritability) but they also take away my drive and my emotions. But maybe Nardil would get rid of the irritability without turning me into what my wife affectionately refers to as her “do nothing boy”.
Refresh my memory; you tried ENADA NADH, correct? Did it help, hurt, or provide no effect for you.
> But I REALLY REALLY have to watch my sleep and not stress out.
Again I agree with you. Stress is a HUGE factor affecting the onset of my BP symptoms. I have a theory (which may or may not be correct) that goes like this: People like you and I who experienced an inordinately high volume and intensity of childhood trauma damaged our stress response systems due to overuse, and now as adults, the slightest level of stress completely screws up our systems and adversely affects our brainchemistry.
> Right now, this minute, I'm feeling pretty good, notable for the fact that I'm also feeling centered and focussed.
Good.
> I'm also very proud of myself for having made it through another battle.
Yes indeed. Good job. I hope calm waters lie ahead.
> Hope you're doing well.
For the past month I’ve been having trouble with wretched dysphoric mood states. I don’t know if it should be classified as a mixed state condition, but it is hell to experience and it is hell for my wife when I’m screaming 24/7. Niacin (250 mg a couple times a day) helps to reduce my irritability and l-theanine (200 mg a couple times a day) helps even more, but neither one fully solve the irritability problem. Further, as with most nutritional supplements, if I use them every day they begin to loose their effectiveness. About two weeks ago I added 400 mg/day (200 bid) of Neurontin (gabapentin) to my Lithobid. It reduces (moderately well) my irritability within a few minutes of taking a dose, but the half-life of this stuff is so short that I begin to rebound back into an irritable mood state after about three hours and the rebound state is worse than if I had not taken it to begin with. If I bump up the dosage to 800 mg/day I experience cognitive blunting problems. I quit taking it a couple days ago. I don’t think I want to keep it in my cocktail. Exercise (stress relief) and prayer seem to be key in treating my dysphoric mood states. I’ve had some breakthroughs over the past couple of days and I’m doing fairly well today.
> Thanks so very much for caring for me and the feeling is reciprocated. - Barbara
And thank you as well Ms. B-Cat!
-- Ron
Posted by katia on August 4, 2003, at 0:47:45
In reply to Re: Thanks Katy, Katia » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on August 2, 2003, at 1:55:18
HI Barb,
My mood has been in exact opposite of yours. My mood has definitely turned for the better! I'm so excited about it. I think it has to do with the fact that I'm meditating again and that I leave my window open at night. I wake up feeling so good b/c of the fresh breezes. it's been over a year since I've been med free. and my body is starting to adjust very well. I think that taking those ADs for the past year made me worse. I've been w/o any meds for about three weeks now. the first two were hard, but now I"m starting to feel "brighter". like the song - things are going to get brighter. It feels amazing .. I'm so happy that I've finally risen out of darkness.Anyway, i wanted to bring up an issue and maybe this is reserved for a "social" issue and if it is will you please follow it with me? that's what i hate about being re-directed, i"m never sure if people will follow it or not.
anyway - it's this. I know it's totally ridiculous and typical and he's probably gay - nothing wrong with this at all and which is great for gay men, but not so good for me, but I don't know what to do with this. I have a crush on my psychiatrist. Yes, I do. I feel ridiculous. I can't help it. he's a bit older, very educated, funny (with sense of humor), and intelligent and able to converse on an emotional level and why not????? Really?!
Anyway I've thought about not posting this. I'm still waiting for the depakote in the mail. I honestly am thinking that I need to give it a try with no meds. I am starting to feel normal and I can focus and I feel happy to be alive. And I don't want to call this hypomanic. I want to keep this feeling. Can't I just be exuberant and joyful to be alive without being labeled? really. I need to know what is going on with me without meds. I'm not sure if I'll take the depakote when it comes in the mail.
anyway,
how are you?
will you follow this thread if it goes to social babble?
Katia
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 4, 2003, at 1:35:44
In reply to Re: Thanks Katy, Katia » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on August 4, 2003, at 0:47:45
> Anyway, i wanted to bring up an issue and maybe this is reserved for a "social" issue and if it is will you please follow it with me? that's what i hate about being re-directed, i"m never sure if people will follow it or not.
Thanks for keeping in mind how this site is set up. You can never be *absolutely* sure if people will read anything here, either...
> anyway - it's this. I know it's totally ridiculous and typical and he's probably gay - nothing wrong with this at all and which is great for gay men, but not so good for me, but I don't know what to do with this. I have a crush on my psychiatrist...
You're right, that's a good topic for Psycho-Social-Babble. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030727/msgs/247931.html
Bob
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 5, 2003, at 11:51:59
In reply to Re: Thanks Katy, Katia » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on August 4, 2003, at 0:47:45
Hi Katia,
That's so great that you're improving without meds. It's a big inspiration for me. Getting the meds out of the system and having patience while the body chemistry adjusts (if it's ever going to) is a big challenge. I always wonder if good feelings are due to hypomania, if discomfort is my 'real' symptoms rearing their ugly heads, or if it's just withdrawal detox that will eventually resolve. The waiting is hard especially if you don't know if it's doing damage or good. Thanks for the validation on simplifying and knowing that someone has made it for a good stretch of time. Maybe if life gets really tough at some point you'll opt to start taking meds again, but at least you've had this time to clean out and reset the circuits.About the redirect and crush on pdo conversation, I'd be happy to follow you to a new thread, but it's been my experience that my own and other's threads have been lost in space when they get redirected. It always feels like wandering into unknown territory with a redirect 'cause I've made most of my friends on the psych babble board. But, heck, I guess it's a good opportunity to meet new folks. If you can paste a link address if the thread made it to social, I'll jump over to it.
I'm going away for 10 days so it might be a while, but as Arnie says 'I'll be back'. Besides, girlfriends have to keep in touch! - Barbara
It's been over a year since I've been med free. and my body is starting to adjust very well. I think that taking those ADs for the past year made me worse. I've been w/o any meds for about three weeks now. the first two were hard, but now I"m starting to feel "brighter". like the song - things are going to get brighter. It feels amazing .. I'm so happy that I've finally risen out of darkness.
>
> Anyway, i wanted to bring up an issue and maybe this is reserved for a "social" issue and if it is will you please follow it with me? that's what i hate about being re-directed, i"m never sure if people will follow it or not.
> anyway - it's this. I know it's totally ridiculous and typical and he's probably gay - nothing wrong with this at all and which is great for gay men, but not so good for me, but I don't know what to do with this. I have a crush on my psychiatrist. Yes, I do. I feel ridiculous. I can't help it. he's a bit older, very educated, funny (with sense of humor), and intelligent and able to converse on an emotional level and why not????? Really?!
> Anyway I've thought about not posting this. I'm still waiting for the depakote in the mail. I honestly am thinking that I need to give it a try with no meds. I am starting to feel normal and I can focus and I feel happy to be alive. And I don't want to call this hypomanic. I want to keep this feeling. Can't I just be exuberant and joyful to be alive without being labeled? really. I need to know what is going on with me without meds. I'm not sure if I'll take the depakote when it comes in the mail.
> anyway,
> how are you?
> will you follow this thread if it goes to social babble?
> Katia
Posted by nmk on August 5, 2003, at 15:07:53
In reply to Med free and misdirect » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on August 5, 2003, at 11:51:59
Hi Barbara,
Just checking in and am thrilled to hear that you are feeling better. I hope your 10 day vacation will bring you back smiling and feeling better than ever.
I have since joined the Lamictal club. My pdoc weaned me off Trileptal (pooped out) and I am now up to 75 mg of Lamictal. I hope you can answer a few questions since I am already starting to get discouraged with the side effects. Since I started the Lamictal, I have noticed EXTREME anxiety during the day and difficulty falling asleep at night. My pdoc states that this will dissipate as I reach a therapeutic dose but I am worried. Thank God for my Ativan! I have read numerous posts regarding Lamictal yet nobody complains of increased anxiety. Do I just need to be a tad more patient??
Thanks,
Nicole
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 5, 2003, at 15:14:13
In reply to Re: Best wishes to my friend B-Cat » Barbara Cat, posted by Ron Hill on August 3, 2003, at 20:52:13
Hi Ron,
>>Disruption of my sleep cycle triggers my bipolar symptoms. I take 800 mg of magnesium (half Mg Citrate and half Mg Malate) at bedtime and it is an excellent sleep aid (for me).
>
Magnesium is the king of minerals!! It makes a big difference in my fibro aches and general calmness, but I have to take ALOT. Mg glycinate is supposed to be better absorbed without the pesky diarrea, but I haven't found this to be true. I also take Mg Malate. Also Coral Calcium, but not at the same time as Mg cause they supposedly compete. I'm trying to take as many whole food sources as I can 'cause I don't think fractionated vitamins are too good for me. Plus, I have a suspicion that most of my vitamin pills end up in the toilet. I'm working on probiotics and other things for absorption cause so many meds over the years have caused sluggish digestion.>>Beating yourself up with negative self-talk makes it worse. Like you, it helps me to cognitively understand that my symptoms are directly related to my BPII and that this too shall pass.
>
Yup, if only I had access to those memories and tools when I'm in the depths. I'm usually so dispirited that I berate myself for thinking that God is anything but an insane puppet master. And hah! hope is for delusional fools whom I want nothing to do with. Pretty nihilistic but the time spent there is getting less and less, thankfully.
>
>>Prayer and exercise both improve brainchemistry for me.That's my main reason for taking meds - to get to a place where I can pray and exercise cause I can't do either when my circuits are blown.
>
>>Lamictal causes a severe rash over a significant portion of my body. But for those BP patients that can tolerate it, I think it is a good combination.
>
Lamictal caused a bad itch forcing me to reduce it. But the AD effect seems to be holding once I emerged from the recent bad spell.> > But sometimes I wonder if Nardil or another MAOI in conjunction with Lithobid might be worth a trial.
Have you heard anything about moclobemide? It sounds interesting in that it's a reversible MAOI without the dietary restrictions. I haven't heard anything.
>>ENADA NADH continues to function pretty well to control my atypical depression
I used Enada NADH when a few years ago when I was in the worst of the fatigue of fibromyalgia. It helped alot with energy. I cut back on anything too energizing because of my tendency to panic attacks and mixed states. But I sometimes wonder if my fibro symptoms, muscle aches, fatigue, fog, etc., isn't in part due to the atypical depressive part of the bipolar spectrum. I'm going to order it as soon as I finish this.
>>“do nothing boy”.
Love it. When my husband gets depressed (not too often) he goes into what I refer to as his 'gray zone'. But I tell ya, Ron. I'd rather be 'do-nothing girl' instead of the agonized sobbing and falling apart kind. It's really embarrassing in public cause most folks just haven't gone there. I can't be near a supermarket with lobster tanks. Sometimes I consider Zyprexa cause my states get so horrific that I'm sure they're psychotic (I think that makes me BP-I istead of II). I just hate to take yet another pill that's a pudge maker. But I can't go through many more of those horrors.
> > People like you and I who experienced an inordinately high volume and intensity of childhood trauma damaged our stress response systems due to overuse, and now as adults, the slightest level of stress completely screws up our systems and adversely affects our brainchemistry.
Oh, you bet. We're the canaries in the coal mines. The HPA-axis and corticotrphin neuro-toxic theory makes the most sense to me. Few creatures, especially a delicate child's developing neural system, can go through sustained trauma and not be permanently scarred by it. But hey, maybe this is the shamanic initiation required to open the gates of perception not usually available to 'normals'. It would be great if it was better suppported and honored and there was truly helpful guidance for it instead of being at the mercy of HMO's and the dart-board approach to medicating. I'm convinced that we need med support while we need it, but healing the deeper limbic structures require more realms of delicacy and skill than are usually available from our pdocs.
> > For the past month I’ve been having trouble with wretched dysphoric mood states. I don’t know if it should be classified as a mixed state condition, but it is hell to experience and it is hell for my wife when I’m screaming 24/7. I’ve had some breakthroughs over the past couple of days and I’m doing fairly well today.
Sorry to hear about that, Ron. That rage state is so hard on the body. I become a real harpy when I'm on my way down into a black hole and usually lose a few friends (bah! they weren't true friends anyway, so bleahhhgh!). Sometimes it the prelude to a mixed depression where I no longer notice anyone outside of my private little hell, but sometimes it just hangs around and then passes on. Everything - noises, traffic, bumping into things, really pisses me off, and everyone gets reamed, especially my long-suffering husband. I scream and become vitriolic and say things I'm really sorry for later. But let's face it, everyone has their stuff and sometimes he's a real jerk.
About the nutrients pooping out, yeah, me too. But if I don't take them things get worse. The neuro-nutrients seem promising. I'm working with one called Neurozyme from www.new-chapter.com (actually, I get it from www.iherb.com cause they're cheaper). The ingredients look real good, but again, the bioavailability is the key. The money I spend on all this stuff...
Hope you're feeling better, Ron. Please share your breakthroughs if you feel like you want to. We need to hear these lessons from our shamans-in-training community. Good thing we have this board cause feeling rotten is so isolating. - Barbara
Posted by katia on August 5, 2003, at 17:39:38
In reply to Med free and misdirect » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on August 5, 2003, at 11:51:59
Hi Barbara,
If I don't catch you before you go on vacation, we'll talk when you get back. I'm not doing so well. I went from about two really good days to one where the euphoria feeling was edged with raciness and then one day to today - very agitated and irritable! I'm sick of this roller coaster ride. I just got my depakote in the mail today too. I think this swing of my mood is a sign that I need to take it. or at least give it a go. I swing too fast. It's not "normal" is it? I mean at least some people have a good month or two and then crash. I just go on an ultra rapid cycle it seems. God those two days felt so good! anyway, what's real happiness anyway? Was I happy and excited to be alive geniunely? or was I skirting hypomania? Maybe one way to find out is to try the depakote. But then what if it's just that med that's not for me and then I have to go through another year or more of finding the right one - when I am confused if I even have a mood disorder! There are so many influencing factors!re: your conversation with Ron below -
>>I'm convinced that we need med support while we need it, but healing the deeper limbic structures require more realms of delicacy and skill than are usually available from our pdocs.you mentioned shamanism. Have you ever been to one to try and heal the depression? I've been thinking about doing a soul retrieval for over a year. It's all so multi-layered that I'm sure everything plays a part.
anyway, the dog next door won't stop barking and I'm jumping out of my skin!we'll talk soon, I hope.
Katia
Posted by Ron Hill on August 5, 2003, at 21:58:28
In reply to Re: Best wishes to my friend B-Cat » Ron Hill, posted by Barbara Cat on August 5, 2003, at 15:14:13
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 5, 2003, at 22:03:16
In reply to Barbara's Back! » Barbara Cat, posted by nmk on August 5, 2003, at 15:07:53
Hi Nicole,
Thanks for the welcome back. I'm feeling much better. Don't know why, except for the whim of the chemistry gods.Lamictal most definitely causes anxiety, especially when starting or increasing. Some don't get jittery, but I did. It's a common topic on this board. It does go away and then you think it's not working anymore because you kinda get used to the extra zip, but it's still doing it's thing in the background. You have to go baby steps slow on it, like 12.5mg a week. This is excrutiating when you're desperate to feel better, but there's no way around it. I'm sure you've heard of the rash, which is very rare, but still a scare. I went up 25mg from 125 to 150 in one week and got the itches like a dog with fleas. Back down to 125 and get occasional prickles but not like poison ivy. The mood is holding too. I even wonder if 150 was a little too strong and set off a hypomania which usually descends into depression. Looking back, I was feeling a tad too bubbly and having too many spiritual epiphanies. Great while it lasts, but it never does.
So, good luck on lam. It's been a good drug for me. And you know how it is. You've got to give it time but if it's not going to work, you'll probably know in a month. Maybe by then they'll come out with that magic bullet we're all waiting for ;-) - Barbara
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 5, 2003, at 22:52:04
In reply to Re: Med free and misdirect » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on August 5, 2003, at 17:39:38
Hi Katia,
We're leaving in the morning so here I am instead of packing (bleagh!). I'm so sorry to hear about your downturn. It must be disappointing when you were hoping differently. We just have a chemical disorder, plain and simple. Sometimes I accept it and am grateful for the meds and not living in times when we'd be begging for alms or thrown in Bedlam. Other times I try every new thing I can't afford to find that key that's going to unlock it all for me. But no matter what esoteria I try, it doesn't stick if I don't address the chemical imbalance first.Yes, I've done soul retrieval. It helped me understand how and when I became fragmented and split off through fear as a young girl. It was a very good thing, but no, it didn't cure me and the nice effects lasted only a short time. But it was good information and I'm glad I did it. I've been in the company of some very high realized beings on this planet and they too have very dark times. Every one of them has gone through hell and back and still has to deal with intense pain. That seems to be the way it is here - the place we've chosen to come to learn those things that only our life experiences can teach us. The difference with these people is that they don't get stuck in it and just let the fear and anxiety blow through them. They quickly get back to centerpoint. Their presence is one of calm accepting joy instead of blissed out instability. Oh, that's how I long to be (there's that craving again), to just be with it and honor whatever reason it's happening, stop the frantic running from it and just LET GO. And even the desire for all that has to be let go of as well. You live in the Now and do what needs to get done in the Now. But, jeez, it's hard to remember, especially in the midst of a panic attack. Hope it doesn't take another lifetime cause I don't wanna come back here!
You ask 'what is happiness, anyway'. Well, I do know that it's not the ecstacy we crave. Ecstacy and bliss and happy HAPPY! are the polar opposites of despair and depression. The pull/push of desire/rejection for either state sets us off into a spin that keeps the cycle going. It's the craving for happiness that's actually the cause of unhappiness. I think that the key is to develop that calm clear center, the witnessing presence that observes the play and holds the center without getting lost in either polarity. The spiritual teachings help me alot. I shore up on them when I'm feeling good and I may some day be able to just sit with the shit, but until then, I give up. I need meds cause I don't know how to do it on my own.
I really do encourage you to try the soul retrieval. If you work with the right person, it will help you greatly, as long as you don't expect it to be a miracle cure. But then again, who knows? I have considered going to Lourdes... - Barbara
Posted by katia on August 6, 2003, at 2:23:45
In reply to Re: Med free and misdirect » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on August 5, 2003, at 22:52:04
Hi Barbara,
Yes, I have finally realized that within myself - at least I did last summer when I was in "hell" - that I cannot do this without medication. That no matter what "healing" modality I choose or try won't work unless I'm getting chemical help from medication - at least for a good long time.Prior to starting the medication last summer, every second was eternal hell for me. I had completely lost my mind - howling on the floor, making noises I've never heard before, crawling from the bed to bathroom and it taking one hour, marking myself with my fingernails, crying crying crying. And in the midst of these three intense months, I listened to so many tapes, i.e. Ram Dass's lectures/talks, The Power of Now - Tolle, and Pema Chondron's "When Things Fall Apart".
I was doing everything I could to stay present during this misery and transform out of it. Cognitively, I have no idea if I moved/transformed anything, or if things could be worse now, but nothing seems to have moved things for me like addressing that I have a mood disorder and need chemical help.
On one hand, depression/bipolar has been absolute hell and it's been a driving force for me to investigate all healing modalities, finally ending with meds. but it seems to have been an impetus for a tough spiritual journey/opening as well.
As with the soul retrieval and everything else I've done - maybe on some level it will help and synergistically move/transform things in me.
know what I mean?
have a good holiday!
Katia> Hi Katia,
> We're leaving in the morning so here I am instead of packing (bleagh!). I'm so sorry to hear about your downturn. It must be disappointing when you were hoping differently. We just have a chemical disorder, plain and simple. Sometimes I accept it and am grateful for the meds and not living in times when we'd be begging for alms or thrown in Bedlam. Other times I try every new thing I can't afford to find that key that's going to unlock it all for me. But no matter what esoteria I try, it doesn't stick if I don't address the chemical imbalance first.
>
> Yes, I've done soul retrieval. It helped me understand how and when I became fragmented and split off through fear as a young girl. It was a very good thing, but no, it didn't cure me and the nice effects lasted only a short time. But it was good information and I'm glad I did it. I've been in the company of some very high realized beings on this planet and they too have very dark times. Every one of them has gone through hell and back and still has to deal with intense pain. That seems to be the way it is here - the place we've chosen to come to learn those things that only our life experiences can teach us. The difference with these people is that they don't get stuck in it and just let the fear and anxiety blow through them. They quickly get back to centerpoint. Their presence is one of calm accepting joy instead of blissed out instability. Oh, that's how I long to be (there's that craving again), to just be with it and honor whatever reason it's happening, stop the frantic running from it and just LET GO. And even the desire for all that has to be let go of as well. You live in the Now and do what needs to get done in the Now. But, jeez, it's hard to remember, especially in the midst of a panic attack. Hope it doesn't take another lifetime cause I don't wanna come back here!
>
> You ask 'what is happiness, anyway'. Well, I do know that it's not the ecstacy we crave. Ecstacy and bliss and happy HAPPY! are the polar opposites of despair and depression. The pull/push of desire/rejection for either state sets us off into a spin that keeps the cycle going. It's the craving for happiness that's actually the cause of unhappiness. I think that the key is to develop that calm clear center, the witnessing presence that observes the play and holds the center without getting lost in either polarity. The spiritual teachings help me alot. I shore up on them when I'm feeling good and I may some day be able to just sit with the shit, but until then, I give up. I need meds cause I don't know how to do it on my own.
>
> I really do encourage you to try the soul retrieval. If you work with the right person, it will help you greatly, as long as you don't expect it to be a miracle cure. But then again, who knows? I have considered going to Lourdes... - Barbara
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