![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4425 to 4449 of 10407. Go back in thread:
Posted by racergurl74 on June 30, 2003, at 15:59:22
In reply to Re: Effexor, Prozac, Zoloft...HELP!, posted by melley on June 30, 2003, at 13:06:42
I agree with the Mars/Venus story. I read the book and it changed my outlook 100%. Dr. Phil also helps women understand men and their differences. I haven't read his book but I know he has one. I watch his show and he helps me. Men ARE different than women and sometimes the way we (women) react to them controls how they treat us.
Posted by zinya on June 30, 2003, at 21:48:14
In reply to Re: Effexor, Prozac, Zoloft...HELP!, posted by jtc on June 29, 2003, at 23:42:06
hi JTC,
gosh, i'm just back to our line here and i can't believe so much time has lapsed since i last wrote and wonder what that itself says about where i'm at with this drug that i was so unaware of how many days had gone without touching bases here. Hm
more on that in a bit or another post.
I'm so moved by your situation, jtc. I was in a very emotionally and occasionally physically abusive marriage myself, eons ago now, but it is etched enough that i can't help projecting and feeling the trauma of your angst. But i also don't want to presume anything given that of course every situation is unique. (e.g., I had migraines the whole last 5 years of my marriage; they stopped about a month after i left. But i don't say this in any way to encourage separation; as you'll see in a minute i root for trying other things.)
I saw that Cher had responded to you so I've also read her post first before writing and I quite agree with what she said, and will say a bit more in responding to her...
But a few other reactions: Do you ever get more than the 5-1/2 hrs sleep a night you referred to? Over time, it seems that that could be a deficit that is making you never feel truly "fresh" -- and i realize, believe me, that even if you think that might be a factor, it doesn't mean there's a solution. Some people are truly great and fine on 5 hrs a night -- and i myself used to be for long stretches at least -- but i also know that some can convince themselves they're okay but in fact that just isn't enough sleep to not be taking a toll that might not be obvious but is there...
Second, and if you've read me before i realize i might start sounding like a chamber of commerce for counselors or something cuz i keep making this pitch, but I sure hope you're seeing a marriage counselor that maybe you didn't mention ??? Your situation cries out for at least giving that a try -- and if your shrink hasn't even suggested that, i'd think less of your shrink if i were you (excuse the gratuitous "extra" :)) ... My husband refused to see a shrink until it was too late and i'd reached the point that i just left. Then he was not only willing but begging to try therapy and i did but it really was too late (although actually i think we simply were never a good pairing to begin with so it really didn't matter). But i would understand if that was your situation - i have married friends and know just generally too that it's almost always a man's reaction to drag his heels about thinking counseling/therapy would provide any answers. But i'd say it's a must, if i dare to speak so boldly without knowing you or your situation. Your kids need for you both to do it, and it's clearly a need for both, not just one of you, to undertake. My own preference would always be for a therapy situation where you occasionally meet the therapist together but also meet individually as well -- and it's important that you both at least respect if not outright like the counselor. I urge you to consider this if you haven't already.
And part of it is that i get the sense that you are (as many women do) taking this all on as your problem that drugs alone will deal with when you have real communication traumas here on a daily basis that need urgent attention, it seems to me. And without shame or blame. NONE of us get marital communication training. Everyone (or almost) goes into marriage with expectations that are mostly unrealizable. And the result is old tapes of one's own childhood instincts about what spouses do, based largely on one's own parents' patterns -- which are always totally different than your spouse's parents' patterns were and thus lead to mismatched old tapes each of you operate on, largely unconsciously. And i think we all need and can benefit from outside guidance and perspective in order to try to figure out when half the time a husband is yelling at a wife, half of what he's angry about is old stuff from his own chldhood surfacing and turning "normal" disagreement into the over-the-top kind of stuff. And same for wives with husbands. Actually, my view is that in almost any relationship, when someone really Loses it, flies off the handle, "overreacts" to situations with excess anger or rage or disrespectful response (or "treating the other like a child"), that it's almost always cuz of something in their own childhood that is getting tapped. And that half the battle is taking the time and with guidance from a therapist to at least recognize those flash points as being largely about old stuff... and how it can sabotage a current dynamic that doesn't merit and won't survive such strain. (The ole 6 people enter a marriage bed "joke")
I hope i'm not overreacting here myself to your situation, but this is what I hear and offer as my instinctive response to what you've written.
Wishing you well, sending big hugs of warm support, and hoping I have overstepped,
zinya
p.s. One other suggestion: I think it is underestimated how important it is to LISTEN to one's children. If you haven't done this already -- or even if you have, doing it often is good too, I would encourage you to ask your 9 yr old to tell you her anxieties, what exactly she fears might happen, how she reacts when she hears the discord or sees you upset. Let her talk for as long as she can and wants without interrupting her or explaining or defending until she "runs out of things to say" and then first tell her back what you hear her saying, to acknowledge that you HEAR her so she feels heard -- that, imo, is almost as important as anything -- and THEN, only THEN, respond to her concerns and give her your explanations and tell her YOUR feelings (about what she has said), etc. I think this is an almost guaranteed way of helping kids know that they can tell you their fears without getting 'cut off' or shot shrift, etc. and kids need it -- to feel heard -- SO much more than adults ever realize or make time for. It's not something to feel guilty about, but to try to improve as soon and much as possible.
(more 2 cents' worth from yours truly :))
z
Posted by zinya on June 30, 2003, at 22:01:30
In reply to Re: Effexor, Prozac, Zoloft...HELP!, posted by jtc on June 29, 2003, at 23:42:06
p.s. JTC:
Obviously, the "technique" for listening that i suggested to try with your 9-year-old would be something to do in modified form with your 4-year-old too as she's already at an age that she can start having anxieties she might not be voicing, and it would be good for her to learn already it's truly okay for her to talk about them to you...
And the "technique" is originally one for use with couples, so if you follow Cher's advice and encourage having the conflicts with your husband happen when you two are alone, you could also add trying this technique to the suggestions Cher already made. Model it by asking him first to be the talker, ask him to lay out what's bothering him, listen to him without interrupting, and then tell him back what you hear him saying, let him "correct" anything he realizes by hearing back from you might sound different than he intended, and then respond to his "complaints" -- by telling him now it's his turn to listen until you finish and then he can tell you what he heard you saying, etc. THEN if you have your own extra issues with him that didn't already emerge in responding to what he brought up, you can repeat the whole cycle by starting with your turn to tell him what's bothering you about him (some of which may already have come up so don't rehash again in same setting).
I do think your marital situation needs outside counseling from what i hear, but this is a strategy often employed and imo the single best 'technique' any duo can learn to apply -- in either "set-aside time" in a kind of formal way following all the "rules" or as needed, in an adapted way that gradually teaches people to listen more fully without interruption before responding and to first say back what you heard bfore rebutting or countering...
well, i guess that's more 4 cents' worth :)
z
Posted by zinya on June 30, 2003, at 22:40:45
In reply to Re: Effexor, Prozac, Zoloft...HELP! JTC, posted by CherC68 on June 30, 2003, at 11:10:13
hi Cher,
gosh, i'm learning new things about people here today by the bushel... I just wrote back JTC directly and added a few things to your encouragements here, which i wholly support too.
But i also wanting to comment to you directly on hearing what you've said about the weight issue in particular. I've also "been there" and empathize with what it does to one's psyche and how it alone can cause depression but i do also think it can be a symptom and effect of depression as much as a cause. And in addition to the vital importance of exercise, i totally agree, the first other thing i thought of as I read your words here was to wonder if you've ever read about what some doctors in published books have called "yeast syndrome" -- not yeast infection but yeast SYNDROME (or Candida).... Have you heard of it?
If you've had yeast infections it could be an additional sign of the broader syndrome -- the first yeast infection of my life at age 42 after 11 days on the wrong antibiotic for a bronchial thing led me to discover the whole broader syndrome and a doctor who totally believed in it and getting and reading a couple of books on it. And while traditionalist doctors probably still are clueless about it, I think there's some credence to it. AND the theory of it accounts for some propensities toward depression, etc. as well.
But it's a much broader thing than yeast infection and men can have the yeast syndrome too. Basically it manifests in a craving for certain foods which are yeast-producing in the body -- which doesn't mean the prodcuts themselves have yeast in them but they are converted in the body into yeast and in the intestinal tract can trigger an insatiable self-perpetuating appetite for that which "feeds it" ... It's a complete imbalance in the system based largely on sugars and also fungal things like mushrooms or bacon or also fermented things like vinegar. To this day, i still avoid mushrooms, vinegar and the third no-no food which escapes me now :)) BAck in '89 when i fell upon this, i pretty rigidly adhered to the diet (which isn't really that hard - it's eliminating selective things but it's a little tricky ... but IF it could be a factor, it could be worth factoring in awareness of this syndrome in choosing what you eat and don't eat as yet another component of dealing with body imbalances. I do think that is another one. I did after a couple years resume some of the things that i'd given up for that year or two but i think (knock on wood, 13 years later) i did break the worst of that cycle, as i've never had the same kind of craving cycles ever again. It made quite a difference in my life.
So, for what it's worth... I'm afraid my copy of the book is packed away .. OH, but wait, I just remembered there's a technique here - if I put it in double quotes, the post will locate it in amazon.com, so what the hell :)) ... I think the one I liked the best was "The Yeast Connection" by Crook (I see he has several books now and the one I read is probably outdated -- I checked one at random but you could glance through them all on amazon and see if any interested you -- or whoever's reading this and interested too) and the other was called "The Yeast Syndrome"
many hugs and more later,
z
Posted by RealTim on July 1, 2003, at 0:03:36
In reply to Anyone had success on Effexor XR? , posted by jp on October 24, 1999, at 14:59:14
I just wanted to share in case someone else has similar symptoms and wants to quit.
First, I started on Effexor for job-related anxiety. I had been feeling better for 4-6 months when I noticed that even being late for a dose would result in severe withdrawls symptoms. Flu-like in terms of nausea, light headed, dizzy, no appetite. The worst was the sleeplessness, and when sleep did come it was disturbed by vivid nightmares.
It took missing 2 doses to realize there was a pattern, and it was the missed dose. I just figured I had a 24 hour flu bug the first time.
I also had experienced weight gain (180lbs to 200), digestive problems (gas mostly) and sleep problems (not enough of it).
I tried quitting cold turkey when I did my homework on this, but by the 3rd day nausea was so severe I chickened out and swallowed a pill.
Since then, I have gradually decreased my dose from 150mg to 37.5mg. When I went from 150mg to 100mg there was no side effects. Same with 100 to 75. But when I cut down to 37.5 I was feeling intermittent withdrawal symptoms, but nowhere near on the same scale as before.
I did 37.5 for about 4 weeks and then stopped. That was a week ago. At first the withdrawal came pretty strong, but only half as bad as before. Dizzy
After three days it got modestly better, and each day the symptoms would be a little less. The best part, sleep was never that bad. A little rough the first night, but nothing like when I missed that 150mg dose.
So based on another posting this means I am one of 5% of Euro descent who is a "fast metabolizer"?
I'll post again once the symptoms are totally gone.
Posted by zinya on July 1, 2003, at 2:39:09
In reply to Re: Effexor, Prozac, Zoloft...HELP!, posted by Susy on June 30, 2003, at 14:23:27
Gosh, Susy, lo siento mucho!
(Be careful, my Spanish is limited :)
Do you have insurance here? Could you go to a place like UCLA for treatment where a larger range of doctors might be of some help?
I had a gynecologist there once who was quite good and a good basis for referral then elsewhere if you need to see other specialists.
What most alarms me is your saying you've had diarrhea for a MONTH! Wow. That sounds potentially serious. And if you've told that to a doctor and nothing has been tested, then I think that is a doctor who isn't treating you seriously. I would think your goal should be to find either an endocrinologist or a psychiatrist ... and have someone check this diarrhea situation and probably the headaches too. It sounds like they've persisted way too long.
If you're anywhere near UCLA and you could be covered to go there, and you were interested, I could look up the name again of my gynecologist there -- I haven't seen her in over 10 years and i'm not sure she's still there but she might be, and I do have her name somewhere.
If I've said anything you don't understand, ask me. I can try to resay it in Spanish (I speak Portuguese and sometimes I can wing it -- improvise -- in Spanish).
con abrazos!
zinya
Posted by jtc on July 1, 2003, at 7:52:58
In reply to Re: Effexor, Prozac, Zoloft...HELP! » jtc, posted by zinya on June 30, 2003, at 21:48:14
> hi JTC,
>
> gosh, i'm just back to our line here and i can't believe so much time has lapsed since i last wrote and wonder what that itself says about where i'm at with this drug that i was so unaware of how many days had gone without touching bases here. Hm
>
> more on that in a bit or another post.
>
> I'm so moved by your situation, jtc. I was in a very emotionally and occasionally physically abusive marriage myself, eons ago now, but it is etched enough that i can't help projecting and feeling the trauma of your angst. But i also don't want to presume anything given that of course every situation is unique. (e.g., I had migraines the whole last 5 years of my marriage; they stopped about a month after i left. But i don't say this in any way to encourage separation; as you'll see in a minute i root for trying other things.)
>
> I saw that Cher had responded to you so I've also read her post first before writing and I quite agree with what she said, and will say a bit more in responding to her...
>
> But a few other reactions: Do you ever get more than the 5-1/2 hrs sleep a night you referred to? Over time, it seems that that could be a deficit that is making you never feel truly "fresh" -- and i realize, believe me, that even if you think that might be a factor, it doesn't mean there's a solution. Some people are truly great and fine on 5 hrs a night -- and i myself used to be for long stretches at least -- but i also know that some can convince themselves they're okay but in fact that just isn't enough sleep to not be taking a toll that might not be obvious but is there...
>
> Second, and if you've read me before i realize i might start sounding like a chamber of commerce for counselors or something cuz i keep making this pitch, but I sure hope you're seeing a marriage counselor that maybe you didn't mention ??? Your situation cries out for at least giving that a try -- and if your shrink hasn't even suggested that, i'd think less of your shrink if i were you (excuse the gratuitous "extra" :)) ... My husband refused to see a shrink until it was too late and i'd reached the point that i just left. Then he was not only willing but begging to try therapy and i did but it really was too late (although actually i think we simply were never a good pairing to begin with so it really didn't matter). But i would understand if that was your situation - i have married friends and know just generally too that it's almost always a man's reaction to drag his heels about thinking counseling/therapy would provide any answers. But i'd say it's a must, if i dare to speak so boldly without knowing you or your situation. Your kids need for you both to do it, and it's clearly a need for both, not just one of you, to undertake. My own preference would always be for a therapy situation where you occasionally meet the therapist together but also meet individually as well -- and it's important that you both at least respect if not outright like the counselor. I urge you to consider this if you haven't already.
>
> And part of it is that i get the sense that you are (as many women do) taking this all on as your problem that drugs alone will deal with when you have real communication traumas here on a daily basis that need urgent attention, it seems to me. And without shame or blame. NONE of us get marital communication training. Everyone (or almost) goes into marriage with expectations that are mostly unrealizable. And the result is old tapes of one's own childhood instincts about what spouses do, based largely on one's own parents' patterns -- which are always totally different than your spouse's parents' patterns were and thus lead to mismatched old tapes each of you operate on, largely unconsciously. And i think we all need and can benefit from outside guidance and perspective in order to try to figure out when half the time a husband is yelling at a wife, half of what he's angry about is old stuff from his own chldhood surfacing and turning "normal" disagreement into the over-the-top kind of stuff. And same for wives with husbands. Actually, my view is that in almost any relationship, when someone really Loses it, flies off the handle, "overreacts" to situations with excess anger or rage or disrespectful response (or "treating the other like a child"), that it's almost always cuz of something in their own childhood that is getting tapped. And that half the battle is taking the time and with guidance from a therapist to at least recognize those flash points as being largely about old stuff... and how it can sabotage a current dynamic that doesn't merit and won't survive such strain. (The ole 6 people enter a marriage bed "joke")
>
> I hope i'm not overreacting here myself to your situation, but this is what I hear and offer as my instinctive response to what you've written.
>
> Wishing you well, sending big hugs of warm support, and hoping I have overstepped,
>
> zinya
>
> p.s. One other suggestion: I think it is underestimated how important it is to LISTEN to one's children. If you haven't done this already -- or even if you have, doing it often is good too, I would encourage you to ask your 9 yr old to tell you her anxieties, what exactly she fears might happen, how she reacts when she hears the discord or sees you upset. Let her talk for as long as she can and wants without interrupting her or explaining or defending until she "runs out of things to say" and then first tell her back what you hear her saying, to acknowledge that you HEAR her so she feels heard -- that, imo, is almost as important as anything -- and THEN, only THEN, respond to her concerns and give her your explanations and tell her YOUR feelings (about what she has said), etc. I think this is an almost guaranteed way of helping kids know that they can tell you their fears without getting 'cut off' or shot shrift, etc. and kids need it -- to feel heard -- SO much more than adults ever realize or make time for. It's not something to feel guilty about, but to try to improve as soon and much as possible.
>
> (more 2 cents' worth from yours truly :))
> zHi Zinya,
I truly appreciate your input. I have suggested counseling for my husband and I but he thinks I am the one who needs to go to counseling and not him so I in turn get depressed and feel stuck in the situation and then have to start taking meds again. I am on klonopin right now, 1 mg a day. My psychiatrist suggested to just take the klonopin for a while rather than going back on antidepressant. I just stopped effexor about 3 months ago. Anyway my husband says that he has always "babied" me and he is just not going to do it anymore. He says that I need to stand up to him about things. It is almost as if he wants to make me mad but then he says he loves me and our girls very much. He just thinks there is nothing wrong with what he is doing. When his parents used to be married his father used to treat his mother the same way he is treating me, teasing her, etc. He is a lot like his mother and his father both. I have known them all a very long time, about 25 years. He is my only boyfriend, the only person I have ever been with or dated. We have too much of a history together to let it end. I am just going to have to try to ignore some things he says to me. That is what my psychiatrist has told me also, that I let things people say or do bother me too much. As for my daughter, I always talk to her at length about her feelings which is the opposite of what my husband does. He thinks I should not go on and on with her about things. He just pushes under the rug for later, and we all know what can happen later on if things are not dealt with. So I do not listen to him when he is trying to tell me how to talk to our daughter. I just use my best judgment which may not be the best thing but it is all that I know to do. I think my husband is dealing with a lot of childhood stuff, as I am also, but he will sit and tell me that his childhood has nothing to do with it. His parents were married for 35 years and then split up. My husband is 39 soon to be 40 and he just will not talk to me about anything that his mother or father are doing (such as their lives) because he thinks I am going to tell everyone and talk about them. We do not even live near them. They are in Florida and we are in North Carolina. He just does not trust me and I do not trust him either sometimes. I think we do need to go counseling. I am going to suggest that again to him but I am almost sure of what he will say, that I need to go and not him. It really is a money thing with him where he thinks it is just a waste of money and that the counselor is just trying to get you to keep coming back to get your money. Perhaps I will go when I can afford it. I think our real problem is money. We are in a house that we cannot really afford. He says we can afford it but we don't have finances to do anything else. He says he is happy to be in a nice house and I do like our neighborhood but it is getting to the point that I do not like the house anymore because of the money problems. I really don't like to say this about my husband but he is selfish. We were going to go the Florida Keys for a family vacation but he decided it was too expensive to stay there, we were only going for two nights and visiting family in Palm Beach, but the next week he bought a bought a 600.00 racing bike because he has gotten interested in triathlons which is great but if I had purchased something that was 600.00 it would have been a BIG problem. He said he would enjoy his bike so much more than spending 300.00 on a two night in the Florida Keys. If that does not sound selfish then I don't know what does. I better go before I get any more angrier. But anyway, sorry to keep rambling on and on. Thanks so much for your advice and I will think about it. I wish the best for you and keep me posted...
jtcp.s. I think I am going to try to go back to school because if I had a better job then I would not have to ask him for money. He thinks I just spend money like crazy but it is all for my girls (clothes, books, etc..) I also thinks he likes having control over me with the money situation.
Also to Cher, Thanks so much for your advice. It helps me so much to read your postings and I wish the best for you also. Keep up the exercise, I have been running about 5-7 miles a week because I think I am going to try to do a 5K run in September in Wilmington, NC. Anyway take care and keep me posted, jtc
Posted by jtc on July 1, 2003, at 7:57:29
In reply to Re: Effexor, Prozac, Zoloft...HELP! p.s. to » jtc, posted by zinya on June 30, 2003, at 22:01:30
> p.s. JTC:
>
> Obviously, the "technique" for listening that i suggested to try with your 9-year-old would be something to do in modified form with your 4-year-old too as she's already at an age that she can start having anxieties she might not be voicing, and it would be good for her to learn already it's truly okay for her to talk about them to you...
>
> And the "technique" is originally one for use with couples, so if you follow Cher's advice and encourage having the conflicts with your husband happen when you two are alone, you could also add trying this technique to the suggestions Cher already made. Model it by asking him first to be the talker, ask him to lay out what's bothering him, listen to him without interrupting, and then tell him back what you hear him saying, let him "correct" anything he realizes by hearing back from you might sound different than he intended, and then respond to his "complaints" -- by telling him now it's his turn to listen until you finish and then he can tell you what he heard you saying, etc. THEN if you have your own extra issues with him that didn't already emerge in responding to what he brought up, you can repeat the whole cycle by starting with your turn to tell him what's bothering you about him (some of which may already have come up so don't rehash again in same setting).
>
> I do think your marital situation needs outside counseling from what i hear, but this is a strategy often employed and imo the single best 'technique' any duo can learn to apply -- in either "set-aside time" in a kind of formal way following all the "rules" or as needed, in an adapted way that gradually teaches people to listen more fully without interruption before responding and to first say back what you heard bfore rebutting or countering...
>
> well, i guess that's more 4 cents' worth :)
> zZ,
Thanks for the advice. I will try it. I really appreciate it. Thanks again and God Bless...
jtc
Posted by jtc on July 1, 2003, at 8:09:14
In reply to Re: Effexor, Prozac, Zoloft...HELP! » Susy, posted by zinya on July 1, 2003, at 2:39:09
> Gosh, Susy, lo siento mucho!
>
> (Be careful, my Spanish is limited :)
>
> Do you have insurance here? Could you go to a place like UCLA for treatment where a larger range of doctors might be of some help?
>
> I had a gynecologist there once who was quite good and a good basis for referral then elsewhere if you need to see other specialists.
>
> What most alarms me is your saying you've had diarrhea for a MONTH! Wow. That sounds potentially serious. And if you've told that to a doctor and nothing has been tested, then I think that is a doctor who isn't treating you seriously. I would think your goal should be to find either an endocrinologist or a psychiatrist ... and have someone check this diarrhea situation and probably the headaches too. It sounds like they've persisted way too long.
>
> If you're anywhere near UCLA and you could be covered to go there, and you were interested, I could look up the name again of my gynecologist there -- I haven't seen her in over 10 years and i'm not sure she's still there but she might be, and I do have her name somewhere.
>
> If I've said anything you don't understand, ask me. I can try to resay it in Spanish (I speak Portuguese and sometimes I can wing it -- improvise -- in Spanish).
>
> con abrazos!
> zinyaHi Susy,
I agree with Zinya. If you have insurance you should go to your primary care physician and get a referral to a psychiatrist who can help with you medication, if you feel that is what you need. I have panic and anxiety disorder with depression. I have taken Luvox in the past because my psychiatrist thinks that I have OCD symptoms where I ruminate and worry about things I really cannot do anything about. I have tried Zoloft, Paxil, and Serzone but they made me feel weird. I just went off Effexor after taking it for 10 months. I don't know if I would recommend Effexor though because of the side effects, for myself anyway. It did help me once the side effects went away but when my doctor decided to take me off of it, it was very difficult to get off of it. I think the Luvox helped me the most. I took it for about 3-4 years until I decided to have my second child. I even took it from the time I was four months pregnant until my eighth month of pregnancy. My four year old is fine except she has a temper, but don't they all...Anyway I am now on klonopin only, for anxiety and I still have the depression but I have started running and trying to exercise and I think this is helping. Good luck and keep us posted and also men do not tend to understand the anxiety disorder and depression unless they have experienced it themselves, at least that is that way my husband is. Good luck and God Bless you and keep us posted....
jtc
Posted by melley on July 1, 2003, at 10:45:50
In reply to Re: Effexor, Prozac, Zoloft...HELP!, posted by jtc on July 1, 2003, at 7:52:58
I feel very badly for you. I think it is so difficlt for men to admit they are depressed. My husband and I had much the same dynamic. That "teasing" could come under the realm of verbal abuse. Anyway, I had a "breakdown" of sorts. Depression, panic attacks. The psychiatrist talked with my husband and explained that the home environment could create a situation like that. Sure, I had the predisposition to it but living in that kind of evironment brought it to the fore. My husband, much to his credit, is now on medication for his depression, and, believe it or not, is now going to a therapist. I would never have believed it possible before last year. I think men show their depression in different ways than women do. For example, my husband immersed himself in his work, was often irritable with the kids, unable to relax, critical of everything I did, or didn't do. Now he is much more relaxed and it has helped our family so much. At 40 he wouldn't have done it, at 46 he was able to.
I can imagine it must be very difficult for you. My heart goes out to you. m
Posted by zinya on July 1, 2003, at 11:59:31
In reply to Re: Effexor, Prozac, Zoloft...HELP!, posted by jtc on July 1, 2003, at 7:52:58
hi jtc!
well, once again: Gosh.
First, and not to get into your finances so you don't even have to answer this question, but have you taken advantage of refinancing your home at low rates? I do understand that money crunches are hard realities that are often even causes of tensions but certainly make them worse. And a certain amount of denial your husband might be in about being in a house that he "secretly" realizes is a source of pressure can be a part of his own stressors making him get volatile or erratic. And sometimes the responses can be precisely in the direction that makes things worse (like his bike-buying). There are so many signs here, which you already realize it seems, that -- as is always the case in any duo -- it's never just one person's problem nor one person's cause.
However, if he adamantly refuses to see a counselor, I think you must find a way to see one yourself, and hope that he may come to see differently and join you. If you could find a counselor you imagine he would ultimately relate to or feel comfortable with or at least respect as well ... or sometimes it's possible to find a husband-wife team of therapists where you might see the wife and hope eventually he would see the husband. But I hear you not only taking this -- or being told to take this -- all on yourself and that there's inevitable anger there is being told that you should deny your own senses of what is needed -- and then you, as you say, are turning that anger inward into getting more depressed. It may not even be as much a biochemical kind of depression as it is a very natural depression you are responding to based on the situation.
I certainly don't understand these things very well as I'm just now -- having about 6 false starts of trying anti-deps that i couldn't tolerate and also getting no relief -- This is the first time i'm taking the time to go so slowly and give every effort to see if indeed what i've been dealing with is biochemical, which i've started to think may have been the case all along.
But i also think biochemical ("clinical") depression is likely being over-diagnosed ... I read some on this website whose doctors seem to have turned them to anti-deps very readily in the face of what sound to me like crises of depression grounded in their domestic realities where it may be -- but what do i know? -- that it's not at base biochemical imbalance. HOWEVER, that said, i do have the sense that over time, a depressing domestic situation or a major grief of loss can probably also trigger biochemical changes and wind up leading to a real reason for anti-deps too. But i think if there is a clear everyday stressor -- and nothing more stressful than a communication gap -- I recall so vividly the psychic and emotional pain of feeling alone under our married roof, a much more painful feeling of aloneness than actually living alone, and the sharp disjunct of feeling that every day or feeling that it is so unpredictable, that it can flair at any moment, leads to that sense of lack of control over your own peace of mind, to suddenly be the target of attack, to being accused of things, feeling on the defensive, etc etc... It's the worst kind of stress. And the link to depression is inevitable. But, as with one particular married friends of mine, I've felt as long as i've known them, that all their flare-ups are based in "a failure to communicate" but that there is an underlying love and passion there that what is needed is really mostly learning to see how each one is communicating and learning new ways of doing so more "functionally" instead of dysfunctionally. And it's something that would still be a problem for each person outside the marriage, so leaving the marriage isn't a "solution." Hence, it's vital to try to come to terms with those ways of communicating -- i think personally usually the biggest problem is in learning how to listen... We all take listening for granted, no one ever teaches us "how to listen" as if it were innate, but it's not ... So often people listen with so many unseen agendas filtering how they listen and hearing things that aren't there, etc. etc...
Nothing is a more important gift to yourselves and your kids than recognizing that there's always more to learn about how we communicate and to make that commitment.
I realize you already know all this, but I'm just babbling here more about it with the hope of bolstering your inner voice that tells you this is a priority that is already overdue and needs to find a way, whether it means starting on your own to get to a therapist... Maybe getting a book -- Is he someone who would read a book at least? I personally found the books of Nathaniel Branden to be quite helpful as a starting place. When my marriage finally split, a book which was pretty pivotal to me and which my husband read and opened his eyes to at least see his need to go to therapy was Branden's book "The Disowned Self" .. . It includes a metaphor Branden makes which I think hits home with men in particular, at least i think it may have been key to what helped my ex-husband at least realize how dysfunctionally he had been dealing with his own emotional life: It was the "simple" metaphor of how to drive in a skid (like on ice) and how the only way (counter-intuitive) to keep control of the car is to drive INTO the skid, not to try to turn the wheel in the opposite direction. For Branden, that is symbolic of the hard lesson with our emotions, that if we don't turn the wheel in the direction of the emotions, where they're surfacing from but try to turn the wheel away from them, thinking that that will give us 'control', in fact it's a false illusion and we make ourselves more unstable and risk 'overturning the car'. Men even more than women, as a rule, are raised as little boys to think that emotions are to be avoided at all costs -- all the classic "Boys don't cry" "Don't be afraid" etc etc... but girls get a lot of those messages too -- plus girls more often too get "Don't be angry" "Don't you dare tell me x or y" and all kinds of early messages that teach us all more or less to think emotions should be suppress, the worst of all "shoulds" which are all red flags to our peril when we start living more and more a life of "shoulds" that wind up becoming huge sources of anger and depression.
Subsequently, I've taught family communication and used in teaching key portions of another, more recent book of Branden's called "The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem". And it's organized by chapters focusing on marital and parent-child, etc. etc. You can even approach it with your husband initially, if it helps him to "rationalize" it, by pointing to the need for thinking about your daughters' self-esteem.
I realize 'self-esteem' has become pop jargon, and unfortunately become a term too glibly tossed around and wrongly used by some who think it means "praising" people or just teaching kids to think they're great -- which is a totally superficial application of the real and solid and realistic bases of self-esteem. Branden was one of the first if not the first back in the 70's to stress the sources of self-esteem and very practical ways of understanding and communicating in marriages and parent-child dynamics to flush out some of the unseen ways that we undermine it in ourselves and others often unwittingly. These days I realize there are a zillion "self-help" books on these areas and maybe you've already read some. But for what it's worth, these are some ideas...
Well, i certainly don't want to come across as making this sound like there are "easy answers" or "prescriptions" for any of this, nor to make it sound like i'm overreacting. I hear you saying there's love and caring in your home too, but i do hear that, as in many many many families, it starts to become separate dyads or triads where mom and the kids have their own good relationship, dad and the kids have theirs, but mom and dad start turning to the kids for finding their sense of love because they feel a wall between the spouses ... and that's a huge warning sign.
As an article i always gave my class wisely pointed out, of all the gifts to a child's growth and self-esteem, the single most important is the marital model of how adults interact and respect. Kids need to feel -- counter to what many tell themselves -- that mom and dad are most important to each other, NOT that mom or dad looks to the kids as being most important. A child's greatest security is feeling mom and dad are 'solid'. And not the facade of solid, as often happens, cuz kids know the real thing or not. Bandaids, they see right through, "secretly." It's vital to think of it as the most important gift to your kids that you and your husband find the way to communicate that will give that security to your kids, so if your husband won't do it for you or for himself, you might even -- either by finding a book that resonates with you and leaving it lying around :)) where he might pick it up too, or by finding a way to get him to agree to join you -- convince him you need him to give "his side of the story" to help a therapist also help this communication process.
Sorry, I'm rambling on here forever. I hope i don't make any of this sound like "Here's the answer." I know none of this is easy.
But you have my wholehearted support, jtc, and i'm thinking of you with caring and sending a strong embrace,
zinya
Posted by zinya on July 1, 2003, at 22:13:37
In reply to Re: Effexor, Prozac, Zoloft...HELP! » jtc, posted by melley on July 1, 2003, at 10:45:50
hi all,
I'm curious if anyone has ever noticed that as they worked up through dosages of effexor if they found themselves getting more easily winded?? I'm not sure if it's my imagination or if i'm comparing apples and oranges cuz maybe i exerted myself more today than a week ago but i do a comparable amount of time gardening one day each week for nearly 2 hrs, but it seems like for each of the last 3 weeks i've gotten more and more having to sit down just literally winded by the time i'm done.
Is this anything anyone else ever noticed? It just today dawned on me it might be related to effexor.
I just raised my dose on Sun. night -- although you'll probably laugh given how slow i'm going. I started at 19 mg, then to 37.5, then last week a few days at 50 mg (splitting a 150 into 3rds) and now up to 56 mg (which i do by putting a 150 plus a 75 i still had and splitting in 4ths :)) ... The next jump will be to 75 ... But i know from past anti-dep experience, as i've said before, that i had too sensitive a reaction and side effects so i'm taking it ultra slow... When i got the new prescrip of 150 mg capsules, the pharmacist did confirm for me that there's no problem with splitting them into granules and taking the granules loose on the nights i don't have a capsule to put them back into. The time release is in the coating on each granule.
I have a system now, btw, with four little glass custard cups i pour the granules out into and divvy them up til they look almost the same amount in each little dish, then scoop them back into the original capsules except for the one left over that i just down the granules loose ... My crazy system for "going slow" :)
But it is going to be nice when i move up to 75 and i purposely saved a whole week of 75 mg capsules so i can just take them nightly without any dividing of granules. Funny how "treats" can get so weird.
But, anyway, i am now on my 3rd level and i just wonder if that could have anything to do with this windedness. Otherwise, going up to 56, the only side effect i had was feeling dizzy and kind of zonky yesterday, but it only lasted one day and today had no noticeable side effects.
well, that's all from here. I hope everyone's doin' okay. Hope my long-winded answers earlier didn't zonk everybody out :) ... I'm surprised to see no new posts today.
hugs to all,
zinya
Posted by sierra1 on July 2, 2003, at 17:25:20
In reply to Anyone had success on Effexor XR? , posted by jp on October 24, 1999, at 14:59:14
If anyone has spoken too or e-mailed with Brian Green or previous to that known as bgbham, can you please post here. I haven't heard from him for 2 days and I am very worried. thankyou to anyone that posts with info. lynn
Posted by pliney on July 2, 2003, at 22:08:24
In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?, posted by shan on January 7, 2000, at 15:01:19
> i'm kinda scared to take lithium, any info that might help? would be greatly appreciated.
> thanx :)I know lithium is a naturally occouring mineral - so that makes me a little more comfortable.
Posted by KimberlyDi on July 3, 2003, at 12:53:27
In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?, posted by pliney on July 2, 2003, at 22:08:24
I don't take Lithium but I changed the topic from Effexor to Lithium so maybe you'll get the info you need.
Good luck, Kim> > i'm kinda scared to take lithium, any info that might help? would be greatly appreciated.
> > thanx :)
>
> I know lithium is a naturally occouring mineral - so that makes me a little more comfortable.
>
>
Posted by Tiger's Dad on July 3, 2003, at 14:39:50
In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR?, posted by pliney on July 2, 2003, at 22:08:24
> > i'm kinda scared to take lithium, any info that might help? would be greatly appreciated.
> > thanx :)
>
> I know lithium is a naturally occouring mineral - so that makes me a little more comfortable.
>
>No offense, but that is hardly rational. Arsenic is naturally occuring too but you certainly wouldn't want to ingest it. That said, I do know that Lithium is often the treatment of choice for bi-polar disorder since it limits both depressive and manic swings.
Posted by lovemybabies on July 3, 2003, at 21:17:27
In reply to Re: Effexor XR Dreams......... » Rickey, posted by KimberlyDi on June 23, 2003, at 10:42:42
Hi, everybody. I just wanted to post that it's been five months and the decreased libido/inorgasmia is FINALLY gone! My husband, especially is pleased. :) The only pesky side effect that won't leave is the constipation. No matter how much water, Citrucel, etc. I consume. Anybody have great advice regarding that little dilemma? Keep the faith--I'm living proof that the libido DOES come back. I'm on 150mg, by the way.
Jen
Posted by fallsfall on July 3, 2003, at 21:35:17
In reply to lithium newbie needs feedback on it » pliney, posted by KimberlyDi on July 3, 2003, at 12:53:27
I've been taking Lithium for 8 years. It is one of the older Psych meds and has been used by many, many people. I can have some side effects, but in my case they are milder than the more "modern" meds.
I tried to stop taking it 4 years ago (or so), in hopes that I didn't need it any more. But as I reduced the dose I could tell that I really wanted to be taking it (I don't remember exactly what happened - it was a long time ago. Just that it was really obvious that it was an important med for me).
Why are you afraid to take it? What have you heard?
Posted by mercedes on July 5, 2003, at 4:14:51
In reply to Re: lithium newbie needs feedback on it - Pliney, posted by fallsfall on July 3, 2003, at 21:35:17
First I want to thank Brian, Cher, Zinya and Kimberly for your prayers and thoughts. I left Saturday 21st of June and returned Tues. July 1st. I only drove 3 hours and stayed with a friend overnight. Next day I proceeded to drive the other 2 1/2 hours to my sons house. I made it! I wasn't scared going up but coming back, I was very nervous and sleepy. I took my effexor at around 10:00 am but spent some time in the sun. I think this made me sleepy. I was going to drive the 5 hours straight. Not a good idea but I made it home. I had my pekingnese with me so I kept telling him not to sleep, talk to me, wake me up. But he ignored me, slept like a doggy.
Anyway, my grandaugher weighed 7 lbs, 6 oz. She is healthy and beautiful. I spent time in the hospital with my daughter-n-law as she had to have some blood transfusions. All in all, everything went well. I drove around to see some freinds, I even took the diamond lane once. A year ago, no one could pay me enough to get on a diamond lane. I don't really know what happened ....yes I do. I prayed to God to heal me of this fear driving and of leaving my "safe place". I also was tired of being in this prison, unable to travel anywhere, asking people to take me places for fear of having an anxioty attack. I did it and will hopefully drive more now. Well, I'm still a little scared but will take my baby steps. However this drive was a huge giant step in my life. I truly think that getting on this psycobable also helped me immensly. Just knowing I was not alone in feeling the way I do.
Thank you all for your comments, support, inquiries and for being there for me. I will try to do the same for you. Luv you all and take care.
Mercedes
Posted by rennek on July 5, 2003, at 21:51:06
In reply to Anyone had success on Effexor XR? , posted by jp on October 24, 1999, at 14:59:14
Effexor was a miracle drug for me. I took it for two years and felt great except for some sexual side effects. I stopped taking it nine months ago (for sexual reasons) and continued to feel great until two weeks ago when my extreme anxiety suddenly returned. I am back on it and pray it works like it did before. To hell with sex. Insanity is not worth it.
Posted by CherC68 on July 6, 2003, at 8:11:58
In reply to I'm back, drove by myself, 1st time in 6 yrs!, posted by mercedes on July 5, 2003, at 4:14:51
Mercedes,
I am so very happy for you! YOU DID IT! I somehow knew you could. A grandbaby is a wonderful thing to drive to. It's terrible what depression and chemical imbalances can do to a person, but oh so nice to see someone pulling out of it, and making it.You took a huge step and made it, but there is nothing wrong with going back to baby steps, to work up to another huge step sometime in the future.
Again, I am very happy for you and proud of you Mercedes. Thank you for letting us know that you made it back, safe & sound & happy with a brand new beautiful granddaughter!
Take Care,
Hugs, Cher.
Posted by mercedes on July 6, 2003, at 21:14:42
In reply to Re: Driving a problem? » mercedes, posted by brian green on June 21, 2003, at 5:14:28
Brian, I re-read my note as I also have memory problems to see what you meant by "perfect name". Was it "prison"? I would guess so. It is. It has been a prison. I used to think I was going crazy/nuts, didn't want to tell anyone and was never, ever going to get well. I took my meds with me. So....how'd your "next step" go?Mercedes
> well merc, you have the perfect name for it. and I can tell by the vibes you are sending over here in alabama that you area ready. I hope you have a great time, you inspire me to take a next step today! I will let you know what it is when I wake up fully. you are the best! take plenty of your meds with you!!!!!Let us know when you get back, and we will expect to see the baby's photo so be thinking about how you can scan or whatever.
> Brian
Posted by mercedes on July 6, 2003, at 22:25:24
In reply to Re: Effexor XR Dreams......... » Rickey, posted by brian green on June 21, 2003, at 5:20:17
Rickey, I've had vivid dreams. Just this past Friday i dreamt that my dad was in a clear body bag (he passed away 15 years ago)and my brother was standing by, said he had called the coroner. I went up close to my dad and saw that he was trying to breath. I told my brother he should have called the paramedics, NOT the coroner. He said it would cost 5 cents more a mile if the paramedics came vs. the coroner. I said "OH, ok". It was very vivid and I tried to analyze the dream. Conclusion, my brother is cheap.
MercedesI have pleasant dreams too. I think they are linked to the meds. but it don't bother me as long as I am getting better.....
p.s. Brian, you're funny, lol.> Rickey, I have not really experienced any unusual dreams since being on EFF, however I have been fine tuning on something to make me sleep, and one of those had me on top of a submarine walking a rope ladder with the other men, some of them my friends. We bought tomatoes on the way back at the curb market. Nah, nothing weird.
> Brian
Posted by mercedes on July 7, 2003, at 0:15:23
In reply to Re: I'm back, drove by myself, 1st time in 6 yrs! » mercedes, posted by CherC68 on July 6, 2003, at 8:11:58
Thank you for your confidence in me. I have always been afraid of being somewhere where I might not have control of my panic disorder, fear of having an anxiety attack, etc. I was afraid of being afraid. People and family couln't understand why I was afraid to drive long distances. Just a couple of weeks ago I was afraid to drive even 15 miles. I carry a cell phone just for that reason. It's a security blanket so to speak. This trip was a huge triumph for me. When I said I didn't want this illness/fear to control me anymore, is something my therapist tried to tell me about 5 years ago. I couln't do it then.....with the help of the meds and time, I did it.
Thanks again....mercedes
Posted by KimberlyDi on July 7, 2003, at 9:49:42
In reply to I'm back, drove by myself, 1st time in 6 yrs!, posted by mercedes on July 5, 2003, at 4:14:51
Mercedes!!! Glad you are back. Glad you conquered you fears!!!! whoooohooooo!!! Thanks for the laugh this morning re: doggy sleeping instead of keeping you awake. I bet doggy helped just by being there. I realized I flew over my hurdle also. Over a month ago I was falling apart. I made a plan, find a p-doc, therapist, and take AD's again to keep from ending up in hospital again because of stress at fiscal year end inventory time. I followed my plan, and I'm through with inventory and feeling great. I'm loving Effexor and all you psycho-babblers right now!!!
> First I want to thank Brian, Cher, Zinya and Kimberly for your prayers and thoughts. I left Saturday 21st of June and returned Tues. July 1st. I only drove 3 hours and stayed with a friend overnight. Next day I proceeded to drive the other 2 1/2 hours to my sons house. I made it! I wasn't scared going up but coming back, I was very nervous and sleepy. I took my effexor at around 10:00 am but spent some time in the sun. I think this made me sleepy. I was going to drive the 5 hours straight. Not a good idea but I made it home. I had my pekingnese with me so I kept telling him not to sleep, talk to me, wake me up. But he ignored me, slept like a doggy.
>
> Anyway, my grandaugher weighed 7 lbs, 6 oz. She is healthy and beautiful. I spent time in the hospital with my daughter-n-law as she had to have some blood transfusions. All in all, everything went well. I drove around to see some freinds, I even took the diamond lane once. A year ago, no one could pay me enough to get on a diamond lane. I don't really know what happened ....yes I do. I prayed to God to heal me of this fear driving and of leaving my "safe place". I also was tired of being in this prison, unable to travel anywhere, asking people to take me places for fear of having an anxioty attack. I did it and will hopefully drive more now. Well, I'm still a little scared but will take my baby steps. However this drive was a huge giant step in my life. I truly think that getting on this psycobable also helped me immensly. Just knowing I was not alone in feeling the way I do.
>
> Thank you all for your comments, support, inquiries and for being there for me. I will try to do the same for you. Luv you all and take care.
>
> Mercedes
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