![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 61. Go back in thread:
Posted by Squiggles on May 25, 2003, at 12:02:48
In reply to Mg for Anxiety? - Klonopin musings, posted by KellyD on May 25, 2003, at 11:14:56
Hi KellyD,
Klonopin is a powerful, mid-level half-life
(approx. 15 hrs) benzodiazepine. It is
commonly used for myoclonic (muscle), epileptic,
and anxiety disorders. Contrary to the
benzophobes, who may generalize about this
class of drugs, i've found that this benzo
is not habituating or addictive as Xanax or
Valium is for example. I have taken 0.50
Klnopin for 7 yrs. without having to raise it
to 1.0 - i don't know why it is different from
the others.As for magnesium, i would doubt very much that
it is as strong a drug, but i don't personally
know. One interesting thing -- when i had
Klonopin withdrawal and was very sick, my dr.
tested me for magnesium in the blood - mysterious.Squiggles
Posted by Kari on May 25, 2003, at 13:18:00
In reply to Mg for Anxiety? - Klonopin musings, posted by KellyD on May 25, 2003, at 11:14:56
Hi Kelly,
I have found magnesium to be helpful. It would make sense, too, because chronic stress depletes magnesium and most people don't get enough of this mineral anyway. So maybe people suffering from problems like anxiety, regardless of the cause, develop secondary or more severe symptoms due to this deficiency.
Take care,
Kari.
Posted by Paulie on May 25, 2003, at 15:25:59
In reply to Mg for Anxiety? - Klonopin musings, posted by KellyD on May 25, 2003, at 11:14:56
Hello,
Mg does have a mild sedative effect. i often take about 500mg for insomnia. It does help-at least a little.
Lower doses 150-200mg during the day makes me feel less tense. Mg can have a laxitive effect depending on dose taken (reason why Milk of Magnesia is a laxitive). The organic forms of mg (aspartate,malate,citrate,fumarate) are less likely to cause diarrhea than mg oxide or chloride.Paul
Posted by BekkaH on May 25, 2003, at 17:55:02
In reply to Mg for Anxiety? - Klonopin musings, posted by KellyD on May 25, 2003, at 11:14:56
Hi Kelly,
I take Calcium and Magnesium Citrate made by Solgar. I take it at night before bed, but it can be taken throughout the day. If I take it in the morning, I feel kind of sluggish. I do think it helps. The Citrate form is supposed to be absorbed more efficiently than some of the other forms of the minerals.
Posted by JackT on May 26, 2003, at 13:07:01
In reply to Re: Mg for Anxiety? - Kelly D, posted by BekkaH on May 25, 2003, at 17:55:02
Larry,
Can you reply with your links to previous postings about magnesium? Or better yet, in a couple of sentences can you give a recommendation to the type of magnesium to get a high dosage that is well absorbed.
BTW, I have only been able to find "Slow Mag" which is Mag Cloride. I would like to try higher doses, but don't feel like taking 10 of these a day. Of course there is Mag oxide available everywhere, but I believe you said that it doesn't absorb very well. If you could add where you buy your mag supplements, it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Jack
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 26, 2003, at 16:05:24
In reply to Re: Mg for Anxiety? L. Hoover , posted by JackT on May 26, 2003, at 13:07:01
> Larry,
>
> Can you reply with your links to previous postings about magnesium?I don't know how old those links would be, and P-B doesn't search recent postings. :-/
I can summarize the activity of magnesium in this context. If you consider anxiety to be both a high-arousal state, and one with a low threshold for triggering, magnesium: a) reduces ACTH release (ACTH is the trigger for adrenal hormone release); b) reduces aldosterone synthesis; c) inhibits the sensitivity of the excitatory NMDA-receptors; d) enhances the sensitivity of the inhibitory GABA-receptors. Magnesium supplementation is associated with decreases in both adrenaline and noradrenaline in urine, demonstrating a reduction in "fight or flight" responsiveness. It also changes sleep architecture, increasing components of sleep associated with feeling restored (kind of a corollary to coping, IMHO).
>Or better yet, in a couple of sentences can you give a recommendation to the type of magnesium to get a high dosage that is well absorbed.
>
> BTW, I have only been able to find "Slow Mag" which is Mag Cloride. I would like to try higher doses, but don't feel like taking 10 of these a day. Of course there is Mag oxide available everywhere, but I believe you said that it doesn't absorb very well. If you could add where you buy your mag supplements, it would be greatly appreciated.I don't know the formulation of Slo-Mag, but mag chloride is quite readily absorbed. That's what I use, or the citrate, or the malate. You can get amino-acid chelates, like aspartate, or salts like gluconate or orotate, but where I shop locally, chloride or citrate are the cheapest.
I don't know why you can't find other magnesium salts in your locale. Are you going to a health-food type store, or a pharmacy? I think Walmart carries a house-brand citrate or chloride. Cheap.
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Jackyer welcome,
Lar
Posted by JackT on May 27, 2003, at 7:21:01
In reply to Re: Mg for Anxiety? L. Hoover » JackT, posted by Larry Hoover on May 26, 2003, at 16:05:24
Larry,
Thanks for your informative post.
I've been shopping at pharmacies, grocery stores, and Target, but haven't tried Walmart. At the particular stores I visited, I could find MgO abundantly and found MgCl only at Target.
I've give Wal-mart a try.
One more thing, to combat anxiety (GAD), how much mag should someone try for starters? Can you express the dosage in actual magnesium content?
Jack T.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 27, 2003, at 7:56:10
In reply to Re: Mg for Anxiety? L. Hoover, posted by JackT on May 27, 2003, at 7:21:01
> Larry,
>
> Thanks for your informative post.
>
> I've been shopping at pharmacies, grocery stores, and Target, but haven't tried Walmart. At the particular stores I visited, I could find MgO abundantly and found MgCl only at Target.
>
> I've give Wal-mart a try.
>
> One more thing, to combat anxiety (GAD), how much mag should someone try for starters? Can you express the dosage in actual magnesium content?
>
> Jack T.I've read that a sensible target is 350 mg elemental magnesium/day. The problem about such recommendations is that there are so many individual variables your unique body operates with, there are potentially huge differences in mag requirements.
Try to spread out the dose over the day, and take it with meals. That will reduce the likelihood of diarrhea. If diarrhea occurs, cut the dose by 1/4 for two weeks (cutting back again by 1/4, if necessary) then try the higher dose(s) again. Your body will adapt to increased magnesium supplies over time.
Some simple changes you should note are: a) a reduction in the tendency to startle; b) more fine motor control (smoother operation of your muscles); c) decrease in irritability; d) reduced tendency to hyperventilate.
Vitamin D is cheap, and it would be a good idea to supplement that, as well. Magnesium deficiency is often associated with vitamin D deficiency.
Lar
Posted by Squiggles on May 27, 2003, at 8:01:28
In reply to Re: Mg for Anxiety? L. Hoover, posted by Larry Hoover on May 27, 2003, at 7:56:10
Would a one-a-day vitamin do, or is this
a therapeutic alternative for benzos?Squiggles
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 27, 2003, at 8:35:57
In reply to Re: Mg for Anxiety? L. Hoover, posted by JackT on May 27, 2003, at 7:21:01
> Larry,
>
> Thanks for your informative post.I knew I'd seen some nice descriptions of magnesium deficiency symptoms somewhere, and here they are. What is weird about magnesium deficiency is that the variety of symptoms in an individual can be very different from those in another. When mag deficiency is suspected, the real test is called magnesium loading, which is just another way of saying "give them magnesium and see if the symptoms disappear". Recommendations are 5 mg Mg/kg body weight (which is where I got the 350 mg recommendation for the "standard" body weight of 70 kg = 154 lbs.).
From:
http://www.mgwater.com/dur33.shtml"The symptoms of nervous primary chronic MD(magnesium deficiency) in the adult include non specific central peripheral and autonomic manifestations of neuromuscular hyperexcitability 1-8, 21-38.
Central or rather psychiatric symptoms consist of anxiety, hyperemotionality, fatigue, headaches (and sometimes migraine), insomnia, light-headedness, dizziness, nervous fits (panic attack particularly), lipothymiae, sensation of a 'lump in the throat', of 'nuchalgia' and 'blocked breathing'. Personality disorders are of neurotic type.
Neuromuscular disturbances symptoms are acroparaesthesiae, cramps, muscle fasciculations and myalgiae occurring more frequently than tetanoid or tetanic attack.
Autonomic functional complaints include chest pain, sine materia dyspnoea, blocked respiration, asthma-like dyspnoea, hepatobiliary dyskinesia, gastrointestinal spasms, precordialgia, palpitations, extrasystoles, dysrhythmias, Raynaud's syndrome, trends to orthostatic hypotension or conversely to borderline hypertension. In fact, the dysautonomic disturbances involve both the sympathetic and the parasympathetic systems: neurovegetative disorders may be amphotonic, alpha or beta sympathicotonic, vagotonic, with reactive hypoglycemia, pseudo allergic through hyper- receptivity to histamine and/or acetylcholine, sometimes with genuine allergy (Type I mainly). "
Most of the research into mag supplementation has been done in Europe. Go figure. This article measured anxiety parameters as a function of mag supplementation in the treatment of mitral valve prolapse.
Am J Cardiol 1997 Mar 15;79(6):768-72
Comment in:
Am J Cardiol. 1997 Oct 1;80(7):976.
Clinical symptoms of mitral valve prolapse are related to hypomagnesemia and attenuated by magnesium supplementation.Lichodziejewska B, Klos J, Rezler J, Grudzka K, Dluzniewska M, Budaj A, Ceremuzynski L.
Department of Cardiology, Postgraduate Medical School, Grochowski Hospital, Warsaw, Poland.
Mitral valve prolapse syndrome (MVP) is a frequent disorder characterized by a number of complaints which lessen the quality of life. The pathogenesis of MVP symptoms has not been fully elucidated. Hyperadrenergic activity and magnesium deficiency have been suggested. This study was designed to verify the concept that heavily symptomatic MVP is accompanied by hypomagnesemia and to elucidate whether magnesium supplementation alleviates the symptoms and influences adrenergic activity. We assessed serum magnesium in 141 subjects with heavily symptomatic primary MVP and in 40 healthy controls. Decreased serum magnesium was found in 60% of patients and in 5% of controls (p <0.0001). Patients with low serum magnesium were subjected to magnesium or placebo supplementation in a double-blind, crossover fashion. Typical symptoms of MVP (n = 13), intensity of anxiety, and daily excretion of catecholamines were determined. After 5 weeks, the mean number of symptoms per patient decreased from 10.4 +/- 2.1 to 5.6 +/- 2.5 (p <0.0001), and a significant reduction in weakness, chest pain, dyspnea, palpitations, and anxiety was observed. Increased noradrenaline excretion before and after magnesium was seen in 63% and 17% of patients, respectively (p <0.01). Mean daily excretion of noradrenaline and adrenaline was significantly diminished after magnesium. It is concluded that many patients with heavily symptomatic MVP have low serum magnesium, and supplementation of this ion leads to improvement in most symptoms along with a decrease in catecholamine excretion.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 27, 2003, at 9:14:00
In reply to Re: Mg for Anxiety? L. Hoover » Larry Hoover, posted by Squiggles on May 27, 2003, at 8:01:28
> Would a one-a-day vitamin do, or is this
> a therapeutic alternative for benzos?
>
> SquigglesNeither, I'm afraid. Magnesium has been proven to potentiate benzos, but I'm not suggesting that you can just "do without". By the time you're into "benzo therapy land", your body may no longer be able to go back to the way it was before. Aging changes us.
You can only get magnesium in the doses I'm suggesting by supplements of magnesium salts. I don't think you can achieve it by diet alone, unless your native water supply is quite high in magnesium (which isn't common).
Lar
Posted by Squiggles on May 27, 2003, at 9:14:16
In reply to Re: Mg for Anxiety? symptoms » JackT, posted by Larry Hoover on May 27, 2003, at 8:35:57
Hi Larry,
You sound like you are a doctor, so please
excuse me if i seem presumptuous, but i did
check a "mainstream" site on magnesium because
i was very curious why my dr. gave me a magnesium
test. I thought that perhaps, consistent with
the symptoms of hypomagnesium in your research
he may have been testing for the withdrawal
syndrome. I think it is more likely though,
that what he was doing was testing for kidney
or diabetes. You see, i am taking lithium and
i was also given a diabetes test -- so that may
have been the reason he chose the magnesium
test, rather than the CNS symptoms, which were
due to clonazepam withdrawal.You can just look at this as footnote. I am
sticking to my 1-a-day vitamin because he did not
find hypomagnesia.Tx.
Squiggles
Posted by mattdds on May 27, 2003, at 10:44:00
In reply to Re: Mg for Anxiety? » Squiggles, posted by Larry Hoover on May 27, 2003, at 9:14:00
Larry,
You said it was proven that benzos can be potentiated by Mg. Where did you hear / read this? Interestingly, I started taking a supplement that has:
Magnesium Gluconate / Oxide: (400 mg)
Calcium Carbonate / Gluconate (1,000 mg)
Zinc Gluconate / Oxide (25mg)I could swear that my Klonopin (0.5 mg, b.i.d.) is working better recently. But I don't know what to attribute this to. Perhaps this is a placebo effect, but OTOH I never expect much from supplements (or drugs, for that matter), and I had not heard before that Mg potentiates benzos.
Another interesting subtlety I've noticed: I took a nap the other day and awoke without having my heart pounding (normally I awake from a nap extremely dysphoric and anxious, a pounding chest). I always wondered if this was an MVP thing (the pounding-chest-after-nap phenomenon). Hmmm. Guess it wouldn't hurt to keep taking it, as it's cheap and harmless.
Also, regarding MVP / Mg. I have read that one hypothesis is that MVP is part of a larger connective tissue abnormality, somewhat related to Marfan's syndrome. I have to wonder if Mg is a cofactor for some enzyme involved in the synthesis of some protein involved in the (hypothetical) connective tissue abnormality in MVP. These are likely just moronic amateur musings.
I have one more question. You said in an earlier post that after taking benzos, it is hard to get by on supplements alone. Did you mean that benzos are much more obviously effective, and one would be dissatisfied with only supplements after that? Kind of like the Buspar-after-benzos effect? Or did you mean that you believe benzos cause permanent changes that are irreversible? Or something else?
Thanks,
Matt
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 27, 2003, at 10:44:30
In reply to Re: Mg for Anxiety? symptoms » Larry Hoover, posted by Squiggles on May 27, 2003, at 9:14:16
> Hi Larry,
>
> You sound like you are a doctor,I am not a doctor. I am a scientist geek.
> so please
> excuse me if i seem presumptuous, but i did
> check a "mainstream" site on magnesium because
> i was very curious why my dr. gave me a magnesium
> test. I thought that perhaps, consistent with
> the symptoms of hypomagnesium in your research
> he may have been testing for the withdrawal
> syndrome. I think it is more likely though,
> that what he was doing was testing for kidney
> or diabetes. You see, i am taking lithium and
> i was also given a diabetes test -- so that may
> have been the reason he chose the magnesium
> test, rather than the CNS symptoms, which were
> due to clonazepam withdrawal.I don't know what magnesium test you were given, but there are five different tests used in diagnosing magnesium deficiency. Moreover, the real "test" is called magnesium loading, which is nothing more than "give 'em magnesium, and see if they feel better".
> You can just look at this as footnote. I am
> sticking to my 1-a-day vitamin because he did not
> find hypomagnesia.
>
> Tx.
>
> SquigglesThat doesn't mean you don't have magnesium deficiency. Your body is compartmentalized, and blood magnesium can be in the normal range (which itself is questioned by some, as the normal range is probably too broad), while specific organs are deficient. You've mentioned "palpitations" so many times. That's an obvious clue, ya know?
Lar
Posted by Squiggles on May 27, 2003, at 10:55:40
In reply to Re: Mg for Anxiety? symptoms, posted by Larry Hoover on May 27, 2003, at 10:44:30
Larry,
I did not get the loading test - just the bloods;
the reason i mention kidney is because typically
a magnesium test is given when a person had
kidney or diabetes disorders. With lithium in
my history for over 20 yrs. my dr. may have
wanted to do an indirect check. The diabetes
test was a fasting or retention test for 12 hrs.As for having palpitations - you may remember
me from waaaaaaaaaayyy back in another net
planet. I stopped having palpitations when i
withdrew from Xanax. What i have stressed often
is that a high Synthroid dose (which i was
mistakenly put on) acts like speed and gives you
palpitations. Once the dose was lowered i was
ok. Also, the tolerance to Xanax gave me
panic attacks - and the palpitations go along with
that.To take mg as a supplement to benzo? Aaarrghh,
maybe it would workd but you know mg has
side effects and it would be yet another "Fear and
Loathing" adventure *for me*.But your research is definitely interesting, as
magnesium may be a healhtier way to supplement
benzos with their notorious side effects.Squiggles
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 27, 2003, at 12:34:57
In reply to Mg potentiates benzos? Cool! » Larry Hoover, posted by mattdds on May 27, 2003, at 10:44:00
> Larry,
>
> You said it was proven that benzos can be potentiated by Mg. Where did you hear / read this?I've seen that a number of places, but this is all I can find on short notice:
Magnes Res 1991 Sep-Dec;4(3-4):197-200
Experimental evidence of a potentiation by alpha,beta magnesium L-aspartate of the anxiolytic effect of diazepam. Four-plate test in mice and qEEG study in primates.
Borzeix MG, Akimjak JP, Dupont JM, Cahn R, Cahn J.
Institut de Recherche SIR international, Montrouge, France.
The anxiolytic dose 50 (AD50) of diazepam was determined in mice in the four-plate test and the EEG pattern elicited by diazepam was quantified by Fast Fourier Transformation in monkeys. The AD50 of diazepam was reduced by 2.7-fold after repeated treatment with alpha,beta magnesium L-aspartate. The increased EEG fast activity elicited by diazepam at the expense of slow activities was reinforced and more long lasting after alpha,beta magnesium L-aspartate treatment.
> Interestingly, I started taking a supplement that has:
>
> Magnesium Gluconate / Oxide: (400 mg)
> Calcium Carbonate / Gluconate (1,000 mg)
> Zinc Gluconate / Oxide (25mg)
>
> I could swear that my Klonopin (0.5 mg, b.i.d.) is working better recently. But I don't know what to attribute this to. Perhaps this is a placebo effect, but OTOH I never expect much from supplements (or drugs, for that matter), and I had not heard before that Mg potentiates benzos.I trust empiricism (real observations). Zinc helps too.
> Another interesting subtlety I've noticed: I took a nap the other day and awoke without having my heart pounding (normally I awake from a nap extremely dysphoric and anxious, a pounding chest). I always wondered if this was an MVP thing (the pounding-chest-after-nap phenomenon). Hmmm. Guess it wouldn't hurt to keep taking it, as it's cheap and harmless.
I definitely agree with the latter statement. And, if there is a benefit, you'll get it, even though it may be too subtle to "prove".
> Also, regarding MVP / Mg. I have read that one hypothesis is that MVP is part of a larger connective tissue abnormality, somewhat related to Marfan's syndrome. I have to wonder if Mg is a cofactor for some enzyme involved in the synthesis of some protein involved in the (hypothetical) connective tissue abnormality in MVP. These are likely just moronic amateur musings.Not moronic. Quite the contrary.
Magnesium 1986;5(3-4):165-74
Magnesium deficiency in the pathogenesis of mitral valve prolapse.
Galland LD, Baker SM, McLellan RK.
Idiopathic mitral valve prolapse (MVP) is the commonest valvular disorder in industrialized nations. It is predominantly a familial condition, showing Mendelian dominance with delayed and variable penetrance. Although hyperkinesis and hypertrophy of the left ventricle have been described in MVP, its histopathology, somatic morphology and genetics support the leading theory that MVP results from a hereditary disorder of connective tissue. Latent tetany (LT) due to chronic Mg deficit (Mg-D) occurs in over 85% of MVP cases; MVP complicates 26% of LT. Mg-D can explain many clinical features of the MVP syndrome which are not easily explained by its genetics. Mg-D hinders the mechanism by which fibroblasts degrade defective collagen, increases circulating catecholamines, predisposes to cardiac arrhythmias, thromboembolic phenomena and dysregulation of the immune and autonomic nervous systems. Mg therapy provides relief of MVP symptoms.
> I have one more question. You said in an earlier post that after taking benzos, it is hard to get by on supplements alone. Did you mean that benzos are much more obviously effective, and one would be dissatisfied with only supplements after that? Kind of like the Buspar-after-benzos effect? Or did you mean that you believe benzos cause permanent changes that are irreversible? Or something else?
>
> Thanks,
>
> MattSomething else.
Young people, as a consequence of aging, gradually develop symptoms of that aging process. Eventually, they may find the level of a particular symptom sufficiently bothersome to seek care. For example, chronic anxiety may arise, which might lead to anxiolytic treatment, such as benzos.
Magnesium depletion is but one factor leading to increases in anxiety symptoms. Early intervention (i.e. magnesium supplementation) may have a prophylactic effect. However, once anxiety becomes strongly symptomatic, I doubt that magnesium supplements will wholly reverse the trend. A loss of resiliency, over time.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 27, 2003, at 13:54:05
In reply to Mg potentiates benzos? Cool! » Larry Hoover, posted by mattdds on May 27, 2003, at 10:44:00
> Another interesting subtlety I've noticed: I took a nap the other day and awoke without having my heart pounding (normally I awake from a nap extremely dysphoric and anxious, a pounding chest). I always wondered if this was an MVP thing (the pounding-chest-after-nap phenomenon). Hmmm. Guess it wouldn't hurt to keep taking it, as it's cheap and harmless.
Do it for your heart. Psychological effects are bonus. <grin>
Mol Cell Biochem 2002 Sep;238(1-2):163-79
Protective role of magnesium in cardiovascular diseases: a review.
Chakraborti S, Chakraborti T, Mandal M, Mandal A, Das S, Ghosh S.
Department of Biochemistry and Biophysics, University of Kalyani, Kalyani, West Bengal, India. s_chakraborti@hotmail.com
A considerable number of experimental, epidemiological and clinical studies are now available which point to an important role of Mg2+ in the etiology of cardiovascular pathology. In human subjects, hypomagnesemia is often associated with an imbalance of electrolytes such as Na+, K+ and Ca2+. Abnormal dietary deficiency of Mg2+ as well as abnormalities in Mg2+ metabolism play important roles in different types of heart diseases such as ischemic heart disease, congestive heart failure, sudden cardiac death, atheroscelerosis, a number of cardiac arrhythmias and ventricular complications in diabetes mellitus. Mg2+ deficiency results in progressive vasoconstriction of the coronary vessels leading to a marked reduction in oxygen and nutrient delivery to the cardiac myocytes. Numerous experimental and clinical data have suggested that Mg2+ deficiency can induce elevation of intracellular Ca2+ concentrations, formation of oxygen radicals, proinflammatory agents and growth factors and changes in membrane perrmeability and transport processes in cardiac cells. The opposing effects of Mg2+ and Ca2+ on myocardial contractility may be due to the competition between Mg2+ and Ca2+ for the same binding sites on key myocardial contractile proteins such as troponin C, myosin and actin. Stimulants, for example, catecholamines can evoke marked Mg2+ efflux which appears to be associated with a concomitant increase in the force of contraction of the heart. It has been suggested that Mg2+ efflux may be linked to the Ca2+ signalling pathway. Depletion of Mg2+ by alcohol in cardiac cells causes an increase in intracellular Ca2+, leading to coronary artery vasospasm, arrhythmias, ischemic damage and cardiac failure. Hypomagnesemia is commonly associated with hypokalemia and occurs in patients with hypertension or myocardial infarction as well as in chronic alcoholism. The inability of the senescent myocardium to respond to ischemic stress could be due to several reasons. Mg2+ supplemented K+ cardioplegia modulates Ca2+ accumulation and is directly involved in the mechanisms leading to enhanced post ischemic functional recovery in the aged myocardium following ischemia. While many of these mechanisms remain controversial and in some cases speculative, the beneficial effects related to consequences of Mg2+ supplementation are apparent. Further research are needed for the incorporation of these findings toward the development of novel myocardial protective role of Mg2+ to reduce morbidity and mortality of patients suffering from a variety of cardiac diseases.
Lar
Posted by mattdds on May 27, 2003, at 20:13:19
In reply to Re: Mg potentiates benzos? Cool!, posted by Larry Hoover on May 27, 2003, at 12:34:57
Larry,
This Mg is really cool stuff. I did a brief google on "magnesium and mitral valve prolapse" and was quite amazed. I had no idea there was so much evidence out there supporting this as an etiologic factor (as well as a treatment for) of MVP symptoms.
Can you imagine if Mg were patentable? The evidence out there for this seems to be quite good, by the standards we usually apply (the study from the Am J Cardiology was pretty solid!). But since there is no money in studying this, it doesn't get the attention it may deserve.
Thanks Larry!
Matt
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 7:57:24
In reply to Re: Mg potentiates benzos? Cool!, posted by mattdds on May 27, 2003, at 20:13:19
> Larry,
>
> This Mg is really cool stuff. I did a brief google on "magnesium and mitral valve prolapse" and was quite amazed. I had no idea there was so much evidence out there supporting this as an etiologic factor (as well as a treatment for) of MVP symptoms.And exactly how many doctors have suggested it to you? In any subject with coexistent anxiety and MVP, it ought to be the first line of treatment.
For complex reasons, blood magnesium tests are absolutely worthless. The only true "test" is magnesium loading. In other words, magnesium supplementation.
> Can you imagine if Mg were patentable?
I'm friggin' glad it's not.
Good or bad, the system we've got is just the one we've got. You can't patent St. John's wort (or other herbs), either. <sigh of relief>
>The evidence out there for this seems to be quite good, by the standards we usually apply (the study from the Am J Cardiology was pretty solid!). But since there is no money in studying this, it doesn't get the attention it may deserve.
>
> Thanks Larry!
>
> MattI'm glad you're paying attention, ya know? I don't know it it's that there's no money in studying this, or simply that attention is distracted by all the other things going on in medicine.
<rant mode on>
There have been a number of major studies of the nutritional content of the American diet (look up NHANES, for example). Every study has shown that a substantial portion of the population is unable to obtain even the lowest acceptable level of certain nutrients from the diet. Yet, even when symptoms of nutrient deficiency start to appear, pharmacological treatments are initiated, rather than nutritional ones.There is a philosphical truism (really, an untruism) that states "all your nutritional needs can be met by eating a balanced diet". That is simply false, even for a healthy person. No allowance is made for the enhanced nutritional requirements in states of biochemical imbalance associated with disease. Nor is the concept of *optimal* intake even considered; RDAs, RDIs, and the like, are set at the 95% cut-off for the prevention of overt deficiency disease. Nevertheless, rickets (as one example) is on the increase in America. What's wrong with this picture?
I can assure you, I do not have a Prozac deficiency. Nor one in Klonopin. I'm looking elsewhere for my supplements.
<rant mode off>Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 9:47:42
In reply to Mg potentiates benzos? Cool! » Larry Hoover, posted by mattdds on May 27, 2003, at 10:44:00
> Larry,
>
> You said it was proven that benzos can be potentiated by Mg. Where did you hear / read this? Interestingly, I started taking a supplement that has:
>
> Magnesium Gluconate / Oxide: (400 mg)
> Calcium Carbonate / Gluconate (1,000 mg)
> Zinc Gluconate / Oxide (25mg)
>
> I could swear that my Klonopin (0.5 mg, b.i.d.) is working better recently. But I don't know what to attribute this to. Perhaps this is a placebo effect, but OTOH I never expect much from supplements (or drugs, for that matter), and I had not heard before that Mg potentiates benzos.I have been trying to find a more contemporaneous reference (and written in good English), but Russian work from the late 70's/early 80's shows that niacinamide is not only an endogenous ligand of the "benzodiazepine" receptor, but it also potentiates the anxiolytic effects of e.g. diazepam.
Lar
Posted by johnj on May 28, 2003, at 11:02:20
In reply to Re: Mg potentiates benzos? Cool! » mattdds, posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 9:47:42
Larry,
I have a few questions I would like to ask and hopefully tap you knowledge bank.
I may be wrong, and please correct me, but I detect a slightly negative attitude towards medication from you. I would like nothing else to go supplement solo but do not think it is possible right now. What I do feel is that if I could have had advance knowledge of my panic attack and subsequent depression I believe, granted this would have been 6 months prior knowledge, I would have stood a great chance of preventing it with stress reduction, excercise, and supplements.
I do feel that my way of thinking aided the panic attack and depression. Given this includes my genetics, environment at the time, and my diet problems. The most frustrating part of my illness has been with supplements that have helped at first and then pooped out or whatever. This includes magnesium and fish oil.
What have you decided to do since magnesium stared making you feel groggy? For me, if I replendished Mg I should have seen a continued benefit not insomnia, at least when I stopped the Mg. It is hard to know what the cause or how to use the supplement. For example, does one use Mg for one week a month?(I don't expect you to answer this). Same with fish oil it aided my sleep, but then had some sleep problems on it. I have found I am not the only one this has happened to either. Very furstrating.
Remeron has helped, but I still have not so good days which are directly related to not so good nights. But, to be honest I feel weak that 1. I can't get remission even with drugs, and 2. supplements are not even giving me much relief. Sometimes I think I need to be off all meds and start all over. But, do meds do us damage that is not reversible?(like possible receptor damage with ssri's). I think you alluded to this in regards to benzo's.
Do you have an opinion on why poop out happens and possible remedies? I don't mean to put you on the spot, but you appear to know more than my doctors who want to give me med after med. Do you believe the possible dopamine depletion thinking that is out there?
Any opinions or data you have seen in relation to what I have written would be appreciated. Thanks Larry.
johnj
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 11:48:47
In reply to Re: Mg potentiates benzos? Cool! » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on May 28, 2003, at 11:02:20
> Larry,
>
> I have a few questions I would like to ask and hopefully tap you knowledge bank.
>
> I may be wrong, and please correct me, but I detect a slightly negative attitude towards medication from you.I don't tolerate meds well. I am Mr. side-effect. For me, they are often like trying to swat a gnat with a sledge-hammer. Meds saved my life. They may well do so again. But past that, I find I can't live with them.
I have a systemic negativity towards medicine as practised in Western society. "Treat 'em and street 'em" means drugs. Go to a doctor. Get a drug. I don't think that's the best way to do things.
When I'm not critically ill, I'm looking for better ways than drugs.
>I would like nothing else to go supplement solo but do not think it is possible right now. What I do feel is that if I could have had advance knowledge of my panic attack and subsequent depression I believe, granted this would have been 6 months prior knowledge, I would have stood a great chance of preventing it with stress reduction, excercise, and supplements.
Extending that thought....do you think it is presently possible to prevent future episodes by using supplements, stress reduction, and exercise as a prophylactic strategy?
What is necessary for that to work is a change in assumptions. Knowing you have options is of benefit, even if those options are not implemented.
> I do feel that my way of thinking aided the panic attack and depression. Given this includes my genetics, environment at the time, and my diet problems. The most frustrating part of my illness has been with supplements that have helped at first and then pooped out or whatever. This includes magnesium and fish oil.
Poop out in that context could be you just got used to it. It's taken me years to fine-tune my personal support system. I'm still tweaking it, every day. I forget to take things. I get bored or busy. But I find myself returning to some supplements over and over again.
Cognitive schemas, the patterns I project onto my world, are also something I've worked very hard at adapting to my reality. Cognitive dissonance, a lack of total congruence between a schema and the real world, can be a major source of distress. And, you may not even be able to figure out what's wrong, even though you know something is. I have no idea just how my supplements interact with my cognition, but I'm feeling better after adjusting both.
> What have you decided to do since magnesium stared making you feel groggy?I just don't take it every day.
>For me, if I replendished Mg I should have seen a continued benefit not insomnia, at least when I stopped the Mg.
The experimental method can be a problem in and of itself. You want to try and manipulate one variable at a time, so you can start to get a sense of cause and effect (I know correlation is not causation, but I think our brains are hard-wired to believe that it is). But it may be that, for example, magnesium works a certain way *if, and only if* it's combined with one or more other substances. You'll never know that if you just manipulate magnesium.
>It is hard to know what the cause or how to use the supplement. For example, does one use Mg for one week a month?(I don't expect you to answer this).
Maybe that works for *you*. Your experience is more important than the rationale you use to guide your experience.
>Same with fish oil it aided my sleep, but then had some sleep problems on it. I have found I am not the only one this has happened to either.
I'm wondering about antioxidant status, in conjunction with the fish oil. Poly-unsaturated fatty acids are the raw materials for a vast array of signalling compounds, like prostaglandins, leukotrienes and other cytokines, and so on. Many of those are formed by oxidation. And, maybe if you've been deficient for a period of time, your body has ramped up a variety of enzyme concentrations to make do while deficient. If you suddenly increase the raw materials for those enzymes, product concentration skyrockets before feed-back inhibition can shut the enzymes down.
One trial of a nutrient may not be conclusive.
> Very furstrating.
Yup. Frustrating, even. <grin>
> Remeron has helped, but I still have not so good days which are directly related to not so good nights. But, to be honest I feel weak that 1. I can't get remission even with drugs, and 2. supplements are not even giving me much relief.There's one of those schemas! Look at how your thinking has affected how you feel.
>Sometimes I think I need to be off all meds and start all over. But, do meds do us damage that is not reversible?(like possible receptor damage with ssri's). I think you alluded to this in regards to benzo's.
I wasn't meaning that benzos damage you. They don't fix what's really wrong, and the progression of the disease may continue, even with medication.
If you find substances that potentiate your meds, then maybe you can decrease your med dose. As you gain a new equilibrium, perhaps you find that certain side effects have also diminished, increasing a sense of wellness. That may allow you to employ other potentiating strategies more effectively (e.g. exercise). Depending on drugs as the "fix" is narrow-minded.
> Do you have an opinion on why poop out happens and possible remedies? I don't mean to put you on the spot, but you appear to know more than my doctors who want to give me med after med. Do you believe the possible dopamine depletion thinking that is out there?
It's entirely possible that poop-out occurs because of unique stresses placed on the biochemistry, which may create wholly new problems over time. That's one *theory*. It's a schema.
Another theory is that your body has innate set-points that it will tend towards, and given enough time, up-regulation and down-regulation and all that will get you back to the set-point (which may be, unfortunately, depressed). That's another schema.
Now, note how these schemas can affect decisions. Which is open-ended (comparatively), and more conducive to hope?
> Any opinions or data you have seen in relation to what I have written would be appreciated. Thanks Larry.
>
> johnjI'm glad to tell you about my schemas. I'm unique. My body's unique. My brain's unique. And so, my schemas must be unique. My thoughts aren't proof of anything. Your experience is.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 15:04:24
In reply to Re: Mg for Anxiety? L. Hoover, posted by JackT on May 27, 2003, at 7:21:01
> Larry,
>
> Thanks for your informative post.
>
> I've been shopping at pharmacies, grocery stores, and Target, but haven't tried Walmart. At the particular stores I visited, I could find MgO abundantly and found MgCl only at Target.
>
> I've give Wal-mart a try.Jack, if you are still not finding what you want, the mail-order firm I use is called Hilife Vitamins and Herbs, at:
http://www.hilife-vitamins.com/index.html
Solgar at 40% off, Nature's Way at 50% off.
Use the Search function, or just browse by manufacturer.Lar
Posted by johnj on May 28, 2003, at 17:36:55
In reply to Re: questions » johnj, posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 11:48:47
Lar,
As always you kindly answer my questions.
<I don't tolerate meds well. I am Mr. side-effect. For me, they are often like trying to swat a gnat with a sledge-hammer. Meds saved my life. They may well do so again. But past that, I find I can't live with them.>
I don't tolerate them either. I am finding as I have aged side effects abound. They saved my life too, but have limited my recovery at times. I should have went off when I was recovered and looked at other ways to keep myself healthy.
<I have a systemic negativity towards medicine as practised in Western society. "Treat 'em and street 'em" means drugs. Go to a doctor. Get a drug. I don't think that's the best way to do things.>
I totally agree, I just wish I had a pdoc that was interested in all approaches.
<Extending that thought....do you think it is presently possible to prevent future episodes by using supplements, stress reduction, and exercise as a prophylactic strategy?>
Yes, and I just wish I knew what was happening when I work out and why I end up with insomnia no matter what I do. I have long thought it may be the TCA, but only way to tell is to go off it. Maybe if I stay on the remeron I can realize this challenge.
<What is necessary for that to work is a change in assumptions. Knowing you have options is of benefit, even if those options are not implemented. >
I had looked at the non-traditional medicine approach and even some therapy, but I find myself not seeking them out for fear they won't help. Sounds dumb, and I know it is not rational, but hard to get moving.
<Cognitive schemas, the patterns I project onto my world, are also something I've worked very hard at adapting to my reality. Cognitive dissonance, a lack of total congruence between a schema and the real world, can be a major source of distress. And, you may not even be able to figure out what's wrong, even though you know something is. I have no idea just how my supplements interact with my cognition, but I'm feeling better after adjusting both.>
So very true Larry, after getting a dose of reality due to the remeron I was shocked, and saddened at how my thinking can get so distorted. This is a big battle for me.
Just thought I would reply to a few things in your post. I like the way you think. You have given me plenty of nuggets to chew on and I apprecite it. Thanks for sharing. :)
johnj
Posted by McPac on May 28, 2003, at 20:00:15
In reply to Re: Mg? How you making out finding it? » JackT, posted by Larry Hoover on May 28, 2003, at 15:04:24
Another poster said that fish oil interferes with magnesium's (and I think other minerals') absorption...what do you think? thanks!
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