![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 51 to 75 of 79. Go back in thread:
Posted by Ron Hill on May 23, 2003, at 1:10:23
In reply to Re: Quick question about niacin and niacinamide, posted by Larry Hoover on May 22, 2003, at 16:24:41
Interesting. Thank you very much Larry. This one has extra meat so I have to chew on it a bit longer than usual. I could probably chew faster if I had smoked a little less dope and attended organic a little more regularly back when I was a lad.
Thanks!
-- Ron
----------------------------------------
> > I'm intrigued by the alternate names for niacin (i.e.; nicotinic acid) and niacinamide (i.e.; nicotinamide). Are these substances related to nicotine and/or do they interact with nicotine receptors in some fashion?> Yes, they are structurally related. All are based on pyridine rings, which is like a benzene ring, but with one nitrogen atom.
> In the meta position from that nitrogen, a carboxylic acid group makes it nicotinic acid. The amide of ammonia with the nicotinic acid is called nicotinamide. Substituting a pyrrhole ring (five carbon, with a nitrogen) for the carboxylic acid group, and adding a methyl group to the pyrrholic nitrogen, gives you nicotine. Nicotine can be oxidized to nicotinic acid, but I have no idea of the extent of that conversion in vivo.
> The so-called nicotinic receptor is sensitive to exogenous (from outside) substances, including nicotine. It's rather intellectually arrogant to call it a nicotinic receptor, just as it's arrogant to think of a benzodiazepine receptor. Anyway, the receptor is actually one for acetylcholine, generally an excitatory class, but there are inhibitory versions, too. It's simple to say that the nicotinic receptor is cholinergic.> It is my understanding that niacinamide has some affinity for the nicotinic receptor. You may recall that I suggested, in my response to John, that there are both sedative and excitatory effects from using niacinamide. In most people, the sedative effect is dominant. Individual brains may vary.
> Yer welcome.
> Lar
Posted by Tony P on May 23, 2003, at 2:51:29
In reply to Re: Niacinamide reduces irritability (anecdotal) » Ron Hill, posted by johnj on May 20, 2003, at 9:22:24
I am interested to hear that other pathways are being discovered for niacin/amide's effects.
In the early 70's I read with considerable personal interest the original research by Hoffer et al. into niacin and niacinamide (which led to most of the "megavitamin" therapies, BTW). They were looking initially at a population of GAD (anxiety) patients. They hypothesized that a considerable proportion of anxiety could be attributed to low blood sugar, especially reactive hypoglycemia. Niacin helps to stabilize blood sugar for such patients.
I personally tried it (up to 3 g/day), with moderately positive results. My 6 hr. blood glucose profile showed a moderate degree of reactive hypoglycemia, so presumably it helped with that. However, it came nowhere near replacing the 40-60 mg./day Valium I had been taking. (YMMV).
I thought it was only niacin that had the blood-sugar stabilizing effect (not niacinamide), but I may be thinking of the cholesterol lowering effect, which I am sure was only niacin.
Maybe I'll give it another try! Cure first, pharmacology later ... details at 11.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2003, at 7:19:08
In reply to I wish I'd payed more attention in organic chem » Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on May 23, 2003, at 1:10:23
> Interesting. Thank you very much Larry. This one has extra meat so I have to chew on it a bit longer than usual. I could probably chew faster if I had smoked a little less dope and attended organic a little more regularly back when I was a lad.
>
> Thanks!
>
> -- RonSorry, Ron. I assumed you had paid attention in o-chem.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2003, at 9:35:24
In reply to I wish I'd payed more attention in organic chem » Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on May 23, 2003, at 1:10:23
> Interesting. Thank you very much Larry. This one has extra meat so I have to chew on it a bit longer than usual. I could probably chew faster if I had smoked a little less dope and attended organic a little more regularly back when I was a lad.
>
> Thanks!
>
> -- Ronhttp://www.purchon.com/biology/nicotinic.htm
http://www.ch.ic.ac.uk/rzepa/mim/drugs/html/nicotine_text.htm
Posted by Paulie on May 23, 2003, at 10:38:06
In reply to How many forms of niacin are there? -- johnj and » Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on May 22, 2003, at 0:33:27
This is a form of Niacin which I sometimes take.
Not sold in U.S. though.
XANTHINOL NICOTINATEXanthinol Nicotinate is a form of Niacin that passes easily through cell membranes; Xanthinol Nicotinate is the most potent form of Niacin available.
Xanthinol Nicotinate has been shown to increase brain glucose metabolism, improve brain ATP levels and improve brain blood flow (it acts as a vasodilator). As such, Xanthinol Nicotinate has been used to treat short-term memory disorders, mental flagging (i.e. lack of brain energy that compromises vigilance, concentration and attention) and insufficient blood flow to the arteries and the extremities. Furthermore Xanthinol Nicotinate has been clinically shown to improve the reaction speed of the elderly.
Xanthinol Nicotinate (like Niacin) can cause a flushing of the skin and a sense of warmth; it has therefore been suggested that Xanthinol Nicotinate can aid weight control through water loss. However we would suggest that Xanthinol Nicotinate be used for this purpose only prior to exercise or prior to climbing into a hot tub. This is in order to minimize the flushing affects that may be uncomfortable for some people.
Xanthinol Nicotinate can be used as an anti-aging memory support at 1 or 2 tablets (150mg each) three times a day, to a maximum of 12 tablets (1800mg total) prior to a workout or exercise.
Caution: build up to high doses gradually, Xanthinol Nicotinate at high doses can cause blood pressure changes and must therefore be avoided by persons suffering from peptic ulcers, liver problems, severe hypotension, myocardial infarction or other congestive heart problems.
At lower doses some minor side effects such as flushing, nausea, heartburn, itchy skin or vomiting (rare) may present themselves, these normally dissipate with a lower dose or continued use.
Paul
Posted by Ron Hill on May 23, 2003, at 11:05:37
In reply to Re: here are links to graphics of the structures » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2003, at 9:35:24
Larry,
Thanks for the links. It was reassuring to see that the mental pictures I had formulated for the structures of these compounds based on your written descriptions were the same as the drawings in the links.
I am amazed how well 250 mg/day of nicotinic acid treats my irritability. I’m currently splitting it into two 125 mg doses taken morning and late afternoon. I have always been under the impression that the B’s should be taken together as a complex and taken shortly after a meal. However, I’m finding benefit from taking nicotinic acid in isolation and on an empty stomach. Any thoughts on this issue?
I sure hope that the efficacy continues indefinitely, and I think it will because, like you said previously, it does not build up in the body. I'll write more details in a post to Johnj subsequently in this thread. Thanks again Lar.
How’re your CFS symptoms doing lately? Is Enada NADH still providing some amount of beneficial effect? If so, roughly how many milligrams do you take per week? Still taking the sublingual formulation?
-- Ron
Posted by johnj on May 23, 2003, at 11:49:17
In reply to Re: here are links to graphics of the structures » Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on May 23, 2003, at 11:05:37
Hi Guys
Great news that the niacin is working for you Ron. When I took 500 mg of niacinamide I did get a mild flush, but nothing like you would get on niacin. I currently am not taking the niaciamide. I had severe sleep troubles last week and it was due to a host of factors, some may be related to the doses of niacinamide I was taking. But, as Larry said, I will have to use process of elimination to see what contributed.
Good news is the remeron is working rather well. Today I have less pressure on the forehead and the staring/focusing problems have improved. This seems to be working so I will hang with it. The amazing thing is I was able to drop my benzo dose. I hope to drop the TCA and think it may help my side effects. It is hard to know how the two drugs interact. I would love to get down to just remeron and lithium. I refuse to give that up for it's neuroprotective function. IF, and that's a big IF, I will add some vitamins and supplements back. I need to get Larry a response to his question about sleep.
I have not tried Trazadone, but thought it might be better for sleep since it is not a benzo. I have some issues, no facts mind you, about my benzo use and increased depression. I thought trazadone may give me good sleep with some AD benefit?????
I was actually productive this week on remeron. My ability to understand what I have gone through the past year has also been heightened and I can think more rational. But, at times I get a little to excited. It appears many things are firing inside this bucket of a head of mine.
Larry, I loved the O-chem stuff. The best grades I got in college were in O-chem. Take care you guys and keep us posted on the niacin.
johnj
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2003, at 12:07:34
In reply to Re: here are links to graphics of the structures » Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on May 23, 2003, at 11:05:37
> Larry,
>
> Thanks for the links. It was reassuring to see that the mental pictures I had formulated for the structures of these compounds based on your written descriptions were the same as the drawings in the links.A-hah! You *were* paying attention in o-chem! You just don't want to admit the true depth of your geekiness. <smirk>
> I am amazed how well 250 mg/day of nicotinic acid treats my irritability. I’m currently splitting it into two 125 mg doses taken morning and late afternoon. I have always been under the impression that the B’s should be taken together as a complex and taken shortly after a meal. However, I’m finding benefit from taking nicotinic acid in isolation and on an empty stomach. Any thoughts on this issue?
The B-complex concept is a good rule of thumb, simply because an abundance of some B's will mask deficiencies in others, until possibly permanent adverse effects appear.
So long as you get the other B's along the way (actually, a weekly running average concept is useful here), you're OK. If you perceive your use of niacinamide as direct treatment for an idiosyncratic biochemical quirk, it makes perfect sense, non?
> I sure hope that the efficacy continues indefinitely, and I think it will because, like you said previously, it does not build up in the body. I'll write more details in a post to Johnj subsequently in this thread. Thanks again Lar.I see no reason for the benefit to diminish, unless there happens to be some sort of change in receptor regulation. I'm stretching, to even suggest that.
> How’re your CFS symptoms doing lately? Is Enada NADH still providing some amount of beneficial effect? If so, roughly how many milligrams do you take per week? Still taking the sublingual formulation?
>
> -- RonI'm using the Enada purely on a gut-level sense of need, intuitive. That seems to work for me. Initially, I think I got my NADH saturation up, and now it just needs occasional tweaking. There's an alternative explanation than NADH deficiency, per se. It is possible that there is another substance that accumulates unless there is more than enough NADH to go around. The "other stuff" excess might lead to symptoms.
I'd say I'm using 5 mg/week, on a running average basis. Despite a gruelling series of trips over the last four weeks, I'm not feeling even the slightest glimmer of imminent decline. More typically, by the last week of my work session, I'm noticeably sliding.
My pdoc had nothing to offer me in the way of treatment for the CFS (possible drug strategies were not covered by my limited disability drug benefits), and no possible referrals to specialists were available (they're already swamped with patients). He was most interested in my anecdotal experience, and recorded all the details. I suspect he's going to look into it, and possibly use the idea in his practice. My GP (general practitioner) doctor has already made use of it.
Lar
Posted by Ron Hill on May 23, 2003, at 12:16:25
In reply to Xanthinol Nicotinate-another form of Niacin-, posted by Paulie on May 23, 2003, at 10:38:06
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the information.
> This is a form of Niacin which I sometimes take.
> Not sold in U.S. though.Then where does one buy it? Do you know why it is not sold in the States? I thought that pretty much all supplements are sold here. Is it a prescription item in those countries where it is available?
It's probably best not to provide links in your response in keeping with Dr. Bob's policy prohibiting the posting of web-site URL’s that sell products that are "illegal" to buy in the U.S. (Just trying to avoid getting yelled at.)
-- Ron
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2003, at 13:06:42
In reply to Re: Xanthinol Nicotinate-another form of Niacin- » Paulie, posted by Ron Hill on May 23, 2003, at 12:16:25
> Hi Paul,
>
> Thanks for the information.
>
> > This is a form of Niacin which I sometimes take.
> > Not sold in U.S. though.
>
> Then where does one buy it? Do you know why it is not sold in the States? I thought that pretty much all supplements are sold here. Is it a prescription item in those countries where it is available?
>
> It's probably best not to provide links in your response in keeping with Dr. Bob's policy prohibiting the posting of web-site URL’s that sell products that are "illegal" to buy in the U.S. (Just trying to avoid getting yelled at.)
>
> -- RonXanthine is really a small class of related compounds, including caffeine, theophylline, and theobromine.
According to my references, xanthinol nicotinate is the ester of theophylline and nicotinic acid. Theophylline is used in asthma therapy, as it is a bronchodilator. It is also a mild stimulant, and a vasodilator.
The idea that it is somehow more potent than other forms of niacin seems absurd to me, as I can't see how it could escape de-esterification in the stomach, yielding free theophylline and nicotinic acid (niacin). The combination will probably give you a buzz, but you could probably achieve the same thing by eating dark chocolate along with niacin.
Lar
Posted by Paulie on May 23, 2003, at 14:45:46
In reply to Re: Xanthinol Nicotinate-another form of Niacin- » Paulie, posted by Ron Hill on May 23, 2003, at 12:16:25
Hello Ron,
I am almost positive this is an RX in other countries. I have not seen it available in US. I read about it many years ago in a book on brain enhancement. It was recommended for depression on an overseas anti-aging website. This was there suggetion:SYNERGISTIC PROGRAMS - DEPRESSION
Deprenyl: 1mg to 3mg daily.
5HTP 50mg 1 to 3 times daily with meals and 100mg at bedtime (or L-Tryptophan 500mg 1 to 3 times daily and 1000mg at bedtime, note this is OR not both together).
Gerovital-H3: 100mg to 200mg daily in the morning on an empty stomach.
NADH Sublingual: 4mg to 8mg 1 or 2 times daily .
Xanthinol Nicotinate: 150mg to 300mg 3 times daily (take with food).
Nutritional Support: DL-Phenylalanine 100mg to 500mg 1 to 3 times daily (reduce dosage is over-stimulated): Vitamin B1 50mg to 100mg daily: Vitamin B3 100mg to 500mg daily: Vitamin B6 50mg to 100mg daily: Folic Acid 800mcg to 5000mcg daily: Methylcobalamin (coenzyme B12) 1000mcg to 5000mcg daily (as a sublingual): Magnesium 100mg to 200mg 2 or 3 times daily.Paul
Posted by Paulie on May 23, 2003, at 15:12:32
In reply to Re: Xanthinol Nicotinate-another form of Niacin-, posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2003, at 13:06:42
Hello Larry,
Interesting point that you make. I have found this info on it but researching for more.
From
http://www.vitaminconnection.com/101_txt/0330_05_Niacin.htmlABSTRACT: The treatment effect of nicotinic acid and xanthinol nicotinate on human memory was compared with placebo in 96 healthy subjects. Forty-three subjects were young (35-45 years), 30 subjects middle aged (55-65_years) and 23 subjects were old aged (75-85 years). Pre-and post-treatment scores were measured on a battery of memory tasks, covering sensory register, short-term memory and long-term memory. The treatment regime was 1 dragee t.i.d. for 8 weeks. The administration of xanthinol nicotinate (500 mg, containing 141.7 mg nicotinic acid), nicotinic acid (141.7 mg) and placebo (lactose) was double-blind. Pre- and post-treatment scores were analyzed by means of a multivariate covariance technique, the pre-treatment score serving as covariate. Nicotinic acid treatment resulted in improvement of sensory register and short-term memory, while xanthinol nicotinate improved sensory register, short-term memory and long-term memory. In comparison with placebo, both active compounds yielded improvements of 10-40%. depending on type of task. Treatment effects of nicotinic acid were predominantly found in the young and middle-aged, whereas treatment effects of xanthinol nicotinate were predominantly found in the old. These results are interpreted by the supposed activity of nicotinic acid at the cell membrane. improving neuronal transmission. and of xanthinol nicotinate inside the cell, enhancing cell metabolism and oxygen supply in the brain.
Paul
Posted by Ron Hill on May 24, 2003, at 15:57:41
In reply to Re: here are links to graphics...Larry » Ron Hill, posted by johnj on May 23, 2003, at 11:49:17
John-John,
I am indebted to you for years to come for your suggestion that I try niacinamide for treatment of my dysphoric mood states. Although I deviated from your instructions slightly by taking niacin instead of niacinamide (and then lied about the deviation), it is working well beyond my wildest imaginations. I owe ya John. Thanks!!
I’m hereby your indentured servant for the foreseeable future. Therefore, as soon as I finish washing and waxing the exterior and detailing the interior of your car, I’ll get the lawn cut and trimmed. Shall I pour you a glass of wine and place it tub-side when I draw your hot bath this evening? Bubbles or no bubbles tonight, sir?
For a more detailed discussion of my experience with this supplement in the early stages of the trial, please read: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030520/msgs/228869.html
As for you, since you began taking Remeron a week or so ago, the writing style in your posts has improved markedly and your attitude has transformed from pessimistic to guardedly optimistic. Sounds like you might be on the right track. Let's hope.
Thanks MUCH!
-- Ron
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2003, at 16:17:17
In reply to If these results continue, I'll owe you BIG TIME! » johnj, posted by Ron Hill on May 24, 2003, at 15:57:41
> John-John,
>
> I am indebted to you for years to come for your suggestion that I try niacinamide for treatment of my dysphoric mood states. Although I deviated from your instructions slightly by taking niacin instead of niacinamide (and then lied about the deviation), it is working well beyond my wildest imaginations. I owe ya John. Thanks!!Thanks for having both the courage to try new things, and the compassion for sharing the outcome with others.
Lar
Posted by Ron Hill on May 25, 2003, at 1:19:35
In reply to Re: Vitamin therapy! Who'd have thought of that? » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2003, at 16:17:17
Because I'm indebted to you (and many others on this site) in a similar fashion as I am to John. However, it might be a few months before I can get over to your house. As it turns out, John-John has a boat load of projects laid out for me.
> Thanks for having both the courage to try new things, and the compassion for sharing the outcome with others.
Those are kind words. Thank you.
-- Ron
P.S. What's the food like around your place?
Posted by johnj on May 25, 2003, at 9:01:31
In reply to If these results continue, I'll owe you BIG TIME! » johnj, posted by Ron Hill on May 24, 2003, at 15:57:41
Ron
I can't rememberhow the thread started but if I helped that makes me feel really good. It sometimes seems I ask and don't give out very much. If I am able to help someone else this illness is not in vain.
You, Larry, and Colin have helped me a tremendous amount over more than a year. I hope this holds for you. Remeron is doing a great job so far but I remain cautious. Wouldn't it be cool if we found a key to our health? Have a great weekend!
Keep us posted on how it goes, as I will do the same.
BTW my car can't be washed since the rust is the only thing holding it together! :)johnj
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 25, 2003, at 9:08:22
In reply to When I'm done at John's, I'll swing by your place. » Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on May 25, 2003, at 1:19:35
> Because I'm indebted to you (and many others on this site) in a similar fashion as I am to John. However, it might be a few months before I can get over to your house. As it turns out, John-John has a boat load of projects laid out for me.
Hey, I wasn't fishin' for gratitude. Thanks.
> > Thanks for having both the courage to try new things, and the compassion for sharing the outcome with others.
>
> Those are kind words. Thank you.
>
> -- Ron
>
> P.S. What's the food like around your place?I'm a great cook, Ron.
I really like this forum. The environment is conducive to collaborative efforts, and the sharing of ideas (thanks, Dr. Bob, for your civility standards).
Lar
Posted by Ron Hill on May 25, 2003, at 9:56:41
In reply to Re: When I'm done at John's, I'll swing by your place. » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on May 25, 2003, at 9:08:22
Lar,
> Hey, I wasn't fishin' for gratitude. Thanks.
Yeah, I know. Actually, I mentally drafted the brief post to your attention while sitting in the sauna yesterday afternoon prior to reading your post.
> I'm a great cook, Ron.
Good, I'm a great eater.
> I really like this forum. The environment is conducive to collaborative efforts, and the sharing of ideas (thanks, Dr. Bob, for your civility standards).Agreed!
-- Ron
Posted by bookgurl99 on May 25, 2003, at 18:08:41
In reply to Re: Vitamin therapy! Who'd have thought of that? » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2003, at 16:17:17
Hey guys,
I'm recently off Zoloft (2 weeks), and am taking vitamins in an effort to treat my symptoms of fatigue, low energy, poor follow-through, poor concentration, mild to moderate depression with moderate to severe anxiety. I'm also hypothyroid, so some of the symptoms may stem from that.
I'm feeling somewhat better than on Zoloft, but uncomfortably stimulated and hyper. Does anyone know which of these may be giving me that effect? (It's also occurred to me that if Zoloft affected the absorption of thyroid hormone, I may simply need less now. Goin' to the dr. this week to check it out.)
:
Daily multivation, with Beta Carotene(20000 IU),C,E, Selenium (200 mcg), COQ10 (30mg), chromium, B's,including niacin (25mg), plus some other vitamins.B- 50 Complex (w/50 mgs's of the big B's, plus 200 of folic acid)
(is this too many B's?)For boosting energy, adapting to stress:
Ashwaganda -- 300 mg
Cordyceps -- 615 mg
Siberian Ginseng -- 450 mg(got these as part of a 3 for the price of one promotion -- maybe they're just 'too' energy providing for me?)
"Natural Anti-depressant"
St. John's Wort -- 300 mg x 3 (am stopping to see if symptoms improve)Omega-3 300 mg X 2
"Natural Anti-anxiety"
Cal-Mag Citrate 375 mg x 3
1 Evening Primrose Oil (410 mg, s'posed to help w/ pms)sleepytime help (to combat SSRI WD rebound insomnia).
Valerian Root w/ small amt. of passionflower (one of those 'sleepytime' type vitamin bottles)
hmm . . . i wonder if it's the stimulating effect of the gingensg/ashwaganda/cordyceps. i might cut back and add one at a time so i know what's doing what.any ideas? i kind of jumped into this hardcore, from being tired of being tired and depressive. now i'm not 'hypomanic,' but i a 'hyper.' maybe i'm just not used to having energy?
boks
Posted by Ron Hill on May 26, 2003, at 0:35:03
In reply to Re: Vitamin therapy! /Jumping in to the fray, posted by bookgurl99 on May 25, 2003, at 18:08:41
Hi Books,
I quit taking ginseng and ginko biloba a couple years ago because I felt like one or both were causing increased anxiety and irritability. Don't know if this has any applicability to your situation.
You're not taking too much of the B's.
Take this with a grain of salt since I know very little about your dx and rx history, but maybe niacinamide or niacin in the range of 250 - 500 mg/day would help to take the edge off. Also, I wonder if about 25 mg/day of 5-HTP would help?
-- Ron
---------------------------
> Hey guys,
>
> I'm recently off Zoloft (2 weeks), and am taking vitamins in an effort to treat my symptoms of fatigue, low energy, poor follow-through, poor concentration, mild to moderate depression with moderate to severe anxiety. I'm also hypothyroid, so some of the symptoms may stem from that.
>
> I'm feeling somewhat better than on Zoloft, but uncomfortably stimulated and hyper. Does anyone know which of these may be giving me that effect? (It's also occurred to me that if Zoloft affected the absorption of thyroid hormone, I may simply need less now. Goin' to the dr. this week to check it out.)
>
> :
> Daily multivation, with Beta Carotene(20000 IU),C,E, Selenium (200 mcg), COQ10 (30mg), chromium, B's,including niacin (25mg), plus some other vitamins.
>
> B- 50 Complex (w/50 mgs's of the big B's, plus 200 of folic acid)
> (is this too many B's?)
>
> For boosting energy, adapting to stress:
> Ashwaganda -- 300 mg
> Cordyceps -- 615 mg
> Siberian Ginseng -- 450 mg
>
> (got these as part of a 3 for the price of one promotion -- maybe they're just 'too' energy providing for me?)
>
> "Natural Anti-depressant"
> St. John's Wort -- 300 mg x 3 (am stopping to see if symptoms improve)
>
> Omega-3 300 mg X 2
>
>
> "Natural Anti-anxiety"
> Cal-Mag Citrate 375 mg x 3
> 1 Evening Primrose Oil (410 mg, s'posed to help w/ pms)
>
> sleepytime help (to combat SSRI WD rebound insomnia).
> Valerian Root w/ small amt. of passionflower (one of those 'sleepytime' type vitamin bottles)
>
>
> hmm . . . i wonder if it's the stimulating effect of the gingensg/ashwaganda/cordyceps. i might cut back and add one at a time so i know what's doing what.
>
> any ideas? i kind of jumped into this hardcore, from being tired of being tired and depressive. now i'm not 'hypomanic,' but i a 'hyper.' maybe i'm just not used to having energy?
>
> boks
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 26, 2003, at 8:02:40
In reply to Re: Vitamin therapy! /Jumping in to the fray, posted by bookgurl99 on May 25, 2003, at 18:08:41
> Hey guys,
>
> I'm recently off Zoloft (2 weeks), and am taking vitamins in an effort to treat my symptoms of fatigue, low energy, poor follow-through, poor concentration, mild to moderate depression with moderate to severe anxiety. I'm also hypothyroid, so some of the symptoms may stem from that.
>
> I'm feeling somewhat better than on Zoloft, but uncomfortably stimulated and hyper. Does anyone know which of these may be giving me that effect? (It's also occurred to me that if Zoloft affected the absorption of thyroid hormone, I may simply need less now. Goin' to the dr. this week to check it out.)
>
> :
> Daily multivation, with Beta Carotene(20000 IU),C,E, Selenium (200 mcg), COQ10 (30mg), chromium, B's,including niacin (25mg), plus some other vitamins.You should add zinc, 40 mg/day. Alpha-lipoic acid enhances the activity of C and E, and is an antioxidant in its own right.
> B- 50 Complex (w/50 mgs's of the big B's, plus 200 of folic acid)
> (is this too many B's?)No. If anything, I'd double your current dosing. B's can be activating, so don't take them later in the day if insomnia might be a problem for you. Also, as mentioned in other threads, niacinamide is anxiolytic. You could consider it as a separate treatment concern, dosing up to 500 mg three times a day.
In general, the B's are non-toxic in the doses we're considering, or even ten times those doses. Vitamin B poisoning is vastly exaggerated.
> For boosting energy, adapting to stress:
> Ashwaganda -- 300 mg
> Cordyceps -- 615 mg
> Siberian Ginseng -- 450 mg
>
> (got these as part of a 3 for the price of one promotion -- maybe they're just 'too' energy providing for me?)That's where I'd be looking. Some of these are uncomfortably stimulating on their own. As a combination, and with SJW, you are probably over-doing it. I'd recommend cutting these out altogether, stabilize for a couple weeks, then add them back in individually to see what they do to the mix.
> "Natural Anti-depressant"
> St. John's Wort -- 300 mg x 3 (am stopping to see if symptoms improve)I wouldn't cut this out (my opinion). Cut the adaptogens (the thre herbs above). SJW is calming, for most people.
> Omega-3 300 mg X 2
>
>
> "Natural Anti-anxiety"
> Cal-Mag Citrate 375 mg x 3
> 1 Evening Primrose Oil (410 mg, s'posed to help w/ pms)
>
> sleepytime help (to combat SSRI WD rebound insomnia).
> Valerian Root w/ small amt. of passionflower (one of those 'sleepytime' type vitamin bottles)
>
>
> hmm . . . i wonder if it's the stimulating effect of the gingensg/ashwaganda/cordyceps. i might cut back and add one at a time so i know what's doing what.You must have read my mind. <grin>
> any ideas? i kind of jumped into this hardcore, from being tired of being tired and depressive. now i'm not 'hypomanic,' but i a 'hyper.' maybe i'm just not used to having energy?
>
> boksYour body will adapt, with time. It's possible that you've corrected some metabolic deficiencies, and you're just not used to feeling that level of energy. By making so many changes all at once, it's very hard to figure out just what is doing what.
Good luck,
Lar
Posted by bookgurl99 on May 26, 2003, at 8:34:34
In reply to Re: Vitamin therapy! /Jumping in to the fray » bookgurl99, posted by Ron Hill on May 26, 2003, at 0:35:03
> Hi Books,
>
> I quit taking ginseng and ginko biloba a couple years ago because I felt like one or both were causing increased anxiety and irritability. Don't know if this has any applicability to your situation.
>Interesting, thx for sharing your experience. I think I've heard of precautions about ginseng for folks with anxiety. It _is_ nice to have the increased energy, though.
I'm thinking of dumping the 'tonics' and adding a nice dopaminergic precursor like l-tyrosine or DLPA in the morning.
We'll see though; I have a month's supply of this stuff. Might give it a shot for the whole month.
books
Posted by johnj on May 26, 2003, at 11:12:04
In reply to Re: When I'm done at John's, I'll swing by your place. » Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on May 25, 2003, at 9:56:41
I'm on remeron.....so I am definatley a good eater!!! I don't really care how much weight I gain if I feel like I do at this moment.
Thanks Larry for being so open with your knowledge. This site has given me the hope and push when I needed it the most. A true test came yesterday at a funeral of my wife's co-worker. I made it through and was actually able to comfort my wife. Something I haven't been very good at lately. I am still cautious but hopeful. Have a good one.
johnj
Posted by johnj on May 26, 2003, at 11:15:36
In reply to Re: Vitamin therapy! /Jumping in to the fray » bookgurl99, posted by Ron Hill on May 26, 2003, at 0:35:03
I used to have good luck with Korean ginseng, but American made me irritable and heightened my anxiety. Ginko made me spacey. I haven't been able to take any ginseng for about two years. I stopped korean ginseng for awhile and now have not been able to go back. I have had very similiar reactions that Ron had. Hope you find the right combo. good luck
johnj
Posted by leor on May 26, 2003, at 11:55:34
In reply to Re: Vitamin therapy!, bookgurl, » Ron Hill, posted by johnj on May 26, 2003, at 11:15:36
Dear fellow Babblers:
Thank you for sharing your discussions about NADH & B3. I have also been having issues with these substances of late and wondered if any of you fellow users might have some advice.
I take NADH to boost my motivation. For the past five months I have taken it after waking up in a dose of 5mg. NADH positively affected my motivation for the first month or so, but gradually the effect began tapering off. Side effects were also in evidence: irritability, torpor.
Last Friday I learnt that NADH builds up in the body and, given my irritability problems, came to the conclusion that I should experiment with reducing my intake to 5mg every other day.
On both Saturday and today I skipped the morning dose. Within hours, I felt incredibly fatigued to the point that I spent the better part of Saturday in bed.On Sunday I took the NADH again and it noticeably elevated my mood (much as it did during the initial period). I had one of the nicest, most productive days in weeks.
I wonder what to do on the off days? (Such as this one). Being that this is a school-day I could not stay under the covers all day and thus tried to spring into action at 8 A.M.. What I found as I interacted with my family was that I was quite irritable and that my O.C.D. was flaring up. I began vocally obsessing about something while conversing with my mother (something that has"t occurred for months).
I am wondering how to proceed? Could this just be an issue of NADH withdrawal which needs to be endured until my body adapts? Or is some other factor responsible for my extreme fatigue and heightened irritability?
At the risk of trying your patience, I have included a list of the supplements I use (currently I am not taking any prescription drugs). I wonder if there could be any negative interactions (or lack of a synergy) due to the stoppage of the NADH.
NADH - 005mg - every second day
Chelated Pottasium - 200mg - 2X daily
Chelated Magnesium - 350mg - 2X daily
Chelated Calcium - 1000mg - 1X daily
B12 sublingual tablets - 0001mg - 2X daily
Vitamin C - 2000mg - 2X daily
OPC (grape seed extract) - 0150mg - 2X daily
Vitamin E - 400 IU - 2X daily
P-5-P (vitamin B6) - 060 mg - 2X daily
Niacin - 500 mg - 2X daily
Essential Fatty Acid supplement - 3X dailyMany thanks for your observations,
yours,
Leor
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