![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 38 to 62 of 79. Go back in thread:
Posted by Ron Hill on May 20, 2003, at 0:19:51
In reply to Hey guys ｻ Ron Hill, posted by johnj on May 14, 2003, at 13:43:28
John,
> Ron, give niacinamide a try ...
Hey, you were right. I took 500 mg of niacinamide and it did two things. First, it caused my skin to become bright red and tingly all over, and, second, it reduced my irritability (for a while anyway). I get the feeling, however, that it would lose its effectiveness if I were to take it every day. Any insight regarding its long-term efficacy for the treatment of irritability (anger outbursts)?
Thanks for the tip, John!
-- Ron
Posted by johnj on May 20, 2003, at 9:22:24
In reply to Niacinamide reduces irritability (anecdotal) ｻ johnj, posted by Ron Hill on May 20, 2003, at 0:19:51
Hi Ron,
I find it also does mellow me out, but I somehow don't see myself able to tolerate 3 to 4 doses a day of 500 mg of niacinamide. It is not supposed to cause the flush, but like you, I found myself flushing but not in the way pure niacin does. Us med sensitive guys cannot overdo anything and I do not think it would work in place of a benzo 100%. I will take smaller doses.
I am back on remeron and feel better and able to function here at work. Just hope some of the side effects are more tolerable now.
Things going well for you? take care my friend.
johnj
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 11:14:36
In reply to Niacinamide reduces irritability (anecdotal) ｻ johnj, posted by Ron Hill on May 20, 2003, at 0:19:51
> John,
>
> > Ron, give niacinamide a try ...
>
> Hey, you were right. I took 500 mg of niacinamide and it did two things. First, it caused my skin to become bright red and tingly all over, and, second, it reduced my irritability (for a while anyway). I get the feeling, however, that it would lose its effectiveness if I were to take it every day. Any insight regarding its long-term efficacy for the treatment of irritability (anger outbursts)?
>
> Thanks for the tip, John!
>
> -- RonHey, Ron. I'm a little surprised to find that you had classic niacin flush from niacinamide. You may be encouraged to learn that most people quickly adapt to even niacin, and the flush symptoms gradually reduce to nothing.
I've been looking at dosing for niacinamide, and I'm starting to think this may be another "wonder nutrient". Just go to Pubmed and plug in "niacinamide diabetes". Maintenance doses are 25 mg/kg, which is 1750 mg/day for your typical 70 kg adult male. In other treatment protocols, doses of 60 mg/kg are used.
I wouldn't be too concerned that there is a possibility of adapting to the dose you're taking, i.e. diminished effectiveness vis a vis irritability. Niacinamide is not stored in the body to any appreciable extent.
Just for the record, irritability is one of the symptoms of niacin/niacinamide deficiency. Perhaps you've got a genetic biochemical quirk that requires a little "helping hand" with supplementation?
Lar
Posted by McPac on May 21, 2003, at 21:40:17
In reply to Niacinamide reduces irritability (anecdotal) ｻ johnj, posted by Ron Hill on May 20, 2003, at 0:19:51
Might any of your meds be causing the irritability/anger problems?
Posted by Ron Hill on May 21, 2003, at 21:42:39
In reply to Re: Niacinamide reduces irritability (anecdotal) ｻ Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 11:14:36
Larry,
Thanks for your post.
> Hey, Ron. I'm a little surprised to find that you had classic niacin flush from niacinamide.
Figures I'd get caught in my lie. Johnj emphasized the need to take niacinamide (as opposed to niacin), however, my wife takes niacin periodically so I tried some of what we already had laying around the house until I can get over to the nutritional store to buy some niacinamide. I lied in my post and said that I took 500mg of niacinamide (when I actually took 500 mg of niacin) so that my friend Johnj would not yell at me.
Why is niacinamide preferable to niacin, anyhow?
> Just go to Pubmed and plug in "niacinamide diabetes". Maintenance doses are 25 mg/kg, which is 1750 mg/day for your typical 70 kg adult male. In other treatment protocols, doses of 60 mg/kg are used.
Thanks, Larry; I'll check it out. <How do you know if I am lying or telling the truth?>
> Just for the record, irritability is one of the symptoms of niacin/niacinamide deficiency. Perhaps you've got a genetic biochemical quirk that requires a little "helping hand" with supplementation?
Maybe; I don't know. It does seem to reduce my irritability quite noticeably. But now I'm having trouble with my atypical depression. I'm not sure what's going on. I went two weeks between Enada NADH doses, so maybe that's it. Part of me wants to speculate that niacin (NAD) counteracts the antidepressive effects of NADH. Enada NADH reduces my atypical depression but increases my irritability. On the other hand, NAD reduces my irritability, but might it also be adversely affecting my atypical depression? Who knows. What I do know is that I've gotta suck it up and get myself out of this low motivational, apathetic pit.
Thanks again, Larry and John.
-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on May 22, 2003, at 0:33:27
In reply to Re: Niacinamide reduces irritability (anecdotal) ｻ Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 11:14:36
Larry and John,
I've started to do some reading on niacinamide and so far I'm confused by the nomenclature. Which one of these am I supposed to take and why?
nicotianmide
NAD (ﾟ-Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide)
niacinamide
nicotinic acidThe ingredient list for the product shown at the following web-page link leads me to believe that niacinamide is the same as nicotinic acid:
http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/niacinamide2.html
If that's the case, then I didn't lie in my previous post when I stated that I took 500 mg of niacinamide because, as chance would have it, my wife's "niacin" is nicotinic acid.
Thank you very much for you help.
-- Ron
P.S. I took 2.5 mg of Enada NADH a few hours ago and my depression seems to be lifting. Who knows. Time will tell.
Posted by Ron Hill on May 22, 2003, at 5:27:40
In reply to Re: Niacinamide reduces irritability (anecdotal) ｻ Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 11:14:36
Larry and Johnj,
I should do my homework before I bug you guys with the type of questions I asked in my post immediately above. I値l briefly answer my own questions and then I値l state my plans regarding my vitamin B3 trial.
<Answers>
Vitamin B3 comes in two basic forms; niacin (also called nicotinic acid) and niacinamide (also called nicotinamide). A variation on niacin, called inosital hexaniacinate, is also available in supplements. Because it has not been linked with any of the usual niacin toxicity in scientific research, inositol hexaniacinate is sometimes prescribed by European doctors for those who need high amounts of niacin.Vitamin B3 as niacinamide may be beneficial in the treatment of anxiety. It has been shown in animals to work in the brain in ways similar to drugs, such as benzodiazepines (Valiumｮ-type drugs), which are used to treat anxiety. One study found that niacinamide (not niacin) could help people get through withdrawal from benzodiazepines, a common problem. A reasonable amount of niacinamide to take for anxiety, according to some doctors, is up to 500 mg four times per day.
<Plan>
Although 250 mg/day of niacin (nicotinic acid) seems to help my irritability, it appears from what I have read that niacinamide is the better form of vitamin B3 for this purpose. Therefore, I値l buy some niacinamide and start out taking about 100 mg three to five times a day. I値l miss the niacin flush, however. I kind of liked it.One other option might be to try NAD, but I'd have to read more to determine the advantages and disadvantages associated with this approach.
What da ya think?
-- Ron
-------------------------------------
> Larry and John,
>
> I've started to do some reading on niacinamide and so far I'm confused by the nomenclature. Which one of these am I supposed to take and why?
>
> nicotianmide
> NAD (ﾟ-Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide)
> niacinamide
> nicotinic acid
>
> The ingredient list for the product shown at the following web-page link leads me to believe that niacinamide is the same as nicotinic acid:
>
> http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/niacinamide2.html
>
> If that's the case, then I didn't lie in my previous post when I stated that I took 500 mg of niacinamide because, as chance would have it, my wife's "niacin" is nicotinic acid.
>
> Thank you very much for you help.
>
> -- Ron
>
>
> P.S. I took 2.5 mg of Enada NADH a few hours ago and my depression seems to be lifting. Who knows. Time will tell.
Posted by Ron Hill on May 22, 2003, at 6:58:39
In reply to Ron, Niacinamide reduces irritability (anecdotal), posted by McPac on May 21, 2003, at 21:40:17
Hi McPac,
> Might any of your meds be causing the irritability/anger problems?
Yes. Although Enada NADH provides good relief for the atypical depressive component of my bipolar disorder, it can also (unfortunately) cause severe irritability (flash rage). If I take more than one 2.5 mg tablet about once per week, irritability becomes very bothersome.
I'd love to take more Enada NADH in order to keep my atypical depression more fully in check, but I hate the dysphoric mood state more than I hate the depression. Trust me, I hate the depression (I retreat and sleep 24/7). But the dysphoric rage is even worse because it destroys relationships and makes me want to jump out of my skin.
Additionally, I typically have a low-level impatience/irritability thing going on in the background which is not attributable to medications or supplements. Over the years I've assumed that this is just part of my bipolar disorder, but now I'm wondering if a vitamin B3 mal-absorption issue could be involved in some way. At any rate, I plan to conduct a trial of niacinamide and see what happens.
Thanks for your concern McPac. I hope you are doing well.
-- Ron
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 22, 2003, at 8:21:36
In reply to After 5hrs of reading about B3, here's what I got: ｻ Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on May 22, 2003, at 5:27:40
> Although 250 mg/day of niacin (nicotinic acid) seems to help my irritability, it appears from what I have read that niacinamide is the better form of vitamin B3 for this purpose. Therefore, I値l buy some niacinamide and start out taking about 100 mg three to five times a day. I値l miss the niacin flush, however. I kind of liked it.
>
> One other option might be to try NAD, but I'd have to read more to determine the advantages and disadvantages associated with this approach.
>
> What da ya think?
>
> -- RonNiacinamide supplementation has been demonstrated to increase NADH levels, so you may no longer need the Enada.
Lar
Posted by Ron Hill on May 22, 2003, at 9:36:52
In reply to Re: After 5hrs of reading about B3, here's what I got:, posted by Larry Hoover on May 22, 2003, at 8:21:36
> Niacinamide supplementation has been demonstrated to increase NADH levels, so you may no longer need the Enada.
Yeah, maybe. But if so, what the heck am I going to do with my three-year supply of Enada NADH?
-- Ron
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 22, 2003, at 10:13:19
In reply to Re: Relationship between niacinamide and NADH ｻ Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on May 22, 2003, at 9:36:52
> > Niacinamide supplementation has been demonstrated to increase NADH levels, so you may no longer need the Enada.
>
> Yeah, maybe. But if so, what the heck am I going to do with my three-year supply of Enada NADH?
>
> -- RonOpen a supplement store?
Posted by Ron Hill on May 22, 2003, at 15:15:56
In reply to Re: Relationship between niacinamide and NADH, posted by Larry Hoover on May 22, 2003, at 10:13:19
Larry,
Quick question. I'm hoping you might know the answer off the top of your fact filled head. If not, no need to spend a bunch of your time trying to track down an answer.
I'm intrigued by the alternate names for niacin (i.e.; nicotinic acid) and niacinamide (i.e.; nicotinamide). Are these substances related to nicotine and/or do they interact with nicotine receptors in some fashion?
Thanks much!
-- Ron
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 22, 2003, at 16:24:41
In reply to Re: Quick question about niacin and niacinamide ｻ Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on May 22, 2003, at 15:15:56
> Larry,
>
> Quick question. I'm hoping you might know the answer off the top of your fact filled head.What makes you think that I have a fact filled head? <spock eyebrow>
> If not, no need to spend a bunch of your time trying to track down an answer.
I told you, I love questions.
> I'm intrigued by the alternate names for niacin (i.e.; nicotinic acid) and niacinamide (i.e.; nicotinamide). Are these substances related to nicotine and/or do they interact with nicotine receptors in some fashion?
>
> Thanks much!
>
> -- RonYes, they are structurally related. All are based on pyridine rings, which is like a benzene ring, but with one nitrogen atom.
In the meta position from that nitrogen, a carboxylic acid group makes it nicotinic acid. The amide of ammonia with the nicotinic acid is called nicotinamide. Substituting a pyrrhole ring (five carbon, with a nitrogen) for the carboxylic acid group, and adding a methyl group to the pyrrholic nitrogen, gives you nicotine. Nicotine can be oxidized to nicotinic acid, but I have no idea of the extent of that conversion in vivo.
The so-called nicotinic receptor is sensitive to exogenous (from outside) substances, including nicotine. It's rather intellectually arrogant to call it a nicotinic receptor, just as it's arrogant to think of a benzodiazepine receptor. Anyway, the receptor is actually one for acetylcholine, generally an excitatory class, but there are inhibitory versions, too. It's simple to say that the nicotinic receptor is cholinergic.
It is my understanding that niacinamide has some affinity for the nicotinic receptor. You may recall that I suggested, in my response to John, that there are both sedative and excitatory effects from using niacinamide. In most people, the sedative effect is dominant. Individual brains may vary.
Yer welcome.
Lar
Posted by Ron Hill on May 23, 2003, at 1:10:23
In reply to Re: Quick question about niacin and niacinamide, posted by Larry Hoover on May 22, 2003, at 16:24:41
Interesting. Thank you very much Larry. This one has extra meat so I have to chew on it a bit longer than usual. I could probably chew faster if I had smoked a little less dope and attended organic a little more regularly back when I was a lad.
Thanks!
-- Ron
----------------------------------------
> > I'm intrigued by the alternate names for niacin (i.e.; nicotinic acid) and niacinamide (i.e.; nicotinamide). Are these substances related to nicotine and/or do they interact with nicotine receptors in some fashion?> Yes, they are structurally related. All are based on pyridine rings, which is like a benzene ring, but with one nitrogen atom.
> In the meta position from that nitrogen, a carboxylic acid group makes it nicotinic acid. The amide of ammonia with the nicotinic acid is called nicotinamide. Substituting a pyrrhole ring (five carbon, with a nitrogen) for the carboxylic acid group, and adding a methyl group to the pyrrholic nitrogen, gives you nicotine. Nicotine can be oxidized to nicotinic acid, but I have no idea of the extent of that conversion in vivo.
> The so-called nicotinic receptor is sensitive to exogenous (from outside) substances, including nicotine. It's rather intellectually arrogant to call it a nicotinic receptor, just as it's arrogant to think of a benzodiazepine receptor. Anyway, the receptor is actually one for acetylcholine, generally an excitatory class, but there are inhibitory versions, too. It's simple to say that the nicotinic receptor is cholinergic.> It is my understanding that niacinamide has some affinity for the nicotinic receptor. You may recall that I suggested, in my response to John, that there are both sedative and excitatory effects from using niacinamide. In most people, the sedative effect is dominant. Individual brains may vary.
> Yer welcome.
> Lar
Posted by Tony P on May 23, 2003, at 2:51:29
In reply to Re: Niacinamide reduces irritability (anecdotal) ｻ Ron Hill, posted by johnj on May 20, 2003, at 9:22:24
I am interested to hear that other pathways are being discovered for niacin/amide's effects.
In the early 70's I read with considerable personal interest the original research by Hoffer et al. into niacin and niacinamide (which led to most of the "megavitamin" therapies, BTW). They were looking initially at a population of GAD (anxiety) patients. They hypothesized that a considerable proportion of anxiety could be attributed to low blood sugar, especially reactive hypoglycemia. Niacin helps to stabilize blood sugar for such patients.
I personally tried it (up to 3 g/day), with moderately positive results. My 6 hr. blood glucose profile showed a moderate degree of reactive hypoglycemia, so presumably it helped with that. However, it came nowhere near replacing the 40-60 mg./day Valium I had been taking. (YMMV).
I thought it was only niacin that had the blood-sugar stabilizing effect (not niacinamide), but I may be thinking of the cholesterol lowering effect, which I am sure was only niacin.
Maybe I'll give it another try! Cure first, pharmacology later ... details at 11.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2003, at 7:19:08
In reply to I wish I'd payed more attention in organic chem ｻ Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on May 23, 2003, at 1:10:23
> Interesting. Thank you very much Larry. This one has extra meat so I have to chew on it a bit longer than usual. I could probably chew faster if I had smoked a little less dope and attended organic a little more regularly back when I was a lad.
>
> Thanks!
>
> -- RonSorry, Ron. I assumed you had paid attention in o-chem.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2003, at 9:35:24
In reply to I wish I'd payed more attention in organic chem ｻ Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on May 23, 2003, at 1:10:23
> Interesting. Thank you very much Larry. This one has extra meat so I have to chew on it a bit longer than usual. I could probably chew faster if I had smoked a little less dope and attended organic a little more regularly back when I was a lad.
>
> Thanks!
>
> -- Ronhttp://www.purchon.com/biology/nicotinic.htm
http://www.ch.ic.ac.uk/rzepa/mim/drugs/html/nicotine_text.htm
Posted by Paulie on May 23, 2003, at 10:38:06
In reply to How many forms of niacin are there? -- johnj and ｻ Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on May 22, 2003, at 0:33:27
This is a form of Niacin which I sometimes take.
Not sold in U.S. though.
XANTHINOL NICOTINATEXanthinol Nicotinate is a form of Niacin that passes easily through cell membranes; Xanthinol Nicotinate is the most potent form of Niacin available.
Xanthinol Nicotinate has been shown to increase brain glucose metabolism, improve brain ATP levels and improve brain blood flow (it acts as a vasodilator). As such, Xanthinol Nicotinate has been used to treat short-term memory disorders, mental flagging (i.e. lack of brain energy that compromises vigilance, concentration and attention) and insufficient blood flow to the arteries and the extremities. Furthermore Xanthinol Nicotinate has been clinically shown to improve the reaction speed of the elderly.
Xanthinol Nicotinate (like Niacin) can cause a flushing of the skin and a sense of warmth; it has therefore been suggested that Xanthinol Nicotinate can aid weight control through water loss. However we would suggest that Xanthinol Nicotinate be used for this purpose only prior to exercise or prior to climbing into a hot tub. This is in order to minimize the flushing affects that may be uncomfortable for some people.
Xanthinol Nicotinate can be used as an anti-aging memory support at 1 or 2 tablets (150mg each) three times a day, to a maximum of 12 tablets (1800mg total) prior to a workout or exercise.
Caution: build up to high doses gradually, Xanthinol Nicotinate at high doses can cause blood pressure changes and must therefore be avoided by persons suffering from peptic ulcers, liver problems, severe hypotension, myocardial infarction or other congestive heart problems.
At lower doses some minor side effects such as flushing, nausea, heartburn, itchy skin or vomiting (rare) may present themselves, these normally dissipate with a lower dose or continued use.
Paul
Posted by Ron Hill on May 23, 2003, at 11:05:37
In reply to Re: here are links to graphics of the structures ｻ Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2003, at 9:35:24
Larry,
Thanks for the links. It was reassuring to see that the mental pictures I had formulated for the structures of these compounds based on your written descriptions were the same as the drawings in the links.
I am amazed how well 250 mg/day of nicotinic acid treats my irritability. I知 currently splitting it into two 125 mg doses taken morning and late afternoon. I have always been under the impression that the B痴 should be taken together as a complex and taken shortly after a meal. However, I知 finding benefit from taking nicotinic acid in isolation and on an empty stomach. Any thoughts on this issue?
I sure hope that the efficacy continues indefinitely, and I think it will because, like you said previously, it does not build up in the body. I'll write more details in a post to Johnj subsequently in this thread. Thanks again Lar.
How池e your CFS symptoms doing lately? Is Enada NADH still providing some amount of beneficial effect? If so, roughly how many milligrams do you take per week? Still taking the sublingual formulation?
-- Ron
Posted by johnj on May 23, 2003, at 11:49:17
In reply to Re: here are links to graphics of the structures ｻ Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on May 23, 2003, at 11:05:37
Hi Guys
Great news that the niacin is working for you Ron. When I took 500 mg of niacinamide I did get a mild flush, but nothing like you would get on niacin. I currently am not taking the niaciamide. I had severe sleep troubles last week and it was due to a host of factors, some may be related to the doses of niacinamide I was taking. But, as Larry said, I will have to use process of elimination to see what contributed.
Good news is the remeron is working rather well. Today I have less pressure on the forehead and the staring/focusing problems have improved. This seems to be working so I will hang with it. The amazing thing is I was able to drop my benzo dose. I hope to drop the TCA and think it may help my side effects. It is hard to know how the two drugs interact. I would love to get down to just remeron and lithium. I refuse to give that up for it's neuroprotective function. IF, and that's a big IF, I will add some vitamins and supplements back. I need to get Larry a response to his question about sleep.
I have not tried Trazadone, but thought it might be better for sleep since it is not a benzo. I have some issues, no facts mind you, about my benzo use and increased depression. I thought trazadone may give me good sleep with some AD benefit?????
I was actually productive this week on remeron. My ability to understand what I have gone through the past year has also been heightened and I can think more rational. But, at times I get a little to excited. It appears many things are firing inside this bucket of a head of mine.
Larry, I loved the O-chem stuff. The best grades I got in college were in O-chem. Take care you guys and keep us posted on the niacin.
johnj
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2003, at 12:07:34
In reply to Re: here are links to graphics of the structures ｻ Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on May 23, 2003, at 11:05:37
> Larry,
>
> Thanks for the links. It was reassuring to see that the mental pictures I had formulated for the structures of these compounds based on your written descriptions were the same as the drawings in the links.A-hah! You *were* paying attention in o-chem! You just don't want to admit the true depth of your geekiness. <smirk>
> I am amazed how well 250 mg/day of nicotinic acid treats my irritability. I知 currently splitting it into two 125 mg doses taken morning and late afternoon. I have always been under the impression that the B痴 should be taken together as a complex and taken shortly after a meal. However, I知 finding benefit from taking nicotinic acid in isolation and on an empty stomach. Any thoughts on this issue?
The B-complex concept is a good rule of thumb, simply because an abundance of some B's will mask deficiencies in others, until possibly permanent adverse effects appear.
So long as you get the other B's along the way (actually, a weekly running average concept is useful here), you're OK. If you perceive your use of niacinamide as direct treatment for an idiosyncratic biochemical quirk, it makes perfect sense, non?
> I sure hope that the efficacy continues indefinitely, and I think it will because, like you said previously, it does not build up in the body. I'll write more details in a post to Johnj subsequently in this thread. Thanks again Lar.I see no reason for the benefit to diminish, unless there happens to be some sort of change in receptor regulation. I'm stretching, to even suggest that.
> How池e your CFS symptoms doing lately? Is Enada NADH still providing some amount of beneficial effect? If so, roughly how many milligrams do you take per week? Still taking the sublingual formulation?
>
> -- RonI'm using the Enada purely on a gut-level sense of need, intuitive. That seems to work for me. Initially, I think I got my NADH saturation up, and now it just needs occasional tweaking. There's an alternative explanation than NADH deficiency, per se. It is possible that there is another substance that accumulates unless there is more than enough NADH to go around. The "other stuff" excess might lead to symptoms.
I'd say I'm using 5 mg/week, on a running average basis. Despite a gruelling series of trips over the last four weeks, I'm not feeling even the slightest glimmer of imminent decline. More typically, by the last week of my work session, I'm noticeably sliding.
My pdoc had nothing to offer me in the way of treatment for the CFS (possible drug strategies were not covered by my limited disability drug benefits), and no possible referrals to specialists were available (they're already swamped with patients). He was most interested in my anecdotal experience, and recorded all the details. I suspect he's going to look into it, and possibly use the idea in his practice. My GP (general practitioner) doctor has already made use of it.
Lar
Posted by Ron Hill on May 23, 2003, at 12:16:25
In reply to Xanthinol Nicotinate-another form of Niacin-, posted by Paulie on May 23, 2003, at 10:38:06
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the information.
> This is a form of Niacin which I sometimes take.
> Not sold in U.S. though.Then where does one buy it? Do you know why it is not sold in the States? I thought that pretty much all supplements are sold here. Is it a prescription item in those countries where it is available?
It's probably best not to provide links in your response in keeping with Dr. Bob's policy prohibiting the posting of web-site URL痴 that sell products that are "illegal" to buy in the U.S. (Just trying to avoid getting yelled at.)
-- Ron
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2003, at 13:06:42
In reply to Re: Xanthinol Nicotinate-another form of Niacin- ｻ Paulie, posted by Ron Hill on May 23, 2003, at 12:16:25
> Hi Paul,
>
> Thanks for the information.
>
> > This is a form of Niacin which I sometimes take.
> > Not sold in U.S. though.
>
> Then where does one buy it? Do you know why it is not sold in the States? I thought that pretty much all supplements are sold here. Is it a prescription item in those countries where it is available?
>
> It's probably best not to provide links in your response in keeping with Dr. Bob's policy prohibiting the posting of web-site URL痴 that sell products that are "illegal" to buy in the U.S. (Just trying to avoid getting yelled at.)
>
> -- RonXanthine is really a small class of related compounds, including caffeine, theophylline, and theobromine.
According to my references, xanthinol nicotinate is the ester of theophylline and nicotinic acid. Theophylline is used in asthma therapy, as it is a bronchodilator. It is also a mild stimulant, and a vasodilator.
The idea that it is somehow more potent than other forms of niacin seems absurd to me, as I can't see how it could escape de-esterification in the stomach, yielding free theophylline and nicotinic acid (niacin). The combination will probably give you a buzz, but you could probably achieve the same thing by eating dark chocolate along with niacin.
Lar
Posted by Paulie on May 23, 2003, at 14:45:46
In reply to Re: Xanthinol Nicotinate-another form of Niacin- ｻ Paulie, posted by Ron Hill on May 23, 2003, at 12:16:25
Hello Ron,
I am almost positive this is an RX in other countries. I have not seen it available in US. I read about it many years ago in a book on brain enhancement. It was recommended for depression on an overseas anti-aging website. This was there suggetion:SYNERGISTIC PROGRAMS - DEPRESSION
Deprenyl: 1mg to 3mg daily.
5HTP 50mg 1 to 3 times daily with meals and 100mg at bedtime (or L-Tryptophan 500mg 1 to 3 times daily and 1000mg at bedtime, note this is OR not both together).
Gerovital-H3: 100mg to 200mg daily in the morning on an empty stomach.
NADH Sublingual: 4mg to 8mg 1 or 2 times daily .
Xanthinol Nicotinate: 150mg to 300mg 3 times daily (take with food).
Nutritional Support: DL-Phenylalanine 100mg to 500mg 1 to 3 times daily (reduce dosage is over-stimulated): Vitamin B1 50mg to 100mg daily: Vitamin B3 100mg to 500mg daily: Vitamin B6 50mg to 100mg daily: Folic Acid 800mcg to 5000mcg daily: Methylcobalamin (coenzyme B12) 1000mcg to 5000mcg daily (as a sublingual): Magnesium 100mg to 200mg 2 or 3 times daily.Paul
Posted by Paulie on May 23, 2003, at 15:12:32
In reply to Re: Xanthinol Nicotinate-another form of Niacin-, posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2003, at 13:06:42
Hello Larry,
Interesting point that you make. I have found this info on it but researching for more.
From
http://www.vitaminconnection.com/101_txt/0330_05_Niacin.htmlABSTRACT: The treatment effect of nicotinic acid and xanthinol nicotinate on human memory was compared with placebo in 96 healthy subjects. Forty-three subjects were young (35-45 years), 30 subjects middle aged (55-65_years) and 23 subjects were old aged (75-85 years). Pre-and post-treatment scores were measured on a battery of memory tasks, covering sensory register, short-term memory and long-term memory. The treatment regime was 1 dragee t.i.d. for 8 weeks. The administration of xanthinol nicotinate (500 mg, containing 141.7 mg nicotinic acid), nicotinic acid (141.7 mg) and placebo (lactose) was double-blind. Pre- and post-treatment scores were analyzed by means of a multivariate covariance technique, the pre-treatment score serving as covariate. Nicotinic acid treatment resulted in improvement of sensory register and short-term memory, while xanthinol nicotinate improved sensory register, short-term memory and long-term memory. In comparison with placebo, both active compounds yielded improvements of 10-40%. depending on type of task. Treatment effects of nicotinic acid were predominantly found in the young and middle-aged, whereas treatment effects of xanthinol nicotinate were predominantly found in the old. These results are interpreted by the supposed activity of nicotinic acid at the cell membrane. improving neuronal transmission. and of xanthinol nicotinate inside the cell, enhancing cell metabolism and oxygen supply in the brain.
Paul
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