![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 65 to 89 of 205. Go back in thread:
Posted by JLx on April 1, 2003, at 9:35:43
In reply to I'm not skeptical at all about this post/poster » JLx, posted by Ron Hill on March 31, 2003, at 20:02:32
> Hi JLx,
>
> > I've lost all but one friend, ...
>
> You're back up to two. Please add me to your list of friends. I admire your tenacity. I hope your early results continue long term!
>
> -- RonThank you very much! :)
One reason I feel quite confident that these results will continue is that the least depressed I've felt in my adult life was when I was on a real "health kick" for a few years, eating lots of whole grains, legumes and nuts -- food full of magnesium. Then I was undone by major stress and started eating poorly again and that ol' depression snowball just kept rolling.
So NOW I have all this new knowledge of magnesium for stress as the key ingredient to preventing depression, as well as other variables that I know I can try such as amino acids for anxiety.
I am quite optimistic -- which is a clear indication of freedom from depression in itself. :)
Posted by beardedlady on April 1, 2003, at 9:45:55
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium! » johnj, posted by JLx on April 1, 2003, at 9:03:46
JLx:
You take a lot of stuff! I don't know how you can tell what is working and what isn't. And this is in addition to meds that don't work? And you can't eliminate them because?
> Besides depression, I figured I was also hypoglycemic and had a Candida problem too
Please don't take this the wrong way, but how did you "figure" this? Did you have a test for it?
I need to be honest with you about my feelings about candidiasis. All kinds of new age practitioners are bandying about this idea that candidiasis is responsible for a laundry list of symptoms, and if you have any three (which include vision changes, headaches, nasal stuffiness, insomnia, hypersomnia, weight loss, weight gain, forgetfulness, poor concentration, anxiety, depression), you've obviously got this illness. All those things can have many other causes, and I don't know anyone in the universe who doesn't have at least three of the symptoms found on those web sites. (Those same symptoms are also listed as symptoms of aspartame use and fibromyalgia.)
My best friend believes she has it and has been buying all these expensive "doctor-recommended" supplements and doing these ridiculous diets that are impossible to stick with--all to get rid of an illness that even alternative doctors don't believe in. She has never had thrush in her life, and she hasn't had a vaginal yeast infection since she was 16. And she's healthy and hasn't had an antibiotic in about 15 years.
If you have candidiasis, it usually manifests itself as thrush and/or a yeast infection. A cotton-y, fungus-y tongue cultured for candida will tell, as will a vaginal or penile discharge. That's how you can tell you have an internal problem.
If you do not have these things, consider yourself yeast free. Our bodies manufacture good flora all the time--UNLESS we are taking massive antibiotics or have an illness such as cancer or AIDS, whose medications can kill good flora.
I'm adamant about this because my grandmother died of candidiasis! It is a deadly disease. If yeast overtakes your body (and it will if your body is unable to manufacture good flora), you die. But taking chromium or garlic or even probiotics doesn't stop that amount of yeast. Healthy, non-hospitalized people with non-life threatening diseases just don't have rampant yeast throughout their bodies.
Okay. End rant.
I am really glad you are feeling good, but I am wondering now whether it's really worth going to the store to buy magnesium and probiotics. You say the magnesium saved your life, and I believe you, but I just don't know how you know it was the magnesium and not the fifteen or twenty other things you take.
I had hopes of maybe curing my insomnia once and for all, getting better sleep, reducing the number of migraines and headaches I get, and maybe being less irritable. But after seeing what you take each day, I am overwhelmed!
In fact, I'm thinking of sticking with my crappy bottle of magnesium oxide and taking 250mg. at bedtime.
beardy
Posted by JLx on April 1, 2003, at 9:54:52
In reply to A little regression last night....., posted by johnj on April 1, 2003, at 9:35:38
> Well, I decided since I haven't been able to work out and I did a lot outside on Saturday and Sunday I lifted weights on Monday about 6:00 pm. Had a hard time falling asleep and woke up early. I think maybe I overdid it. It just feels as if my body wants to make up for lost time working out. I did not get dizzy like I usually do and felt good after the workout. I will take a break and try to slow myself down. I wonder if Mg is depleted when a person works out, such as weightlifing?? Anybody have an idea?
Yes, I think it is. I was noticing in my local super-all-purpose-market that they now have TwinLab magnesium located right next to all the Rip Fuel-type supplements the body builders take.
I think there's also something in the book "The Cortisol Connection" about cortisol released during vigorous exercise, which would counteract the stress-reducing action of magnesium. I will look it up in there as I still have it from the library. I found much food for thought in that book once I understood the magnesium/stress/depression connection. The doctor who wrote that book, btw, is a sports medicine guy. Here is his book's website:
http://www.cortisolconnection.com/index.php
He answers questions there, and there are also questions asked previously to reference. (No search engine though.)
It makes sense to me too that sweating alone would deplete magnesium.
In the five weeks I've been feeling cured from depression using magnesium, I have been monitoring my mood probably far more than I ever did before, as I've been scared it could all be snatched away from me as quickly and easily as it had been given. Each time I felt a little "downward" turn, once I was done panicking ;) I read Eby's site again, or figured out from some other information what I'd been doing wrong/differently. When I corrected that, then I felt better again.
Posted by johnj on April 1, 2003, at 11:46:41
In reply to Re: A little regression last night....., posted by JLx on April 1, 2003, at 9:54:52
Thanks for the great info.
I was wondering why then do they say excercise is good for depression and anixety?I do think my meds play some factor in the equation. I felt really good last night and was wondering if all this could be true. I was disappointed with the way I slept. Since I was outside most of the day on Saturday and Sunday and didn't feel bad as I had in the past I thought the Mg would take care of it, but weightlifting is harder on the body since I am tearing down tissue OR the time of day. Since I finished my outdoor activity at about 2 pm I could have had enough time to "recover" before bed. Hmmmm, wish I knew the link. I will not do anything today and see how it goes tonight. There could be an adjustment period to working out too. Anything you find would be appreciated. Thank you
I would like Larry Hoovers take on this too.
Johnj
Posted by JLx on April 1, 2003, at 11:55:39
In reply to warning--a little rant, but not against you. » JLx, posted by beardedlady on April 1, 2003, at 9:45:55
> You take a lot of stuff! I don't know how you can tell what is working and what isn't. And this is in addition to meds that don't work? And you can't eliminate them because?LOL, I knew that list would freak somebody out. :) I was pretty freaked out myself the first time I came to this site and saw the pain, desperation and multitude of drugs some people had already tried or were on with little effect -- or worse.
In fact, it was the book "The Noonday Demon" by Andrew Solomon that started me on my quest to find some real answers, as I was completely appalled by that book, beautifully written and ultimately hopeful that it was. Was this my future too? Anti-psychotics and amphetamines for depression?? 4 different meds at a time, some of which to counteract the side effects of the others? I thought, do I really have to assume that my life as I once knew it is completely over, that I will be on med after med for the rest of my life with MAYBE some relief, but that there is no real hope of ever being depression free? "What You Can Change... and What you Can't" by Martin E. P. Seligman, is another one that made me mad. "Moderate relief" he predicted for depression with effective treatment. But what was effective treatment? The meds -- one after another or in what combination and for how long before they poop-out? The cognitive therapy that people are not changed by in the 1 year follow-up studies?
Well, guess, again Dr. Seligman! No, I don't take meds anymore. I quit Zoloft and Provigil after one day taking magnesium. And back then the magnesium was the ONLY thing I was doing differently. Since this one thing ACTUALLY WORKED, I am following Eby's other advice AND I am following the advice of these other books too, just to be sure. I probably am overdoing it, but right now I would rather err on that side. I am desperate now -- again -- only this time it is to keep feeling WELL and also have the energy and other emotional wherewithall to pick up the wreckage of my life.
> Please don't take this the wrong way, but how did you "figure" this? Did you have a test for it?
No, no tests for Candida or hypoglycemia. I would love to go to a knowledgeable alternative medicine practitioner and have the appropriate tests -- this self-doctoring has been a lot of work and bother -- but I absolutely can't afford it even if I could find one. I have been going by the advice on George Eby's site, as well as the criteria/checklists from the book "Depression Free Naturally" and numerous other webpages I've run across lately. I'm also not a complete novice to the whole "natural health" industry.
> I need to be honest with you about my feelings about candidiasis....I never paid any attention to that yeast stuff before either, primarily because I could not imagine myself limiting my diet like that. Once I started taking magnesium, however, the dietary changes were easy and obviously needed once I reassessed the info and could actually tell how my body felt. I used to marvel at my sister when she would say that she would feel this or that way based on certain foods or supplements. I felt the same way all the time no matter what I did -- lousy!
I agree with you about Candidiasis as a deadly disease, thrusth, vaginal infections, etc. But I also think there can be a lower level problem with yeast. And it's not only "new agey" practitioners who think so. Check out this site:
http://www.wholehealthmd.com/hc/resourceareas_view/1,1438,560,00.html
Natural/alternative/complementary practitioners were talking about antioxidants and free radicals well over a decade before that info became medical-mainstream. Homocysteine and heart attacks? Don't bother trying to prevent that, you'll only have "expensive urine", the "experts" said. 3 decades later they're singing a different tune. H. pylori bacteria the cause of ulcers? Ridiculous! No wait...2 decades later... it's true! Magnesium for major depression? Don't bother, said my psychiatrist. ;)
> I am really glad you are feeling good, but I am wondering now whether it's really worth going to the store to buy magnesium and probiotics. You say the magnesium saved your life, and I believe you, but I just don't know how you know it was the magnesium and not the fifteen or twenty other things you take.
Because I didn't take them then, or I had been taking them all along (like the extra B and C vitamins) and was still suicidally depressed.
> I had hopes of maybe curing my insomnia once and for all, getting better sleep, reducing the number of migraines and headaches I get, and maybe being less irritable. But after seeing what you take each day, I am overwhelmed!The first time I walked into a health food store, I felt like I was in a foreign country and couldn't speak the language. It takes time and effort to learn, that's all. It's so easy now with the Web at least. There ARE doctors and other health practitioners such as nutritionists too, if one can afford it.
Whatever you may decide to try or not, good luck to you. :)
Posted by beardedlady on April 1, 2003, at 12:15:46
In reply to Re: warning--a little rant, but not against you., posted by JLx on April 1, 2003, at 11:55:39
> I agree with you about Candidiasis as a deadly disease, thrusth, vaginal infections, etc. But I also think there can be a lower level problem with yeast. And it's not only "new agey" practitioners who think so. Check out this site:
>
> http://www.wholehealthmd.com/hc/resourceareas_view/1,1438,560,00.html
I still don't buy this, but I've been told that's why we're over there in Eye Rack--to keep this a free country (don't buy that either!).Even if you have overgrowth after a year's worth of antibiotics, you will be able to get rid of that overgrowth in a short time. Besides, the key is still that it HAS to manifest itself as vaginal or oral thrush--that's the one symptom that has to be there in order for you to have yeast.
So look at all this stuff: Bloating, gas, diarrhea, constipation, new sensitivities to commonly eaten foods, fatigue, headache, depression, irritability, disorientation, dizziness, inability to concentrate, sugar cravings, sensitivities to chemicals and perfumes, alcohol intolerance, increased susceptibility to the side effects of medications, muscle and joint aches, sinusitis and recurrent colds, recurrent skin rashes, premenstrual syndrome (PMS), decreased libido, prostate and bladder infections.
These can have a million other causes. Life! causes these things! I mean c'mon! PMS because of extra yeast? Sensitivity to perfume? This describes half the population!
Oh, well.
Thank you for the reassurance about magnesium. I'm going to mosey on down to the Safeway to see if they have any citrate, and then I'll start with a bedtime dose.
I'm glad you're having success, and thank you for your wishes.
beardy : )>
Posted by kara lynne on April 1, 2003, at 14:12:46
In reply to Re: Magnesiun » johnj, posted by Ron Hill on March 31, 2003, at 22:13:11
Hi Ron,
I'd like to thank you for your honest feedback. It's important for me to have a balanced viewpoint of something, especially because I rarely get these miraculous responses and expecting one leads to an inevitable letdown. You don't deny its benefits, but don't promise profound results either. Thanks for reporting.
Posted by McPac on April 1, 2003, at 15:51:21
In reply to Re: warning--a little rant, but not against you., posted by JLx on April 1, 2003, at 11:55:39
You said that you quit your Zoloft cold turkey, correct? Didn't you go through the nasty withdrawal process? (How long had you been on the Zoloft prior to quitting it?) Thanks!
Posted by noa on April 1, 2003, at 19:13:24
In reply to warning--a little rant, but not against you. » JLx, posted by beardedlady on April 1, 2003, at 9:45:55
I heard Dr. Crook speak once on the yeast thing and had a hard time buying his theories because the science seemed very iffy to me. He talked about the "leaky gut" problem where supposedly low level chronic yeast infections cause toxins to leak from our "gut" into our bloodstream, causing ADHD. I subsequently asked around a lot to different doctors, friends and relatives with more science background than I have, etc. and they all agree with the position you are expressing, Beardy--that yeast is not something that we can have for very long as a stable, low level problem--that it either gets taken care of by other flora or it grows out of control. Ie, if you had a yeast problem, there would be no mistaking it! And, that the claims of yeast causing all kinds of non-specific ailments and conditions are not backed up by any serious scientific studies.
OK, that being said, here is a possible OTOH:
I have a relative who has been in total remission for more than a decade from a very deadly form of cancer. Ten years ago he underwent a high risk, experimental procedure--twice for good measure--and came through it. He almost died from the treatment itself. But he came through it. Almost immediately, he also adopted a very strict macrobiotic healing diet (which is even stricter than the "regular" macrobiotic diet). Well, he absolutely credits the diet with his successfully being in remission all these years, under the guidance of a macrobiotic guru, for all this time since the cancer was treated. He works very hard at this diet, and drives a lot of people kind of crazy in the process, but he believes that is what has kept him healthy. And you know what? We may never know if that is true or not. His mother had adopted this same diet but died anyway of a different form of cancer--so his siblings get angry at his adamance about the strict diet. (Btw--his mother died while he was recovering from his experimental treatment). So who knows. But I do understand how he would be so committed to not stopping the macrobiotic thing because he has been healthy and why risk it?
Interestingly, this man is a scientist of the kind who tends to approach every decision, large and small, in life with a scientfic approach---considering all variables ad nauseum and wanting to always do the most "Logical" thing. To the point that it also drives everyone quite crazy (me especially!!) because sometimes the most logical thing is not the best option because you gotta get on and get moving sometimes. One can get extremely paralyzed by considering everything so carefully as he often does. For example, if extended family are all together and we are considering group activites, it can take FOREVER and half a day can be ruined because he wants to go over all the possibilities (I know--kind of OCD). Another example was a situation which led me to tell him (quite emphatically, I might add), "Yes, so and so, I KNOW that it is more logical in terms of redundancy of effort if we wait and transfer the luggage directly from the rental car to the car of the person coming to pick us up here at the rental agency, instead of unloading it from this car, bringing it into the rental office to get out of the rain, and then bringing it out again when we get picked up, but let's give the rental car employee a break! He has to close the store on time, which is going to be right after we get picked up and he really wants to get the check in going so he can inspect the car etc. and be ready to close the shop on time".
You get the picture.
But the macro diet is the one thing that is different. It is kind of like kicking the soda machine and getting the soda to come out and trying it again, and having it work again, and then being convinced that the kick is what gets the soda machine to work. Maybe yes, maybe no. And I understand his not being willing to stop the macro diet to see what happens, given how ill he had been. But it could be totally spurious for all we know.
So that was my OTOH, FWIW. But I do tend to agree with you both about the yeast claims and about how hard it can be to sort out what is causing what if you're taking a lot of different things.
Posted by JLx on April 1, 2003, at 20:12:38
In reply to Re: A little regression last night..... » JLx, posted by johnj on April 1, 2003, at 11:46:41
> I was wondering why then do they say excercise is good for depression and anixety?
I was skimming through "The Cortisol Connection" and about that Dr. Talbott says that exercise increases dopamine and serotonin.
Re exercise and magnesium, he said that requirements may be elevated beyond the 400 mg/day RDA by stressors such as exercise. (Pg. 122)
Posted by Ron Hill on April 1, 2003, at 22:59:57
In reply to Thank you Ron Hill, posted by kara lynne on April 1, 2003, at 14:12:46
Kara Lynne,
Thank you for the kind words. I hope you benefit from magnesium if you decide to take the supplement.
-- Ron
-----------------------------------------> Hi Ron,
> I'd like to thank you for your honest feedback. It's important for me to have a balanced viewpoint of something, especially because I rarely get these miraculous responses and expecting one leads to an inevitable letdown. You don't deny its benefits, but don't promise profound results either. Thanks for reporting.
Posted by JLx on April 2, 2003, at 8:03:01
In reply to Thank you Ron Hill, posted by kara lynne on April 1, 2003, at 14:12:46
[Kara Lynne to Ron Hill]
> I'd like to thank you for your honest feedback. It's important for me to have a balanced viewpoint of something, especially because I rarely get these miraculous responses and expecting one leads to an inevitable letdown. You don't deny its benefits, but don't promise profound results either. Thanks for reporting.
I agree that expectations can easily lead to letdowns and personally I don't trust anyone's promises about anything.
When I read George Eby's site, I was cautiously somewhat hopeful enough to rouse myself out of my depressive paralysis to take the steps necessary to give it a try BECAUSE when I evaluated my life in terms of the information he presented I could see how it might pertain.
I checked my multi-vit/min and saw that I was taking a not-very-absorbable form of magnesium. I looked at the list of magnesium rich foods and saw I wasn't eating them at all OR I was craving them -- such as peanuts. Then I looked at the list of calcium rich foods as well as the list of foods where the amount of calcium exceeds the amount of magnesium and roughly evaluated just how much calcium I was getting in my diet -- a LOT. I had also had a calcium kidney stone in the past.
Considering more of his information and the rest of my diet, I was drinking multiple cans of aspartame sweetened, caffeinated cola's each day (to stay awake on Zoloft). I was eating plenty of processed foods with glutamates.
Looking at my past, I could identify the times in my life when I was least depressed and they coincided with "healthy eating" times characterized by eating magnesium rich foods such as wheat germ and much less calcium than in my recent diet. I noted too that my past good times and "better times" were very specifically undone by stress, despite my best efforts to remain positive.
So, I tried it and yes, it's been miraculous. Obviously, if one is already getting magnesium in adequate amounts in one's diet, then taking more will not be miraculous.
But for me magnesium is not the end of the story. When I read the books I've mentioned earlier, "Depression Free Naturally", "The Cortisol Connection", "Your Miracle Brain"as well as numerous websites, I realized that the information is out there for me to learn and utilize so that I need not fear becoming depressed again.
The most meaningful psychological book I've read on depression was Richard O'Connor's "Undoing Depression". He has a another book called "Active Treatment of Depression" that's written for professionals also, that people on Amazon say is even better. I ordered it from the library, but by the time I received it I was no longer depressed so I didn't read it. :)
In Undoing Depression, O'Connor, himself a depressive (and psychotherapist) said something I really didn't like hearing but felt I had to face -- that as depressives we get good at doing depression. I began to try to will myself to follow all of his advice. When I was no longer depressed several days after magnesium supplementation, I was elated, incredulous and then I also felt like a fool. This thing that had dominated my life so profoundly as to ruin it, this thing that had so significantly defined me for so many years, this thing that had estranged me from people and meaning in life, this thing that seemed so hideously meaningful in itself, this thing that using all my previous best efforts to "undo" -- had just gone "poof".
When I read George Eby's site the first time, my teeth were grinding and my hackles rose every time he said "Depression is not a disease". "Outrageous", I thought, "He obviously doesn't understand." Now I am the one who understands. And I would say to Richard O'Connor that the BEST and certainly easiest way to undo depression is to change/undo the brain chemistry that CAUSED it.
Of course, magnesium is not the answer for everyone, but perhaps another natural remedy IS. Neurotransmitters in the brain come from required nutrients -- they are created by what we eat/don't eat, drink/don't drink, or in some other way do or take into our bodies (sunlight, excercise, supplements, etc.).
In years past, I had tried St. John's Wort, SAM-e, folic acid, amino acids like tyrosine (which gave me the same negative reaction as Wellbutrin) and anything else I heard about. But I didn't have the benefit when trying those things of what more recent research and certain practitioner's experience have now contributed to the whole picture.
I am convinced today that whether I am depressed or not is entirely my responsibility -- not in terms of what I need to "work on" with "issues" or self-defeating modes of thought and behavior or anything at all psychological. (I think the many tools one learns from good therapy are invaluable, btw, but in my case it's "been there, done that" -- for years.) I believe now that my responsibility to myself regarding depression is entirely dependent on the choices I make about my physical health. That simple.
And with that, I am leaving this board. Richard O'Connor also said that "The opposite of depression is not happiness, it's vitality." I wish all of you freedom from whatever pains you and holds you back from vitality and the life of your dreams. :) JL, jlwest@operamail.com
Posted by Ron Hill on April 2, 2003, at 12:19:24
In reply to Re: Magnesium - final thoughts and best wishes, posted by JLx on April 2, 2003, at 8:03:01
Hi JLx,
> And with that, I am leaving this board.
Why not stick around and help others now and then as time allows?
-- Ron
Posted by kara lynne on April 2, 2003, at 13:33:59
In reply to Re: Magnesium - final thoughts and best wishes, posted by JLx on April 2, 2003, at 8:03:01
Hi Jlx,
I appreciate your information regarding magnesium; I don't mean to diminish the miracle it has been for you--I believe it has been. I just found Ron's post helpful to the way I take in information. I'm happy you have found a way out of depression; I hope I do too.
Posted by beardedlady on April 2, 2003, at 16:16:22
In reply to Re: Magnesium - final thoughts and best wishes, posted by JLx on April 2, 2003, at 8:03:01
Last night at bedtime, I took a 250 mg. tab of what I bought a week or two ago before reading all the posts. I had the shallowest sleep I've ever had. It was weird and awful.
Here's what the stuff has in it: Magnesium (as magnesium oxide), Microcrystalline cellulose, croscarmellose sodium, hydroxypropyl methylcellulose, stearic acid, titanium dioxide, magnesium stearate, hydroxypropyl cellulose, ethylcellulose, povidone, polyethylene glycol, and carnuba wax.
What the hell are all those things? Poison?
beardy
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 2, 2003, at 16:24:32
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone » JLx, posted by beardedlady on April 2, 2003, at 16:16:22
> Last night at bedtime, I took a 250 mg. tab of what I bought a week or two ago before reading all the posts. I had the shallowest sleep I've ever had. It was weird and awful.
That sucks. I'm sorry to hear that.
> Here's what the stuff has in it: Magnesium (as magnesium oxide), Microcrystalline cellulose, croscarmellose sodium, hydroxypropyl methylcellulose, stearic acid, titanium dioxide, magnesium stearate, hydroxypropyl cellulose, ethylcellulose, povidone, polyethylene glycol, and carnuba wax.
>
> What the hell are all those things? Poison?Magnesium oxide is very poorly absorbed, compared to other magnesium compounds. It doesn't even qualify as a salt of magnesium. All the other things are binders, with the exception of the titanium dioxide, which is one of the whitest pigments known.
Lar
Posted by beardedlady on April 2, 2003, at 16:43:31
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone, posted by Larry Hoover on April 2, 2003, at 16:24:32
Yes, I knew about the pigment. It's why red takes a billion coats--it has no titanium to make it opaque.
I should go to the health food store and get citrate or glycinate, shouldn't I? And I shouldn't take this again, eh?
beardy
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 2, 2003, at 16:54:11
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone » Larry Hoover, posted by beardedlady on April 2, 2003, at 16:43:31
> Yes, I knew about the pigment. It's why red takes a billion coats--it has no titanium to make it opaque.
Is that a paint reference???? <spock eyebrow>
> I should go to the health food store and get citrate or glycinate, shouldn't I?
Milk of magnesia (magnesium hydroxide) will do, too. Epsom salts (mag sulphate), the citrate. There are lots of options.
> And I shouldn't take this again, eh?
Unfortunately, a single trial doesn't tell you anything, conclusively. You might have been going to have a bad night for other reasons. You might find that you do better with it in the morning, because of your unique make-up. You are special, ya know.
Posted by beardedlady on April 2, 2003, at 17:31:20
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone, posted by Larry Hoover on April 2, 2003, at 16:54:11
> Is that a paint reference???? <spock eyebrow>Uh, yes. <bones eyeroll>
> Milk of magnesia (magnesium hydroxide) will do, too. Epsom salts (mag sulphate), the citrate. There are lots of options.
I think I'll look for the pill form.
> > And I shouldn't take this again, eh?
>
> Unfortunately, a single trial doesn't tell you anything, conclusively. You might have been going to have a bad night for other reasons. You might find that you do better with it in the morning, because of your unique make-up. You are special, ya know.Well, I'm taking it for insomnia. I meant that I shouldn't take the concoction I bought again tonight. Or should I--just for one final night, since I already have it?
beardy : )>
Posted by Caleb462 on April 3, 2003, at 22:28:58
In reply to Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by JLx on March 29, 2003, at 5:49:41
You said magnesium hydroxide works too, yet on that guy's site (can't remember his name), he says magnesium hydroxide has poor bioavailability and has no known use other than as a laxative. So what's up?
Posted by johnj on April 3, 2003, at 22:36:55
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone, posted by Larry Hoover on April 2, 2003, at 16:54:11
Hi Larry,
Well I had a great 9 day run with Mg. I think I may have screwed things up just being so happy not to be down anymore. I have had problems working out in the past but I thought the Mg cured that. Last Friday I went to tai chi, then spent Saturday and Sunday outside working. I felt so good on Monday so I lifted weights on at 6 pm and had a bad night sleeping. I wonder what weightlifting does to the brain chemistry? Any idea on what type of doctor could help me with this? We have a university med center close by with an alternative medicine division too.
Took 600 mg on Tuesday and felt pretty good on Wednesday and went to Yoga, but Thursday was ok. I wonder if the Mg I took tipped the balance back somehow. Or maybe all that excercise had a cumulative effect? I will not work out at all for a few days and see what happens. Could it be that cortisol is released when I work out and I am not coming down? I have heard working out raises cortisol and then I have heard working out combats depression and anxiety. Man, is this confusing. I did realize I get my RDA of calcium pretty much in the morning with yogurt, bran, oatmeal and calcium orange juice. I am a little afraid of cutting my milk. Do you see any concerns? I was a big milk drinker, about 2 gallons a week. Again, I read calcium is calming, but Eby's article paints it in a different light. MORE confusion.How do I know how much elemental Mg I am getting? I am thinking of trying the Mg glycinate and malate but the latter is harder to find. Do I need to add boron?
I really had 9 days of bliss. Just living and not worrying about anything. It made me realize that this is biochemical related and can be fixed. Just finding a way of fixing it on a regular basis is the goal. I really want to lower my benzo dose as I feel it makes my thinking sluggish. Maybe I just tried to cram a lost 2 years in that week afraid it would end. One thing I do know is that is wasn't mere placebo. No problems with taking the Mg, almost as constipated as always. Don't know if I need more or less Mg?? What was the most happiness I had those 9 days? Being able to stop myself from snapping at my wife, I was able to say "that's no big deal".
Thanks for listenting Larry. Hope all is well. Let me know how any new supplements are doing with you.
Posted by beardedlady on April 4, 2003, at 5:37:22
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on April 3, 2003, at 22:36:55
I know this post wasn't for me, but I just wanted to respond and couldn't stop myself.
>Last Friday I went to tai chi, then spent Saturday and Sunday outside working. I felt so good on Monday so I lifted weights on at 6 pm and had a bad night sleeping. I wonder what weightlifting does to the brain chemistry?Why does that have to be attributed to anything? It's one night! We all have an unexplained bad night of sleep now and again. Everyone does!
>Any idea on what type of doctor could help me with this? We have a university med center close by with an alternative medicine division too.
> Took 600 mg on Tuesday and felt pretty good on Wednesday and went to Yoga, but Thursday was ok. I wonder if the Mg I took tipped the balance back somehow.Why? What do you mean tipped the balance back? Couldn't it just have been working all this time? And couldn't exercise be the real reason you're feeling better? Or couldn't they be working in concert?
>Or maybe all that excercise had a cumulative effect? I will not work out at all for a few days and see what happens.
Well of course it does!
> Could it be that cortisol is released when I work out and I am not coming down? I have heard working out raises cortisol and then I have heard working out combats depression and anxiety.
I believe cortisol is a stress hormone. You don't usually release it while exercising (I don't think you do anyway) unless you're stressed out about something.
>Man, is this confusing. I did realize I get my RDA of calcium pretty much in the morning with yogurt, bran, oatmeal and calcium orange juice. I am a little afraid of cutting my milk. Do you see any concerns? I was a big milk drinker, about 2 gallons a week. Again, I read calcium is calming, but Eby's article paints it in a different light. MORE confusion.
Every body is different. Don't expect Eby's exact vitamin cocktail to work for you. It sounds like you are getting exactly the results you want, so why don't you give it a little bit of time before you adjust anything?
beardy : )>
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2003, at 9:43:09
In reply to Larry, Re: Magnesium Hydroxide, posted by Caleb462 on April 3, 2003, at 22:28:58
> You said magnesium hydroxide works too, yet on that guy's site (can't remember his name), he says magnesium hydroxide has poor bioavailability and has no known use other than as a laxative. So what's up?
I'm thinking purely as a chemist when I say that; it has lower bioavailabity than other salts, but it's got to be better than magnesium oxide.
Mag hydroxide is marketed as an antacid. For that to work, the hydroxide has to be labile (easily moved). The reaction is:
2HCl + Mg(OH)2 --> 2H2O + Mg(Cl)2
The laxative part is due to the fact that both Mg(OH)2 and Mg++ ions are hygroscopic; they draw water to themselves. Now Mg(OH)2 does that very poorly, relative to Mg++ (Mag hydroxide is milk of magnesia, which is milky because it's not a solution. It's a suspension.), making me think that the laxative effect is due to Mg++, which is bioavailable. A lot of people already have milk of magnesia in the house. I suggested it so people don't run around buying expensive supplements if they've got another option available to them.
That's my rationale. I can't find anything in the literature that either supports or refutes my logic.Lar
Posted by johnj on April 4, 2003, at 9:43:17
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone » johnj, posted by beardedlady on April 4, 2003, at 5:37:22
>Last Friday I went to tai chi, then spent Saturday and Sunday outside working. I felt so good on Monday so I lifted weights on at 6 pm and had a bad night sleeping. I wonder what weightlifting does to the brain chemistry?
<Why does that have to be attributed to anything? It's one night! We all have an unexplained bad night of sleep now and again. Everyone does!>
Because this has been my pattern for almost 2 years, of which I have stated many times. I excercise, feel ok, but sleep like crap. This time was unique in that I had several days where I physically exerted myself, but slept fine, actually felt like it used to when I would work out and sleep better not worse. This coincided with starting magnesium.
>Any idea on what type of doctor could help me with this? We have a university med center close by with an alternative medicine division too.
> Took 600 mg on Tuesday and felt pretty good on Wednesday and went to Yoga, but Thursday was ok. I wonder if the Mg I took tipped the balance back somehow.<Why? What do you mean tipped the balance back? Couldn't it just have been working all this time? And couldn't exercise be the real reason you're feeling better? Or couldn't they be working in concert?>
See my first response, as in excercise tipping the balance back to before I started Mg. Meaning does the excercise deplete Mg much quicker? They couldn't have been working in concert because the physical exertion didn't start until after I felt better taking Mg.
>Or maybe all that excercise had a cumulative effect? I will not work out at all for a few days and see what happens.
<Well of course it does!>
No, it may not always, if a person's body is recovering. Usually the cumulative effect of excercise is good. My point was what is going on with me that seems to make excercise detrimental to me now?
> Could it be that cortisol is released when I work out and I am not coming down? I have heard working out raises cortisol and then I have heard working out combats depression and anxiety.
<I believe cortisol is a stress hormone. You don't usually release it while exercising (I don't think you do anyway) unless you're stressed out about something.>
Is not excercise a stress on the human body too? Like I said I have seen conflicting information regarding this. I am trying to figure out, from someone like Larry who knows this in more detail, if this is possible in the sense is my body just not combating the cortisol release and what acutally combats this?
>Man, is this confusing. I did realize I get my RDA of calcium pretty much in the morning with yogurt, bran, oatmeal and calcium orange juice. I am a little afraid of cutting my milk. Do you see any concerns? I was a big milk drinker, about 2 gallons a week. Again, I read calcium is calming, but Eby's article paints it in a different light. MORE confusion.
<Every body is different. Don't expect Eby's exact vitamin cocktail to work for you. It sounds like you are getting exactly the results you want, so why don't you give it a little bit of time before you adjust anything?>
I know we are all different and that is why I am asking certain questions. I know this is trial and error, I have been at it for 10 years. The thing I am most confused about is that Eby's website pretty much says Mg and high doses is not a problem and calcium actually caused depression. I have read, just like we all hear about warm milk, it is not all that bad and calcium even relaxes ones nerves. That is why I am more confused right now.
I really didn't appreciate the scolding tone and the use of "!" after every response. I didn't feel your response was supportive. Maybe I am ultrasensitive right now and I apologize if that wasn't your intention since this has been a very defeating week, but I am just trying to make sense of what has happened afterr my brief, but almost perfect 9 days. Something right was happening and then I excercised, maybe too much, and right back down. Maybe I just need a break from the board. Maybe searching for something that is impossible is just a waste of my time. I am just tired of trying. Maybe it is time to just accept depression is the natural state of my brain.
beardy : )>
Posted by noa on April 4, 2003, at 9:46:13
In reply to Re: Magnesium--HELP anyone » johnj, posted by beardedlady on April 4, 2003, at 5:37:22
>> I believe cortisol is a stress hormone. You don't usually release it while exercising (I don't think you do anyway) unless you're stressed out about something.
In fact, I believe exercise helps to reduce cortisol. Our stress response is designed for dealing with acute, immediate survival situations. Cortisol and adrenaline help make available immediate energy for running for your life. Of course, we have more chronic stressors, and our biological stress response system isn't well suited for that. That is why regular exercise is recommended to help manage our stress. See Robert Sapolsky,PhD., "Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers".
>
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