![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 59. Go back in thread:
Posted by hildi on February 8, 2003, at 20:25:27
In reply to Re: buspirone and ssri's-not for everyone! » hildi, posted by zeugma on February 7, 2003, at 12:33:05
> > This is interesting. So some of you are having positive results from the combo of buspar and SSRI's I was on buspar many years ago, and although it did help a bit, it didn't really take care of the anxiety I have, nor did it touch the depression.
> > Dr. insisted I go on prozac and finally I did, and I took the buspar/prozac combo for quite a while. After a while I got hypomanic and extremely sad. My sadness became constant and so did mania. Finally it turned into worse depression. I read many 'brain books' and med books, and came across information that said you shouldn't ever combine the two: prozac and Buspar. Well, by the time I came across this article I had been so depressed I was crying all the time and sexually obsessed- (not a good thing when it is an obsession) and I had already quite the buspar and was only taking prozac. After a while I felt good again.
> > I never did make a copy of that article I read, but I do have another source of information from another book on meds that also states this: the combination of SSRI's and buspar can produce negative effects.
> > This is definately what happened to me.
> > The negative effects far outwieghed the positive.
> > Hildi
>
>
> The info I've come across states that Buspar and Prozac diminish each other's effects. Maybe that's why many find Buspar a paltry med? It also lowers serotonin levels, so that might explain your sadness (actually that is the diminishment effect). But it might interact more favorably with a more noradrenergic med (like the TCA I'm on).Strange as it it sounds, my depression doesn't take the form of excessive sadness- more of an 'out-of-it,' disjointed feeling (something like mild dissociation, which was extreme during adolescence) and the Buspar seems to partially counter that. My therapist thinks maybe I should go on a stimulant sometime- Provigil maybe? or if I can gain enough weight on my current meds, I might consider trying Ritalin again. Until then, I am dependent on caffeine for the alertness factor- my work suffers terribly when I don't have my cup of coffee.
>
>
Odd. The information I came across stated something along the lines that buspar increased prozacs effects, possibly causing adverse reactions such as too much serotinin- I do agree that the combo with a TCA may be different.
Also interesting is that my depression was never one of sadness and deep crying tangents until I went on the buspar, which increased the crying/sadness, but stopped the 'anxiety shakes'. It seemed to open a floodgate or something- or maybe it's too many years on ad's, but I get the sadness and meloncoly (sp?)-and sometimes tearful episodes now when I try to go off the AD's, but still get a different kind of depression while ON the meds,too.
I also have that 'out of it' dissassociative sort of feeling at times, too.
Sometimes I don't know if my SSRI is making my depression worse- but when I go off I fall apart-and I've tried just about every AD there is, except MOAI's. And I can't tolerate noradrenergic ad's-I get too jittery.
Hildi
Posted by zeugma on February 9, 2003, at 11:29:21
In reply to Re: buspirone and ssri's-not for everyone! » zeugma, posted by hildi on February 8, 2003, at 20:25:27
> > > This is interesting. So some of you are having positive results from the combo of buspar and SSRI's I was on buspar many years ago, and although it did help a bit, it didn't really take care of the anxiety I have, nor did it touch the depression.
> > > Dr. insisted I go on prozac and finally I did, and I took the buspar/prozac combo for quite a while. After a while I got hypomanic and extremely sad. My sadness became constant and so did mania. Finally it turned into worse depression. I read many 'brain books' and med books, and came across information that said you shouldn't ever combine the two: prozac and Buspar. Well, by the time I came across this article I had been so depressed I was crying all the time and sexually obsessed- (not a good thing when it is an obsession) and I had already quite the buspar and was only taking prozac. After a while I felt good again.
> > > I never did make a copy of that article I read, but I do have another source of information from another book on meds that also states this: the combination of SSRI's and buspar can produce negative effects.
> > > This is definately what happened to me.
> > > The negative effects far outwieghed the positive.
> > > Hildi
> >
> >
> > The info I've come across states that Buspar and Prozac diminish each other's effects. Maybe that's why many find Buspar a paltry med? It also lowers serotonin levels, so that might explain your sadness (actually that is the diminishment effect). But it might interact more favorably with a more noradrenergic med (like the TCA I'm on).Strange as it it sounds, my depression doesn't take the form of excessive sadness- more of an 'out-of-it,' disjointed feeling (something like mild dissociation, which was extreme during adolescence) and the Buspar seems to partially counter that. My therapist thinks maybe I should go on a stimulant sometime- Provigil maybe? or if I can gain enough weight on my current meds, I might consider trying Ritalin again. Until then, I am dependent on caffeine for the alertness factor- my work suffers terribly when I don't have my cup of coffee.
> >
> >
> Odd. The information I came across stated something along the lines that buspar increased prozacs effects, possibly causing adverse reactions such as too much serotinin- I do agree that the combo with a TCA may be different.
> Also interesting is that my depression was never one of sadness and deep crying tangents until I went on the buspar, which increased the crying/sadness, but stopped the 'anxiety shakes'. It seemed to open a floodgate or something- or maybe it's too many years on ad's, but I get the sadness and meloncoly (sp?)-and sometimes tearful episodes now when I try to go off the AD's, but still get a different kind of depression while ON the meds,too.
> I also have that 'out of it' dissassociative sort of feeling at times, too.
> Sometimes I don't know if my SSRI is making my depression worse- but when I go off I fall apart-and I've tried just about every AD there is, except MOAI's. And I can't tolerate noradrenergic ad's-I get too jittery.
> Hildi
>
Noradrenergic meds do make me kind of jittery too. Considering the side effects I've had to so many other drugs, I felt like I'd gladly tolerate the edginess I was feeling on even a low dosage of nortriptyline. Some of that too was healthy- the fog was beginning to disperse and I was noticing things more, and getting irritated by things I never would have noticed before.Is it possible that the Buspar was actually counteracting the Prozac- i.e. causing SSRI withdrawal? Someone at this board said the Buspar induced the same feelings as SSRI withdrawal. I have never been on an SSRI long enough to feel the emotional blunting so many have described, but I have heard many people say they can't cry on an SSRI- that it closed the floodgates of sadness for better or worse. My ex girlfriend was going through Celexa withdrawal recently, and she told me she felt overwhelmed with sadness and had long crying spells. Isn't this consistent with too little serotonin, not too much?
FWIW I've never had this effect on a TCA- even years ago when I was on 75 mg nortriptyline, it was if anything easier to cry than it had been before I had started taking it.
Posted by missinglynxx on February 9, 2003, at 17:43:04
In reply to Re: buspirone and ssri's-not for everyone! » hildi, posted by zeugma on February 9, 2003, at 11:29:21
ability to feel normal emotions on the Nortriptyline. I dont want any numbness, I just want cheerfulness and enthusiasm when its appropriate
Someone said Tricyclics dont change your "core" personality,, (someone on here) so Im hopeful NOrtriptyline is a keeper wish me luck
And great luck to you on whatever it is you have been prescribed...(what exactly is your current situation)?
Posted by zeugma on February 9, 2003, at 18:26:03
In reply to Thats fascinating Zeugma... .about the, posted by missinglynxx on February 9, 2003, at 17:43:04
> ability to feel normal emotions on the Nortriptyline. I dont want any numbness, I just want cheerfulness and enthusiasm when its appropriate
>
> Someone said Tricyclics dont change your "core" personality,, (someone on here) so Im hopeful NOrtriptyline is a keeper wish me luck
>
> And great luck to you on whatever it is you have been prescribed...(what exactly is your current situation)?
>Good luck missinglynxx! And thanks for wishing me luck... I am taking 40 mg nortriptyline and 30 mg buspirone per day. That's been my routine for the last 3 weeks when I increased the buspirone to 3x a day (10 mg tabs). I found the nortriptyline by itself to be helpful for depressive and ADD symptoms (unable to sleep or eat properly, couldn't concentrate, was in a fog all the time and had bad SP which made interactions with others stressful and unproductive) but the dosage had to be kept low because of hypotensive s/e. Quite frankly I felt like it was like the melting of a glacier- an almost imperceptible process that would suddenly produce significant improvement in some area of life. Unfortunately though, it's true in life that the more you are able to do, the more is expected of you, and I was also impatient and wanting some improvement in *everything* and *now*. Which wasn't going to happen. My pdoc was convinced the nortrip was helpful so he wasn't really receptive to my belief that I needed something else to make things speed up a little. Finally he let me try to the Buspar at the lowest possible dose to start with. The combo of nortrip and buspirone is definitely the closest I've felt to *normal* probably ever.
About the way TCA's seem to leave core personality unchanged... yes that is my impression too. I think of the SSRI's as being crisis meds- if you are overwhelmed with sadness because something has happened, numbness may be the best condition in those circumstances. I think this may be because the TCA's are a lot less selective; they cause a more subtle, because more dispersed, effect in the nervous system. That is just a speculation.
Posted by missinglynxx on February 9, 2003, at 21:51:52
In reply to Re: Thats fascinating Zeugma... .about the » missinglynxx, posted by zeugma on February 9, 2003, at 18:26:03
Thanks for the support,, Zeugma.. Buspar EH? I guess me and you go for the less popular combinations. haha
I do feel so bizarre on one dose of an SSRI,,,, Thank GOD We have a choice to go to the Old standbys. Its strange that Nortriptyline still makes me act like myself.. (which isnt this amazing thing) but on SSRIS I get very very paranoid and quiet, and just dont enjoy strangers company like I normally Thrive on,,
It makes me want to HIDE out in the Caves of Kabul...
I guess you are getting a serotonin adjunct with the Buspar. Hopefully you can get up to 75 mgs of Nortriptyline,, I think the hypotension will END FOR You soon . Exericise does help if you can work around the hypotension. I did alot earlier today,, It does help the depression. Great luck later on this.
Posted by hildi on February 10, 2003, at 0:17:23
In reply to Re: buspirone and ssri's-not for everyone! » hildi, posted by zeugma on February 9, 2003, at 11:29:21
> > > > This is interesting. So some of you are having positive results from the combo of buspar and SSRI's I was on buspar many years ago, and although it did help a bit, it didn't really take care of the anxiety I have, nor did it touch the depression.
> > > > Dr. insisted I go on prozac and finally I did, and I took the buspar/prozac combo for quite a while. After a while I got hypomanic and extremely sad. My sadness became constant and so did mania. Finally it turned into worse depression. I read many 'brain books' and med books, and came across information that said you shouldn't ever combine the two: prozac and Buspar. Well, by the time I came across this article I had been so depressed I was crying all the time and sexually obsessed- (not a good thing when it is an obsession) and I had already quite the buspar and was only taking prozac. After a while I felt good again.
> > > > I never did make a copy of that article I read, but I do have another source of information from another book on meds that also states this: the combination of SSRI's and buspar can produce negative effects.
> > > > This is definately what happened to me.
> > > > The negative effects far outwieghed the positive.
> > > > Hildi
> > >
> > >
> > > The info I've come across states that Buspar and Prozac diminish each other's effects. Maybe that's why many find Buspar a paltry med? It also lowers serotonin levels, so that might explain your sadness (actually that is the diminishment effect). But it might interact more favorably with a more noradrenergic med (like the TCA I'm on).Strange as it it sounds, my depression doesn't take the form of excessive sadness- more of an 'out-of-it,' disjointed feeling (something like mild dissociation, which was extreme during adolescence) and the Buspar seems to partially counter that. My therapist thinks maybe I should go on a stimulant sometime- Provigil maybe? or if I can gain enough weight on my current meds, I might consider trying Ritalin again. Until then, I am dependent on caffeine for the alertness factor- my work suffers terribly when I don't have my cup of coffee.
> > >
> > >
> > Odd. The information I came across stated something along the lines that buspar increased prozacs effects, possibly causing adverse reactions such as too much serotinin- I do agree that the combo with a TCA may be different.
> > Also interesting is that my depression was never one of sadness and deep crying tangents until I went on the buspar, which increased the crying/sadness, but stopped the 'anxiety shakes'. It seemed to open a floodgate or something- or maybe it's too many years on ad's, but I get the sadness and meloncoly (sp?)-and sometimes tearful episodes now when I try to go off the AD's, but still get a different kind of depression while ON the meds,too.
> > I also have that 'out of it' dissassociative sort of feeling at times, too.
> > Sometimes I don't know if my SSRI is making my depression worse- but when I go off I fall apart-and I've tried just about every AD there is, except MOAI's. And I can't tolerate noradrenergic ad's-I get too jittery.
> > Hildi
> >
> Noradrenergic meds do make me kind of jittery too. Considering the side effects I've had to so many other drugs, I felt like I'd gladly tolerate the edginess I was feeling on even a low dosage of nortriptyline. Some of that too was healthy- the fog was beginning to disperse and I was noticing things more, and getting irritated by things I never would have noticed before.
>
> Is it possible that the Buspar was actually counteracting the Prozac- i.e. causing SSRI withdrawal? Someone at this board said the Buspar induced the same feelings as SSRI withdrawal. I have never been on an SSRI long enough to feel the emotional blunting so many have described, but I have heard many people say they can't cry on an SSRI- that it closed the floodgates of sadness for better or worse. My ex girlfriend was going through Celexa withdrawal recently, and she told me she felt overwhelmed with sadness and had long crying spells. Isn't this consistent with too little serotonin, not too much?
>
> FWIW I've never had this effect on a TCA- even years ago when I was on 75 mg nortriptyline, it was if anything easier to cry than it had been before I had started taking it.
>
> Gosh, I am way deep into the emotional blunting now. I almost don't care about anything now. This was/is one of the reasons I keep trying to find a different med that will help with both my depression and focus/motivation and also my major anxiety. I hate feeling this numb..I want to be able to feel things and think clearly.
I just read the rxlist for buspar again, and it stated buspar increased serotonin. Maybe too much serotonin affected me adversely? I also know there are different serotonin receptors, but I don't understand what each means, and how the prozac serotonin receptor differs from that of buspar. Prozac also stays in your body a long time-especially if you've taken it for long- so I think I had some sort of reaction to these two sources of serotonin. Buspar also has a weak affinity for dopamine. Maybe I'm sensitive to that, too. (I always hated cocaine, so maybe dopamine and I do not agree) Just some theories . . .I wish I knew! What I do know is that when I take less of the prozac, and not everyday, I feel better than standard mg doses and daily. Like my body can't handle too much of it.
You are on the nortriptyline now? The adding of buspar is giving you a 'better' effect? Were you looking for a calming effect or more focus? You mentioned the ritalin earlier, but also that some TCA's can make you jittery, the noradenergic (sp?)ones at least (same as the SSRI's I suppose that work on these same receptors).
Hildi
Posted by hildi on February 10, 2003, at 0:55:58
In reply to Re: Thats fascinating Zeugma... .about the » missinglynxx, posted by zeugma on February 9, 2003, at 18:26:03
> > ability to feel normal emotions on the Nortriptyline. I dont want any numbness, I just want cheerfulness and enthusiasm when its appropriate
> >
> > Someone said Tricyclics dont change your "core" personality,, (someone on here) so Im hopeful NOrtriptyline is a keeper wish me luck
> >
> > And great luck to you on whatever it is you have been prescribed...(what exactly is your current situation)?
> >
>
> Good luck missinglynxx! And thanks for wishing me luck... I am taking 40 mg nortriptyline and 30 mg buspirone per day. That's been my routine for the last 3 weeks when I increased the buspirone to 3x a day (10 mg tabs). I found the nortriptyline by itself to be helpful for depressive and ADD symptoms (unable to sleep or eat properly, couldn't concentrate, was in a fog all the time and had bad SP which made interactions with others stressful and unproductive) but the dosage had to be kept low because of hypotensive s/e. Quite frankly I felt like it was like the melting of a glacier- an almost imperceptible process that would suddenly produce significant improvement in some area of life. Unfortunately though, it's true in life that the more you are able to do, the more is expected of you, and I was also impatient and wanting some improvement in *everything* and *now*. Which wasn't going to happen. My pdoc was convinced the nortrip was helpful so he wasn't really receptive to my belief that I needed something else to make things speed up a little. Finally he let me try to the Buspar at the lowest possible dose to start with. The combo of nortrip and buspirone is definitely the closest I've felt to *normal* probably ever.
>
>
> About the way TCA's seem to leave core personality unchanged... yes that is my impression too. I think of the SSRI's as being crisis meds- if you are overwhelmed with sadness because something has happened, numbness may be the best condition in those circumstances. I think this may be because the TCA's are a lot less selective; they cause a more subtle, because more dispersed, effect in the nervous system. That is just a speculation.
>
> I just came across this article and want to say thanks to you both! This answers a previous question I submitted to zeugma (I think) and thanks to missinglynxx for bringing this up- I feel seriously enthused. I am going to check into nortriptyline (sp?). All this information about the TCA's not changing your core personality, nortript effective for ADD and depression, and the explaination of SSRI's as 'crisis meds"- really hits home with me and seems very accurate. The numbness one feels would be appropriate for some situations, ceasing the tears and the feelings. But to feel this way everyday makes me even more depressed. It's a lose-lose situation.
Thank you both so much. Good info here that I'm going to check into further.
Hildi
Posted by missinglynxx on February 10, 2003, at 17:48:48
In reply to Thats fascinating: Zeugma. and missinglynxx, posted by hildi on February 10, 2003, at 0:55:58
Hey COOL,, Im glad Zeugma's and my rambling gave you some ideas.. At least my rambling helped you out haha. WHY NOT just call your MD and ask for a trial of Nortriptyline.?/ I think thats a fantastic idea.. Keep in touch when you decide on your next move,, Hildi! Nortriptyline is what Im taking,, ITS No miracle, but I notice Glimpses of mental toughness, and NO emotional blunting!!!!!! Nada, zilch,, which is what I seek
Emotions are valuable stuff Good luck, Hildi
Posted by zeugma on February 10, 2003, at 19:45:53
In reply to Re: Thats fascinating: Hildi, posted by missinglynxx on February 10, 2003, at 17:48:48
> Hey COOL,, Im glad Zeugma's and my rambling gave you some ideas.. At least my rambling helped you out haha. WHY NOT just call your MD and ask for a trial of Nortriptyline.?/ I think thats a fantastic idea.. Keep in touch when you decide on your next move,, Hildi! Nortriptyline is what Im taking,, ITS No miracle, but I notice Glimpses of mental toughness, and NO emotional blunting!!!!!! Nada, zilch,, which is what I seek
> Emotions are valuable stuff Good luck, HildiHildi,
Good luck from me too. I've had a similar response to nortrip as missinglynxxx... it's been a rough ride at times, it does increase NE and hence irritability, but it is great for cutting through the fog that is typical of severe ADD as well as depression.
Posted by hildi on February 12, 2003, at 23:39:57
In reply to Re: Thats fascinating: Hildi, posted by missinglynxx on February 10, 2003, at 17:48:48
Oh good! I'm glad you're also liking nortripyline. I will ask to try this- I go into my new dr. next week -on the 20th. I never considered taking this before because my anxiety is so unbelievable, but who knows- It is worth a try. I want to feel again. I want to care about things, about life. I feel like a 'stepford wife", a robot, right now. My last dr. said: "What are you complaining about, at least you're not crying". I am serious-can you believe that response!
I told him I expect more than just not to cry, and the dr. said that "I'm expecting too much". I kid you not. I'm telling you, I honestly don't how I would have dealt with all this crap from the dr. and the way I've been feeling if not for finding this board and discovering how much we have in common and discovering new ideas and getting support from so many people I don't know. It is nice to talk to others who know how I feel and be able to talk about this without being patronized.
Hildi
Posted by hildi on February 13, 2003, at 0:02:13
In reply to Re: Thats fascinating: Hildi, posted by zeugma on February 10, 2003, at 19:45:53
Thanks for the support. I am thinking of asking my dr. for a trial of this when I go in next week. I just mentioned to missinglynxx that I worried it would increase my anxiety, but I do think it is worth the 'risk' of that to give this a try. Irritability I can deal with more than increased nerviousness and anxiety.
I wonder though, if I have ADD or if it is bipolar tendencies -brought on by the ad's possibly. I get racing thoughts, restlessness, and hyperness at times- actually every day. I can't sit still- I have to keep moving unless I take a ton of benzos. I thought it was just the anxiety, but the benzos don't really take care of the anxiety, just help slow me down. But I still feel agitated and I wonder if it's a tad of BP or ADD. I try to get as much information as I can on these subjects but still don't know.
Cutting through the fog, like you said the nortrip does- I remember many years ago feeling that way for a very brief period of time when I started prozac- but then it all went downhill and the fog is thick, very thick now. The benzos I take along with the prozac probably add to the fog, but do slow down some of the hyperness and desire to rearrange things all the time! I can't sit still and talk to someone- I have to jump up and fix a slanted picture or do something 'busy' that doesn't require thought, just movement.
So, anyway, I mystify myself. I don't know what I have-beside a major anxiety d/o and depression.
My question is: if I am BP, would a TCA, would nortrip, make it worse? (I read somewhere that TCA's make BP worse-but I don't know if I am BP and even if so, it would probably be BPII) It helps ADD so that sounds interesting . . .
Wish I knew what my real diagnosis was/is, but who cares if I can find something that works. Labels don't always make the best resources for prescribing meds since people respond so differently to the meds, anyway.
Hildi
Posted by zeugma on February 13, 2003, at 20:11:14
In reply to Re: Thats fascinating: Hildi » zeugma, posted by hildi on February 13, 2003, at 0:02:13
> Thanks for the support. I am thinking of asking my dr. for a trial of this when I go in next week. I just mentioned to missinglynxx that I worried it would increase my anxiety, but I do think it is worth the 'risk' of that to give this a try. Irritability I can deal with more than increased nerviousness and anxiety.
> I wonder though, if I have ADD or if it is bipolar tendencies -brought on by the ad's possibly. I get racing thoughts, restlessness, and hyperness at times- actually every day. I can't sit still- I have to keep moving unless I take a ton of benzos. I thought it was just the anxiety, but the benzos don't really take care of the anxiety, just help slow me down. But I still feel agitated and I wonder if it's a tad of BP or ADD. I try to get as much information as I can on these subjects but still don't know.
> Cutting through the fog, like you said the nortrip does- I remember many years ago feeling that way for a very brief period of time when I started prozac- but then it all went downhill and the fog is thick, very thick now. The benzos I take along with the prozac probably add to the fog, but do slow down some of the hyperness and desire to rearrange things all the time! I can't sit still and talk to someone- I have to jump up and fix a slanted picture or do something 'busy' that doesn't require thought, just movement.
> So, anyway, I mystify myself. I don't know what I have-beside a major anxiety d/o and depression.
> My question is: if I am BP, would a TCA, would nortrip, make it worse? (I read somewhere that TCA's make BP worse-but I don't know if I am BP and even if so, it would probably be BPII) It helps ADD so that sounds interesting . . .
> Wish I knew what my real diagnosis was/is, but who cares if I can find something that works. Labels don't always make the best resources for prescribing meds since people respond so differently to the meds, anyway.
> Hildi
>Hildi-
I don't know if you have BP or are just more efficient than I am (ha). I know nortriptyline is not recommeded for BP's- causes phase change, as the insert from Rite Aid said. Nortriptyline helps with ADD though. It makes things like writing much easier- I always had trouble getting my thoughts out- the movements seemed too complex- I can express myself a lot more clearly these days (good thing because I'm in graduate school and should be writing every day). It also helped with anxiety but in a subtle way. I obseved that certain things were less scary, but I had to stop and think about it for a minute before realizing it.
Btw I totally understood where you were coming from when you described your meeting with your dr. in your reply to missinglynxx. Generally doctors aren't concerned with whether you're meeting your life goals - as long as you're not breaking down in front of them. I've been thinking a lot about what I hope to achieve with these meds, as well as how I actually want to feel on them. For me getting the self-loathing and fearfulness and fog under control is a big part of it- so is being able to function in a more normal way and being able to work more and advance on earning a living. Maybe it's too ambitious, but if I didn't have these goals I don't think I'd be getting the most out of the meds. I'd hate to think I was tweaking my brain chemistry for nothing. I think you're totally justified in wanting more from your meds.
Good luck,
z
Posted by hildi on February 13, 2003, at 22:51:02
In reply to Re: Thats fascinating: Hildi, posted by zeugma on February 13, 2003, at 20:11:14
Too ambitious? No way. I don't expect a miracle from medicine, but I want to be able to live a life where I can achieve my goals, and not to feel 'self-loathing' or 'fearful'; also not to feel drugged or in a daze. I quite drugs so I wouldn't be in a daze-also booze (but then, I'm an alcoholic so I had no choice: quit drinking or die in a gutter somewhere).
Without being able to have my goals and the ability to acheive them, I would feel like I'm living a half a life- my goals-school, career, more financial security, etc- give me something to look forward to, work towards, be productive and good at, and be excited about, but even more than that and I think you understand.
I am an undergrad still, but soon will be graduating and going on to further my education.
For me, the writing can get hard because I'm such a perfectionist I tend to over-do it, or if I'm having a really bad day I sit and stare with not a thought in my head. What to write? Where to start? Very scary. All the reading freaks me out too, because I have such a hard time sitting still and concentrating- I have to keep reading same passage over and over again, or the words seems to 'bounce' off the pages. Also scary.
But I don't think it's too much to ask to try to find the right meds and formula, nutrients, etc . . to make the most that we can out of our lives and our brains. I think we deserve it. I want the rest of my years to be good ones. Not drugged, spaced out, doing nothing years, but good, productive, happy ones.
Hildi
Posted by missinglynxx on February 14, 2003, at 10:38:17
In reply to Re: Thats fascinating: Hildi » zeugma, posted by hildi on February 13, 2003, at 22:51:02
Great Post Hildi!
Ill get right to the point,, Nortriptyline is a VERY clear drug. I feel you would do great on it. It doesnt cause a loss of IQ (sadly It doesnt increase your IQ either haha) BUT what drug does, IN other words IT doesnt have any of the "dumbing" down affects of Alcohol & some of the drugs mentioned here, I wont name names cuz youve already committed them to memory
Just go for it and expect side effects !
after all they were discovered in the 50's NOT exactly a very high tech era in America
Go FETCH some Nortriptyline,, Hildi
BTW which university are you at?
Posted by hildi on February 14, 2003, at 22:26:42
In reply to Re: Thats fascinating: Hildi, posted by missinglynxx on February 14, 2003, at 10:38:17
Roosevelt University in Chicago Illinois. Majoring in psychology- and will continue my graduate studies in just what, haven't pin-pointed it down yet-something with law/social justice/advocacy-
I was an environmental science major at first, but changed majors due to several reasons, and I know that if I cannot/do not go that route I still want to do something in educating/protecting people against social injustice/environmental degradation, etc. . .
What is your major (in both undergrad and Grad),and what school do you go to?
Hildi
Posted by not exactly on February 14, 2003, at 23:39:55
In reply to Re: Thats fascinating: Hildi, posted by missinglynxx on February 14, 2003, at 10:38:17
Your posts about nortriptyline have been informative and inspiring. In fact, your positive experiences (along with similar reports from other psycho-babblers) enabled me to overcome my fears & prejudices about TCAs.
I tried amitriptyline once, and found the sedation, thought-clouding, and other side effects so severe that I felt like I'd been poisoned. So I concluded that the entire TCA category was not for me. Web research had bolstered that negative opinion - many sites (such as biopsychiatry.com, which seems to have otherwise informed and enlightened views) refer to TCAs as "dumb drugs" which are best avoided.
Last month, I considered trying Strattera, but when I found out that my insurance would not cover the Rx, I started searching for other norepinephrine-enhancing meds. When I learned that desipramine was almost as NE-specific as Strattera (and WAY cheaper), I decided to give it a try. My experience so far (exactly 2 weeks) has been encouraging. Side effects have been minimal and are now virtually unnoticable. My mood, motivation, and overall meaningful connection to life have improved. The improvement has not been dramatic, in fact it's been surprisingly subtle. But each day things are a bit better than the day before, and there's no sign that I've leveled off yet. I know that delayed onset and gradual improvement are traditional for antidepressants, but this has never been the case for me before. In the past, every other AD I've tried (and there have been a bunch) "did its thing" (for better or worse) within the first few days.
Anyway, I'm now wondering about how desipramine & nortriptyline compare. Have either of you tried desipramine? My understanding is that nortriptyline is slightly more serotonergic, antimuscarinic, and sedating compared to desipramine. If desipramine turns out to be an incomplete solution, do you think nortriptyline would be worth a try?
I'm also intrigued by the idea of augmenting a TCA with Buspar. I may try this next once I see where the desipramine plateaus out.
- Bob
Posted by missinglynxx on February 15, 2003, at 4:25:33
In reply to TCAs » missinglynxx, zeugma, posted by not exactly on February 14, 2003, at 23:39:55
> Your posts about nortriptyline have been informative and inspiring. In fact, your positive experiences (along with similar reports from other psycho-babblers) enabled me to overcome my fears & prejudices about TCAs.
>
> I tried amitriptyline once, and found the sedation, thought-clouding, and other side effects so severe that I felt like I'd been poisoned. So I concluded that the entire TCA category was not for me. Web research had bolstered that negative opinion - many sites (such as biopsychiatry.com, which seems to have otherwise informed and enlightened views) refer to TCAs as "dumb drugs" which are best avoided.
>
> Last month, I considered trying Strattera, but when I found out that my insurance would not cover the Rx, I started searching for other norepinephrine-enhancing meds. When I learned that desipramine was almost as NE-specific as Strattera (and WAY cheaper), I decided to give it a try. My experience so far (exactly 2 weeks) has been encouraging. Side effects have been minimal and are now virtually unnoticable. My mood, motivation, and overall meaningful connection to life have improved. The improvement has not been dramatic, in fact it's been surprisingly subtle. But each day things are a bit better than the day before, and there's no sign that I've leveled off yet. I know that delayed onset and gradual improvement are traditional for antidepressants, but this has never been the case for me before. In the past, every other AD I've tried (and there have been a bunch) "did its thing" (for better or worse) within the first few days.
>
> Anyway, I'm now wondering about how desipramine & nortriptyline compare. Have either of you tried desipramine? My understanding is that nortriptyline is slightly more serotonergic, antimuscarinic, and sedating compared to desipramine. If desipramine turns out to be an incomplete solution, do you think nortriptyline would be worth a try?
>
> I'm also intrigued by the idea of augmenting a TCA with Buspar. I may try this next once I see where the desipramine plateaus out.
>
> - Bob
>Thats an awesome progress Report BOB. It couldnt have happened to a COOLER person on this forum,, to find a medication that actually "fits" like a glove pretty much
I understand your point about a gradual shift,, a subtile feeling
Think of this like an intense COLLEGE football game. Sometimes the good guys (US)need to just get a simple first down. Then Rest and plan our next play.
I dislike medications that feel "like" I took a powerful drug....Thats why I like caffeine, and tea haha its weak stuff
ON my research I feel Desiprimine and NOrtriptyline are nearly Identical, dont you?
Im still adjusting to the anticholinegic thing,,, are you?
I do feel more quiet on NOrtripyline,, which is NOT good,, but I think after another month I will get a better :viewpoint:
Thanks for the kind words, Bob and Im thrilled you are taking the :right Medication: Spring will be awesome for you this year.
What is your dose of Desiprimine,,, do you get constipation and dry mouth?
Posted by missinglynxx on February 15, 2003, at 4:39:48
In reply to TCAs » missinglynxx, zeugma, posted by not exactly on February 14, 2003, at 23:39:55
Bob,I would also split my dose thruout the day!
I like putting some on my tongue, its so COOL how it numbs it up and doesnt taste HALF BAD LOL. Its just like NovocaineHave you noticed that on putting some Desiprimine on your tongue?
Posted by zeugma on February 15, 2003, at 7:05:04
In reply to TCAs » missinglynxx, zeugma, posted by not exactly on February 14, 2003, at 23:39:55
> Your posts about nortriptyline have been informative and inspiring. In fact, your positive experiences (along with similar reports from other psycho-babblers) enabled me to overcome my fears & prejudices about TCAs.
>
> I tried amitriptyline once, and found the sedation, thought-clouding, and other side effects so severe that I felt like I'd been poisoned. So I concluded that the entire TCA category was not for me. Web research had bolstered that negative opinion - many sites (such as biopsychiatry.com, which seems to have otherwise informed and enlightened views) refer to TCAs as "dumb drugs" which are best avoided.
>
> Last month, I considered trying Strattera, but when I found out that my insurance would not cover the Rx, I started searching for other norepinephrine-enhancing meds. When I learned that desipramine was almost as NE-specific as Strattera (and WAY cheaper), I decided to give it a try. My experience so far (exactly 2 weeks) has been encouraging. Side effects have been minimal and are now virtually unnoticable. My mood, motivation, and overall meaningful connection to life have improved. The improvement has not been dramatic, in fact it's been surprisingly subtle. But each day things are a bit better than the day before, and there's no sign that I've leveled off yet. I know that delayed onset and gradual improvement are traditional for antidepressants, but this has never been the case for me before. In the past, every other AD I've tried (and there have been a bunch) "did its thing" (for better or worse) within the first few days.
>
> Anyway, I'm now wondering about how desipramine & nortriptyline compare. Have either of you tried desipramine? My understanding is that nortriptyline is slightly more serotonergic, antimuscarinic, and sedating compared to desipramine. If desipramine turns out to be an incomplete solution, do you think nortriptyline would be worth a try?
>
> I'm also intrigued by the idea of augmenting a TCA with Buspar. I may try this next once I see where the desipramine plateaus out.
>
> - Bob
>i'm very happy that you've had some success with desipramine. No, I've never tried it, but it seems similar to nortriptyline- as you said, nortriptyline is a little more serotenergic and sedating (it's the sedating that's important for me). I remember that site at biopsychiatry.com- they called TCA's "cheap, nasty and best avoided." Well, as I had posted around here recently, the last day I missed work because of chronic nausea was the day I started taking nortriptyline. So I had my own ideas on what was "nasty." I think over there they're a little too concerned with how a drug looks on paper and with how "clean" it is ( a prejudice shared in my opinion by much of the psychiatric community).
I also found nortriptyline to have a subtle effect. Aside from the relief from GI pain, which WAS pretty dramatic, I found myself feeling a little less awful in the morning... made sleep a little more restful or something. I guess I have classic melancholic depression, and TCA"s *ARE* the preferred treatment for that. Also about that slow response curve.. I can't say whether it's the conjunction with the Buspar or not, but I have been consistently going to sleep before midnight for about a month now- I am someone who suffered from insomnia since early childhood, so I am VERY happy about that. Are your symptoms at all similar? A lot of the problem with other AD's, aside from the ones I was allergic to, was that they seemed to worsen these 'melancholic' symptoms.
I was also told to try Strattera by my pdoc before it came out. But I would try desipramine first, because it seems like I would have the same problem with Strattera that I did with Prozac and Cylert- worsened sleep and appetite problems. Not to mention TCA's are way cheaper. I'm already spending a fortune on generic buspirone. Being the skeptic that I am, I was wondering this morning if I was experiencing the placebo effect from the Buspar. It's a pretty convincing one, though, so it's money well spent.
z
Posted by Ilene on February 15, 2003, at 22:00:47
In reply to Re: TCAs and success?! » not exactly, posted by missinglynxx on February 15, 2003, at 4:25:33
> What is your dose of Desiprimine,,, do you get constipation and dry mouth?
Desipramine was the first AD I was on, about 15 or 16 years ago. I got constipation and dry mouth. At first I tried bran and other less drastic means, but I ended up taking several colace (or a generic) per day. (Colace is a stool softener.)
The dry mouth ended up being more of a problem, because I didn't know it could cause dental problems, which it did.
I also got postural hypotension. None of the side effects wore off, even though the antidepressant effect did.
--I.
Posted by missinglynxx on February 16, 2003, at 2:45:19
In reply to Re: TCAs and success?! » missinglynxx, posted by Ilene on February 15, 2003, at 22:00:47
> > What is your dose of Desiprimine,,, do you get constipation and dry mouth?
>
> Desipramine was the first AD I was on, about 15 or 16 years ago. I got constipation and dry mouth. At first I tried bran and other less drastic means, but I ended up taking several colace (or a generic) per day. (Colace is a stool softener.)
>
> The dry mouth ended up being more of a problem, because I didn't know it could cause dental problems, which it did.
>
> I also got postural hypotension. None of the side effects wore off, even though the antidepressant effect did.
>
> --I.Thanks for the great tip, Ilene!
Ill try that out, the bran to start out with, The constipation isnt BAD< very mild, but the dry mouth is a BUGGER. I hope youve found the right treatment.. Have you moved on to a new drug and what is it? How are you feeling this past month? GOOD Luck and thanks
Posted by missinglynxx on February 17, 2003, at 13:30:59
In reply to TCAs » missinglynxx, zeugma, posted by not exactly on February 14, 2003, at 23:39:55
you are doing really well on Desiprimine,, thats great dude/
But you seem so bright, what kind of problems have you had with the heavy hitters (Effexor, Celexa, Luvox)?
I figured that would have cured you up by now?
Oh the Buspar.......Thats one of the most interesting medications on the Planet
Its a mystery, sure gives EVERYONE a buzzy head,reaction...
I really thing its valuable Stuff
Posted by not exactly on February 17, 2003, at 23:32:00
In reply to Re: TCAs and success?! » not exactly, posted by missinglynxx on February 15, 2003, at 4:25:33
> ON my research I feel Desiprimine and NOrtriptyline are nearly Identical, dont you?
Much of what I've read makes them sound very similar. However, I've run across a few websites that either directly contrast them [for example, http://www.umich.edu/~pharm660/addrugs.pdf] or give enough specific information about both to permit a meaningful comparison [for example, http://sl.schofield3.home.att.net/medicine/psychiatric_drugs_chart.html]. Based on this, I chose desipramine because it seemed more "activating" and less likely to cause unpleasant side effects.
> Im still adjusting to the anticholinegic thing,,, are you?
Hasn't been a problem for me. Anticholinergic drugs generally don't bother me, and some I even enjoy. For example, I always found atropine to be a pleasant stimulant. But then, my neurochemistry doesn't work like most people's.
> Im thrilled you are taking the :right Medication:
Time will tell if it's really right, but for now it's a helluva lot less wrong than most other ADs I've tried.
> Spring will be awesome for you this year.
Thanks... I hope you're right.
> do you get constipation and dry mouth?
Had some mild constipation at first, but my regular regularity is so irregular that I can't be sure it was the desipramine. And I never noticed any significant mouth-drying effects.
- Bob
Posted by not exactly on February 17, 2003, at 23:45:56
In reply to Re: TCAs, posted by missinglynxx on February 15, 2003, at 4:39:48
> Bob,I would also split my dose thruout the day!
Thanks for the tip. My pdoc had told me that there wasn't any advantage to doing that, but based on your advice I tried going to b.i.d. and noticed a significant improvement. Less side effects at the peak; more consistent benefit all day.
> I like putting some on my tongue, its so COOL how it numbs it up
> Have you noticed that on putting some Desiprimine on your tongue?Yup. Noticed that with amitriptyline too. I've heard that all TCAs do that.
- Bob
Posted by not exactly on February 18, 2003, at 0:14:32
In reply to Re: TCAs » not exactly, posted by zeugma on February 15, 2003, at 7:05:04
> I found myself feeling a little less awful in the morning... made sleep a little more restful or something. I guess I have classic melancholic depression, and TCA"s *ARE* the preferred treatment for that.
> I have been consistently going to sleep before midnight for about a month now- I am someone who suffered from insomnia since early childhood, so I am VERY happy about that. Are your symptoms at all similar?Some of our symptoms are similar, but other aspects are quite opposite. For example, the only times I've ever had insomnia were when I've taken too high a dose of a stimulant. When unmedicated, I have no trouble falling asleep and tend towards hypersomnia. If I don't have any specific need to get out of bed (since I'm currently unemployed and live alone, this is often the case), I can easily sleep for 12 hours at a time. My main problem is anhedonia, which is often so severe that most things don't seem rewarding enough to be worth expending any effort on. Externally, it looks like depression, lack of motivation, lethargy, or ADD, but mostly it's the old WHY BOTHER syndrome. Stimulating meds help me the most.
> I was also told to try Strattera by my pdoc before it came out. But I would try desipramine first, because it seems like I would have the same problem with Strattera that I did with Prozac and Cylert- worsened sleep and appetite problems.
If that's how your neurochemistry works, you may find desipramine to be too stimulating for you. But it's definitely cheaper to try than Strattera. I recommend you start with a very small dose and take it in the morning.
- Bob
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