![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 30. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Cam W. on July 31, 2001, at 0:59:43
Sal - What psychopharmaceutical training do you have? Do you realize the damage that you can do by quoting abstracts you do not understand? An abstract tells you nothing of the real intentions of the study. What are the limitations of the studies you quote? What statistical methods were used to arrive at the conclusions of the researchers? Were there enough study participants to make any real conclusions or were the conclusions only preliminary? Can the results of the study be generalized to clinical practice or are they only for a select homogeneous group? Who funded the study?
Do you realize that you could be seriously undermining doctor/patient relationships with your comments? Many of your replies are dangerous and I do not want to be part of a board that disseminates the sort of information you give.
Bye all - Cam
Posted by Zo on July 31, 2001, at 2:15:26
In reply to SalArmy4Me, posted by Cam W. on July 31, 2001, at 0:59:43
There is no harm being done, Cam! No harm!
I give us all credit to know not to chart our med decisions by one post, by one reference. To know there's a million studies / references out there. .
In fact, that's the very spirit and function of this board! To feel our way along, in this plethora of information, by comparing notes.
You know perfectly well this is part of Sal's very real helpfulness, and that he is an asset to the board.
So come back. . .relax. .. let everyone contribute who they are and what they have. It's *all* valuable, and who knows what post will strike someone else *just* right.
Zo
Posted by JohnL on July 31, 2001, at 5:22:12
In reply to SalArmy4Me, posted by Cam W. on July 31, 2001, at 0:59:43
> Sal - What psychopharmaceutical training do you have? Do you realize the damage that you can do by quoting abstracts you do not understand? An abstract tells you nothing of the real intentions of the study. What are the limitations of the studies you quote? What statistical methods were used to arrive at the conclusions of the researchers? Were there enough study participants to make any real conclusions or were the conclusions only preliminary? Can the results of the study be generalized to clinical practice or are they only for a select homogeneous group? Who funded the study?
>
> Do you realize that you could be seriously undermining doctor/patient relationships with your comments? Many of your replies are dangerous and I do not want to be part of a board that disseminates the sort of information you give.
>
> Bye all - CamCam, I hope you feel better soon. You seem a bit troubled, and I get the sense SalArmy is not the root cause of that.
The only thing I don't like about SalArmy comments is that they stear people toward drugs that just haven't proved very useful in the real world, such as Pindolol and Buspar and junk like that. There are a lot of drugs that look fantastic on paper, but in reality seem to disappoint time and time again. Like Pindolol and Buspar. Though clinical trials show great promise with these two drugs, you would have to search far and wide to find anyone doing well with them. Oh I'm sure there are a few, but very few. And not just those two drugs, but others as well.
There are other drugs that seem to shine above the rest in the REAL world. Some of the clinical research supports them, some of it doesnt't, so clinical research has to be taken with a grain of salt. I instead prefer to focus on what actually really works in the real world. SalArmy will get to that point as well. I too was once a research junky like SalArmy, and people had patience with me. After a while though it became obvious through my own trial and error with the drugs I was researching that research gives no indication whatsoever of might be helpful to someone. It's basically useless in the real world.
With that in mind, and in an effort to keep this thread on track as a medication issue, it is my opinion that the entire psychiatric world would be much more successful if the threw all the clinical research in the trash but instead limited treating depression patients to just these drugs:
Prozac
Effexor
Zyprexa
Risperdal
Ritalin
Adderall
Adrafinil
AmisulprideForget all the others until combinations of any two or three of the above have been exhausted. I guarantee that approach will bring wellness to the patient much faster than trying to go by research. Like I said, I go with what works in the REAL world, and the above drugs have proven their worth as gold in that regard.
John
Posted by JohnL on July 31, 2001, at 5:30:04
In reply to Re: SalArmy4Me, posted by JohnL on July 31, 2001, at 5:22:12
Cam,
I don't think you should leave this board. You serve a valuable purpose and have helped many many people. If someone here presents evidence that you think is questionable, you can serve the purpose of refuting it and showing the other side of the coin. That way patients and doctors can consider both sides of the issue when making decisions.Your input is respected and very valuable. I want and hope for you to stick around!
John
Posted by Else on July 31, 2001, at 7:26:37
In reply to Re: SalArmy4Me, posted by JohnL on July 31, 2001, at 5:22:12
You're on slippery ground here.
> The only thing I don't like about SalArmy comments is that they stear people toward drugs that just haven't proved very useful in the real world, such as Pindolol and Buspar and junk like that. There are a lot of drugs that look fantastic on paper, but in reality seem to disappoint time and time again. Like Pindolol and Buspar. Though clinical trials show great promise with these two drugs, you would have to search far and wide to find anyone doing well with them. Oh I'm sure there are a few, but very few. And not just those two drugs, but others as well.
>
> There are other drugs that seem to shine above the rest in the REAL world. Some of the clinical research supports them, some of it doesnt't, so clinical research has to be taken with a grain of salt. I instead prefer to focus on what actually really works in the real world. SalArmy will get to that point as well. I too was once a research junky like SalArmy, and people had patience with me. After a while though it became obvious through my own trial and error with the drugs I was researching that research gives no indication whatsoever of might be helpful to someone. It's basically useless in the real world.
>
> With that in mind, and in an effort to keep this thread on track as a medication issue, it is my opinion that the entire psychiatric world would be much more successful if the threw all the clinical research in the trash but instead limited treating depression patients to just these drugs:
> Prozac
> Effexor
> Zyprexa
> Risperdal
> Ritalin
> Adderall
> Adrafinil
> Amisulpride
>
> Forget all the others until combinations of any two or three of the above have been exhausted. I guarantee that approach will bring wellness to the patient much faster than trying to go by research. Like I said, I go with what works in the REAL world, and the above drugs have proven their worth as gold in that regard.
> John
Posted by Hattree on July 31, 2001, at 9:42:03
In reply to Re: SalArmy4Me » JohnL, posted by Else on July 31, 2001, at 7:26:37
I read all your posts, whatever the subject. Please stay.
Posted by Maung on July 31, 2001, at 10:50:39
In reply to SalArmy4Me, posted by Cam W. on July 31, 2001, at 0:59:43
Cam, It is largely because of your posts that I read this board....I deeply respect what you have to say and the information you freely share with others...stay please
Posted by AKC on July 31, 2001, at 11:36:37
In reply to Re: YOUR EXPERTISE IS NEEDED » Cam W., posted by Maung on July 31, 2001, at 10:50:39
Cam,
I'm relatively new to this board - I sure don't want you to go. I share your frustration with certain posters on PB. But your insight is invaluable to me and to others. I hope you will be able to find a balance -- a way to ignore those who trouble you -- to be able to continue to share with us. But most importantly, I hope you may be able to continue to find a way to benefit yourself from this board. For no matter how much I or others want you to stay for our own benefit, if you do not feel safe here, if you are not benefitting, I will understand your decision to move on to safer grounds.
AKC
Posted by shelliR on July 31, 2001, at 12:04:06
In reply to SalArmy4Me, posted by Cam W. on July 31, 2001, at 0:59:43
> Bye all - CamI'm with Zo on this one. Sal tries to help in the way he knows how and we are free to either read or skip his posts. Annoying sometimes, perhaps, but dangerous, I really think not. Most of the readers of this board have a pdoc, so I think anyone's input is only as valuable as one's pdoc thinks. And if one is self medicating, my guess is their self medication would not be based on Sal's abstracts.
Seems to me, that something else is going on with you. If everyone left the board because they found one other poster annoying, there would be, I'm afraid, no one left. Your fans are calling for you. Me, well, I'll love to have you stay, but begging isn't really my style. Hope you change your mind, but you're an adult and it's your call.
Shelli
Posted by Willow on July 31, 2001, at 15:02:22
In reply to Re: Cam Come Back!, posted by JohnL on July 31, 2001, at 5:30:04
Fellow Babblers
Cam has not left this board voluntarily. The man up above will not let him in, because he used an incorrect pronoun meanwhile discussing a difference of opinion.
He has been exiled for a period of one week from the time this occurred.
Weeping Willow
Posted by mila on July 31, 2001, at 15:30:44
In reply to Re: Cam Come Back!, posted by Willow on July 31, 2001, at 15:02:22
Cam,Please, come back. Please, start posting. There are so many questions on this board that beg for your answer. I love your writing. Besides knowledge you lavish on us your kindness, and goodness, and sense of humor, and your life stories, and whatnot. Please be back as soon as possible.
mila
Posted by JohnL on July 31, 2001, at 18:27:50
In reply to Re: SalArmy4Me » JohnL, posted by Else on July 31, 2001, at 7:26:37
>
> You're on slippery ground here.Hi Else,
Boy, I sure seem to have hit a nerve with you. My goodness. My apologies though, as that was not my intention.Hey, it's ok for you to have your opinion stated above. If you like the path you are on, stay with it. Been there, done that.
Posted by stjames on July 31, 2001, at 21:36:32
In reply to Re: Cam Come Back!, posted by Willow on July 31, 2001, at 15:02:22
> Fellow Babblers
>
> Cam has not left this board voluntarily. The man up above will not let him in, because he used an incorrect pronoun meanwhile discussing a difference of opinion.
>
> He has been exiled for a period of one week from the time this occurred.James here.....
But he did start this thread on 7/31.
james
Posted by Willow on July 31, 2001, at 23:55:31
In reply to Re: Cam Come Back!, posted by stjames on July 31, 2001, at 21:36:32
Oops, I goofed! The board had archived and I hadn't seen the beginning.
Hopefully he'll be back!
Whispering Willow
Posted by stjames on July 31, 2001, at 23:58:58
In reply to It was a ghost!, posted by Willow on July 31, 2001, at 23:55:31
> Oops, I goofed! The board had archived and I hadn't seen the beginning.
>
> Hopefully he'll be back!
>
> Whispering WillowJames here...
I hope so, too.
Posted by mila on August 1, 2001, at 0:59:06
In reply to Re: It was a ghost!, posted by stjames on July 31, 2001, at 23:58:58
Whew, that's great!
thanks, Cam.
People, Cam is back!!! and he has a double lol
Posted by Neal on August 1, 2001, at 1:49:41
In reply to Re: Cam Come Back!, posted by stjames on July 31, 2001, at 21:36:32
Cam, like all of us, occasionally needs a break from this board. He'll probably be back sometime soon.
Posted by Gracie2 on August 1, 2001, at 4:51:59
In reply to Re: Cam Come Back!, posted by Neal on August 1, 2001, at 1:49:41
Cam simply suffers from professional pride and although I am not a pharmacist, I can relate as it implies to my own job as an x-ray technician.Although I am a schooled, state-licensed and nationally certified x-ray technologist required to submit continuing education credits to remain certified, it is not illegal for anyone - your postman, your hairdresser or your second-grader - to operate x-ray equipment. This is just as ludicrous and dangerous as the uninformed dispensing advice about medication - not only because of the radiation involved, but because an accurate diagnosis can be determined only by an optimal radiograph provided by trained and qualified personnel.
Insist that your x-rays are taken by only ARRT-certified technicians!
Climbing off the soapbox-
Gracie
Posted by Else on August 1, 2001, at 7:13:20
In reply to Re: SalArmy4Me Else, posted by JohnL on July 31, 2001, at 18:27:50
Sorry if I come off really hostile. I am not. It's just that I think you should probably take care of the beam in your own eye (is that how it goes? I'm not too good with english proverbs.)Sal appears to be doing the same thing you do if what Cam says is accurate. I say this because of the explanation you gave Pellmell above. ANyway, no hard feelings I hope.
> >
> > You're on slippery ground here.
>
> Hi Else,
> Boy, I sure seem to have hit a nerve with you. My goodness. My apologies though, as that was not my intention.
>
> Hey, it's ok for you to have your opinion stated above. If you like the path you are on, stay with it. Been there, done that.
Posted by Maung on August 1, 2001, at 7:22:04
In reply to glad you are back!, posted by mila on August 1, 2001, at 0:59:06
> Whew, that's great!
>
> thanks, Cam.
>
> People, Cam is back!!! and he has a double lolSo I see,.....very clever!! This is fun!! Maung is really Sue.
Posted by shelliR on August 1, 2001, at 9:58:41
In reply to Re: SalArmy4Me, posted by JohnL on July 31, 2001, at 5:22:12
l.
>
> There are other drugs that seem to shine above the rest in the REAL world. Some of the clinical research supports them, some of it doesnt't, so clinical research has to be taken with a grain of salt. I instead prefer to focus on what actually really works in the real world. SalArmy will get to that point as well. I too was once a research junky like SalArmy, and people had patience with me. After a while though it became obvious through my own trial and error with the drugs I was researching that research gives no indication whatsoever of might be helpful to someone. It's basically useless in the real world.
>
> With that in mind, and in an effort to keep this thread on track as a medication issue, it is my opinion that the entire psychiatric world would be much more successful if the threw all the clinical research in the trash but instead limited treating depression patients to just these drugs:
> Prozac
> Effexor
> Zyprexa
> Risperdal
> Ritalin
> Adderall
> Adrafinil
> Amisulpride
>
> Forget all the others until combinations of any two or three of the above have been exhausted. I guarantee that approach will bring wellness to the patient much faster than trying to go by research. Like I said, I go with what works in the REAL world, and the above drugs have proven their worth as gold in that regard.
> JohnFirst of all John, you have left out some very important drug categories, including MAOIs, tricyclics, and mood stabilizers, all which work for thousands of depressed people. Lamictal particularly is showing pretty amazing results in combination with ADs. I truely am glad that these medications have helped you, and I would assume that they have also helped many others. But get real here: what is your experience of the REAL world--this board? I have seen as many failures with the drugs that you mentioned as successes on this board. Personality I am not able to tolerate APs, effexor, or stimulents (except for concerta), so that leaves me quite bare on your list. And yes, I have tried prozac with concerta with negative results. So, what do you owe me, under you guarantee? ("I guarantee this approach...".). Your lack of data astounds me more than your lack of credentials.
Again, I am not saying that any of the drugs you list cannot add up to a successful outcome for some people, but come down to earth. You truly have no stats to stand on.
Shelli
Posted by tina on August 1, 2001, at 10:14:08
In reply to Re: SalArmy4Me » JohnL, posted by shelliR on August 1, 2001, at 9:58:41
>but come down to earth. You truly have no stats to stand on.
>
> ShelliHence the problem Cam is having with the unsubstantiated pseudo-prescribing of unqualified individuals.
well said Shelli!
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 1, 2001, at 12:04:20
In reply to Re: Cam Come Back!, posted by Neal on August 1, 2001, at 1:49:41
> Cam, like all of us, occasionally needs a break from this board. He'll probably be back sometime soon.
How about if the Cam-related discussion continues on Psycho-Social-Babble?
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20010731/msgs/8530.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Elizabeth on August 1, 2001, at 14:32:51
In reply to Re: SalArmy4Me » JohnL, posted by shelliR on August 1, 2001, at 9:58:41
> First of all John, you have left out some very important drug categories, including MAOIs, tricyclics, and mood stabilizers, all which work for thousands of depressed people.
Sure. I think it's a YMMV thing; you can't predict what will work for other people based only on what works for you.
> Lamictal particularly is showing pretty amazing results in combination with ADs.
A perfect example. Personally, I didn't find it at all useful. Similarly, atypical antipsychotics, stimulants, etc. (i.e., the things on JohnL's list) aren't The Answer for everyone. Different people have different problems: there isn't any "short list" of drugs that help with all psychiatric conditions.
> Your lack of data astounds me more than your lack of credentials.
*ouch* :-)
-elizabeth
Posted by shelliR on August 1, 2001, at 16:40:30
In reply to the real world » shelliR, posted by Elizabeth on August 1, 2001, at 14:32:51
>
> > Your lack of data astounds me more than your lack of credentials.
>
> *ouch* :-)
>
> -elizabethWow, I didn't really mean to create an *ouch* moment.
I meant: I don't mind that you don't have credentials but I am surprised that
you come to these conclusions, lacking the data to support them.
That sounded so boring :-)
But I didn't mean to sting you.
Sorry JohnL.Shelli
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