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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Cylse on July 23, 2001, at 16:04:51
I've read over other threads and many have said that lowered levels of serotonin do not cause depression, but according to research on people who have used MDMA, or ecstasy, this is the case - they disgourge all their serotonin and destroy some nerve endings, thus a resultant depression ensues that can last anywhere from a day to a few weeks.
According to other research I've purused, long-term use of this substance can cause long-term depression, and they find that it takes about 7 years for the brain to fully recover.
Unfortunately, I indulged before the research was out, but not for too long. I noticed that as I did the drug, my periods of depression became longer and longer and I wasn't able to rebound as I once was.
So, that said, would taking a supplement like 5-HTP help with this kind of depression? I've also disocvered that tryptophan actually isn't highly available in protein, except in certain dark meat-rich fowl like duck and turkey. Also, being that it is a naturally occurring compound and thus un-patentable, drug companies are less than enthusiastic about it.
I have taken Wellbutrin in the past, which caused a severe manic episode that lasted about a week and was completely terrifying, and Amytriptaline, Buspar, Celexa, xanax, valium, clozepam. Xanax was too addictive for me, although it provided the greatest measure of relief.
thanks in advance for any help or information.
Posted by adamie on July 23, 2001, at 22:57:37
In reply to MDMA and depression, posted by Cylse on July 23, 2001, at 16:04:51
> I've read over other threads and many have said that lowered levels of serotonin do not cause depression, but according to research on people who have used MDMA, or ecstasy, this is the case - they disgourge all their serotonin and destroy some nerve endings, thus a resultant depression ensues that can last anywhere from a day to a few weeks.
>
> According to other research I've purused, long-term use of this substance can cause long-term depression, and they find that it takes about 7 years for the brain to fully recover.
>
> Unfortunately, I indulged before the research was out, but not for too long. I noticed that as I did the drug, my periods of depression became longer and longer and I wasn't able to rebound as I once was.
>
> So, that said, would taking a supplement like 5-HTP help with this kind of depression? I've also disocvered that tryptophan actually isn't highly available in protein, except in certain dark meat-rich fowl like duck and turkey. Also, being that it is a naturally occurring compound and thus un-patentable, drug companies are less than enthusiastic about it.
>
> I have taken Wellbutrin in the past, which caused a severe manic episode that lasted about a week and was completely terrifying, and Amytriptaline, Buspar, Celexa, xanax, valium, clozepam. Xanax was too addictive for me, although it provided the greatest measure of relief.
>
> thanks in advance for any help or information.yet more relieving information for me.
my depression has been drug caused. From an acne drug called accutane. From what I have read it seems such depression can last up to decades... it does eventually end. That is of course the worst case scenario for me for I am recently getting significantly better.
It is just more good news to me that drug enduced depression from such a drug as ecstacy goes away evntually. The same logic should be applied to my situation even though accutane creates a different type of horror.
Regarding 5-HTP. From what I have read it needs to be taken along with very specific vitamins and minerals in order for it to work. If not then it will simply create a lot of seratonin in your body but that seratonin will not cross the blood-brain barrier where it needs to be. If you are considering 5-HTP then you should really try to do some research as to which vitamins and minerals will enable it to work to it's fullest potential. take care
Posted by SalArmy4me on July 24, 2001, at 7:11:35
In reply to MDMA and depression, posted by Cylse on July 23, 2001, at 16:04:51
Psychosomatics
Volume 61(5) September/October 1999 p 712
Dietary Supplements and Natural Products as Psychotherapeutic Agents
[Special Issue: Psychopharmacology And Psychosomatic Research]
Fugh-Berman, Adriane MD; Cott, Jerry M. PhD:"5-HTP has been linked with several unusual cases of EMS-like symptoms and one convincing but unusual case of EMS in which the route of exposure was topical (and possibly respiratory) rather than oral. The recent identification of a [beta]-carboline component in all six brands tested is nevertheless worrisome; more research needs to be done to elucidate the potential risks of 5-HTP..."
Posted by Angelique on July 24, 2001, at 22:41:16
In reply to MDMA and depression, posted by Cylse on July 23, 2001, at 16:04:51
I had a friend who was bipolar and tried ectascy. He said afterwards (maybe after the high went off or later on) he got very depressed and suicidal. But at some point after that he went off all medication and seemed to be doing ok, not sure how he is now though.
I've read of prozac being done right after MDMA to prevent the extreme crashing.
There's an antihystamine called hydroxyzine (generic name) that is used for anxiety. But you shouldn't take it for more than 3 months because of possible liver damage. I found it helped with my anxiety (but maybe it was the placebo effect) when my allergist gave it to me. I've tried buspar, prozac, paxil, and klonopin and ativan for airplane rides. The allergy med Zyrtec is supposed to somewhat similar to hydroxyzine. HAs some of the same chemicals or maybe based on it or something...I know if you react bad to one (allergic to it?) you shouldn't take the other and my doc said it was good. So if you suffer from allergies maybe try that route?
Maybe prozac would help? It is what people take immediately after MDMA according to some article I read somewhere. Maybe a small dose would help.
Posted by MB on July 25, 2001, at 1:36:28
In reply to Re: MDMA and depression, posted by Angelique on July 24, 2001, at 22:41:16
The problem with MDMA is that it depletes the serotonergic neurons of serotonin, they just keep dumping it and dumping it. It attaches to the (re)uptake pump and allows it to act backwards in pumping the serotonin out of the cell and into the synapse. When the serotonin is depleted and the MDMA had detatched from the reuptake pump, there is a problem. Dopamine, which has a lower affinity for the serotonin uptake pump than serotonin, no longer has to compete with serotonin to attatch to the pump. It attatches to the pump and is brought inside the serotnergic neuron, where it is broken down by the wrong enzymes--it is broken down by the enzymes meant to break down serotonin, not dopamine, and the product is a peroxide which damages the cell. If you take the Prozac immediately after your MDMA trip, it will block the serotonin uptake pumps, and the dopamine will not be pumped into the serotonin cells. But, don't take the Prozac before or during your MDMA trip. It will bind to the serotonin uptake pump, blocking it, and the MDMA will not be able to do it's work...it will be a waste of $25.
I don't know if Prozac would help if were taken *after* the damage was done. If the post-MDMA depression were due simply to depletion, it might help. If brain damage has been done, I don't think the Prozac will help the calls regenerate. There is evidence (and hell, I can't remember the article, but a medline search should turn something up) that the cells might regenerate, but I think they will reconnect themselves differently...ah, now I remember. The abberant regeneration was seen after serotonergic cell death due to phen/fen. I don't see why it wouldn't apply to cell death from MDMA, but who really knows, aye?
Posted by Sherry on July 27, 2001, at 19:30:16
In reply to Re: MDMA and depression » Angelique, posted by MB on July 25, 2001, at 1:36:28
Hi MB,
The abberant regeneration was seen after serotonergic cell death due to phen/fen. I don't see why it wouldn't apply to cell death from MDMA, but who really knows, aye?Are you saying here that phen/fen caused brain damage on top of everything else?
Posted by Cylse on July 30, 2001, at 13:03:58
In reply to Re: MDMA and depression, posted by Sherry on July 27, 2001, at 19:30:16
The thing is that I've stopped taking ecstasy. I took it pretty regularly, about once a weekend sometimes less, no more than 2-3 doses at a time, for approx. 7/8 months.
That was about 2 years ago. Since then I've taken it exactly twice. This last time was in mid-June.
Oh, BTW, the cases of EMS were associated with batches of L-Tryptophan, which is why it's no longer available in the U.S. 5-HTP has been prescribed in Europe for at least a decade for severe cases of depression that do not respond to pharmaceuticals. They usually use the supplement along with a pharmaceutical. The substance they think is associated with EMS is sometimes called "peak-X".
I've been taking a low-therapeutic dose of 300 mg 5-HTP for the last month. It seems to be helping, I actually slept through the night for the first time in a month last night!
Posted by Cylse on July 30, 2001, at 13:37:05
In reply to MDMA and depression, posted by Cylse on July 23, 2001, at 16:04:51
I'm sorry, it was called "Peak E" (not Peak X)- from impurities in the supplements when the company tried to cut corners in the purification process, as well as tried to use a new strain of bacteria to speed up the growth of the plant that produces the seeds from which Tryptophan and 5-HTP supplements are made.
Posted by mikeydoan on September 22, 2001, at 21:06:08
In reply to Re: MDMA and depression, posted by Angelique on July 24, 2001, at 22:41:16
HI this is very important & whoever can respond you can respond here or email me (mikeydoan@hotmail.com).
This is to angelique or any1 that might know the answer to this... or any info about it....
as Angelique describes that MDMA can cause neurotoxity(damage) by dopamine going into where the serotonin goes to... My question is this, "I drank alcohol & mixed it with ecstasy bout 2 years ago, & ever since it has somehow caused neurotoxicity, the question is this- By mixing Alcohol and Ecstasy, did that cause my dopamine to go where the serotonin should go; causing damage? Or do you guyz think that it could have been another mechanism of the mix of the two drugs that caused this damage... it has changed my life & i really need to know what happened & if there is a possible way to heal the damage etc...Thank you so very much, n please reply
-Mike
Posted by AC on September 25, 2001, at 17:06:42
In reply to Re: MDMA and depression VERY IMPORTANT, posted by mikeydoan on September 22, 2001, at 21:06:08
Hate to say it but one dose of "e" unless you overdosed on it is not gonna do what you are explaining. It takes chronic use and even then most people are pretty much recoverd after 1-2 years. I know--been there. There must be another underlying problem. Anyway, 5-HTP is used to sometimes help with sertonergic dysfunction in E users.
> HI this is very important & whoever can respond you can respond here or email me (mikeydoan@hotmail.com).
> This is to angelique or any1 that might know the answer to this... or any info about it....
> as Angelique describes that MDMA can cause neurotoxity(damage) by dopamine going into where the serotonin goes to... My question is this, "I drank alcohol & mixed it with ecstasy bout 2 years ago, & ever since it has somehow caused neurotoxicity, the question is this- By mixing Alcohol and Ecstasy, did that cause my dopamine to go where the serotonin should go; causing damage? Or do you guyz think that it could have been another mechanism of the mix of the two drugs that caused this damage... it has changed my life & i really need to know what happened & if there is a possible way to heal the damage etc...
>
> Thank you so very much, n please reply
> -Mike
Posted by Cylse on September 26, 2001, at 12:35:42
In reply to Re: MDMA and depression VERY IMPORTANT, posted by AC on September 25, 2001, at 17:06:42
Yes, I would have to agree. One dose of ecstasy won't hurt you at all, although it takes about a week for your body to resume normal serotonin production.
Drinking alcohol with E is dangerous mainly because of the dehydration issue. It really, really, really dries you out, which can cause brain damage but only to a minute and repairable degree. Hell, breathing in carbon monoxide on the side of the road causes brain damage.
Posted by stjames on September 26, 2001, at 18:00:45
In reply to Re: MDMA and depression VERY IMPORTANT, posted by mikeydoan on September 22, 2001, at 21:06:08
> This is to angelique or any1 that might know the answer to this... or any info about it....
> as Angelique describes that MDMA can cause neurotoxity(damage) by dopamine going into where the serotonin goes toThe "dopamine going into serotonin" is hogwash.
MDMA has not effect on dopamine, also.
Posted by mikeydoan on September 27, 2001, at 0:36:25
In reply to Re: MDMA and depression VERY IMPORTANT, posted by AC on September 25, 2001, at 17:06:42
Well it wasn't my first time dropping "e", although i know that it wasn't chornic use that caused damage. Well here are the side effects- 1.Whenever i do something serotonin/dopamine/gaba/norephrine related theres a sting in the back of my head.. sometimes it feels like a hang over... (i have found out that its sero/dop/gaba/nore related because whenever i do the following activities it sets off that sick feeling in the back of my head- After 1.Sex 2.Drink Alcohol 3.Even if i cry too much). I've been researching on this for bout 1.5 years and know for sure that it aint all in my head.. I kno that Mixing alcohol & MDMA caused this unknown condition, & i'm still trying to find out what happened & what condition it is... So if you guyz are lost then can u point me in the right direction & tell me what i should do- Like who should i seek out for the answers i'm looking for? Well thanx for you're time...really, every bit of input help thanx guyz!
(websites, messageboards, references, anything would help)-Mike
Posted by mikeydoan on September 27, 2001, at 0:41:34
In reply to Re: MDMA and depression VERY IMPORTANT, posted by mikeydoan on September 27, 2001, at 0:36:25
read my post above. I used wrong subject ;P
Posted by Cylse on September 28, 2001, at 9:37:59
In reply to Re: MDMA and depression VERY IMPORTANT, posted by mikeydoan on September 27, 2001, at 0:36:25
Hi Mike,
Here's a good article about the overall effects of ecstasy for both incidental and longterm users:
http://www.ecstasy.org/info/karl.html
Ecstasy doesn't affect dopamine receptors. I'm in psychology, and I think I should bring up a point that a college in my research methods class mentioned.
A lot of research is devoted to the neurochemical imbalances caused by ingestion of MDMA. Little credence is given to the idea that few exposures to MDMA may lead to permanent changes in how we view ourselves, and concurrently physiological symptoms can sometimes mirror psychological rather than physical difficulties.
MDMA was documented as therapeutically valuable in the counseling community in controlled settings, such as the therapist's office, because it allowed patients who wouldn't have been able to access certain traumas (who's repressions cause neuroses, well documented although rather Freudian).
Even in the recreational setting, the effects are the same and sometimes very dramatic. This is something to consider.
If you are really concerned, consult a psychiatrist but make sure they are either hospital-affiliated or check their background because in the psychological community we lack national standards (licensing is applied for at the state level).
I suffered a lot of problems after using E, but I realize part of my depression resulted from other emotional factors. Taking E released pent-up emotions due to some terrible trauma I experienced as a child. So....check out the article, and ecstasy.org is a pretty good resource anyway. Good luck.
Posted by SLS on September 28, 2001, at 11:14:01
In reply to Re: MDMA and depression VERY IMPORTANT, posted by Cylse on September 28, 2001, at 9:37:59
Posted by geekUK on September 28, 2001, at 18:32:56
In reply to Re: MDMA and depression VERY IMPORTANT, posted by Cylse on September 28, 2001, at 9:37:59
haya,
e is bad news on a big time scale. the sad thing is you only know its big time post usage. I have noticed a decline in general mental concentration post E usage - aritmetic, gramma, vocab. sadness is hard 2 gauge tho'. most users smart enough to report have had some child trauma that fucks up the general sceintific veiw of results. I feel you ask retards or retreads (needed) when its e so no normal life veiw is possible.
leave it and forget about the drug, after all its fun, but only for a while. whatrever it did, its done cope and react.
MC
Posted by stjames on September 30, 2001, at 18:19:08
In reply to Re: MDMA and depression VERY IMPORTANT » Cylse, posted by geekUK on September 28, 2001, at 18:32:56
> haya,
> e is bad news on a big time scale. the sad thing is you only know its big time post usage.James here....
I did hundereds of doses of MDMA in the early 80's (and so did many I know) and none are showing ANY long term effects today. I am not saying it is a safe a water, but I know so many people who did so much and are fine today that my personal experence says your statements a infalmitory.
james
Posted by SLS on October 1, 2001, at 7:38:44
In reply to Re: MDMA and depression VERY IMPORTANT, posted by stjames on September 30, 2001, at 18:19:08
> > haya,
> > e is bad news on a big time scale. the sad thing is you only know its big time post usage.
>
> James here....
>
> I did hundereds of doses of MDMA in the early 80's (and so did many I know) and none are showing ANY long term effects today. I am not saying it is a safe a water, but I know so many people who did so much and are fine today that my personal experence says your statements a infalmitory.
>
> james
Is your grammar and spelling meant to be a lampoon? If not, I would rethink your argument.:-)
Only a joke!
- Scott
Posted by stjames on October 2, 2001, at 19:05:21
In reply to Re: MDMA and depression VERY IMPORTANT » stjames, posted by SLS on October 1, 2001, at 7:38:44
> > > haya,
> > > e is bad news on a big time scale. the sad thing is you only know its big time post usage.
> >
> > James here....
> >
> > I did hundereds of doses of MDMA in the early 80's (and so did many I know) and none are showing ANY long term effects today. I am not saying it is a safe a water, but I know so many people who did so much and are fine today that my personal experence says your statements a infalmitory.
> >
> > james
>
>
> Is your grammar and spelling meant to be a lampoon? If not, I would rethink your argument.
>
> :-)
>
> Only a joke!
>
>
> - ScottNo I just did not run spell check. Please remember I have an LD. That is the way I spell.
Spell check has really improved my spelling, you should of seen it before I had a computer. College was hell; back in the day I did not have a computer so term papers were hell. It sucks when you have a huge vocab, but can only spell a fraction of your working vocab. English words more than 4-5 letters are tricky for me.The upside of my LD is that I can speed read very fast. Learning German, French, and Itallian really made my spelling (in English) worse. it is so easy to spell in these langs, if you can say it you can spell it.
Do keep in mind that this is a touchy subject for me, but since it is you (SLS) you are forgiven.
james
Posted by Phil on October 2, 2001, at 20:11:35
In reply to Re: MDMA and depression VERY IMPORTANT, posted by stjames on October 2, 2001, at 19:05:21
Phew...that went well. Let's move on, shall we?
Phil
Posted by SLS on October 3, 2001, at 10:27:05
In reply to Re: MDMA and depression VERY IMPORTANT, posted by stjames on October 2, 2001, at 19:05:21
> > > > haya,
> > > > e is bad news on a big time scale. the sad thing is you only know its big time post usage.
> > >
> > > James here....
> > >
> > > I did hundereds of doses of MDMA in the early 80's (and so did many I know) and none are showing ANY long term effects today. I am not saying it is a safe a water, but I know so many people who did so much and are fine today that my personal experence says your statements a infalmitory.
> > >
> > > james
> >
> >
> > Is your grammar and spelling meant to be a lampoon? If not, I would rethink your argument.
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > Only a joke!
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> No I just did not run spell check. Please remember I have an LD. That is the way I spell.
> Spell check has really improved my spelling, you should of seen it before I had a computer. College was hell; back in the day I did not have a computer so term papers were hell. It sucks when you have a huge vocab, but can only spell a fraction of your working vocab. English words more than 4-5 letters are tricky for me.
>
> The upside of my LD is that I can speed read very fast. Learning German, French, and Itallian really made my spelling (in English) worse. it is so easy to spell in these langs, if you can say it you can spell it.
>
> Do keep in mind that this is a touchy subject for me, but since it is you (SLS) you are forgiven.
>
> james
Dear James,I'm really sorry. I am grateful to be forgiven.
I'm glad you felt comfortable enough to explain this to me. I'm sure it will only enhance our communication in the future.
I wish I could speed read! I can't seem to get my gear out of reverse.
Have a nice day.
:-)
Sincerely,
Scott
Posted by SLS on October 3, 2001, at 10:36:17
In reply to Re: SLS-stjames. , posted by Phil on October 2, 2001, at 20:11:35
> Phew...that went well. Let's move on, shall we?
>
> Phil
Dear Phil,I'm guessing that James understood the affection behind my intended humor. I had no previous knowledge of his circumstances, despite my hanging-out here for two years. Maybe I just wasn't observant enough. Anyway, my respect and admiration for him have grown considerably.
- Scott
Posted by Phil on October 3, 2001, at 17:55:50
In reply to Re: SLS-stjames. » Phil, posted by SLS on October 3, 2001, at 10:36:17
I have always respected both of you guys considerably. stjames is an amazing guy. I don't think I've ever seen a wrong post from him and he's been on the board forever and has not changed his style at all.
His stature has risen with me, too, with the way he communicated in his post.
I don't know about you Scott but I think hangin with James for a day would be a trip. Wonder if he gives incredibly sharp, succinct, verbal answers like the written ones?
Fill us in if you're reading James.Phil
Posted by Cylse on October 5, 2001, at 8:58:24
In reply to Re: MDMA and depression VERY IMPORTANT » Cylse, posted by geekUK on September 28, 2001, at 18:32:56
I hadn't noticed any real decrease in cognitive ability. As the above cited paper indicated, most E users are also daily or near-daily cannabis smokers and I am no exception to the rule, which confound any statistical analyses just as much as childhood abuse, or any prior psychological trauma, confounds stats.
I am still relatively successful in my chosen field of study and my brain, if anything, seems ot have shot into overdrive. I seem to take in too much stimuli, or perhaps it is too difficult to process, and I have a running stream-of- conscious monolouge going through my head pretty much 24 hours a day, which makes sleep a difficult prospect.
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