![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 60. Go back in thread:
Posted by PatJ. on January 28, 2001, at 16:53:45
In reply to Re: please be civil » dennis, posted by Dr. Bob on January 28, 2001, at 9:55:16
> > You are typical anti-drug person who doesnt know what hes talking about
>
> What is it with this thread? Please be civil, or I'll have to block you. Thanks,
>
> Bob
>
> PS: Follow-ups, if any, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Dear Dr. Bob,
Thank you. Pat
Posted by stjames on January 28, 2001, at 22:11:36
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by maribeth on January 28, 2001, at 13:35:22
> James, thank you first for providing some much needed insight. Thanks to you also Dr. Bob
> I am leaving this comment in this thread as I THINK is fits. As I have shared before
> I work in a dual diagnosis client environment. Further up the postings there was some discussion
> as to which "mind altering chemicals" Charles Manson might have under
> at the time of the Tate/Labianca murders. Was it the drugs or was his behavior impaired due
> to his mental status? I have read quite a bit and heard a speaker or two
> wax knowledegable on this topic and I will gladly share print outs and info. However,I
> think the rather "bottom line" thinking is that Manson was/is your basic dualer.
> Probably popped hallucniogens like M&M and had a fairly long standing mental illness
> (read "crazy as a loon!) This is what keeps us in business. Maribeth
>james here....
i would agree with you. I see his drug use as a sympyom of his crazyness and this use no doubt made him much worse.
james
Posted by Rzip on January 28, 2001, at 23:19:03
In reply to Re:Celexa and Ecstasy-No myth but denial, posted by dennis on January 27, 2001, at 21:13:08
Dennis,
The DSM-IV defines substance abuse mainly on socially unacceptable usage and continuous usage despite obvious consequences. So, if you still choose to continue the illegal drug intake despite (or because) of the societal violation; then I would kindly suggest that you take an insightful look at why you are doing this.
Here is the way I see it, if you continue the substance abuse, you will become (or are) dependent upon it. The DSM-IV defines drug dependence mainly upon the criteria that one spends a great deal of time obtaining the drug; and one can not quit despite the wish to do so (hence: the dependence labelling). So, that is the chemical dependence pathway that you are heading toward.
I am however writing more out of concern for the psychological aspect of your actions. The same criteria that defines Substance Abuse also carry weight in the underlying psychological reasoning for your actions. So the question I would ask of you is why do you feel the need to go against society and its rules and regulations.
Personally, I do not like to mingle totally into societal scenes either. I am very unconvential and I am very proud of it. I love attention. But I don't abuse chemical substances because those are very agonizing ways to self-destruct. I do not even use Nutrasweet because it is an artifical chemical: Aspirtame (sp?). So, I am just suggesting that perhaps you can think of better and more legal ways to call attention to yourself in the current societal mass?
- Rzip
Posted by dennis on January 28, 2001, at 23:58:52
In reply to Use despite legal consequences; (DSM-IV) » dennis, posted by Rzip on January 28, 2001, at 23:19:03
"agonizing ways to self-destruct, call attention to yourself in the current societal mass, abuse chemical substances, Substance Abuse, go against society and its rules and regulations"
Give me a break!
Posted by Rzip on January 29, 2001, at 1:33:53
In reply to Re: Use despite legal consequences; (DSM-IV), posted by dennis on January 28, 2001, at 23:58:52
> "agonizing ways to self-destruct, call attention to yourself in the current societal mass, abuse chemical substances, Substance Abuse, go against society and its rules and regulations"
>
> Give me a break!First of all, you took my post completely out of context and then you put it in quotes?!? That's wrong.
Second, this is not an unbounded e-mail exchange service. There is a supportive and civility element to the purpose of this site.
Bottom-line, I did not write that e-mail for it to be thrown back a me, in such random context.
Perhaps I am just tired, but I just did not feel like biting my tongue on this once again. In the past, I have selected to just ignore and forgive those who have not been very "helpful" in their replies.
- Rzip
Posted by Rzip on January 29, 2001, at 1:47:09
In reply to Re: Use despite legal consequences; (DSM-IV), posted by dennis on January 28, 2001, at 23:58:52
You know what Dennis, I am going to apologize for posting mainly because it was stupid of me to do so. A quarter of the reasoning for posting was probably due to personal reasons (I just wanted to show-off new knowledge/understanding or something). The other three-quarters were well-intended. But since you do not see it that way, I am sorry that I posted.
I am not doing well tonight. Too lonely and gullible. Ah! Tomorrow will be a new day. The weekend went way too fast.
Posted by dennis on January 29, 2001, at 2:25:14
In reply to Re: Use despite legal consequences; (DSM-IV) » dennis, posted by Rzip on January 29, 2001, at 1:47:09
You are right, after reviewing my post I agree it was wrong for me to do that and I am sorry. You just dont seem to get it, and it upsets me, you say substance abuse, this is not substance abuse, this is light marijuana use, all illegal drugs are not the same, I do not use other illegal drugs and I discourage there use, but maybe your right, maybe Im just a drug addict and dont know it yet because Im in denile, I dont feel like a drug addict, but I guess I could be, and I have really done a lot of research on pot and I dont think its harmful, but I guess I could be wrong, I dont know, I really dont know anything for sure, Im just some stoner who believes what hes doing is just fine, but like I say I could be wrong. Sorry for posting that though your right that was pretty fucked up and I appologize, I am gonna have to stop coming to this board for awhile or something because Im making all sorts of trouble now.
Posted by dennis on January 29, 2001, at 2:52:41
In reply to Re: Use despite legal consequences; (DSM-IV) » dennis, posted by Rzip on January 29, 2001, at 1:33:53
yes, that was very uncivil of me, that was downright nasty even, your absolutely right, we must be civil when we speak to each other and I was not, I can see how my post would upset you, I guess I was not thinking at the time, I assure you I will be civil in the future, or I will say nothing at all.
Posted by dennis on January 29, 2001, at 22:09:04
In reply to Re: Use despite legal consequences; (DSM-IV), posted by dennis on January 29, 2001, at 2:52:41
I am really very sorry. I guess I never thought about it enough to realize that being civil is very important. I hope you will accept my apology.
Posted by Rzip on January 29, 2001, at 22:45:14
In reply to Re: So do you forgive me?, posted by dennis on January 29, 2001, at 22:09:04
:-) Take the time to reflect and think critically about your situation. Through the mist of cloudiness, you will come realize the next step to take. Only then, will you realize that professional help is just around the corner.
Good luck.
- Rzip
Posted by AlexKnowsAll on February 28, 2001, at 16:43:51
In reply to Re:Celexa and Ecstasy-forget the pot, too, posted by PatJ. on January 23, 2001, at 17:46:26
> > SSRIs such as celexa will make ecstacy not work as good. Let me make a suggestion though, dont do mdma at all! MDMA will cause permanent brain damage, it will basicly burn off your nerve endings for your seritonin system which will leave you with anxiety and depression for the rest of your life, if you have to do drugs stick with good old harmless marijuana, but dont ever do ecstacy, that is my advise and if your wise you will take it, if your not wise then your brain will get burned and you will suffer the consequences.
>
> *****
> Harmless marijuana? I think not. It causes reproductive problems and lung cancer for 2 things.
******Why are you guys such idiots! MDMA if used in normal doses....which vary from person to person is NOT lethal! OVer the years ecstasy has been associated with lots of deaths, but responsible for far fewer (in the likes of 12) Also if used in normal doses the seratonin will return to normal levels! I am a user of ecstasy and a former user of pot.....that is until studies showed that pot is responsible for more panic/anxiety disorder that ANY other recreational drug! I use ecstasy about twice a year and promote what I feel and think to my everyday life and it has helped me battle and recover from the panic/anxiety disorder that pot caused! And if I wanted to see your debate about how harmless weed is, I would expect you to prmote the illegalization of cigs and alcohol! Look at the death rates! They just dont compare! People in here need help with certain issues and people like you and Kazoo make it extremely hard to find! I searched for many of the same questions asking expert after expert only to find them say........My parents taught me that drugs are bad and I cant give you any advice whatsoever! All i got was dont do E......well people who research E and can control themselves doing it only a few times a year...well they know its not LETHAL and wont cause BRAIN DAMAGE! So there is no reason to stop being an individual and enjoying ourselves while we are slaving over full time jobs so the govt can use our money to tell use we are wrong! (when more times than not we are NOT) If anyone would like to know any answeres I would suggest ecstasy.org, dancesafe.org, and erowid.com.....they can help to answer many of your questions! We as humans should educate instead of letting people die when all it takes is 5 minutes to let them know how to prevent it! Drink gatorade...not water!, take CoEnzyme Q 10 (60mg), .5gm Inositol, 3.5gm I-orthine alpha ketglutarate, 2gm time released panththenic acid an hour or two before you drop and it will help a lot to balance the negative sides of E. If you choose to smoke cigs.....god rest your lost soul! ;-) But its not anyone elses choice but your own and we respect it! Be safe!
Posted by AlexKnowsAll on February 28, 2001, at 16:53:49
In reply to Re:Celexa and Ecstasy(MDMA)**Da Capo » KissDemon, posted by kazoo on January 24, 2001, at 2:52:08
> > A message to Kazoo. I came here seeking information not a lecture nor an uneducated one at that. I am well aware of the effects of ecstasy however you reply did not educate on any new information in regards to my question. I do not ry to put people down especially when they are asking for help I would hope on a board like this the same could be said of all people. Apparently some of us would rather judge than help.
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> I apologize for my harsh message, and regrettably you misinterpreted my intention. Apparently "shock value" has little to no meaning to those who are just too smart, and hip, to comprehend the historical value of a hideous event directly linked to your inquiry. I was not judgmental, contrary to what you say, and, if anything, did you a favor by exposing the direct relationship between a specific violent event and that cheap-thrill drug you so genuinely defend.
>
> I am not in the position to offend your sensibility regarding how you (and others) abuse their brain. The fact that you find this need to take MDMA indicates to me the presence of a deeper, more serious underlying problem that can hardly be addressed, or helped, with CELEXA.
>
> You may interpret, or misinterpret (which ever the case may be) these timely words, because, quite frankly, it falls on deaf ears anyway, so why do I bother in the first place? I know a losing situation when confronted with one.
>
> It's your brain ... you only have one ... try to respect it.
>
> You may rest assured, however, that I will not respond to this genre of posting in the future.
>
> k
******Who said anything about a need! Its like any other thing in life.......do you have a need to go skiing? Hell no, but its fun! Do you have a need to go skydiving? Look how many people die a year skydiving compared to E! Its us....humans.....doing what we like to do! If your going to say that the reason manson killed her is because he was on E is obviously an understatemnt on your part! Wait didnt manson kill other people too? Im not positive, but I dont think she was the first! hmmm.....couldnt have been because he was phsycho....prolly because of a drug that makes lets be who you want to be with NO fear of being that person! So obviously there was something there in the first place! And I dont know if you ever noticed but the govt lies abotu drugs with its reports! Ex....in my area.....Central Florida reported 247 deaths in 1999 from club drugs.....well the Orlando Sentinel studied it and found they were listing a 58 year old man who died of a heart attack, a 75 year old man who commited suicide who was battling cancer! When questioned the govt replied....why are you arguing instead of helping us stop people from taking drugs! Rediculous! your generation and those you have taught are so close minded it makes me sick! Oh yeah and that death total was I think 14 and 1 E related death due to not staying cool and drinking gatorade. The others were from alcohol and drugs being mixed.....oh and another point....from the 14 deaths that were balmed on club drugs.....14 of them were drugs being mixed. So people get educated, its my only advice...make your own deciscions!
Posted by AlexKnowsAll on February 28, 2001, at 17:05:45
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by maribeth on January 28, 2001, at 13:35:22
> > > You are typical anti-drug person who doesnt know what hes talking about
> >
> > What is it with this thread? Please be civil, or I'll have to block you. Thanks,
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > PS: Follow-ups, if any, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
>
>
> James, thank you first for providing some much needed insight. Thanks to you also Dr. Bob
> I am leaving this comment in this thread as I THINK is fits. As I have shared before
> I work in a dual diagnosis client environment. Further up the postings there was some discussion
> as to which "mind altering chemicals" Charles Manson might have under
> at the time of the Tate/Labianca murders. Was it the drugs or was his behavior impaired due
> to his mental status? I have read quite a bit and heard a speaker or two
> wax knowledegable on this topic and I will gladly share print outs and info. However,I
> think the rather "bottom line" thinking is that Manson was/is your basic dualer.
> Probably popped hallucniogens like M&M and had a fairly long standing mental illness
> (read "crazy as a loon!) This is what keeps us in business. Maribeth
>
****
if your going to label M&M as anything dont lable it as a halluniogen! I dont know of anyone that has been mind altered enough to do anything of the sorts! If you know anyone who has let me know! And on top of that let me see prof it wasnt mixed with LSD! And nowhere have I seen ANYTHING regarding Manson and Ecstasy! All I see is bad drugs!
Posted by klubkid on April 22, 2001, at 0:01:22
In reply to Celexa and Ecstasy(MDMA), posted by KissDemon on January 21, 2001, at 23:02:23
> I was recently percribed Celexa and was wondering about how it interacts with Ecstasy. I have taken Ecstasy a few times (4 in the past year) and do not want to stop. I also wondering if there is a different anti-depressant that will interact better with Ecstasy. Thanks
So, what will happen if I take E while I am taking Celexa? Please no lectures or sarcastic remarks. I just want to know what will happen?
Posted by mikes on April 22, 2001, at 21:03:01
In reply to Re: Celexa and Ecstasy(MDMA)...so what's the verdi » KissDemon, posted by klubkid on April 22, 2001, at 0:01:22
Okay, I'll tell you. The Celexa will most likely block the effects of the ecstasy. Abstain from taking Celexa for 5 half lives (not sure how long this is) before the roll to get good effects. If you're worried about WD symptoms, start tapering off 10-15 half lives before and hopefully the WD effects will be minimal.
5-6 hours after you take the Ecstasy, take a Celexa. It may prevent neurotoxicity.
After that, keep taking Celexa like you would usually.
As for everyone else who may read this post- I went to a rave last night. The way these parties are demonized is absolutely ridiculous. It's just a bunch of kids having fun. As for the ecstasy use, can anyone show me any evidence that links ecstasy use to depression? Not theoretical bullshit. Actual studies, or large bodies of anecdotal evidence, that correlate use with depression.
I think it's important that negative effects of drugs should be looked at outside of the scientific and medical contexts. We need to ask questions like, "Are ecstasy users less happy in general than people who have never touched the drug?" I don't know for sure, but I would guess that their quality of life is similar.
> > I was recently percribed Celexa and was wondering about how it interacts with Ecstasy. I have taken Ecstasy a few times (4 in the past year) and do not want to stop. I also wondering if there is a different anti-depressant that will interact better with Ecstasy. Thanks
>
> So, what will happen if I take E while I am taking Celexa? Please no lectures or sarcastic remarks. I just want to know what will happen?
Posted by SalArmy4me on April 23, 2001, at 0:50:00
In reply to Re: Celexa and Ecstasy(MDMA)...so what's the verdi, posted by mikes on April 22, 2001, at 21:03:01
1: Bailly D. Related Articles
[Neuropsychiatric disorders induced by MDMA ("Ecstasy")].
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Ecstasy and serotonin depletion.
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Ned Tijdschr Geneeskd. 1998 Aug 29;142(35):1942-6. Review. Dutch.
PMID: 9856185 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]4: Gerra G, Zaimovic A, Giucastro G, Maestri D, Monica C, Sartori R, Caccavari R, Delsignore R. Related Articles
Serotonergic function altered after (+/-)3,4-methylene-dioxymethamphetamine ('Ecstasy') in humans.
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[Ecstasy--long-lasting effects]?
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7. Norwegian.
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MDMA ('ecstasy') consumption in the context of polydrug abuse: a report on 150 patients.
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Ecstasy (MDMA) effects upon mood and cognition: before, during and after a Saturday night dance.
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PMID: 9784083 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]8: Zhou FC, Tao-Cheng JH, Segu L, Patel T, Wang Y. Related Articles
Serotonin transporters affected by MDMA are located on the axons beyond the synaptic junctions: anatomical and functional evidence.
Brain Res. 1998 Sep 14;805(1-2):241-54.
PMID: 9733975 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]9: Curran HV, Travill RA. Related Articles
Mood and cognitive effects of +/-3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, 'ecstasy'): week-end 'high' followed by mid-week low.
Addiction. 1997 Jul;92(7):821-31.
PMID: 9293041 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]10: Yau JL, Noble J, Seckl JR. Related Articles
Site-specific regulation of corticosteroid and serotonin receptor subtype gene expression in the rat hippocampus following 3,4-MDMA: role of corticosterone and serotonin.
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PMID: 9135093 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]11: Miller RT, Lau SS, Monks TJ.
2,5-Bis-(glutathion-S-yl)-alpha-methyldopamine, a putative metabolite of (+/-)-3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDMA), decreases brain serotonin concentrations.
Eur J Pharmacol. 1997 Apr 4;323(2-3):173-80.
PMID: 9128836 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]12: White SR, Obradovic T, Imel KM, Wheaton MJ. Related Articles
The effects of methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, "Ecstasy") on monoaminergic neurotransmission in the central nervous system.
Prog Neurobiol. 1996 Aug;49(5):455-79. Review.
PMID: 8895996 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]13: Immunomodulating activity of MDMA
Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2000;914:215-24.
PMID: 11085323 [PubMed}14: Pacifici R, Zuccaro P, Shannon, M.
Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, "Ecstasy").
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PMID: 11063374 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]15: Nielsen JC, Nicholson K, Pitzner-Jorgensen BL, Unden M. Related Articles
[Abuse of Ecstasy (3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine). Pharmacological, neuropsychiatric and behavioral aspects].
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PMID: 7701630 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]16: McGuire PK, Cope H, Fahy TA.
Diversity of psychopathology associated with use of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine ('Ecstasy')
Br J Psychiatry. 1994 Sep;165(3):391-5.
PMID: 7994514 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]17: Riedlinger TJ, Riedlinger JE.
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J Psychoactive Drugs. 1994 Jan-Mar;26(1):41-55. Review.
PMID: 7913128 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]18: Peroutka SJ, Newman H, Harris H.
Subjective effects of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine in recreational users. Neuropsychopharmacology. 1988 Dec;1(4):273-7. PMID: 2908020 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]19: Schmidt CJ, Taylor VL. Related Articles
Depression of rat brain tryptophan hydroxylase activity following the acute administration of methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA).
Biochem Pharmacol. 1987 Dec 1;36(23):4095-102.
PMID: 2891359 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]20: Steele TD, Nichols DE, Yim GK. Related Articles
Stereochemical effects of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) and related amphetamine derivatives on inhibition of uptake of [3H]monoamines into synaptosomes from different regions of rat brain.
Biochem Pharmacol. 1987 Jul 15;36(14):2297-303.
PMID: 2886126 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]21: Frith CH, Chang LW, Lattin DL, Walls RC, Hamm J, Doblin R.
Toxicity of methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) in the dog and the rat.
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The effects of amphetamine-like designer drugs on monoaminergic systems in the brain.
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The effects of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) and 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA) on monoaminergic systems in the rat brain.
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Human neurotoxicity of MDMA ('Ecstasy'): subjective self-reports, evidence from an Italian drug addiction centre and clinical case studies.
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Posted by SLS on April 23, 2001, at 11:31:08
In reply to Re: Celexa and Ecstasy(MDMA)...so what's the verdi, posted by mikes on April 22, 2001, at 21:03:01
Hi Mike.
I'm sure you expected this, so here we go... :-)
> As for everyone else who may read this post- I went to a rave last night. The way these parties are demonized is absolutely ridiculous. It's just a bunch of kids having fun. As for the ecstasy use, can anyone show me any evidence that links ecstasy use to depression? Not theoretical bullshit. Actual studies, or large bodies of anecdotal evidence, that correlate use with depression.
Again with the "bullshit"? I find that using such an expletitive is a bit counterproductive when trying to establish a credible opinion in a forum like this. I am probably guilty of doing the same thing myself from time to time.
> I think it's important that negative effects of drugs should be looked at outside of the scientific and medical contexts. We need to ask questions like, "Are ecstasy users less happy in general than people who have never touched the drug?" I don't know for sure, but I would guess that their quality of life is similar.
Perhaps you should set out to answer your questions methodologically instead of offering a "guess". I don't think a guess is appropriate given the magnitude of the consequences should it be wrong. In addition, just because someone judges that a substance that makes them feel good is good for them doesn't mean that it is. My "guess" is that most people could create a list of substances that fit into this category.
I am not sure that within the body of medical and neuroscience literature you will find evidence sufficient for you to give credence to the contention that there are adverse effects, both temporary and permanent, associated with MDMA use. However, for me, in light of the following citations, I find it difficult to ignore this possibility. It would seem difficult to demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that such adverse effects do not occur, and that we can all take MDMA without hurting ourselves. I don't know. Perhaps you can demonstrate that we can.
Although I see that someone else has already taken the time to put together a list of citations, my emotional self won't justify my not posting this as I have already invested the time in putting it together.
This was real simple to do...
It is a Medline search using the format: "depression" AND (MDMA OR methylenedioxymethamphetamine)
Please note that the result of this search does not address neurotoxicity and brain damage. The results of such a search produce seven times as many citations, for what it's worth.
For anyone who is not familiar with retrieving the full abstract display on Medline, I posted it at:
http://home.att.net/~sl.schofield/special/miscellaneous/mdma.html
You will find that some abstracts make it clear that, despite their results being consistent with MDMA adverse effects, an absolute conclusion of causation could not be determined through their study design. That's pretty good science. You might be able to find a few studies that refute entirely the findings of the many others. There is no selectivity for which studies are displayed as a result of the search. Many of these studies introduce statements characterizing the MDMA adverse properties as being putative, reflecting the findings of previous investigations. The full text would produce in their bibliography those citations upon which their statements are based. You will find that some of the studies found in the Medline results are actually dedicated to a review of the science literature and previous reports. These types of investigations often serve well to describe and summarize the history, volume, and depth of study of a particular question or issue, and display a trend or consensus to be found in their results.
The point of my posting is that I believe that any comprehensive presentation of MDMA should include a focused review of the scientific literature, no matter how bogus it may be. Anything short of that is, in my estimation, irresponsible.
I hope this helps to promote an informed dialogue. I am not very interested to get involved any further than I have here. I do not have a vested interested in the answers to these questions.
- Scott
Posted by mikes on April 24, 2001, at 12:25:25
In reply to Re: Celexa and Ecstasy(MDMA)...so what's the verdi » mikes, posted by SLS on April 23, 2001, at 11:31:08
I don't care! In a psychiatric-type forum you're going to have agressive and irritable people that use profanity. Furthermore, I'd rather people make their own decisions and do their own research instead of relying on my credibility.
Those references don't prove anything. All of the major neurotoxicity studies tested participants for depression and found little or none compared to controls. However, supposing all of the studies did show depression, they can't show that MDMA caused it. Don't you think a depressed person would be more attracted to MDMA and drug use in general? I know I was.
Finally, taking an SSRI 6 hours after MDMA can probably prevent many of these problems.
> Hi Mike.
>
> I'm sure you expected this, so here we go... :-)
>
> > As for everyone else who may read this post- I went to a rave last night. The way these parties are demonized is absolutely ridiculous. It's just a bunch of kids having fun. As for the ecstasy use, can anyone show me any evidence that links ecstasy use to depression? Not theoretical bullshit. Actual studies, or large bodies of anecdotal evidence, that correlate use with depression.
>
> Again with the "bullshit"? I find that using such an expletitive is a bit counterproductive when trying to establish a credible opinion in a forum like this. I am probably guilty of doing the same thing myself from time to time.
>
> > I think it's important that negative effects of drugs should be looked at outside of the scientific and medical contexts. We need to ask questions like, "Are ecstasy users less happy in general than people who have never touched the drug?" I don't know for sure, but I would guess that their quality of life is similar.
>
> Perhaps you should set out to answer your questions methodologically instead of offering a "guess". I don't think a guess is appropriate given the magnitude of the consequences should it be wrong. In addition, just because someone judges that a substance that makes them feel good is good for them doesn't mean that it is. My "guess" is that most people could create a list of substances that fit into this category.
>
> I am not sure that within the body of medical and neuroscience literature you will find evidence sufficient for you to give credence to the contention that there are adverse effects, both temporary and permanent, associated with MDMA use. However, for me, in light of the following citations, I find it difficult to ignore this possibility. It would seem difficult to demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that such adverse effects do not occur, and that we can all take MDMA without hurting ourselves. I don't know. Perhaps you can demonstrate that we can.
>
> Although I see that someone else has already taken the time to put together a list of citations, my emotional self won't justify my not posting this as I have already invested the time in putting it together.
>
> This was real simple to do...
>
> It is a Medline search using the format: "depression" AND (MDMA OR methylenedioxymethamphetamine)
>
> Please note that the result of this search does not address neurotoxicity and brain damage. The results of such a search produce seven times as many citations, for what it's worth.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?term=depression+AND+%28MDMA+OR+methylenedioxymethamphetamine%29&Label=PubMed+Search&cmd=Search&db=PubMed
>
> For anyone who is not familiar with retrieving the full abstract display on Medline, I posted it at:
>
> http://home.att.net/~sl.schofield/special/miscellaneous/mdma.html
>
> You will find that some abstracts make it clear that, despite their results being consistent with MDMA adverse effects, an absolute conclusion of causation could not be determined through their study design. That's pretty good science. You might be able to find a few studies that refute entirely the findings of the many others. There is no selectivity for which studies are displayed as a result of the search. Many of these studies introduce statements characterizing the MDMA adverse properties as being putative, reflecting the findings of previous investigations. The full text would produce in their bibliography those citations upon which their statements are based. You will find that some of the studies found in the Medline results are actually dedicated to a review of the science literature and previous reports. These types of investigations often serve well to describe and summarize the history, volume, and depth of study of a particular question or issue, and display a trend or consensus to be found in their results.
>
> The point of my posting is that I believe that any comprehensive presentation of MDMA should include a focused review of the scientific literature, no matter how bogus it may be. Anything short of that is, in my estimation, irresponsible.
>
> I hope this helps to promote an informed dialogue. I am not very interested to get involved any further than I have here. I do not have a vested interested in the answers to these questions.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by niche on May 5, 2004, at 1:36:32
In reply to Celexa and Ecstasy(MDMA), posted by KissDemon on January 21, 2001, at 23:02:23
Why does something that feels so good have to be soooooo.. bad? I've struggled with depression on and off most of my life. I discovered e at age 29, 3 years ago and it was HEAVEN. I did it for 2 years. Every weekend that started on Fri and ended on Sun.I held back when I developed a chest pain that would NOT go away, last year. I went back and did it like 9 times this year. Here's the bad news. I have uncontrollable anxiety and am having what feels like a continuous panic attack. Chronic chest pain. Everything gets to me and It's hard to function. I have what they call "derealization" & sometimes I think I'm losing my sanity. I was put on Celexa today. Haven't started it yet. BUT it is SICK..very very sick the fact that I'm already trying to think when I'm going to be well enough to do e again.I miss it already.The scary part is I don't know how much damage my brain underwent already or how long it will take to fix it.If ever. Here's my advice: IT IS NOT WORTH IT! There's so much to life that you don't want to miss on. HOW THE HELL DID I GET MYSELF INTO THAT????
I am an intelligent female MBA graduate who never did other drugs, do not like alcohol and never will..but this shit got me. It is that good..er..bad..whatever.
I WISH I CAN HAVE FUN THE WAY I USED TO BRFORE E! IT WILL NEVER BE THE SAME & IT IS NOT WORTH IT!!!
Control it IF you can. If not, seek professional help. The stuff is addictive and it is very damaging. Get someone to prevent you from doing it. I've read so many postings before of people wanting to stop SSRIs to feel the E! If this is not heart-wrenching, what is?
Posted by chemist on May 5, 2004, at 1:50:50
In reply to Re: Celexa and Ecstasy(MDMA) » KissDemon, posted by niche on May 5, 2004, at 1:36:32
> Why does something that feels so good have to be soooooo.. bad? I've struggled with depression on and off most of my life. I discovered e at age 29, 3 years ago and it was HEAVEN. I did it for 2 years. Every weekend that started on Fri and ended on Sun.I held back when I developed a chest pain that would NOT go away, last year. I went back and did it like 9 times this year. Here's the bad news. I have uncontrollable anxiety and am having what feels like a continuous panic attack. Chronic chest pain. Everything gets to me and It's hard to function. I have what they call "derealization" & sometimes I think I'm losing my sanity. I was put on Celexa today. Haven't started it yet. BUT it is SICK..very very sick the fact that I'm already trying to think when I'm going to be well enough to do e again.I miss it already.The scary part is I don't know how much damage my brain underwent already or how long it will take to fix it.If ever. Here's my advice: IT IS NOT WORTH IT! There's so much to life that you don't want to miss on. HOW THE HELL DID I GET MYSELF INTO THAT????
> I am an intelligent female MBA graduate who never did other drugs, do not like alcohol and never will..but this shit got me. It is that good..er..bad..whatever.
> I WISH I CAN HAVE FUN THE WAY I USED TO BRFORE E! IT WILL NEVER BE THE SAME & IT IS NOT WORTH IT!!!
> Control it IF you can. If not, seek professional help. The stuff is addictive and it is very damaging. Get someone to prevent you from doing it. I've read so many postings before of people wanting to stop SSRIs to feel the E! If this is not heart-wrenching, what is?i agree with your stance....MDMA was used theraputically from the early 1920's until about 1960. there is a trial going on as we speak (out of florida) for reevaluating therapy while the patient is under the spell of MDMA. the problem lies - not in my opinion, but in fact - that your MDMA is not properly synthesized (since criminalization in 1985) and as such, you are getting a mixed-bag of goods unless you know how to either manufacture MDMA at pharmaceutical-grade levels or can reliably test for impurites (ususally methamphetamine). i have promised dr. bob that i will not delve into the details of syntheses of illicit compounds, but this warrants mentioning: you might very well have been taking large doses of methamphetamine with MDMA, which might be a clue to your current situation. more later, and please welcome my best wishes, chemist
Posted by djmmm on May 5, 2004, at 13:23:49
In reply to Re: Celexa and Ecstasy(MDMA) » niche, posted by chemist on May 5, 2004, at 1:50:50
> > Why does something that feels so good have to be soooooo.. bad? I've struggled with depression on and off most of my life. I discovered e at age 29, 3 years ago and it was HEAVEN. I did it for 2 years. Every weekend that started on Fri and ended on Sun.I held back when I developed a chest pain that would NOT go away, last year. I went back and did it like 9 times this year. Here's the bad news. I have uncontrollable anxiety and am having what feels like a continuous panic attack. Chronic chest pain. Everything gets to me and It's hard to function. I have what they call "derealization" & sometimes I think I'm losing my sanity. I was put on Celexa today. Haven't started it yet. BUT it is SICK..very very sick the fact that I'm already trying to think when I'm going to be well enough to do e again.I miss it already.The scary part is I don't know how much damage my brain underwent already or how long it will take to fix it.If ever. Here's my advice: IT IS NOT WORTH IT! There's so much to life that you don't want to miss on. HOW THE HELL DID I GET MYSELF INTO THAT????
> > I am an intelligent female MBA graduate who never did other drugs, do not like alcohol and never will..but this shit got me. It is that good..er..bad..whatever.
> > I WISH I CAN HAVE FUN THE WAY I USED TO BRFORE E! IT WILL NEVER BE THE SAME & IT IS NOT WORTH IT!!!
> > Control it IF you can. If not, seek professional help. The stuff is addictive and it is very damaging. Get someone to prevent you from doing it. I've read so many postings before of people wanting to stop SSRIs to feel the E! If this is not heart-wrenching, what is?
>
> i agree with your stance....MDMA was used theraputically from the early 1920's until about 1960. there is a trial going on as we speak (out of florida) for reevaluating therapy while the patient is under the spell of MDMA. the problem lies - not in my opinion, but in fact - that your MDMA is not properly synthesized (since criminalization in 1985) and as such, you are getting a mixed-bag of goods unless you know how to either manufacture MDMA at pharmaceutical-grade levels or can reliably test for impurites (ususally methamphetamine). i have promised dr. bob that i will not delve into the details of syntheses of illicit compounds, but this warrants mentioning: you might very well have been taking large doses of methamphetamine with MDMA, which might be a clue to your current situation. more later, and please welcome my best wishes, chemistVery true.. take a look at some of the adulterants: http://www.dancesafe.org/labtesting/
I was surprised to read that the vast majority of Ecstasy tested contained mostly *caffeine* Yet Most of the tested pills DID contain various amounts of MDMA and and other closely related ring substituted amphetamines (MDA, MDE).
I guess (all things being relative) we should be pleased that adulterants like DXM (which potentiates neurotoxicity) are not as prevalent... Although the piperazine derivatives TFMPP and BZP have been popping up in Ecstacy pills. There is even one pill that contains *heroin* *Prozac* and *asprin* (?!)
Posted by Sebastian on May 5, 2004, at 15:07:33
In reply to Re: Celexa and Ecstasy(MDMA) » niche, posted by chemist on May 5, 2004, at 1:50:50
I've tried many different kinds of e. They all do the same thing, make you anxious, can't sleep, feel stupid. The things that make them different or addictive. What ever they put in it other than e. Like heroin or meth. That kind of e is yes very addictive. I almost ODed on some heroin e, would have if they didn't cut me off. The next day was hell, blindness, can't use bathroom, can't do anything. That was the end of it, two weeks later I broke out in a red bumps. So e is not addictive. Just everything else in it is addictive. Yes e will make your brain dumb for days, weeks. You will get over it if your brain can make it that long without functioning. I had a freind who was in a coma for days after useing e. The brain dumbness is definitly from the e, and it takes a long scary time to get over it.
I don't know if SSRI's are different, but I had no problems feeling the full effects of e when I was taking zyprexa.
Posted by psychosage on May 5, 2004, at 22:16:50
In reply to Re: Celexa and Ecstasy(MDMA) » KissDemon, posted by niche on May 5, 2004, at 1:36:32
> Why does something that feels so good have to be soooooo.. bad? I've struggled with depression on and off most of my life. I discovered e at age 29, 3 years ago and it was HEAVEN. I did it for 2 years. Every weekend that started on Fri and ended on Sun.I held back when I developed a chest pain that would NOT go away, last year. I went back and did it like 9 times this year. Here's the bad news. I have uncontrollable anxiety and am having what feels like a continuous panic attack. Chronic chest pain. Everything gets to me and It's hard to function. I have what they call "derealization" & sometimes I think I'm losing my sanity. I was put on Celexa today. Haven't started it yet. BUT it is SICK..very very sick the fact that I'm already trying to think when I'm going to be well enough to do e again.I miss it already.The scary part is I don't know how much damage my brain underwent already or how long it will take to fix it.If ever. Here's my advice: IT IS NOT WORTH IT! There's so much to life that you don't want to miss on. HOW THE HELL DID I GET MYSELF INTO THAT????
> I am an intelligent female MBA graduate who never did other drugs, do not like alcohol and never will..but this shit got me. It is that good..er..bad..whatever.
> I WISH I CAN HAVE FUN THE WAY I USED TO BRFORE E! IT WILL NEVER BE THE SAME & IT IS NOT WORTH IT!!!
> Control it IF you can. If not, seek professional help. The stuff is addictive and it is very damaging. Get someone to prevent you from doing it. I've read so many postings before of people wanting to stop SSRIs to feel the E! If this is not heart-wrenching, what is?
HI, niche! I became a meth burnout {in recovery} while at a prestigious northeastern university. I have found that I deny that drugs are largely a social experience even if I do them alone. The decision to do them obviously has a lot to do with your own moralities {yes, plural LOL} and identity. However, I've found that my screwed up emotions have fueled the cycle toward that chemical intoxication. It just seems I can feel yours right through the words, and I deeply empathize. Regardless of whether E is cut or uncut it is a deceptively powerful substance. That is just the way we were created. "Just trying to have fun" is no longer rational because they way drugs and the psyche are designed pleasure is always being reduced and deflated in favor of truth and struggle. E is hedonism. Hedonism is a pessimism {because if it's the center of one's life then one has no courage to struggle for that more dignified, difficult path of having safe, reasonable fun in a balanced life where one isn't selfishly seeking all the time}.Those aren't my ideas LOL. They make more sense to me now though.
Good luck with overcoming your E problem.
Posted by niche on May 6, 2004, at 0:50:25
In reply to Re: Celexa and Ecstasy(MDMA) » niche, posted by psychosage on May 5, 2004, at 22:16:50
Thank you all so much for your followup. It's greatly appreciated!
DENIAL is the word. I have done a lot of research on E. I've been to "dancesafe" quite frequently and read that other substances go into it... BUT...in my mind my pill didn't. I acted and reacted and recovered differently from my friends who had graduated from E to Meth and Cocaine. I 'seemed' to be more in control.In hindsight, my pills where not pure, cause I'm not sure whether MDMA keeps you going for a couple of days, or whether it gives you that much euphoria or that much speediness that you get on your own nerves. Or whether it puts you in sooo much delirium when it's wearing off that you don't know who or where you are. Or whether it can cause that much of a craving. Whatever it is, I took a gamble and I'm definitely suffering the consequences. I don't wish this upon anyone. I do want people to read this and RETHINK. Don't do it!
And "psychosage" I hear you. I don't know how hard 'balance' is going to be when my husband is opening a club in 2 months and everybody I know is on some kind of a drug. We'll see.
For the time being, I am isolating myslef, on Klonopin, and waiting to see what damage control Celexa will do.
Again thank you all!
Posted by chemist on May 6, 2004, at 2:19:11
In reply to Re: Celexa and Ecstasy(MDMA), posted by niche on May 6, 2004, at 0:50:25
> Thank you all so much for your followup. It's greatly appreciated!
> DENIAL is the word. I have done a lot of research on E. I've been to "dancesafe" quite frequently and read that other substances go into it... BUT...in my mind my pill didn't. I acted and reacted and recovered differently from my friends who had graduated from E to Meth and Cocaine. I 'seemed' to be more in control.In hindsight, my pills where not pure, cause I'm not sure whether MDMA keeps you going for a couple of days, or whether it gives you that much euphoria or that much speediness that you get on your own nerves. Or whether it puts you in sooo much delirium when it's wearing off that you don't know who or where you are. Or whether it can cause that much of a craving. Whatever it is, I took a gamble and I'm definitely suffering the consequences. I don't wish this upon anyone. I do want people to read this and RETHINK. Don't do it!
> And "psychosage" I hear you. I don't know how hard 'balance' is going to be when my husband is opening a club in 2 months and everybody I know is on some kind of a drug. We'll see.
> For the time being, I am isolating myslef, on Klonopin, and waiting to see what damage control Celexa will do.
> Again thank you all!
>
>
do the right thing and stay away from ``MDMA,'' i use quotes because you are clearly not getting the real thing, and even if you were, you would need to be watched closely by a pharmacopsychiatrist. the embarassing study of MDMA in primates - published in Science, September 27, 2003 by researchers at johns hopkins - was retracted when they learned that the MDMA used - which resulted in the death of 1 of 5 primates (squirrel monkeys) and incapacitation of another - was actually methamphetamine, not MDMA. the results are compelling, nonetheless, as they inadvertantly did a study of the effects of methamphetamine: the most commonly-found impurity in illicitly-prepared ``MDMA.'' conclusions: continued methamphetamine abuse leads to disorders associated with dopamine and serotonin depletion. as i have stated earlier, i will not divulge any synthetic routes for the manufacture of any substance - here or anywhere - but as a card-carrying ph.d. with a strong background in drug discovery, quantum physics, and chemistry, i can assure you that the people out there making ``MDMA'' are not getting yields in the range comparable to phamaceutical-grade MDMA and worse, they do not know how to ``clean up'' their product. i won't take it, never have, and don't ask about synthesis of the ``good stuff.'' there is positive correlation between lack of knowledge of organic synthesis and undereducation or complete lack thereof. watch the news about the idiots who use ether to...oops, gotta go...all the best, chemist
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