![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 80. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by boBB on May 25, 2000, at 17:42:03
Kelly,
I don't want to take sides in your personal relationship by presuming that your husband is putting things on you by yelling and talking down. He might very well be, but for all I know, the conflict is mutual. But if he is part of your problem, and he cares about you, he should be willing to get into some guided mutual self-exploration such as family or marital counciling. I have been very burned by divorce where I was held responsible for someone elses feelings of frustration, so I don't want to instigate divorce, especially not knowing who else might be involved, like maybe children. And I really don't know if you have access to any kind of qualifed counseling situation, but my point is, you can't wear this all yourself.
If you need to get away, work on that. Maybe the relationship is abusive, but I see enough of that in court to know that sometimes the primary agressor is not the only antagonist. At any rate, if that is the problem, you can either ask him to persue mutual counseling, or at least to acknowledge how his style weighs on your feelings. Suicidal feelings are real, and can be dangerous, but we can't let them be a reason we don't confront our problematic relationships. If you need some time away, there are crisis centers that help (mostly) women in most communities. You can tend to fall into a set of one-sided assumptions at those places, but they do offer some sort of refuge if you have no other way to get a reprieve from your situation. I don't want to rattle that cage. Maybe this is something he can help you with, or that you can work out between yourselves if you are lucky.
I know what you say about approaching doctors. I hate going to the dentinst, not for the pain, but because I resent their income level and way of life and I don't like being put off for two months to get an appointment. Maybe this dentist won't ridicule me for not liking radiographic diagnosis, but prior experiences are enough to make me reluctant. Many just don't seem to get that it is my body and my decision what kind of therapy I will allow.
Good luck to you and to your family,
boBB
Posted by Tina1 on May 25, 2000, at 21:21:39
In reply to feelings, posted by boBB on May 25, 2000, at 17:42:03
Your posts lately have a decidedly less aggressive tone. Have things improved in your neck of the woods? How are you doing these days? --Tina
> Kelly,
>
> I don't want to take sides in your personal relationship by presuming that your husband is putting things on you by yelling and talking down. He might very well be, but for all I know, the conflict is mutual. But if he is part of your problem, and he cares about you, he should be willing to get into some guided mutual self-exploration such as family or marital counciling. I have been very burned by divorce where I was held responsible for someone elses feelings of frustration, so I don't want to instigate divorce, especially not knowing who else might be involved, like maybe children. And I really don't know if you have access to any kind of qualifed counseling situation, but my point is, you can't wear this all yourself.
>
> If you need to get away, work on that. Maybe the relationship is abusive, but I see enough of that in court to know that sometimes the primary agressor is not the only antagonist. At any rate, if that is the problem, you can either ask him to persue mutual counseling, or at least to acknowledge how his style weighs on your feelings. Suicidal feelings are real, and can be dangerous, but we can't let them be a reason we don't confront our problematic relationships. If you need some time away, there are crisis centers that help (mostly) women in most communities. You can tend to fall into a set of one-sided assumptions at those places, but they do offer some sort of refuge if you have no other way to get a reprieve from your situation. I don't want to rattle that cage. Maybe this is something he can help you with, or that you can work out between yourselves if you are lucky.
>
> I know what you say about approaching doctors. I hate going to the dentinst, not for the pain, but because I resent their income level and way of life and I don't like being put off for two months to get an appointment. Maybe this dentist won't ridicule me for not liking radiographic diagnosis, but prior experiences are enough to make me reluctant. Many just don't seem to get that it is my body and my decision what kind of therapy I will allow.
>
> Good luck to you and to your family,
> boBB
Posted by boBb on May 25, 2000, at 23:25:34
In reply to Re: Hey boBB, posted by Tina1 on May 25, 2000, at 21:21:39
>>Have things improved in your neck of the woods? How are you doing these days? --Tina
Thanks for asking. I'm the same. People are often surpised at the breadth of my emotional repetroire. I consider it proper to sublimate my feelings toward purposes I consider socially worthwhile. Please have some sympathy and some respect for my darker side.
I try not to say too much about my inner feelings. Why eclipse anyone else's hope? Maybe others can more easily find relief, maybe others aren't plagued as I am by spirits crying for help, or can more readily afford help without sacrificing their own comfort.
Have I mentioned my bitter loneliness? My desparate ideological isolation, knowing that billions agree with even me while I am surrounded by those who disagree? Engaged in conversation day after day, all day long, but never able to bear my soul? My withering poverty? My longing to know my children? My growing weariness with living?
Sometimes those we call cold and hard are the very ones upon which the rest anchor their foundations.
Posted by CarolAnn on May 26, 2000, at 9:05:51
In reply to Re: Hey boBB, posted by boBb on May 25, 2000, at 23:25:34
>> plagued as I am by spirits crying for help, >
> Have I mentioned my bitter loneliness? My desparate ideological isolation, knowing that billions agree with even me while I am surrounded by those who disagree? Engaged in conversation day after day, all day long, but never able to bear my soul? My withering poverty? My longing to know my children? My growing weariness with living?>>>
>Bob, this breaks my heart! I wish you could feel how sad I am for you right now. I have a tremendous amount of compassion for your lack of a trustworthy confidant. If you get to the point of feeling comfortable enough to "bear" your soul here, I would most definitely like to listen. I can't promise to agree, or join your cause. But, I can promise, with absolute sincerity, that I will be a compassionate and nonjudgemental "ear".
CarolAnn
Posted by boBB on May 26, 2000, at 9:39:03
In reply to Re: to Bobb, posted by CarolAnn on May 26, 2000, at 9:05:51
CarolAnn
Its not about me. It’s not “my” cause - it is myriad “causes” of people around the world. A sympathetic ear would not lighten my burden at all. To see others tenaciously and independently pursuing the “cause” of human rights - the right to food and a home, the right to freedom to live as one chooses - seeing that gives me some comfort. Physical, animal affection would likely help me breath better and relax my deep muscles, but this I can do without. People die in agony for just cause - for causes you may not care about, but from which you likely benefit. I find satisfaction sharing their suffering, and suffering for these “causes” is the best way you could lend me comfort.
Posted by Noa on May 26, 2000, at 10:38:45
In reply to Re: from Bobb, posted by boBB on May 26, 2000, at 9:39:03
Are you choosing to suffer in order to champion the causes of the suffering?
Another way to look at it is, wouldn't you be more effective as an advocate of the downtrodden if you were relieved of some of your suffering, if you were healthy and strong and could mobilize your convictions and anger more effectively?
Maybe the idea of a furry friend is a good one. Could the affection give you strength to pursue the work you want to do?
Posted by boBB on May 26, 2000, at 11:03:31
In reply to Re: from Bobb, posted by Noa on May 26, 2000, at 10:38:45
>>>Maybe the idea of a furry friend is a good one. Could the affection give you strength to pursue the work you want to do?
Have you ever tried to rent an apartment with little or no money down when you have a pet? Last dog I had got shot when he ran into town. I didn't spend enough time and didn't care to confine him. A pet would unnecessarily anchor me. The piano is nice, but if I need to let it go, bye-bye!
>>>Wouldn't you be more effective as an advocate of the downtrodden if you were relieved of some of your suffering, if you were healthy and strong and could mobilize your convictions and anger more effectively?
Wouldn't doctors help more people get well if they donated half of their $250,000 incomes to housing loan pools? Couldn't soldiers fight harder if they weren't dead already? Wouldn't your favortie team have a better chance if there star athelete was not injured in the previous game? There is always a what if...
I do what I can with the resources available to me. I am healthy and strong. So what if I am lonely, tired and poor. I could spend my life making more money, but to what avail? I do what I can. It's not about me. Drop it. I am almost sorry I shared the truth. This isn't the God site where any an all ailments can be cured if we just profess faith.
Posted by Noa on May 26, 2000, at 13:03:04
In reply to Re: from Bobb, posted by boBB on May 26, 2000, at 11:03:31
Believe me boBB, I was not talking about making money. I was talking about allowing yourself to meet some of your emotional needs, that if you did so, maybe you would actually have more strength to put toward your efforts to make real changes in the world.
How awful about your dog.
Posted by boBB on May 26, 2000, at 14:11:56
In reply to Re: from Bobb, posted by Noa on May 26, 2000, at 13:03:04
If fish had wings
Posted by Noa on May 26, 2000, at 15:02:52
In reply to If fish had wings, posted by boBB on May 26, 2000, at 14:11:56
> If fish had wings
Hopelessness, expressed succinctly.
Hopelessness, a hallmark of depression.
Depression, a difficult to treat, yet treatable illness.
The world, hopelessly mired in injustice and suffering.
One person, one problem, solvable if taken in solvable bits.
Larger problems, even, solvable one step at a time.
Institutional problems, even, solvable if hope can be kept alive.
If fish had wings, hoplessness expressed succintly.
Hopelessness, a hallmark of depression.
Depression, a difficult to treat, yet treatable illness.
Hope, guarded by others when we cannot see it or feel it.
Hope, the key.
Posted by boBB on May 26, 2000, at 15:18:42
In reply to Re: If fish had wings, posted by Noa on May 26, 2000, at 15:02:52
Noa, your posture reflects your humanistic world view, but my life is mine to manage. I could come up with all kinds of analysis of you, but would rather deal with human RELATIONSHIPS. You sound to me like a fundamentalist, condemning me to your version of hell (depression) if I do not endorse your version of salvation AKA Prozak. As I recall an old song, it goes, the dealer, he's your friend, but GODDAMN the pusherman. You are way out of line telling me how I should feel. You don't even know my name, much less the nuance of my situation. In reply to someone else I shared how I feel because they asked, not to provide material for you to reinforce your world view. I feel how I feel because it is how I am supposed to feel. Go rent Candyman III. I garauntee you do not want to face the horrors that will step in should I repress my very legitimate feelings. If you don't want to see how I feel I suggest your take a fork and gouge out your eyes.
> > If fish had wings
>
> Hopelessness, expressed succinctly.
> Hopelessness, a hallmark of depression.
> Depression, a difficult to treat, yet treatable illness.
> The world, hopelessly mired in injustice and suffering.
> One person, one problem, solvable if taken in solvable bits.
> Larger problems, even, solvable one step at a time.
> Institutional problems, even, solvable if hope can be kept alive.
> If fish had wings, hoplessness expressed succintly.
> Hopelessness, a hallmark of depression.
> Depression, a difficult to treat, yet treatable illness.
> Hope, guarded by others when we cannot see it or feel it.
> Hope, the key.
Posted by Tina1 on May 26, 2000, at 15:19:19
In reply to Re: If fish had wings, posted by Noa on May 26, 2000, at 15:02:52
That's some incredible prose, love it.
> > If fish had wings
>
> Hopelessness, expressed succinctly.
> Hopelessness, a hallmark of depression.
> Depression, a difficult to treat, yet treatable illness.
> The world, hopelessly mired in injustice and suffering.
> One person, one problem, solvable if taken in solvable bits.
> Larger problems, even, solvable one step at a time.
> Institutional problems, even, solvable if hope can be kept alive.
> If fish had wings, hoplessness expressed succintly.
> Hopelessness, a hallmark of depression.
> Depression, a difficult to treat, yet treatable illness.
> Hope, guarded by others when we cannot see it or feel it.
> Hope, the key.
Posted by Tina1 on May 26, 2000, at 15:40:21
In reply to Pragmatism, posted by boBB on May 26, 2000, at 15:18:42
> Noa, your posture reflects your humanistic world view, but my life is mine to manage. I could come up with all kinds of analysis of you, but would rather deal with human RELATIONSHIPS. You sound to me like a fundamentalist, condemning me to your version of hell (depression) if I do not endorse your version of salvation AKA Prozak. As I recall an old song, it goes, the dealer, he's your friend, but GODDAMN the pusherman. You are way out of line telling me how I should feel. You don't even know my name, much less the nuance of my situation. In reply to someone else I shared how I feel because they asked, not to provide material for you to reinforce your world view. I feel how I feel because it is how I am supposed to feel. Go rent Candyman III. I garauntee you do not want to face the horrors that will step in should I repress my very legitimate feelings. If you don't want to see how I feel I suggest your take a fork and gouge out your eyes.
boBB; I asked how you were because I really wanted to know. I'm sorry I opened such a can of worms, didn't mean to cause trouble. Just tell me to mind my own business next time, I won't take offense. It IS your life and you should be entitled to live it the way you see fit. Again, I'm sorry and I hope you had a good day(relatively speaking).---Tina>
> > > If fish had wings
> >
> > Hopelessness, expressed succinctly.
> > Hopelessness, a hallmark of depression.
> > Depression, a difficult to treat, yet treatable illness.
> > The world, hopelessly mired in injustice and suffering.
> > One person, one problem, solvable if taken in solvable bits.
> > Larger problems, even, solvable one step at a time.
> > Institutional problems, even, solvable if hope can be kept alive.
> > If fish had wings, hoplessness expressed succintly.
> > Hopelessness, a hallmark of depression.
> > Depression, a difficult to treat, yet treatable illness.
> > Hope, guarded by others when we cannot see it or feel it.
> > Hope, the key.
Posted by Noa on May 26, 2000, at 15:41:31
In reply to Pragmatism, posted by boBB on May 26, 2000, at 15:18:42
boBB,
I am sorry if my response came across like a prescription for how you should feel. It was not intended as such. It was intended to be a thought tossed your way as well as an expression of having been touched by what you wrote. Apparently, my intent was not conveyed correctly. You are a gifted writer. I am not.
Your assumption that I am pushing medication is just mistaken. Afterall, medication is just one form of treatment. There are others. In any event, I was simply trying to convey a sense of possibility.
Fundamentalist? This is so remote from describing me that I cannot even be insulted by it.
You do not know my name, either, and yet you make assumptions about me.
>If you don't want to see how I feel I suggest your take a fork and gouge out your eyes.
Please do not speak to me this way.
Posted by boBB on May 26, 2000, at 16:12:30
In reply to Re: Pragmatism, posted by Noa on May 26, 2000, at 15:41:31
If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out.
How is it the biblical version is so much more pallitable?You called me sick. You did it in a conversation you initiated. You picked a fight then cried bully when the blows began to sting.
Now you demean my perspective by reducing whatever insight I might offer to simply represent superior writing skills. Reminds me of my only mairrage. I could seldom defend my feelings or perspective as valid, I was just “better with words.” But even many theraputic methods would recomend that a care-giver legitimize a subjects feelings by accepting their “internal logic.” I appreciate your need to help, but if you want to help me, you will need to accept my legitimacy - not the worth of who I could be if I “got better” but the worth of me “just as I am without one plea, but that thy blood was shed for me.”
Jesus wept.
> >If you don't want to see how I feel I suggest your take a fork and gouge out your eyes.
>
> Please do not speak to me this way.
Posted by Noa on May 26, 2000, at 16:28:59
In reply to Re: Pragmatism, posted by boBB on May 26, 2000, at 16:12:30
You are legitimate as you are.
You are right, I have difficulty with your perspective. I was challenging it. But I was not attacking you nor declaring you illegitimate.
My comment about writing skill was not referring at all to the content or nature of your post. It was MY writing I was talking about--that my intentions were apparently not conveyed properly by my use of language.
However, it seems that no matter what I try to say to clarify my intentions, I get nowhere. What you have said to me today gives me the impression that you automatically attribute hostile intentions.
I have no need to help you. I had a desire to converse and challenge your perspective, as you have challenged mine and others here. I offered thoughts. I offered help, and it has been no surprise to me that you reject it. And so it is your right to do so.
Posted by boBB on May 26, 2000, at 17:12:19
In reply to Re: Pragmatism, posted by Noa on May 26, 2000, at 16:28:59
That's fair enough. I am not really reading backwards through these posts to say who said what. I can't really attribute motives to you that don't concur with your own assessment.
If there is any difference, you say you are trying to get me to challenge my perspective. Some people say that is what I do here, but that does not mean I am trying to get anyone to challenge their own perspective. I am doing the challenging, when I challenge a perspective. If they decide it is easier to reassess their view than to continue to face my challenge, that is their thing. If thier position is strong, my challenge would have no effect, nor should it. I confront others with my perspective and then assess the reaction. Maybe i will change, maybe they will, or maybe the status quo will stand fast.
Posted by Noa on May 26, 2000, at 17:53:30
In reply to Re: Pragmatism, posted by boBB on May 26, 2000, at 17:12:19
> you say you are trying to get me to challenge my perspective.
What I said was that I was challenging your perspective, not trying to get you to challenge your own.
I agree completely with you that if I challenge your perspective, it is then your option to use my challenge to rethink your perspective or not, as you wish, as it is my option to do so or not when you challenge my perspective.
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 26, 2000, at 19:24:32
In reply to Pragmatism, posted by boBB on May 26, 2000, at 15:18:42
> You sound to me like a fundamentalist
> If you don't want to see how I feel I suggest your take a fork and gouge out your eyes.
Please try not to say anything that could be taken as accusatory. And please don't suggest that anyone do anything self-destructive.
A goal of this board is to provide support. This limits freedom of speech. It can be therapeutic to speak freely, but sometimes this just isn't the appropriate place.
Please consider this a warning.
Bob
Posted by boBB on May 26, 2000, at 21:19:59
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by Dr. Bob on May 26, 2000, at 19:24:32
If my insight offends you, cut me.
Somebody asks me how I am doing. I reply honestly. Tag team jumps in and starts to criticize my feelings. I say I'm okay with who I am. I paraphrase a passage from the common bible - the most protected speech in western history, but guess who is wrong?
If you are ready to demonstrate exactly what kind of violence you are capable of, go for it.
Posted by allisonm on May 26, 2000, at 21:49:23
In reply to Civil war, posted by boBB on May 26, 2000, at 21:19:59
Here we go again. To quote Rodney King, and seriously, can't we all just get along? (And boBB, I don't mean just you, I mean everybody on this board.)
There seems to be so much prickly-ness around lately. Folks seem to be taking offense more and the explanations and clarifications are beginning to feel endless, at least for me watching on the sidelines. And I remain on the sidelines. I am not getting into this any further than this message.
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 27, 2000, at 0:56:30
In reply to Civil war, posted by boBB on May 26, 2000, at 21:19:59
> Somebody asks me how I am doing. I reply honestly. Tag team jumps in and starts to criticize my feelings. I say I'm okay with who I am.
Honesty is good, but not an excuse for incivility. The problem wasn't how you felt, it was what you said. There's a difference between who you are and what you do.
> I paraphrase a passage from the common bible - the most protected speech in western history, but guess who is wrong?
1. The specific way something's paraphrased can make a difference.
2. Coming from the Bible isn't an excuse for incivility, either.
Bob
Posted by CarolAnn on May 27, 2000, at 9:05:26
In reply to Civil war, posted by boBB on May 26, 2000, at 21:19:59
>
>>Somebody asks me how I am doing. I reply honestly. Tag team jumps in and starts to criticize my feelings. I say I'm okay with who I am.>>Bobb, I've not been online for a few days, this is in reply to your post to me and some of the others in this thread.
I know you don't care, but I am *deeply* hurt that you chose to shove my compassion back in my face. As I reread my post of the 26th, I see that I in no way criticized your feelings nor did I suggest that you change them. I gave an 'honest' reaction to your 'honest' reply to the question of how you were doing.
Your post seemed to be a literal 'cry of the spirit', and I merely wanted to offer comfort to that 'cry'. As far as your implication that I do not suffer for the "causes" of humanity, you couldn't be more wrong. The fact is that my suffering for humanity is so great, that I would literally drown in sorrow, if I ever let myself be immersed in that suffering. If I am to be any help at all to mankind, it must be one "cause" at a time. When I said that I could not promise to "join" your cause, it was out of ignorance of which "causes" you are championing at this time.
The fact that you chose to ignore my offer of a "nonjudgemental" ear, shows that you care more for all your "causes" then you do for any member of the human race. Yes, you are right, none of "this" is about you or me. But, if any of humanities "causes" are to be served, if injustice is to be vanquished, it will have to be done cause by cause and individual by individual. You want to save humanity, feed the hungry, house the homeless, free those unjustly accused, ect., ect....Well, how do you expect to improve the conditions of humanity, when you don't *care* about the feelings of any individual human? We all suffer, just in different ways. If you can't have compassion for one man or one woman, you will never have any effect on the "causes" of mankind. CarolAnn
Posted by Tina1 on May 27, 2000, at 9:47:33
In reply to Re: Civil war, posted by Dr. Bob on May 27, 2000, at 0:56:30
Please, aren't we all used to boBB by now. He is an antagonist. From what I can tell he doesn't come to this board to help himself, he comes here to shake us up and remind us how alive we really are. He sees a lot of the bad side of humanity in his line of work and it can really undermine ones faith in humanity. Crusaders crusade, it's what they do, by the sword if necessary.
> > Somebody asks me how I am doing. I reply honestly. Tag team jumps in and starts to criticize my feelings. I say I'm okay with who I am.
>
> Honesty is good, but not an excuse for incivility. The problem wasn't how you felt, it was what you said. There's a difference between who you are and what you do.
>
> > I paraphrase a passage from the common bible - the most protected speech in western history, but guess who is wrong?
>
> 1. The specific way something's paraphrased can make a difference.
>
> 2. Coming from the Bible isn't an excuse for incivility, either.
>
> Bob
Posted by Noa on May 27, 2000, at 10:36:14
In reply to Re: Civil war, posted by Tina1 on May 27, 2000, at 9:47:33
Moving on.
Go forward in thread:
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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