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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 76 to 100 of 206. Go back in thread:
Posted by A. on March 29, 2000, at 17:47:50
In reply to Re: NO MORE DRUGS, posted by Cam W. on March 29, 2000, at 7:33:42
Well 5-HTP is different, being that it naturally is in your body to begin with. This is what your body uses to make serotonin. Suppliments are generally used to boost the amount of serotonin your body normally makes. In small doses it has no side effects, and can make transition b/w prescription drugs and therapy less traumatic. This was only a suggestion, as it has worked for a lot of people. Of course, this is Joy's choice of how she wants to handle it. She just seems apprehensive about going cold turkey. If safety about taking 5-HTP is a concern, there are a lot of websites dedicated to giving detailed information on it.
Posted by Rebecca on March 29, 2000, at 17:56:02
In reply to IM SOOOOO CONFUSED! HELP! , posted by Laura on March 28, 2000, at 23:57:25
Laura--I'll put in a big positive vote for celexa. for me, it's worked wonders. I've been taking it since December, and am still tweaking things, but it's great to be at a state of tweaking rather than wallowing.
I had nausea and insomnia and constipation at first, and they all went away. Then, when the dose was increased to 60 mg at the end of February, the insomnia returned and I lost my appetite and interest in food. (I also stopped taking risperdal at the same time, so I think the risperdal had been counteracting the celexa side effects). I just started seroquel, and am sleeping more and have my appetite back.
Finding the right medication combination is really an individual thing. A. asked why people don't use prozac instead of celexa--I tried prozac, but it gave me horrible anxiety and insomnia (and I'd never had anxiety problems before). For me, it took a lot of frustration and months of side effects coming and going before I found something that works well with bearable side effects. I ran out of patience several times and thought I'd rather be predicably depressed than wonder what medications would make my body and mind do next.
I'm not sure when/if I'll go off the celexa (I've had depression since adolescence)--for now I'm concentrating on getting to a good and stable state and figuring out what I want to do with my life.
Posted by Cam W. on March 29, 2000, at 18:58:07
In reply to Re: Re: NO MORE DRUGS, posted by A. on March 29, 2000, at 17:47:50
A. - Sorry for the knee-jerk reaction, but I deal with natural = safe everyday. I have patients relapse quite often because the 'natural products' "cure", while conventional therapies only alleviate symptoms. That is why I am sensitive when I see natural.Does 5-HTP absorb as a whole molecule or is it broken into component parts and reformed in the bloodstream and is it active or passive transport across the intestinal membrane? Also, it must readily cross the blood brain barrier to elicit an effect or does it act peripherally? I agree that a low dose of a naturally occuring biochemical can help if indeed serotonin is lacking and if you can get it into the brain.
Again, sorry for the lashing out. - Cam W.
Posted by Laura on March 30, 2000, at 0:06:59
In reply to Re: IM SOOOOO CONFUSED! HELP! , posted by Rebecca on March 29, 2000, at 17:56:02
Rebecca:
Thanks for your imput! I really appreciate it! I wish you well and hope you find your place in the world!
;)
Laura
Posted by Glenda on March 30, 2000, at 21:09:58
In reply to Re: Celexa Side Effects, posted by Linda on March 22, 2000, at 21:41:19
I was on CELEXA for 6months....got really sleepy...lost energy....was far less hyper than I had felt and slept like a rock....had trouble getting up in the morning, I was sleeping so soundly....Got tired of being tired so I decided to go with out....and slowly withdrew...so far so good....I wake up refreshed....go to bed with a usual tiredness not a drugged effect and I am starting to go back to my original weight.Its been about a week off of it...now will see what the depression , pms and anxiety do....Have planned to keep active AND pray a lot. Will keep you all posted.
Posted by Dawn on March 31, 2000, at 8:23:25
In reply to Re: celexa makes me gag, posted by Amy on February 11, 2000, at 15:48:51
I think this is to Amy:
I have hypothyroidism and have always been
slightly under weight----about 105-117---I'm 5'7. So you can have hypothyroidism and not be over weight.
Posted by D on March 31, 2000, at 8:32:50
In reply to Re: celexa, posted by Lisa on March 17, 2000, at 19:34:49
For anyone who is not happy with Celexa, I've had wonderful results with Zoloft. I was on 50mg.
Posted by Valley Girl on March 31, 2000, at 13:11:00
In reply to Re: celexa, posted by D on March 31, 2000, at 8:32:50
>Has anyone else had shooting pains in the side of their head while taking Celexa? This is my 5th week on 20 mgs and the other day I had such a pain in my head I thought I was having a stroke! I am also now experiencing short term memory loss. Like I actually had to look up how to spell memory. I am an exellent speller. Being an executive secretary, I really need to be able to focus, it's not happening. I thought I could deal with side-affects, now it is affecting my job. I am really not feeling any different with the depression. It is still black. I was forced into taking meds anyway. I do not think my depression is organic. But,I figured I would make my therapist and doctors happy. Now what?
For anyone who is not happy with Celexa, I've had wonderful results with Zoloft. I was on 50mg.
Posted by Joy on March 31, 2000, at 20:52:18
In reply to Re: Unsubscribe, posted by Dr. Bob on March 25, 2000, at 14:48:04
Thanks A. and Cam W.
I am now reading a book by Michael Murray,N.D.,
5-HTP The Natural Way to Overcome Depression,Obesity
and Insomnia.
So far it makes sense to me-tho I am not a Dr.
Alot of the info. strikes home.Also,no matter what "ailment" a person has....the
chances are greater of recovery..if that person "believes"
in the choice of treatment.And there are times when a person is not so much
"depressed" as they are "confused" about their life.
Knowing yourself..with growing up..seeking answers
within (rather than following others or always seeking
approval or making others decisions...yours) is
key to being happy and well adjusted.Joy
Posted by Sandra on April 4, 2000, at 10:11:57
In reply to IM SOOOOO CONFUSED! HELP! , posted by Laura on March 28, 2000, at 23:57:25
Not to be cynical (since I've been handling a "bout of depression" myself) but are you sure there is not some physical issue here? Such as vitamin deficiency, hormone changes, lack of exercise, change in diet or thyroid or blood sugar change vice just depression? I'm not trying to say depression isn't real by any means but there is SO much we can do for ourselves other than resorting to a pill for a quick fix. Depression is a state of mind and also body... so my intent is to find things other than meds.
(I've been through zoloft..bad juju sexual side affects ask hubby. Serzone...zombie state and no memory...and now celexa for 2 days....we'll give it a month and see). I think I'm going to knock off the drugs after giving this last one a try for a month. If it doesn't work I will continue therapy once a week and work on diet, exercise and some more time-consuming "fixes" to see what happens when I WORK at those things, vice go for a pill. Nothing comes easy and YES, I'm definitely diagnosed as "depressed" but I'm fighting to be optimistic that I can beat this !!! I believe the underlying physical imbalance makes us susceptible to the "fog" of depression. I too have a life with gerat things going on and "should not" be depressed. But I was also told that "stress" is not just bad things...all change or highly consuming activity creates some stress within us. Even simply being a workaholic (me) can be a stress all by itself. Hang in there and find what works for YOU! We're all individual... try to find the one thing that starts the cycle on the upward trend again and go with that. It may be that you have a thyroid imbalance? It WILL be the start of something good once you figure out where to start! Don't also become obsessed like I did in trying to find out "why" so much as start just working on one thing at a time one DAY at a time. :-) God Bless and keep me posted!
> I really wish I could figure out what is really going on with me. I was recently diagnosed with Depression (something which I've never had before). I am not going through any serious issues... In fact, my life hasnt been this wonderful in quite a long time. I do not wake up each morning sad/or lack of desire to do things. HOWEVER.. I am experiencing terrible blurry vision, terrible brain fog (I'm having difficulty processing information), and virtually no short term memory/recall. I am also irritible and pissed off most of the time...over silly stuff mostly...something which I've never done in my whole life...
>
> I tried Wellbutrin 300mg daily but it didnt even put a dent in it... As of today, I am trying Celexa but am a bit scared ...most of the bulletins indicated that the people who took Celexa functioned but in some sense,they were a bit numb and out of touch.
>
> I just want to be the way I was just a few months ago... happy go lucky and feeling good. It scares me to think that I'm going to be on drugs..maybe for life.... Does anyone have any positive stories about Celexa? Were you able to get off it after a while?
Posted by Sandra on April 4, 2000, at 10:23:22
In reply to Personal choices/Know yourself/Believe in Yourself, posted by Joy on March 31, 2000, at 20:52:18
Joy,
I like what you said and agree! What we believe in makes all the difference and if we believe we can beat this...we can and we will.
Positive thinking is the toughest thing to suggest to someone with depression but the biggest help. In fact some of us fight it because we know people who tell us to start thinking postiive are right and we don't think or believe in ourselves enough to think we can. But at least when someone suggested it to me I started giving it a try...and lo and behold it sure DIDN'T hurt!!! LOL
God Bless!
> Thanks A. and Cam W.
> I am now reading a book by Michael Murray,N.D.,
> 5-HTP The Natural Way to Overcome Depression,Obesity
> and Insomnia.
> So far it makes sense to me-tho I am not a Dr.
> Alot of the info. strikes home.
>
> Also,no matter what "ailment" a person has....the
> chances are greater of recovery..if that person "believes"
> in the choice of treatment.
>
> And there are times when a person is not so much
> "depressed" as they are "confused" about their life.
> Knowing yourself..with growing up..seeking answers
> within (rather than following others or always seeking
> approval or making others decisions...yours) is
> key to being happy and well adjusted.
>
> Joy
Posted by Lauren Heuss on April 4, 2000, at 11:52:39
In reply to more Celexa sharing, posted by torchgrl on February 9, 2000, at 2:46:11
I just started taking today, and am trying to find out what other people thought. Are there any good websites for information? I was taking Prozac but my doctor took me off that and gave me the Celexa. Anything I should know about?
Posted by Valley Girl on April 4, 2000, at 12:56:03
In reply to Re: To Joy: ices/Know yourself/Believe in Yourself, posted by Sandra on April 4, 2000, at 10:23:22
>Being depressed my whole life with issues of no self esteem and dissassociation, I agree in some respects with what you say. But, as we all know telling someone with depression to take care of themselves is like putting a band-aid on a gapping wound. It all sounds good in books and theory.
Why is so easy for some people to be happy? To go through life smelling the flowers and for others just getting out of bed is their biggest accomplishment. No matter how hard I try to change my life, I get bashed in the face again and again, two steps forward, ten steps back. I do think things happen for a reason. I just can't figure out why I was dealt this hand. I don't ever remember being happy. It should be a simple thing. Although I read somewhere that we make to much out of being happy, we should just not expect that much of it.
Thanks for letting me vent.
Valley GirlJoy,
> I like what you said and agree! What we believe in makes all the difference and if we believe we can beat this...we can and we will.
> Positive thinking is the toughest thing to suggest to someone with depression but the biggest help. In fact some of us fight it because we know people who tell us to start thinking postiive are right and we don't think or believe in ourselves enough to think we can. But at least when someone suggested it to me I started giving it a try...and lo and behold it sure DIDN'T hurt!!! LOL
> God Bless!
> > Thanks A. and Cam W.
> > I am now reading a book by Michael Murray,N.D.,
> > 5-HTP The Natural Way to Overcome Depression,Obesity
> > and Insomnia.
> > So far it makes sense to me-tho I am not a Dr.
> > Alot of the info. strikes home.
> >
> > Also,no matter what "ailment" a person has....the
> > chances are greater of recovery..if that person "believes"
> > in the choice of treatment.
> >
> > And there are times when a person is not so much
> > "depressed" as they are "confused" about their life.
> > Knowing yourself..with growing up..seeking answers
> > within (rather than following others or always seeking
> > approval or making others decisions...yours) is
> > key to being happy and well adjusted.
> >
> > Joy
Posted by Joy on April 4, 2000, at 14:16:25
In reply to Re: To Joy: ices/Know yourself/Believe in Yourself, posted by Valley Girl on April 4, 2000, at 12:56:03
Is there one thing in your life that you enjoy doing? Focus on that one thing. What makes you smile? What little thing gives you hope?
Or is there something you have an interest in..but haven't tried? In this big wonderful world..there is something that makes valley girl curious.
What season of the year do you like? If it's spring/summer..do you enjoy gardening? Take several little pots of bright flowers and arrange them
artistically..sit down in the dirt/grass and focus on putting small rocks around the flowers.Remember as a child how you could get totally involved in some simple task and it would take on such concentration that the rest of the world
seemed far away?How about stitchery?Bike riding?Leaf/stamp/coin/whatever collecting?
I believe we are very IMPORTANT,each and everyone of us on this earth..BIG in the sense of importance...but we can find peace and happiness
in the SMALL things in life.Maybe you like numbers..so plan out something in life through numbers.
Or animals,or playing the accordion..play for the people at a seniors home.Try something to give yourself total focus.
Also,give of yourself to others that are having more problems in their
lives than yourself. There are many.Try something..it could lead you to a wonderful new path!
I have an inspiring story of my late mother-in-law and her life journey
through terminal illness,depression and HOPE.
Another time...I have gone on & on here. :)
Posted by Valley Girl on April 4, 2000, at 14:56:13
In reply to What makes you HAPPY VALLEY GIRL??, posted by Joy on April 4, 2000, at 14:16:25
>No one seems to get it. Life is not enough! What is in it is not enough! Children, grandchildren are not enough. I think that happiness is an illusion. It is putting that carrot in front of your nose and dangling it there and never can you get a nibble. To force myself to enjoy something is the problem. It should not be hard to enjoy something. Like I said, if I even try to enjoy something, something happens to make me pay.
And I am on Celexa. It sure isn't helping me!
Thanks for trying!
Is there one thing in your life that you enjoy doing? Focus on that one thing. What makes you smile? What little thing gives you hope?
> Or is there something you have an interest in..but haven't tried? In this big wonderful world..there is something that makes valley girl curious.
> What season of the year do you like? If it's spring/summer..do you enjoy gardening? Take several little pots of bright flowers and arrange them
> artistically..sit down in the dirt/grass and focus on putting small rocks around the flowers.
>
> Remember as a child how you could get totally involved in some simple task and it would take on such concentration that the rest of the world
> seemed far away?
>
> How about stitchery?Bike riding?Leaf/stamp/coin/whatever collecting?
>
> I believe we are very IMPORTANT,each and everyone of us on this earth..BIG in the sense of importance...but we can find peace and happiness
> in the SMALL things in life.
>
> Maybe you like numbers..so plan out something in life through numbers.
> Or animals,or playing the accordion..play for the people at a seniors home.
>
> Try something to give yourself total focus.
> Also,give of yourself to others that are having more problems in their
> lives than yourself. There are many.
>
> Try something..it could lead you to a wonderful new path!
> I have an inspiring story of my late mother-in-law and her life journey
> through terminal illness,depression and HOPE.
> Another time...I have gone on & on here. :)
Posted by Sherry on April 4, 2000, at 15:14:46
In reply to Re: What makes you HAPPY VALLEY GIRL??, posted by Valley Girl on April 4, 2000, at 14:56:13
I get it Valley Girl. I know exactly where you are coming from. I enjoy house cleaning, but you should see my house. It's hard to enjoy when it takes all your effort to just move. I enjoy being clean, but damned if I don't let my shower go more than I like to. I guess we are just wallowing in self-pity, and until we straighten up we will never get better. Not!
> >No one seems to get it. Life is not enough! What is in it is not enough! Children, grandchildren are not enough. I think that happiness is an illusion. It is putting that carrot in front of your nose and dangling it there and never can you get a nibble. To force myself to enjoy something is the problem. It should not be hard to enjoy something. Like I said, if I even try to enjoy something, something happens to make me pay.
>
> And I am on Celexa. It sure isn't helping me!
>
> Thanks for trying!
>
>
>
>
> Is there one thing in your life that you enjoy doing? Focus on that one thing. What makes you smile? What little thing gives you hope?
> > Or is there something you have an interest in..but haven't tried? In this big wonderful world..there is something that makes valley girl curious.
> > What season of the year do you like? If it's spring/summer..do you enjoy gardening? Take several little pots of bright flowers and arrange them
> > artistically..sit down in the dirt/grass and focus on putting small rocks around the flowers.
> >
> > Remember as a child how you could get totally involved in some simple task and it would take on such concentration that the rest of the world
> > seemed far away?
> >
> > How about stitchery?Bike riding?Leaf/stamp/coin/whatever collecting?
> >
> > I believe we are very IMPORTANT,each and everyone of us on this earth..BIG in the sense of importance...but we can find peace and happiness
> > in the SMALL things in life.
> >
> > Maybe you like numbers..so plan out something in life through numbers.
> > Or animals,or playing the accordion..play for the people at a seniors home.
> >
> > Try something to give yourself total focus.
> > Also,give of yourself to others that are having more problems in their
> > lives than yourself. There are many.
> >
> > Try something..it could lead you to a wonderful new path!
> > I have an inspiring story of my late mother-in-law and her life journey
> > through terminal illness,depression and HOPE.
> > Another time...I have gone on & on here. :)
Posted by TOM on April 5, 2000, at 17:42:47
In reply to Re: What makes you HAPPY VALLEY GIRL??, posted by Sherry on April 4, 2000, at 15:14:46
> > >No one seems to get it. Life is not enough! What is in it is not enough! Children, grandchildren are not enough. I think that happiness is an illusion. It is putting that carrot in front of your nose and dangling it there and never can you get a nibble. To force myself to enjoy something is the problem. It should not be hard to enjoy something. Like I said, if I even try to enjoy something, something happens to make me pay.
> >
> > And I am on Celexa. It sure isn't helping me!
> >
> > Thanks for trying!Valley Girl
It seems to me that you are wallowing in a lot of self pity. I'm not trying to say I'm perfect or anything, far from it. The point of what you wrote is incorrect, though. Enjoyment IS something you have to work for. It's not going to be thrown in your lap. Especially if you are unfortunate enough to be suffering from emotional illness. I've come to learn that the only way to achieve happiness & enjoyment in life is to go out & take it. Best of luck.
Posted by Joy on April 5, 2000, at 17:51:08
In reply to Re: What makes you HAPPY VALLEY GIRL??, posted by Sherry on April 4, 2000, at 15:14:46
I am sure you have heard, that this is IT. This isn't a dress rehearsal..this is the only life we get..right now.If your med's. aren't working ---how important are YOU to YOU?
Get help. Read everything about your illness you can. Don't wait. Research. Find a thread of hope. Seek out some answers. Make it your purpose. Since you have had children,
(I won't say do it for them.) having children is tough,raising them is tough,heck..life is tough sometimes.You have obviously toughed it out through the years...can you try a little more? For you?
Maybe I don't get it...as far as you are concerned...I haven't "walked in your shoes". But I do know that the human spirit wants the goodness,happiness.So don't try to "force" yourself to be happy..find some answers as to why you are unhappy.
Posted by Valley Girl on April 6, 2000, at 7:26:26
In reply to Re: What makes you HAPPY VALLEY GIRL??, posted by Joy on April 5, 2000, at 17:51:08
>I have been in therapy for most of my adult life. 30 plus years. I keep hearing the same thing over and over. I don't understand that happiness has to be hard work. Our parents selfishly put us here for their egotistical or plain stupid reasons and now we're stuck. Life sucks and then you die. But for me you don't die soon enough, you get dragged through hell for what purpose? So you can die! Believe me, I have researched mental health, physical and psychic (I am extremely intutitive and empathic). I thought this was my problem, because I react to everyones emotions around me. I hate knowing what other people think and what is going to happen to them. I have tried, through various methods, to get control of this "gift". Say what you want. I have been there and done that. I am just sick of it all. I am on meds. I have tried natural, homeopathic you name it. Nothing works for me. I am glad that others benefit from meds and positive attitudes. Depression, is what is here for me in this life. I guess I am suppose to learn something from it. Sorry for being such a downer. I can only see the yucky underside of the rock, not the beautiful shiney side!
I am not wallowing in self pity. I just want someone to understand that happiness is or contentment is a hard thing for some us even to understand.
Valley Girl
I am sure you have heard, that this is IT. This isn't a dress rehearsal..this is the only life we get..right now.If your med's. aren't working ---how important are YOU to YOU?
>
> Get help. Read everything about your illness you can. Don't wait. Research. Find a thread of hope. Seek out some answers. Make it your purpose. Since you have had children,
> (I won't say do it for them.) having children is tough,raising them is tough,heck..life is tough sometimes.
>
> You have obviously toughed it out through the years...can you try a little more? For you?
> Maybe I don't get it...as far as you are concerned...I haven't "walked in your shoes". But I do know that the human spirit wants the goodness,happiness.
>
> So don't try to "force" yourself to be happy..find some answers as to why you are unhappy.
Posted by linda on April 6, 2000, at 10:56:54
In reply to Re: celexa, posted by D on March 31, 2000, at 8:32:50
> For anyone who is not happy with Celexa, I've had wonderful results with Zoloft. I was on 50mg.
I have been taking 20mg, of Celexa for the past eight months, and the depression I had suffered from for many years has, thankfully, lifted. However, I have been experiencing jaw clinching and stopped up ears. Has anyone had this problem, and, if so, what did you do about it? Thanks, and I wish you well!
Posted by Emmi on April 7, 2000, at 18:41:08
In reply to Re: celexa, posted by linda on April 6, 2000, at 10:56:54
Hi. After 5 years on Paxil and not one more panic attack, I have decided to try to lose weight. I gained so much after starting Paxil and my doc says that it is almost impossible to lose while taking Paxil. Today he said he just saw a Celexa rep who gave him written documentation that Celexa works the same as Paxil but w/ fewer side effect. The weight gain was not a problem and decreased libito was not as bad as with paxil. Tomorrow I go from 50mg of Paxil to 40 of Celexa. I am worried I'll go back to having panic attacks but I have trusted this psychiatrist thus far and have to try. Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks. Emmi
Posted by Joy on April 7, 2000, at 19:57:27
In reply to Re: What makes you HAPPY VALLEY GIRL??, posted by Valley Girl on April 6, 2000, at 7:26:26
Someone or something must have really hurt you..for you to be so down on life. You sound angry..
Maybe you feel you deserve better? Everything good is work,even happiness. Maybe you just don't
know how to go about it. Or you're afraid of the "side effects".
Posted by erin on April 8, 2000, at 14:36:18
In reply to Re: more Celexa sharing, posted by Lauren Heuss on April 4, 2000, at 11:52:39
i have been taking celexa for 6 days and I don't notice anything yet. A little light headed, dizzy, headaches in the morning but I also have insomnia and restless leg syndrome. Is there anyone who started with similar symptoms and found that they could sleep better or that their legs felt better? I just increased from 10mg to 20 mg last night.
Posted by Valley Girl on April 11, 2000, at 7:49:01
In reply to Scared,huh? to valley girl., posted by Joy on April 7, 2000, at 19:57:27
>Why is it that everyone thinks life is suppose to be hard? I am an atheist and I get so much crap about that too! If you don't fit the "norm" people think there is something wrong with you. If you don't live the "happy" life, something is wrong with you.
I work two jobs. I never miss a day of work. Is that normal? I have been accused of doing to much to avoid my feelings. Maybe I just need the money.
People, especially Americans, think that happiness is a given. It is even in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution.
If we don't have it, we think we should get it.I guess what I am trying to say is, some people just aren't happy. Why take drugs or do therapy for something that is out of reach? Maybe we should just accept who and what we are and leave it at that. Who is to say that happiness is normal?
Valley Girl
Someone or something must have really hurt you..for you to be so down on life. You sound angry..
> Maybe you feel you deserve better? Everything good is work,even happiness. Maybe you just don't
> know how to go about it. Or you're afraid of the "side effects".
Posted by tom on April 11, 2000, at 16:59:51
In reply to Re: Scared,huh? to valley girl., posted by Valley Girl on April 11, 2000, at 7:49:01
> >Why is it that everyone thinks life is suppose to be hard? I am an atheist and I get so much crap about that too! If you don't fit the "norm" people think there is something wrong with you. If you don't live the "happy" life, something is wrong with you.
>
> I work two jobs. I never miss a day of work. Is that normal? I have been accused of doing to much to avoid my feelings. Maybe I just need the money.
>
> People, especially Americans, think that happiness is a given. It is even in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution.
> If we don't have it, we think we should get it.
>
> I guess what I am trying to say is, some people just aren't happy. Why take drugs or do therapy for something that is out of reach? Maybe we should just accept who and what we are and leave it at that. Who is to say that happiness is normal?
>
> Valley Girl
>
>
>
> If someone wants to be unhappy that's fine with me. I'm too busy trying to make myself happy to worry about anyone else. I just personally think that happiness is something worth working for. There are also people out there that value money and others that don't. I also think that money is worth working for, and that's also something that not everyone can acheive. Especially in this capitalist society. By the way, I'm also an atheist & I don't care what anyone else thinks.
>
>
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