![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 36. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tulip on March 12, 2000, at 13:23:38
first post here. 7 months ago i went to my gp for er, skin picking (there, i said it). he decided i was depressed, started me on paxil, 10/mg for a month, then up each month to 20, 30, 40. at 40 stayed because gp would not go higher than that. when i started paxil is when i realized i was even depressed at all. i had been apathetic depressed, the blah kind everyone thinks it is. not social, not taking care of me hygenically, sleeping alot, etc. after paxil brief moments of positive emotion peeked through. lows felt not quite as low. still, i knew it was only a dent and it was doing diddly for the original thing i went in for, the picking. 40 seemed to not work so well after a while too, i now had agitated states mixed in with the apathetic, being forgetful, frustrated, highly irritable, confused. i would sleep a lot to give my brain a rest.. i had to be the one to suggest seeing a psychiatrist, and that paxil for other things like ocd and such need higher doses than normal. so, 2.5 weeks ago i saw the psychiatrist for the first time. he upped paxil to 60mg and started me on neurontin for mood stabalization, 300mg/day for a week, stepping up by 300/day each week until i got to 1200, after which i would see him again. for the next two weeks i was having like deja vu. laughing, enjoying, speaking, sounding familiar to myself at times and thinking it sounds so strange, so distant, and realize it's because i haven't sounded like that in *years*, at least a decade!
3 days ago, exactly 2 weeks after the med addition and increase, i woke up and it was all gone (seems a mood, agitated or apathetic, is determined as i awake and ends when i go to bed for the evening... it starts all over the next morning). my period also started that morning (the 4 days before was also when i was at my *best* in the 2 week good mood itself, like dyslexic pms?!) what i had was *extreme* agitation, the worst i've ever had. i was very irritable, forgetful, confused, couldn't keep a though in my head for more than a moment before it flew away. worrid about the about face and the meds, i called my pdoc and he had me increase my neurontin to 900 that night (as i was scheduled to) and then to 1200 the next night if 900 went okay, and after a week to call again if something screws up again so he can adjust the meds before i see him again a week later. anyway, i took the 900 (midnight) and for the next 6 hours i was flippy, i was online with a support group for self-injury and was doing what several desribed as manic or hypomanic. i was wide awake, typing fast, stringing thoughts by relating words through excessive rhyming, still having some sort of meaning though, from kinda silly to "deep" and insigtful to angry at the human race in general. i just couldn't stop, my mind was on overdrive or something, flippy! by 6am i was just exhausted and the next day i was just tired and not sure where my mood was, i was like in limbo, on hold, went to 1200mg neurontin that night, and saturday the good mood was all back from the days before this happened.
i am just trying to understand this reaction. did the paxil increase help for 2 weeks or the neurontin? what was the neuontin's role in the crash? and the hormones in all of it? how did all this play together? i'm the kind of person who needs to understand why. because i don't quite believe or trust the effects of something unless i understand what makes it work or not work, the thinking behind it. so, if anyone out there can shed some light on this through personal experience or practical knowledge, i'd *greatly* appreciate it. now i know why people say this is so hard. not knowing what your emotions will do, especially when before at least you figured out a way to *cope* even if it wasn't great, it was known, y'know?
thanks all, tulip
Posted by Thomas W on March 12, 2000, at 15:46:24
In reply to neurontin, paxil, hormones, posted by tulip on March 12, 2000, at 13:23:38
> first post here. 7 months ago i went to my gp for er, skin picking (there, i said it). he decided i was depressed, started me on paxil, 10/mg for a month, then up each month to 20, 30, 40. at 40 stayed because gp would not go higher than that. when i started paxil is when i realized i was even depressed at all. i had been apathetic depressed, the blah kind everyone thinks it is. not social, not taking care of me hygenically, sleeping alot, etc. after paxil brief moments of positive emotion peeked through. lows felt not quite as low. still, i knew it was only a dent and it was doing diddly for the original thing i went in for, the picking. 40 seemed to not work so well after a while too, i now had agitated states mixed in with the apathetic, being forgetful, frustrated, highly irritable, confused. i would sleep a lot to give my brain a rest.. i had to be the one to suggest seeing a psychiatrist, and that paxil for other things like ocd and such need higher doses than normal. so, 2.5 weeks ago i saw the psychiatrist for the first time. he upped paxil to 60mg and started me on neurontin for mood stabalization, 300mg/day for a week, stepping up by 300/day each week until i got to 1200, after which i would see him again. for the next two weeks i was having like deja vu. laughing, enjoying, speaking, sounding familiar to myself at times and thinking it sounds so strange, so distant, and realize it's because i haven't sounded like that in *years*, at least a decade!
>
> 3 days ago, exactly 2 weeks after the med addition and increase, i woke up and it was all gone (seems a mood, agitated or apathetic, is determined as i awake and ends when i go to bed for the evening... it starts all over the next morning). my period also started that morning (the 4 days before was also when i was at my *best* in the 2 week good mood itself, like dyslexic pms?!) what i had was *extreme* agitation, the worst i've ever had. i was very irritable, forgetful, confused, couldn't keep a though in my head for more than a moment before it flew away. worrid about the about face and the meds, i called my pdoc and he had me increase my neurontin to 900 that night (as i was scheduled to) and then to 1200 the next night if 900 went okay, and after a week to call again if something screws up again so he can adjust the meds before i see him again a week later. anyway, i took the 900 (midnight) and for the next 6 hours i was flippy, i was online with a support group for self-injury and was doing what several desribed as manic or hypomanic. i was wide awake, typing fast, stringing thoughts by relating words through excessive rhyming, still having some sort of meaning though, from kinda silly to "deep" and insigtful to angry at the human race in general. i just couldn't stop, my mind was on overdrive or something, flippy! by 6am i was just exhausted and the next day i was just tired and not sure where my mood was, i was like in limbo, on hold, went to 1200mg neurontin that night, and saturday the good mood was all back from the days before this happened.
>
> i am just trying to understand this reaction. did the paxil increase help for 2 weeks or the neurontin? what was the neuontin's role in the crash? and the hormones in all of it? how did all this play together? i'm the kind of person who needs to understand why. because i don't quite believe or trust the effects of something unless i understand what makes it work or not work, the thinking behind it. so, if anyone out there can shed some light on this through personal experience or practical knowledge, i'd *greatly* appreciate it. now i know why people say this is so hard. not knowing what your emotions will do, especially when before at least you figured out a way to *cope* even if it wasn't great, it was known, y'know?
>
> thanks all, tulipTulip,
I really wouldn't know how to answer your question.
I would however, like to hear more about your experience
with neurontin. I recently had a doc suggest that
I try neurontin for anger/rage and after reading
up on it I couldn't understand. From my reading it
appears that this drug is given for seizure control.
This didn't make much sense to me.
Posted by Noa on March 13, 2000, at 6:46:18
In reply to Re: neurontin, paxil, hormones, posted by Thomas W on March 12, 2000, at 15:46:24
Neurontin is approved as an anticonvulsant, but is widely used as a mood stabilizer.
Tulip, do you think you had a hypomania? Maybe you are on too high a dose of paxil. In any event, the neurontin might help control any hypomania, because it is a mood stabilizer used in manic-depressive illness.
I also have a problem with skin picking, and have been all over the map in terms of conceptualizing what it is--is it self mutilation? Is it more of a tic? Something like trichotillomania? OCD? It seems to be something that helps me space out sometimes. Dissociating helps avoid the stress of life. It also feels unconcious and automatic sometimes, like I will catch my hand going to scratch my scalp or face. This last aspect of it makes me feel it is different from most self-mutilation and self-injury behaviors, but I am not sure, and welcome your input and that of others with this problem (Vesper--can you add to this discussion? Kelly?).
The hormonal aspect of your mood is an interesting area to explore. My friend who has epilepsy and takes neurontin, tells me the latest research on seizures and women is looking at the hormonal component. She is usually seizure free, on neurontin, except for just before and during her period.
Posted by tulip on March 13, 2000, at 7:58:11
In reply to Re: neurontin, paxil, hormones, posted by Thomas W on March 12, 2000, at 15:46:24
> I try neurontin for anger/rage and after reading
> up on it I couldn't understand. From my reading it
> appears that this drug is given for seizure control.
> This didn't make much sense to me.what i know is that neurontin is FDA approved for seizures. other uses are "off label", and include migraines, chronic fatigue, bipolar, depression, and restless leg syndrome. there are a few others too i just can't recall at this time. there doesn't seem to be much information out there probably because these are off-label uses, they don't have a long history, therefore there's not much data out there. i am of course just a person taking it for almost 3 weeks now. :)
tulip
Posted by tulip on March 13, 2000, at 8:33:53
In reply to Re: neurontin, paxil, hormones, posted by Noa on March 13, 2000, at 6:46:18
> Tulip, do you think you had a hypomania? Maybe you are on too high a dose of paxil. In any event, the neurontin might help
> control any hypomania, because it is a mood stabilizer used in manic-depressive illness.i'm not quite sure, that's kinda why i laid it all out here. :) i've only begun with getting treatment, and all i know is that i definitely have depression. after just one psychiatrist visit (which is all i've had so far) he did reveal that, "well, you are definitely depressed."
i have a theory, but i don't know if it's right, it's just guessing, and maybe that's all i can hope for. not hard answers, but theories, you know? i saw somewhere that bipolar can exist without a manic episode presenting itself yet. also read that paxil can have the side effect of causing a manic/hypomanic episode. (whether that would be in a bipolar or unipolar/depression i don't know).
my theory is that paxil was working a bit, and when my dose stalled at 40 mg, after a while perhaps i started having more days that were "overstimulated", a precursor to manic, let's say. then i got an increase in paxil to 60 mg which helped me "break through" the depression, and neurontin was there to combat the increase in "overstimulation" or manic side effect. but once my period began two weeks into this increase/addition in meds, all bets were off. neurontin was then increased immediately by 600 mg to stabilize the manic. whether the manic is part of me (possibly bipolar) or a side effect of the paxil in regular depression, i don't know. i would appreciate if anyone can reply and say, yeah, that could be what happened, here's why. :)
> The hormonal aspect of your mood is an interesting area to explore.
heh, this makes pms seem like a picnic! ;) thank you for replying noa.
tulip
Posted by tulip on March 13, 2000, at 9:23:54
In reply to Re: neurontin, paxil, hormones, posted by Noa on March 13, 2000, at 6:46:18
> I also have a problem with skin picking, and have been all over the map in terms of conceptualizing
> what it is--is it self mutilation? Is it more of a tic? Something like trichotillomania? OCD?
> It seems to be something that helps me space out sometimes. Dissociating helps avoid the stress of life.it can be any of these things. if it's a "tic" it's different, like a part of autism. i have been all over the map too and have settled on the idea that it is self-injury, perhaps less physically damaging than some of the si behaviors, but the same in that it generally can produce or be caused by other factors and feelings, and changes the state you're in temporarily. it's as if "they" are still sorting out where it truly fits in. OCD, BDD (an offshoot of OCD), are like saying it's a condition in itself. maybe. but for me, i believe that it is self-injury.
self-injury primer (i am cheating a bit and using _the scarred soul_ as a guide):
...is done to oneself, performed by oneself, physically violent, not suicidal, and intentional and purposeful.
...types of si (the physically viloent aspect) are cutting, burning, interfering with wound healing, scratching/picking, excessive nail biting, hitting, bone breaking, pulling out hair.
...can produce any or several of the following: relief from intense emotions, a coping mechanism, stopping, inducing, or preventing dissociation, producing euphoric feelings thru release of endorphins, physically expressing pain, communication, self-nuturing (caring for a physical wound which is "easier" than caring for the emotional wounds), self-punishment, reenacting previous abuse, establishing control.
...common characteristics shared among si-ers can be shame, isolation and alienation, vulnerability and loss of control, and ritual aspects (which can be impulsive or planned)
...the cycle: identify thoughts and emotions before, during, and after an episode.
...other factors infuencing, resulting from, and related to si: trauma, dissociation, eating disorders, substance abuse, suicide, borderline personality disorder, dissociative identity disorder, depression, anxiety, and any other psychological factors.> It also feels unconcious and automatic sometimes, like I will catch my hand going to scratch my
> scalp or face. This last aspect of it makes me feel it is different from most self-mutilation and
> self-injury behaviors, but I am not sure, and welcome your input and that of others with this problemif you care to, i have a web page at http://www.geocities.com/othertulip which includes my personal account of self-injury: one is the history of my behavior, another a graphic description of and si episode. click on "heal me" to find the links. (of course, please be safe before you read if you think it may trigger). what you describe sounds familiar, as you will see if you visit the page. yes, it can be "unconscious". cutting for example is the most common form of si, and it differs from picking imo basically in that cutting is more planned, ritualistic.
> (Vesper--can you add to this discussion? Kelly?).
vesper?! i know vesper! we belong to the same mailing list. :) hi vesper!!!!
tulip
Posted by vesper on March 13, 2000, at 11:06:42
In reply to noa - self injury, posted by tulip on March 13, 2000, at 9:23:54
>
> > (Vesper--can you add to this discussion? Kelly?).
>
> vesper?! i know vesper! we belong to the same mailing list. :) hi vesper!!!!
>
> tulip
Hi tulip, I was going to ask if you were the same one..but...
I don't know what else to add, it's very addicting and seductive for me, the adrenaline rush and all the blood and the sense of well-being after cutting myself.
Posted by kellyR. on March 13, 2000, at 19:06:08
In reply to noa - self injury, posted by tulip on March 13, 2000, at 9:23:54
> > I also have a problem with skin picking, and have been all over the map in terms of conceptualizing
> > what it is--is it self mutilation? Is it more of a tic? Something like trichotillomania? OCD?
> > It seems to be something that helps me space out sometimes. Dissociating helps avoid the stress of life.
>
> it can be any of these things. if it's a "tic" it's different, like a part of autism. i have been all over the map too and have settled on the idea that it is self-injury, perhaps less physically damaging than some of the si behaviors, but the same in that it generally can produce or be caused by other factors and feelings, and changes the state you're in temporarily. it's as if "they" are still sorting out where it truly fits in. OCD, BDD (an offshoot of OCD), are like saying it's a condition in itself. maybe. but for me, i believe that it is self-injury.
>
> self-injury primer (i am cheating a bit and using _the scarred soul_ as a guide):
> ...is done to oneself, performed by oneself, physically violent, not suicidal, and intentional and purposeful.
> ...types of si (the physically viloent aspect) are cutting, burning, interfering with wound healing, scratching/picking, excessive nail biting, hitting, bone breaking, pulling out hair.
> ...can produce any or several of the following: relief from intense emotions, a coping mechanism, stopping, inducing, or preventing dissociation, producing euphoric feelings thru release of endorphins, physically expressing pain, communication, self-nuturing (caring for a physical wound which is "easier" than caring for the emotional wounds), self-punishment, reenacting previous abuse, establishing control.
> ...common characteristics shared among si-ers can be shame, isolation and alienation, vulnerability and loss of control, and ritual aspects (which can be impulsive or planned)
> ...the cycle: identify thoughts and emotions before, during, and after an episode.
> ...other factors infuencing, resulting from, and related to si: trauma, dissociation, eating disorders, substance abuse, suicide, borderline personality disorder, dissociative identity disorder, depression, anxiety, and any other psychological factors.
>
> > It also feels unconcious and automatic sometimes, like I will catch my hand going to scratch my
> > scalp or face. This last aspect of it makes me feel it is different from most self-mutilation and
> > self-injury behaviors, but I am not sure, and welcome your input and that of others with this problem
>
> if you care to, i have a web page at http://www.geocities.com/othertulip which includes my personal account of self-injury: one is the history of my behavior, another a graphic description of and si episode. click on "heal me" to find the links. (of course, please be safe before you read if you think it may trigger). what you describe sounds familiar, as you will see if you visit the page. yes, it can be "unconscious". cutting for example is the most common form of si, and it differs from picking imo basically in that cutting is more planned, ritualistic.
>
> > (Vesper--can you add to this discussion? Kelly?).
>
> vesper?! i know vesper! we belong to the same mailing list. :) hi vesper!!!!
>
> tulipI still cut & pick,I thought that i was doing it cause when i was young i was sexauly abused & rapped,& cutting would make me agly so they wouldn't hurt me anymore.I don't feel myself cutting,it's like i'm not there.I geuss i'm not any help,sorry
Posted by Cindy W on March 13, 2000, at 21:08:19
In reply to Re: noa - self injury, posted by kellyR. on March 13, 2000, at 19:06:08
> > > I also have a problem with skin picking, and have been all over the map in terms of conceptualizing
> > > what it is--is it self mutilation? Is it more of a tic? Something like trichotillomania? OCD?
> > > It seems to be something that helps me space out sometimes. Dissociating helps avoid the stress of life.
> >
> > it can be any of these things. if it's a "tic" it's different, like a part of autism. i have been all over the map too and have settled on the idea that it is self-injury, perhaps less physically damaging than some of the si behaviors, but the same in that it generally can produce or be caused by other factors and feelings, and changes the state you're in temporarily. it's as if "they" are still sorting out where it truly fits in. OCD, BDD (an offshoot of OCD), are like saying it's a condition in itself. maybe. but for me, i believe that it is self-injury.
> >
> > self-injury primer (i am cheating a bit and using _the scarred soul_ as a guide):
> > ...is done to oneself, performed by oneself, physically violent, not suicidal, and intentional and purposeful.
> > ...types of si (the physically viloent aspect) are cutting, burning, interfering with wound healing, scratching/picking, excessive nail biting, hitting, bone breaking, pulling out hair.
> > ...can produce any or several of the following: relief from intense emotions, a coping mechanism, stopping, inducing, or preventing dissociation, producing euphoric feelings thru release of endorphins, physically expressing pain, communication, self-nuturing (caring for a physical wound which is "easier" than caring for the emotional wounds), self-punishment, reenacting previous abuse, establishing control.
> > ...common characteristics shared among si-ers can be shame, isolation and alienation, vulnerability and loss of control, and ritual aspects (which can be impulsive or planned)
> > ...the cycle: identify thoughts and emotions before, during, and after an episode.
> > ...other factors infuencing, resulting from, and related to si: trauma, dissociation, eating disorders, substance abuse, suicide, borderline personality disorder, dissociative identity disorder, depression, anxiety, and any other psychological factors.
> >
> > > It also feels unconcious and automatic sometimes, like I will catch my hand going to scratch my
> > > scalp or face. This last aspect of it makes me feel it is different from most self-mutilation and
> > > self-injury behaviors, but I am not sure, and welcome your input and that of others with this problem
> >
> > if you care to, i have a web page at http://www.geocities.com/othertulip which includes my personal account of self-injury: one is the history of my behavior, another a graphic description of and si episode. click on "heal me" to find the links. (of course, please be safe before you read if you think it may trigger). what you describe sounds familiar, as you will see if you visit the page. yes, it can be "unconscious". cutting for example is the most common form of si, and it differs from picking imo basically in that cutting is more planned, ritualistic.
> >
> > > (Vesper--can you add to this discussion? Kelly?).
> >
> > vesper?! i know vesper! we belong to the same mailing list. :) hi vesper!!!!
> >
> > tulip
>
> I still cut & pick,I thought that i was doing it cause when i was young i was sexauly abused & rapped,& cutting would make me agly so they wouldn't hurt me anymore.I don't feel myself cutting,it's like i'm not there.I geuss i'm not any help,sorryThere is a really great book I got from the library recently, called "Cutting," by Steven Levenkron, about self-injurious behaviors. It is available in paperback, also.
Posted by Janice on March 14, 2000, at 0:23:43
In reply to Re: noa - self injury, posted by Cindy W on March 13, 2000, at 21:08:19
hi everyone,
Geez...I never considered my trichotillomania to be self-injury before reading this thread.
I'll share my story...it's kind of a success story.
Okay, I have 2 distinct parts to my trichotillomania, the compulsive touching & the pulling
I started trichotillomania at 5
At 12, the pulling increased
I cannot remember a day that I did not do it since age 5.I have learnt that it is a coping mechanism for my ADHD. I do the compulsive part when my mind is out-of-control. I do the pulling when the tension mounts and I need to pull the hair out to get relief...and then the pressure begins to build again. I suspect I have to pull it out when the discomfort from the ADHD gets really bad and I need to take my mind of it.
The GOOD NEWS is that since I've started the Dexedrine, I don't pull anymore--nothing. Dexedrine gives me impulse control.
I still do the compulsive part (singling out and touching a hair) any time my body is STILL (ADHD).
I believe it's mostly a coping mechanism for my ADHD--to take my mind off the discomfort of living in my skin.
Everyone of my siblings has something weird going on with their hair, so I imagine it has a genetic component too. One sister has to get home (this is episodic) to pluck all the hairs off of her legs. This sister also picks at her face alot.
thanks for sharing your story kellyR. I'm sorry life has been so hard to an innocent child.
Janice
Posted by Cynthia on March 15, 2000, at 10:54:12
In reply to noa - self injury, posted by tulip on March 13, 2000, at 9:23:54
I thought I was alone in this. I have cut myself severaltimes, always on my left wrist , alwayst with something dull so I would have to push hard, and just enough to see the blood , over and over and over. So I have these faint scars and everyone, even the Psych think it has something to do with suicide but I am never suicidal when it happens just in a rage episode. I have never heard anyone talk about it before. I thought I was just really really weird. Thanks for the info.
Posted by bob on March 15, 2000, at 21:22:53
In reply to Re: noa - self injury, posted by Cynthia on March 15, 2000, at 10:54:12
My therapist has done a lot of work with adolescent teen girls and various forms of self-injury. She told me once that there are a number of reasons why someone would do this ... but the one reason I identified with was pain control. Creating pain that drowns out the pain that just happens to me without my understanding is just part of it -- knowing that *I* am hurting myself...knowing the cause, feeling (mistakenly) that I have some control over it, thinking that it's all some rational process that I understand perfectly well actually gives me some pleasure in the pain I can inflict upon myself. In that oh-so-twisted way, its more rewarding than it is painful.
eke!
bob
Posted by PattyG on March 15, 2000, at 22:02:30
In reply to Re: self injury, posted by bob on March 15, 2000, at 21:22:53
Are any of you folks diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder?
Posted by Vesper on March 15, 2000, at 23:09:08
In reply to Re: self injury, posted by PattyG on March 15, 2000, at 22:02:30
I read that last post about self-injury, and felt quite an adrenaline rush. It was like when I am feeling bored or depressed and suddenly remember what it is like to slide a needle into my vein, draw, watch the stream of blood enter the methamphetamine mixture, then press that plunger...instant happiness. Too bad it doesn't last and does a lot of harm. Same with cutting. I really want to cut myself lately, I long for that gush of blood pouring out...hot liquid salvation....
Can anyone relate?
Posted by Elizabeth on March 15, 2000, at 23:44:04
In reply to Re: noa - self injury, posted by Cynthia on March 15, 2000, at 10:54:12
> I thought I was alone in this. I have cut myself severaltimes, always on my left wrist , alwayst with something dull so I would have to push hard, and just enough to see the blood , over and over and over. So I have these faint scars and everyone, even the Psych think it has something to do with suicide but I am never suicidal when it happens just in a rage episode. I have never heard anyone talk about it before. I thought I was just really really weird. Thanks for the info.
There really are a lot of people who suffer from repetitive self-injury, especially (but not exclusively) young women. Actually I have a hard time believing there aren't any support groups out there for this. (Are there?)
On the other hand, as Vesper has discovered, you have to be careful. I was in group therapy for a while, and several times people were triggered to commit "parasuicidal" acts when others discussed their own self-harming. This could be a lot worse in a support group, where there's no therapist to talk to if you're feeling unsafe.
BTW I think it goes way beyond things like cutting, burning, and head-banging -- I've known people to do things like get into auto accidents, take drug overdoses, and get into unhealthy relationships.
Nobody was ever really able to explain to me why they did it (in a way that made sense to me, anyway), but it seems like there's often some sort of dissociation involved. Does that conform to people's experiences?
Posted by lizzie on March 16, 2000, at 15:40:34
In reply to Re: self injury/triggered!!, posted by Vesper on March 15, 2000, at 23:09:08
> I read that last post about self-injury, and felt quite an adrenaline rush. It was like when I am feeling bored or depressed and suddenly remember what it is like to slide a needle into my vein, draw, watch the stream of blood enter the methamphetamine mixture, then press that plunger...instant happiness. Too bad it doesn't last and does a lot of harm. Same with cutting. I really want to cut myself lately, I long for that gush of blood pouring out...hot liquid salvation....
> Can anyone relate?i can relate, big time-when i start cycling
downward i listen to nin a lot --the song
hurt, well, it says it all.
Posted by bob on March 16, 2000, at 18:31:01
In reply to Re: self-injury, posted by Elizabeth on March 15, 2000, at 23:44:04
> Nobody was ever really able to explain to me why they did it (in a way that made sense to me, anyway), but it seems like there's often some sort of dissociation involved. Does that conform to people's experiences?
Abso-f*ck*ng-lutely.
"Some sort of" is nowhere near strong enough from my perspective.
bob
[ps. that's about the only infix -- as opposed to a prefix or suffix -- in the English language ;^]
Posted by Mark H. on March 16, 2000, at 22:22:04
In reply to Re: noa - self injury, posted by kellyR. on March 13, 2000, at 19:06:08
>I don't feel myself cutting,it's like i'm not there.I geuss i'm not any help,sorry
KellyR.,
Your comments add insight and value to this discussion, so don't think you are not of any help. I've learned from you. Thank you for sharing.
Posted by Elizabeth on March 17, 2000, at 3:24:55
In reply to Re: self-injury, posted by bob on March 16, 2000, at 18:31:01
> > Nobody was ever really able to explain to me why they did it (in a way that made sense to me, anyway), but it seems like there's often some sort of dissociation involved. Does that conform to people's experiences?
>
> Abso-f*ck*ng-lutely.I take that as a "yes." :-) Can you tell me more about your dissociative experiences?
> "Some sort of" is nowhere near strong enough from my perspective.
Well, I mean, which sort(s) of dissociation can lead to self-destructiveness?
> bob
>
> [ps. that's about the only infix -- as opposed to a prefix or suffix -- in the English language ;^]And a damned useful one!
Posted by Cynthia on March 17, 2000, at 9:08:45
In reply to Re: self-injury - bob, posted by Elizabeth on March 17, 2000, at 3:24:55
Fascinating- always the same place , and always the same song- never thought of the song as a trigger. Never making the "real" connection until the next day and then what? embarassment, shame, feelings of stupidity? Vesper- I can relate to the feelings of euphoria, the release. Very hard to explain.
Posted by Kathleen on March 17, 2000, at 16:43:51
In reply to Re: self-injury - bob, posted by Cynthia on March 17, 2000, at 9:08:45
1-3 people have become triggered.
Anyone else think maybe self-injury should not be discussed because of this?
Posted by Mark H. on March 17, 2000, at 18:33:52
In reply to Re:This Thread is very Disturbing, posted by Kathleen on March 17, 2000, at 16:43:51
> 1-3 people have become triggered.
>
> Anyone else think maybe self-injury should not be discussed because of this?Dear Kathleen, I see your point, but I wonder if talking about it is triggering *because* the subject is taboo and under-discussed? In therapy I choose to ask for lots and lots of details from my fellow therapands, because it tends to normalize the experience and take the charge off of it. Some people don't like my inquisitiveness, but most perceive it as nurturing. I think, perhaps, that most people need to tell their story over and over and over again in order to put some air and light around it. Otherwise, the old wounds tend to fester in the dark of secrecy and shame, behind sterile labels.
I worked with a woman for several years who said she had been raped. When I finally asked for details, she said an old man on the street in a large city grabbed her arm and hit her on top of the head with his fist, because she didn't make eye contact with him as she walked by. Apparently, her militant sister decided that constituted "rape," and convinced my friend that that was the correct label to apply to the experience. There was no sexual contact attempted and the whole matter lasted a few seconds.
My wife was raped at 13, walking home alone from a pizza parlor at midnight in Fresno. Two men in their early 20s grabbed her and shoved her into the bushes next to the sidewalk, and one held the blade of a hunting knife in her mouth while the other had intercourse with her. It was her first sexual experience. She felt she couldn't tell her parents. She became pregnant from the incident. Abortions at the time were illegal and were provided by the same people who sold heroin. My wife had an abortion and started a heroin habit at 13. Her first consensual lover was a merchant marine 10 years her senior who told her during sex that it was OK for her to move. She thought he was very kind indeed.
Both women can say, "I was raped" and most people will politely leave it at that, imagining whatever they think the label means. I think it helps to discuss the gory details so that each can take back her power and not feel triggered by mere mention of someone else's experience. Obviously, one approach does not work for everyone, and sometimes indirection is more effective.
I am more concerned about the potential of this list promoting secrecy and taboos than I am about the possibility of someone being triggered by stories of self-injury, but that's just my opinion, and perhaps I'm wrong. I believe in the healing power of openness and communication, and the compassion and understanding they can invoke from others. We assume self-injury, by definition, is "bad." Why is that? What part is cultural? Where do we draw the line? How will we ever know without the details?
Thank you for your consideration.
Posted by bob on March 17, 2000, at 19:24:01
In reply to Re: self-injury - bob, posted by Elizabeth on March 17, 2000, at 3:24:55
> I take that as a "yes." :-) Can you tell me more about your dissociative experiences?
>... I mean, which sort(s) of dissociation can lead to self-destructiveness?For me, you're putting the cart before the horse. It's a rather vicious circle, but it begins with the self-injury. To mix metaphors even further, any prelude to my self-injurious behavior is like a baited hook, and without the right meds (or so it seems) I just can't resist a nibble....
The dissociation, for me, comes in an almost Cartesian mind-body split -- if my consciousness could somehow step out of and behind my body and get some sense of "physically" compelling me to continue, it would be all the more rewarding. I guess that's some response to the part of mind that's trying to say "HEY BOB!! This is STUPID! Stop hurting yourself!!" ... if I could separate my mind from my body, it could almost seem like I was doing it to someone else ... or, perhaps [just try to make sense of THIS], I was me and the someone else at the same time, feeling the pain AND dishing it out with a sense of disconnectedness between the two that might shut up that voice trying to tell me I wasn't doing myself any good.
Then again, the part of me that wants to inflict that pain is rather vicious, cruel, and unforgiving. From all the reports I get from my friends, that's just the opposite of how I am to others. Perhaps I just can't integrate the two me's. The "good" part of me just can't accept that sort of behavior in anyone, particularly me.
Hope that makes some sense,
bob
Posted by Kathleen on March 18, 2000, at 0:48:17
In reply to Re: self-injury - bob and his evil twin, posted by bob on March 17, 2000, at 19:24:01
I agree with you Mark for the most part, except that certain aspects of certain disorders probably shouldn't be talked about. For example, anorexics should not discuss diet tips.
I'm wondering if self injurers should discuss hurting themselves. To me, it sounds like 3 people were 'triggered' here. I don't know anything about this disorder, and believe a professional who does should decide if this is a topic for this board.
Posted by PattyG on March 18, 2000, at 9:06:29
In reply to You missed my point:Dr Bob please read this thread, posted by Kathleen on March 18, 2000, at 0:48:17
Usually, when there is a discussion about self-injury, folks will put a "warning" label with the message. That way, the people who are uncomfortable with the topic or feel triggered by the discussion can choose to skip those particular posts. I have witnessed both approaches to the topic (open and forewarned) and I have respect for both. Would that be a solution for the problem?
"Warning: Topic - Self-injury"
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