![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 77 to 101 of 251. Go back in thread:
Posted by Melissa on March 3, 2000, at 9:06:59
In reply to Re: mood disorders/klonopin,depakote,neurontin etc...., posted by Hanl on January 20, 2000, at 19:30:55
I was very glad for the psychological benefits of neurontin. I started to take this drug as a potential replacement for klonopin, to which I am extremely addicted, even though I am taking only 1 mg. I have been on it for nearly 10 years and have been trying various ways to get off it for 5 years. I have tried taking a variety of anti-depressants, which failed because they made me extremly tired and triggered compulsive overeating and rapid weight gain, even though the psychological benefits were very good. My doctor suggested trying neurontin next. At first it seemed great. No compulsive overeating, in fact the opposite was true. My eating disorder seemed relieved. My mental health felt very good. But as the days progressed I started feeling an increased speedy effect, teeth clenching and by the end of the second week I was unable to sleep at all through the night. I was tired and less functional not because of the drug but from the extreme sleep deprivation and feeling speedy anyway. I tried reducing the dosage to 25% of the recommended amount (30 mg), I tried taking it every other day, but the clenching of teeth and the inability to sleep just progressed further. People said I looked the worst they had ever seen me look, and I have looked pretty bad as I have experimented with various medications. It has taken three days off the drug for teeth clenching to stop, and for the last two nights, for the first time in two weeks, I have slept through the night one night and woke up only once the second, though I was having some difficulty getting to sleep the second night. The neurontin also seemed to trigger my menopausal symptoms which are also feeling speedy at night and nights sweats. That seems to be subsiding now as the drug wears off. But my eating disorder is back with a vengance. I can tolerate a little bit because I lost about 5 pounds during the neurontin period, but I hope it will return to just the normal struggle not to overeat. (I am in overeaters anonymous.) I am really sad that neurontin didn't work. Of course I was taking the klonopin the whole time...but there is nothing I can do about that. I can't start the withdrawel until I am stabilized on something else. But for those people who have had problems with weight gain on anti-depressants, I must say the neurontin did not have that effect on me. I really felt it was a wonder drug except for this speediness and sleep deprivation. I feel almost ready to resign myself that I will be taking klonopin the rest of my life like diabetics take insulin. I wish my doctor had not put me on it 10 years ago. I believe neurontin was available 10 years ago and I may have been better able to tolerate it then. I think I am much less able to tolerate changes in my system because of being my age which is soon to be 52. This is in spite of a very healthful diet, regular exercise and a rather youthful appearance (I usually pass for in my late 30's...that is when I am not looking exhausted.) Hope this info is useful for all you out there. Melissa
Posted by Jill on March 17, 2000, at 17:02:31
In reply to Re: Klonopin, posted by Melissa on January 19, 1999, at 0:27:49
> This string of messages scares me. I have been on 1 mg of Klonopin for 8 years and am unable to get off it. Even minute reductions (say to .87 mg) bring such dark feelings that Ihave to go back to 1 mg. I had been on it before and went into a treatment center (for other psychological issues -- sexual abuse memories etc.) and the center took me off cold turkey. I had a rough first two weeks there but never attributed it to Klonopin withdrawal. Went back on several months later when my marriage broke up. That was 8 years ago and I have not been able to get off of it yet. Started Celaxa an antidepressant under a doctor's care as a prelude to getting off this. It was a disaster. (See my post under Celaxa thread). I am angry that people didn't know how addictive this stuff was. I was told 10 years ago by a responsible psychiatrist that it was non-addictive unlike valium which Ihad been on previously. THat proved not to be true. I don't want to live in a world where I am obsessed with my feelings and mmy medications. I am just expressing myself here, not particularly looking for advice. I have other things I want to do with my life than live in a closed world of mental concerns.
I been on Klonopin for 10 years now. And it is not working anymore for my anxiety. I have been on the same dosage. Now my new Dr. wants to up my dosage to 3mg a day divided up. I was on .5mg 3x a day. I haven't experiene weight gain or loss of appetite on the lower dosage. Did you gain or lose on the higher dosage? How about appetite? I hope someone can help me with my questions.
Posted by Melissa on March 17, 2000, at 17:40:19
In reply to Re: Klonopin, posted by Jill on March 17, 2000, at 17:02:31
> I been on Klonopin for 10 years now. And it is not working anymore for my anxiety. I have been on the same dosage. Now my new Dr. wants to up my dosage to 3mg a day divided up. I was on .5mg 3x a day. I haven't experiene weight gain or loss of appetite on the lower dosage. Did you gain or lose on the higher dosage? How about appetite? I hope someone can help me with my questions.
I have just stayed on my usual dose of klonopin 1 mg at night. My doctor put me on neurontin to serve as a substitute for klonopin. I would try that if I were you instead of uping the dosage of klonopin, which is so heavily and dangerously addictive. Neurontin is also an anti-convulsant that is used to treat anxiety as klonopin is but it is non-addictive. When I took it I found it far more effective than klonopin and though I usually have weight gain issues on almost any drug, I actually started to loose weight on neurontin because my compulsive eating was lifted. I could not stay with nerontin however because it made me incredibly in my bones tired and I started to not be able to function. The positive psychological effects were tremendous however and if I could have stayed on it I would have. So I suggest you try that first for a couple of weeks (while staying on your current dosage of klonopin) and if there are no intolerable negative side effects then wean yourself off the klonopin very slowly. It is a dangerous drug to get off of. It can cause epileptic seizures if the withdrawal is done too quickly. And I believe my doctor was going to prescribe Beta blockers (if I have the term right) if I had been able to move forward with the neurontin. That was to help with the withdrawal from the klonopin. But I never got that far. Good luck!
I also meant to ask, have you switched from klonopin to a generic of it? The generics are not as effective and don't work the same or as well. If so I would go back to the brand name klonopin. It is more expensive and insurance plans don't seem to cover the excess but I had to do that.
Posted by Anne on March 17, 2000, at 20:01:41
In reply to Re: Klonopin, posted by Jill on March 17, 2000, at 17:02:31
I was on Klonopin for anxiety and told it wasn't as addicting as valium. I looked it up and found it was and asked to be put on buspar which ironically made me more nervous. If you want to get off of it you can by lowering the dose by cutting it in quarters and taking at first the whole and then 3/4 for about 3 weeks and then 1/2 for about 3 weeks and then 1/4 for weeks and then to nothing. This worked for me. You may experience some psychological withdrawal but not too much that way. I would also flush it after that. Occasionally I take ativan. Maybe .5 of 1 mg. I've been taking it occasionally for a few years and don't feel addicted to it but then I'm on a neuroleptic now and that is a sort of major tranquilizer yet not terribly hard to withdraw from if need be. I know the psychological part can be especially hard if you have physiological symptoms of withdrawal, too, but if you really want to get off of it I would keep reminding myself of it and the favor I'm doing myself without an addictive drug every day. I would try something else for anxiety if you need it. Klonopin is close to valium in my opinion in regard to dependencey and strength. But, of course, I am not a doctor. I'm just a pill consumer! Anne
Posted by Jill on March 19, 2000, at 12:59:01
In reply to Re: Klonopin, posted by Jill on March 17, 2000, at 17:02:31
>
My question isn't how to go off Klonopin, I need something to help my anxiety attacks that have gotten worse. My Dr suggested going up on my klonopin. I don't want to if I am going to get bad effects. I don't want to gain weight or have an increase of appetite. I binge already, I am always hungry, but I really am not, just think I need to eat. My Dr. also suggested neurontin, but I also have questions about side effects on that drug too. I wondered about Paxil also. I just want to get rid of these anxiety attacks and live my life again. HELP!!!!
Posted by Melissa on March 20, 2000, at 1:04:58
In reply to Re: Klonopin, posted by Jill on March 19, 2000, at 12:59:01
> >
> My question isn't how to go off Klonopin, I need something to help my anxiety attacks that have gotten worse. My Dr suggested going up on my klonopin. I don't want to if I am going to get bad effects. I don't want to gain weight or have an increase of appetite. I binge already, I am always hungry, but I really am not, just think I need to eat. My Dr. also suggested neurontin, but I also have questions about side effects on that drug too. I wondered about Paxil also. I just want to get rid of these anxiety attacks and live my life again. HELP!!!!If you check my previous e-mail, I spoke about the issues of eating with Neurontin. I am also a compulsive overeater (amember of OA) and the Neurontin had no eating side effects. In fact, if anything, it relieved it and I started to lose weight gradually while I was on it. There is almost no reported weight gain side effect on Neurontin. The incidence in which it occurs is absolutely miniscule. Because I have eating issues I was very concerned about this. If there was ever a chance of weight gain on a drug no matter how small, I gained the weight. I did NOT on Neurontin. So give it a try. I also was put on klonopin because it was supposed to be not addictive as valium. ANd in fact it was. And the longer you are on it the more addicted you become. I could not even tolerate a reduction of my medication of klonopin of less than 5% . The effects on my physiologically were horrendous, extreme irratability and so forth, with in a matter of days. I have known several people who have tried to get off Klonopin after being on it for years. One woman has nearly succeedded after slowly reducing her dosage over a two year period. Another woman suffered permanent hearing damage. During one of my efforts to get off with the slightest reduction in the drug caused permnent hearing loss in me and I will now probably have to get a hearing aid. Klonopin is only supposed to be prescribed for extremely short term use. Unfortunately, many doctors are not informed of that and therefore misinform their patients. The short term use is precisely becaus of its increeasing addictive qualities over time, that can in fact induce epilepsy if one tries to get off it.
Posted by Al on March 21, 2000, at 16:09:20
In reply to Re: mood disorders/klonopin,depakote,neurontin etc...., posted by michele on June 2, 1999, at 18:47:41
> > > YOU HAVE TO BE OUT OF YOUR FUCKING MIND TO TAKE ANTI-EPILEPTIC MEDICINES FOR MOOD DISORDERS(KLONOPIN,DEPAKOTE,NEURONTIN ETC...) A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO I WAS PRESCRIBED KLONOPIN BY A SHRINK (MAY HE AND HIS FAMILY BURN IN HELL)FOR ANXIETY AND ALSO PAXIL WHICH I DIDNT TAKE VERY LONG, WELL AFTER ABOUT 3 MONTHS I FELT LIKE I DIDNT NEED THE KLONOPIN EITHER SO I STOPPED TAKING IT. WELL NOW I AM A DOCTOR MADE EPILEPTIC AND HAVE TO TAKE MEDICINE FOR SEIZURES THE REST OF MY LIFE.I NEVER HAD SEIZUREE AT ALL NOW I HAVE GRAN-MAL ( THE KIND THAT MAKE YOU BLACK OUT SHAKE RATTLE & ROLLBITE YOUR TONGUE AND MAYBE EVEN SHIT YOUR PANTS) I WOULD RATHER BE FUCKING CRAZY THAN GO THRU THIS SHIT. AND YOU KNOW WHAT I STILL HAVE DEPRESSION AND ANXIETY.NOW THAT I LOOK BACK I COULD OF EASILY LIVED WITH THE WAY I FELT BEFORE I WENT TO THAT PIECE OF SHIT DOCTOR. SO A WORD OF ADVICE DONT LOOK TO LIFES PROBLEMS TO BE RELIEVED BY A PILL( I BET NONE OF YOUR DOCTORS HAVE WARNED YOU ABOUT THESE TYPES OF MEDS)
>
>
> wow, i am horribly shocked to have heard your story paul! i have been on klonopin for close to 10 yrs now. i am bipolar with anxiety disorder and after years of xanax and ativan, dr. recommonded klonopin to me. i have had it every which way, with depakote, and a slew of other anti-depressants....so far, im doin ok on it. i am currently on 2mg. at bed w/ 30 mg. remeron. and i have been up to 10 mg. klonopin per day when things were REAL bad. some days i do not take it at all. i did get off all meds about a year ago, thinking i may want to get pregnant, but was only off of klonopin about 6 weeks. i had terrible panic attacks and dr. put me back on....i am wondering if i were to ever go back off it..(which i am considering) would my body revert back to panic attacks, or would i have severe withdrawal...
>
>
> It helps me feel less shy around people, but I act kinda stupid in public at times. It's affected my ability to concentrate so much that I can no longer pursue my studies in Calculas, and related subjects.
Posted by Amanda S on March 22, 2000, at 19:05:06
In reply to Re: mood disorders/klonopin,depakote,neurontin etc...., posted by Al on March 21, 2000, at 16:09:20
I have read some disturbing news about Klonopin and my doctor just put me on it today, taking .25mg a day. I take lamictal also. What is this about seizures that our doctors don't tell us about when you wean yourself off this drug. I have had good luck with xanax, but my doc wanted to put me on klonopin instead because it is time-released. Sounds like a scarey drug! Please give me any info that you can.
Posted by Cam W. on March 22, 2000, at 20:49:23
In reply to generic version of klonopin CAM W help, posted by Amanda S on March 22, 2000, at 19:05:06
Amanda - What have you heard that was disturbing about the drug (outside of the seizures)? I find that Klonopin to be a safer benzodiazepine than Xanax. It has less chance of withdrawl effects and can be taken fewer times a day. Klonopin has some anticonvulsant activity and when used for convulsive disorders, the seizures can return upon withdrawing the drug. Klonopin is not involved in as many drug interactions as Xanax. Klonopin is used quite extensively for mental disorders to take the edge off of anxiety. 0.25mg is a nice, low dose. Hope this helps - Cam W.
Posted by Amanda S on March 22, 2000, at 21:42:17
In reply to Re: generic version of klonopin CAM W help, posted by Cam W. on March 22, 2000, at 20:49:23
Cam, If you look down at the following follow-ups at the bottom of my response you will not believe what these people have said. Especially this Paul person, but you have to go to the March 12 threads, I think. Take a look if you haven't already. Thanks
Posted by Melissa on March 22, 2000, at 21:46:20
In reply to Re: generic version of klonopin CAM W help, posted by Cam W. on March 22, 2000, at 20:49:23
>
> Amanda - What have you heard that was disturbing about the drug (outside of the seizures)? I find that Klonopin to be a safer benzodiazepine than Xanax. It has less chance of withdrawl effects and can be taken fewer times a day. Klonopin has some anticonvulsant activity and when used for convulsive disorders, the seizures can return upon withdrawing the drug. Klonopin is not involved in as many drug interactions as Xanax. Klonopin is used quite extensively for mental disorders to take the edge off of anxiety. 0.25mg is a nice, low dose. Hope this helps - Cam W.
Amanda -- Please read the messages that come before. Xanax is highly addicting, but so is klonopin. I would not get on it for the life of me. I am on it, 1 mg a day, and I have been for ten years. And I have been trying to get off it for 5 of those years under doctor's supervision and it has been impossible. If you do any research you will see it is extremely addictive, getting worse the longer you are on it. It is designed solely for extremely short term use, like a few weeks. Tell your doctor to check out neurontin. It is an anti-convulsant like klonopin and non-addictive. This list of messages that you sent yours to is filled with horror stories of people who have gotten addicted to klonopin, became epilectic afterwards, suffered hearing losses and so forth. Read this list carefully. And tell you doctor to do better research. The problems with klonopin are well known. I am not some self-absorbed obsessive who can't function in life. I am a university professor at a major university, I have widely published in two disciplines and I was given klonopin to get through a very rough divorce which coincided with a difficult period professionally. Four years later I started to try to get off the drug and found that I could not. I had been on it for short periods of stress before and gotten off rather easily. But I was only on it for at most a matter of weeks at the time then. So please use caution here. I have not heard a single person who has been on it long term without some really terrible story about it, and I have heard a ton of stories and have other friends who also have had terrible experiences about it. So really. Take care. Melissa
Posted by Cam W. on March 22, 2000, at 22:35:04
In reply to Re: generic version of klonopin CAM W help, posted by Melissa on March 22, 2000, at 21:46:20
Amanda - Low dose Klonopin, used as needed to take the edge off of anxiety is safe and effective. Some of the alarmist descriptions above are tempered with success stories. Long term use can lead to tolerance to the motor effects (drowsiness, dizziness, etc.) but not to the anti-anxiety effects. When people don't feel these side effects they sometimes believe that the drug is no longer controlling the anxiety and they then increase the dose. This is where the trouble starts. It is harder to wean oneself from larger doses taken long term. If someone has taken Klonopin daily for a long period of time, tapering is a must. I have found that those who are taking Klonopin to get high or as a way to forget their problems (instead of just using it to take the edge off of anxiety) are the people who have the hardest time withdrawing from the drug.This said, there are methods to ease one's withdrawl from high dose, long term Klonopin. Tapering of the drug should be done slowly over a couple of months at least if one has been taking the drug on a daily basis for more than a year. One tapers to a point to where they can't taper anymore without getting withdrawl effects. Then, a low dose long-acting benzodiazepine (usually Valium) can ease the symptoms. The long half-life of Valium prevents the low blood levels of Klonopin from causing the withdrawl symptoms. After one can get off the Klonopin, then the Valium can be slowly withdrawn. Valiums long half life prevents the withdrawl symptoms from being much of a problem. The problem with Valium in the 1960's was the high doses given 3 or 4 times daily. The drug built up in the body (because of the long half life) until there were liver changes and a person became physically addicted. In the scenario above, one would be using 4 or 5 mg of Valium a day (dived doses) for about a month (not much chance to build up to the levels seen in the sixties).
Ultimately, the choice of taking Klonopin is yours. Have a talk with your doctor. Write down your concerns and take them with you next time you see him. Have him address your concerns point by point. Many times a drug will not work as well if the person taking it has fears about it. Many of the above posts against Klonopin were people lashing out (maybe out of frustration; maybe they felt betrayed by their doctor - I don't know). When discussing medication, it must be done in a rational way; emotions should be curbed. I'd actually like Paul to post again, after 2 years, to see if he is still as angry as when he first posted. I don't know if I have helped alleviate your fears and I won't tell you to take Klonopin or not. You have to ultimately make that decision, others can't. Sincerely Cam W.
Posted by Melissa on March 23, 2000, at 4:18:29
In reply to Re: generic version of klonopin CAM W help, posted by Cam W. on March 22, 2000, at 22:35:04
>
> Amanda - Low dose Klonopin, used as needed to take the edge off of anxiety is safe and effective. Some of the alarmist descriptions above are tempered with success stories. Long term use can lead to tolerance to the motor effects (drowsiness, dizziness, etc.) but not to the anti-anxiety effects. When people don't feel these side effects they sometimes believe that the drug is no longer controlling the anxiety and they then increase the dose. This is where the trouble starts. It is harder to wean oneself from larger doses taken long term. If someone has taken Klonopin daily for a long period of time, tapering is a must. I have found that those who are taking Klonopin to get high or as a way to forget their problems (instead of just using it to take the edge off of anxiety) are the people who have the hardest time withdrawing from the drug.
>
> This said, there are methods to ease one's withdrawl from high dose, long term Klonopin. Tapering of the drug should be done slowly over a couple of months at least if one has been taking the drug on a daily basis for more than a year. One tapers to a point to where they can't taper anymore without getting withdrawl effects. Then, a low dose long-acting benzodiazepine (usually Valium) can ease the symptoms. The long half-life of Valium prevents the low blood levels of Klonopin from causing the withdrawl symptoms. After one can get off the Klonopin, then the Valium can be slowly withdrawn. Valiums long half life prevents the withdrawl symptoms from being much of a problem. The problem with Valium in the 1960's was the high doses given 3 or 4 times daily. The drug built up in the body (because of the long half life) until there were liver changes and a person became physically addicted. In the scenario above, one would be using 4 or 5 mg of Valium a day (dived doses) for about a month (not much chance to build up to the levels seen in the sixties).
>
> Ultimately, the choice of taking Klonopin is yours. Have a talk with your doctor. Write down your concerns and take them with you next time you see him. Have him address your concerns point by point. Many times a drug will not work as well if the person taking it has fears about it. Many of the above posts against Klonopin were people lashing out (maybe out of frustration; maybe they felt betrayed by their doctor - I don't know). When discussing medication, it must be done in a rational way; emotions should be curbed. I'd actually like Paul to post again, after 2 years, to see if he is still as angry as when he first posted. I don't know if I have helped alleviate your fears and I won't tell you to take Klonopin or not. You have to ultimately make that decision, others can't. Sincerely Cam W.Cam
I just can not agree with you. 1 mg that I am taking is not exactly a large dosage. I have tried tapering off slowly. I have done this under the supervision of literally one of the world's leading pharmacological psychiatrists. His name is Dr. Charles Olsen and he is involved with many of the studies at NIH (National Institutes of Health.) You can look him up. I live in Baltimore near Johns Hopkins and near DC which fortumately for me gives me access to some of the leading medical people in the world.We tried reducing my dosage by 6 1/4% at a time. After two weeks the effect of even the first 6 1/4 % were intolerable for me. It led to extreme irritability, inability to sleep, hyper-activity and a complete incapacity to concentrate and barely function. It actually became unsafe for me to drive because I lost impulse control. It became impossible for me to function professionally and it became imperative that I return to my "normal" dosage of 1 mg. We have tried to find a substitute for me to be on while I was withdrawing with the intentions that I would be on some kind of blocker (I think the term was Beta Blocker) while I withdrew. But we could not find a drug that did not have intolerable side effects, the most serious being deep in my bone tiredness. In particular, we tried Celexa which is know for minimal side effects and Neurontin which is also an anti-convulsant as is klonopin and used for anxiety but known through serious medical research not to be physically addictive. Klonopin is known through serious medical reseach to be extremely physically addictive, becoming more so as one takes over time and very dangerous to get off if not done carefully. Some people never succeed getting off if they have been on it a long time.
Klonopin's anti-anxiety effects do wear off over time. It is a little insulting to the numerous reported observations by patients and doctors as to this result (not just those reported here on this list) to suggest that the patients are imagining its reduction in effectiveness due to missing the side-effects some people experience. I personally never had any side effects from klonopin while I was taking it and I know many high functioning high level professionals who report the same. It is also a little insulting to suggest that those who have been upset by what they have experienced as long term negative effects of trying to get off this drug as merely expressing frustration and taking it out on their doctors. I personally bear no ill-will towards the doctor who first put me on klonopin. He was very careful in his research (which is why I chose him) and he reported what was known at the time. He too acknowledges now, not only from the research but the large number of his clients who he put on klonopin that the research available at the time was wrong and he is dealing with a number of addicted clients. (He is no longer my doctor because I no longer live in that city but we stay in touch, having a somewhat more personal relationship than most clients and doctors do.) What you report about valium is what was reported about the advantages of klonopin over valium over 12 years ago. What you report is rather dated information. There is much more significant and more recent research on the effects of klonopin since then. I was put on klonopin the first time for exactly the reasons you cite. That it was not as addicitive as valium, which if you are familiar with valium's history was also believed to be non-addictive when it was first introduced. Klonopin was orignally believed to be non-addictive as well. It is now known otherwise.
Obviously I am not taking klonopin now for anti-anxiety reasons after ten years. It has no anti-anxiety effect on me any more. I am just physically hooked to it. At this point, unless I can go into a medical treatment center for at least one month to go through the early stages of withdrawal, my doctor and I have given up hope of my withdrawing from the drug. I do not have that time and at this point and it is not assured that one month for the early stages will be adequate. I have a fairly close friend who is 20 years younger than me, who became addicted to the klonopin quite severly after two years. She has been tapering off slowly. She was also on 1 mg. After over one year she is down to the last .25 mg and is finding it extremely difficult to tolerate the last stages of withdrawal from the drug. Apparantly, the last part is the hardest to physically tolerate. She also is under strict doctor supervision. And the risk of epileptic seizures from withdrawing are quite real and are reported side effects of the drug. Another woman I know and her sister both were put on klonopin after the sudden deth of their parents and after a number of years both went through withdrawal. They both suffered permanent damage to their hearing, a not uncommon effect of withdrawing from klonopin. When I was switched by my prescription plan to the generic of klonopin, not only did I suffer severe withdrawal symptoms but I too suffered damage to my hearing. I happened to have been tested for my hearing a couple of month before as a routine ENT check-up just before the switch to generics happened and my hearing was evaluated as above average for the population. Now I am struggling not to get a hearing aid. As my prescription plan does not cover the name brand any more, I must pay for the difference between the genric and the name brand out of my pocket, which is not inexpensive.
The conclusion by the medical profession that klonopin should only be used for short-term use is quite well known among more sophisticated medical circles. Even the manufacurer in its reports acknowledges that. Of course, I am sure one can come up with cases where there were no serious negative side effects from usage of the drug. But then so did the tobacco companies with regard to smoking cigarettes. The question is the risk one undertakes when choosing to take this drug. Whether, when the incidence of physical addiction over long term use is fairly certain, the reduction in the drug's effectiveness over time a known possible result, and the fairly high incidence of quite troublesome withdrawal from it, is worth the risk of even starting it. Particularly when there are more effective and less troublesome drugs out there, Neurontin being the most notable in functioning bio-medically the same as klonopin but without the addictive effects. I know that the reports here at this site tend to be a skewed sample, but I am reporting the results of well known research. These results are also known among the medical profession in Europe as well. (I happen to have colleagues in the medical profession in Europe as I go there to lecture in my field.) I would be careful reassuring someone that there are many success stories when there are so many that are not successful.
As I do not wish to get into a debate with you, Cam, I will not respond any further. Amanda has enough information from our exchange to be able to make an informed decision through her own efforts. There are quite a few other sites, some of which can be linked to through this site that also discuss the difficulties of taking klonopin.
Amanda, I wish you best of luck in your endeavors.
Melissa
Posted by Sherry on March 23, 2000, at 6:17:56
In reply to Re: generic version of klonopin CAM W help, posted by Melissa on March 23, 2000, at 4:18:29
I was under the impression that Klonopin had a very long half life. The longest of any of the anti-anxiety medications. I don't know about withdrawal though because I have never become dependent on it. However, I did become dependent on xanax, and it was very difficult to withdraw. ~Sherry
>
> > Amanda - Low dose Klonopin, used as needed to take the edge off of anxiety is safe and effective. Some of the alarmist descriptions above are tempered with success stories. Long term use can lead to tolerance to the motor effects (drowsiness, dizziness, etc.) but not to the anti-anxiety effects. When people don't feel these side effects they sometimes believe that the drug is no longer controlling the anxiety and they then increase the dose. This is where the trouble starts. It is harder to wean oneself from larger doses taken long term. If someone has taken Klonopin daily for a long period of time, tapering is a must. I have found that those who are taking Klonopin to get high or as a way to forget their problems (instead of just using it to take the edge off of anxiety) are the people who have the hardest time withdrawing from the drug.
> >
> > This said, there are methods to ease one's withdrawl from high dose, long term Klonopin. Tapering of the drug should be done slowly over a couple of months at least if one has been taking the drug on a daily basis for more than a year. One tapers to a point to where they can't taper anymore without getting withdrawl effects. Then, a low dose long-acting benzodiazepine (usually Valium) can ease the symptoms. The long half-life of Valium prevents the low blood levels of Klonopin from causing the withdrawl symptoms. After one can get off the Klonopin, then the Valium can be slowly withdrawn. Valiums long half life prevents the withdrawl symptoms from being much of a problem. The problem with Valium in the 1960's was the high doses given 3 or 4 times daily. The drug built up in the body (because of the long half life) until there were liver changes and a person became physically addicted. In the scenario above, one would be using 4 or 5 mg of Valium a day (dived doses) for about a month (not much chance to build up to the levels seen in the sixties).
> >
> > Ultimately, the choice of taking Klonopin is yours. Have a talk with your doctor. Write down your concerns and take them with you next time you see him. Have him address your concerns point by point. Many times a drug will not work as well if the person taking it has fears about it. Many of the above posts against Klonopin were people lashing out (maybe out of frustration; maybe they felt betrayed by their doctor - I don't know). When discussing medication, it must be done in a rational way; emotions should be curbed. I'd actually like Paul to post again, after 2 years, to see if he is still as angry as when he first posted. I don't know if I have helped alleviate your fears and I won't tell you to take Klonopin or not. You have to ultimately make that decision, others can't. Sincerely Cam W.
>
> Cam
> I just can not agree with you. 1 mg that I am taking is not exactly a large dosage. I have tried tapering off slowly. I have done this under the supervision of literally one of the world's leading pharmacological psychiatrists. His name is Dr. Charles Olsen and he is involved with many of the studies at NIH (National Institutes of Health.) You can look him up. I live in Baltimore near Johns Hopkins and near DC which fortumately for me gives me access to some of the leading medical people in the world.
>
> We tried reducing my dosage by 6 1/4% at a time. After two weeks the effect of even the first 6 1/4 % were intolerable for me. It led to extreme irritability, inability to sleep, hyper-activity and a complete incapacity to concentrate and barely function. It actually became unsafe for me to drive because I lost impulse control. It became impossible for me to function professionally and it became imperative that I return to my "normal" dosage of 1 mg. We have tried to find a substitute for me to be on while I was withdrawing with the intentions that I would be on some kind of blocker (I think the term was Beta Blocker) while I withdrew. But we could not find a drug that did not have intolerable side effects, the most serious being deep in my bone tiredness. In particular, we tried Celexa which is know for minimal side effects and Neurontin which is also an anti-convulsant as is klonopin and used for anxiety but known through serious medical research not to be physically addictive. Klonopin is known through serious medical reseach to be extremely physically addictive, becoming more so as one takes over time and very dangerous to get off if not done carefully. Some people never succeed getting off if they have been on it a long time.
>
> Klonopin's anti-anxiety effects do wear off over time. It is a little insulting to the numerous reported observations by patients and doctors as to this result (not just those reported here on this list) to suggest that the patients are imagining its reduction in effectiveness due to missing the side-effects some people experience. I personally never had any side effects from klonopin while I was taking it and I know many high functioning high level professionals who report the same. It is also a little insulting to suggest that those who have been upset by what they have experienced as long term negative effects of trying to get off this drug as merely expressing frustration and taking it out on their doctors. I personally bear no ill-will towards the doctor who first put me on klonopin. He was very careful in his research (which is why I chose him) and he reported what was known at the time. He too acknowledges now, not only from the research but the large number of his clients who he put on klonopin that the research available at the time was wrong and he is dealing with a number of addicted clients. (He is no longer my doctor because I no longer live in that city but we stay in touch, having a somewhat more personal relationship than most clients and doctors do.) What you report about valium is what was reported about the advantages of klonopin over valium over 12 years ago. What you report is rather dated information. There is much more significant and more recent research on the effects of klonopin since then. I was put on klonopin the first time for exactly the reasons you cite. That it was not as addicitive as valium, which if you are familiar with valium's history was also believed to be non-addictive when it was first introduced. Klonopin was orignally believed to be non-addictive as well. It is now known otherwise.
>
> Obviously I am not taking klonopin now for anti-anxiety reasons after ten years. It has no anti-anxiety effect on me any more. I am just physically hooked to it. At this point, unless I can go into a medical treatment center for at least one month to go through the early stages of withdrawal, my doctor and I have given up hope of my withdrawing from the drug. I do not have that time and at this point and it is not assured that one month for the early stages will be adequate. I have a fairly close friend who is 20 years younger than me, who became addicted to the klonopin quite severly after two years. She has been tapering off slowly. She was also on 1 mg. After over one year she is down to the last .25 mg and is finding it extremely difficult to tolerate the last stages of withdrawal from the drug. Apparantly, the last part is the hardest to physically tolerate. She also is under strict doctor supervision. And the risk of epileptic seizures from withdrawing are quite real and are reported side effects of the drug. Another woman I know and her sister both were put on klonopin after the sudden deth of their parents and after a number of years both went through withdrawal. They both suffered permanent damage to their hearing, a not uncommon effect of withdrawing from klonopin. When I was switched by my prescription plan to the generic of klonopin, not only did I suffer severe withdrawal symptoms but I too suffered damage to my hearing. I happened to have been tested for my hearing a couple of month before as a routine ENT check-up just before the switch to generics happened and my hearing was evaluated as above average for the population. Now I am struggling not to get a hearing aid. As my prescription plan does not cover the name brand any more, I must pay for the difference between the genric and the name brand out of my pocket, which is not inexpensive.
>
> The conclusion by the medical profession that klonopin should only be used for short-term use is quite well known among more sophisticated medical circles. Even the manufacurer in its reports acknowledges that. Of course, I am sure one can come up with cases where there were no serious negative side effects from usage of the drug. But then so did the tobacco companies with regard to smoking cigarettes. The question is the risk one undertakes when choosing to take this drug. Whether, when the incidence of physical addiction over long term use is fairly certain, the reduction in the drug's effectiveness over time a known possible result, and the fairly high incidence of quite troublesome withdrawal from it, is worth the risk of even starting it. Particularly when there are more effective and less troublesome drugs out there, Neurontin being the most notable in functioning bio-medically the same as klonopin but without the addictive effects. I know that the reports here at this site tend to be a skewed sample, but I am reporting the results of well known research. These results are also known among the medical profession in Europe as well. (I happen to have colleagues in the medical profession in Europe as I go there to lecture in my field.) I would be careful reassuring someone that there are many success stories when there are so many that are not successful.
>
> As I do not wish to get into a debate with you, Cam, I will not respond any further. Amanda has enough information from our exchange to be able to make an informed decision through her own efforts. There are quite a few other sites, some of which can be linked to through this site that also discuss the difficulties of taking klonopin.
>
> Amanda, I wish you best of luck in your endeavors.
>
> Melissa
Posted by Cam W. on March 23, 2000, at 7:17:17
In reply to Re: generic version of klonopin CAM W help, posted by Sherry on March 23, 2000, at 6:17:56
Sherry - Clonazepam (+ active metabolites) does have a longer half life than most benzodiazepines (18 - 72 h), but it is still half that of Diazepam (+ its metabolites). I would bet (but not much - I do not have proof) that many of the people who are having problems withdrawing from Clonazepam are of the faster metabolizing group. Yes, the books state that all benzodiazepines "should" be used short term, but in the real world this luxury is not practical. If we could find a non-addicting (esp psychologically), non-sedating, and effective anxiolytic, no one would be happier than me. But we do have to work with the tools that we are given. Unfortunately, everyone's body is physiologically different and if someone has significant aberations (eg easier downregulated or upregulated GABA receptors or changes in the GABA receptor complex) in the GABA-ergic system, yes, benzodiazepines can cause havoc in the bodys and minds of these people. The only way we can tell if someone is going to have a reaction is to have them take the drug and sometimes unfortunate incidents occur (this is true for any drug). That is the risks of medication. I will never say someone should or shouldn't take a certain medication. I believe that all options must be weighed and an informed choice made by the person taking the drug. I hope I haven't stepped on too many toes and I am sorry a number of people have had bad experiences with Clonazepam, but many, many others haven't. Sincerely - Cam W.
Posted by Amanda S on March 23, 2000, at 15:13:34
In reply to generic version of klonopin CAM W help, posted by Amanda S on March 22, 2000, at 19:05:06
I have tried almost every mood stabilizing drug and I have been very sensitive to them. Headaches,exhaustion,out to lunch,depressed,shakey,you name it. I am at my wits end. Lamictal and xanax .25mg at night. Don't have a problem going days without the xanax. All the horrible stories about the klonopin really bothers me, but it has a longer life than the zanax. I really need an anti-anxiety so I won't constantly think about dying. I tried some kind of drug that helps that, but I was out to lunch on that one. I took .25mg half pill of klonopin last night and I didn't think about dying. I certainately don't want to kill myself I am just preoccupied with how I may die, cancer, horrible car crash, hit on the head. These thoughts constantly are on my mind. I try to distract myself, but it just doesn't work. Just constant worry. My 15 year old is learning to drive and I don't think I will be able to live with the fact that he will be driving on his own soon, here I come Charter.
Posted by harry b. on March 23, 2000, at 20:38:27
In reply to Re: generic version of klonopin CAM W help, posted by Cam W. on March 22, 2000, at 20:49:23
>
>.25mg is a nice, low dose. Hope this helps - Cam W.
Whoa. I've been taking 2mg for 5yrs. My new dose
is 4mg.
Posted by Cam W. on March 23, 2000, at 21:08:59
In reply to Re: generic version of klonopin , posted by harry b. on March 23, 2000, at 20:38:27
> >
> >.25mg is a nice, low dose. Hope this helps - Cam W.
>
>
> Whoa. I've been taking 2mg for 5yrs. My new dose
> is 4mg.Harry - 4mg is not an unreasonable dose either, but some people cannot tolerate Clonazepam withdrawl and really do have trouble stopping the drug. Most people, though, do not have problems with Clonazepam. When stopping the drug, it must be tapered slowly, no matter what the dose. - Cam W.
Posted by JIll on March 24, 2000, at 10:05:58
In reply to Re: generic version of klonopin , posted by Cam W. on March 23, 2000, at 21:08:59
> > >
> > >.25mg is a nice, low dose. Hope this helps - Cam W.
> >
> >
> > Whoa. I've been taking 2mg for 5yrs. My new dose
> > is 4mg.
>
> Harry - 4mg is not an unreasonable dose either, but some people cannot tolerate Clonazepam withdrawl and really do have trouble stopping the drug. Most people, though, do not have problems with Clonazepam. When stopping the drug, it must be tapered slowly, no matter what the dose. - Cam W.I have a question is Clonazepam (The generic of Klonopin just as effective or is brand name better to take?
Posted by Cam W. on March 24, 2000, at 19:31:28
In reply to Re: generic version of klonopin , posted by JIll on March 24, 2000, at 10:05:58
Jill - In Canada, by law, the generic version must be within 5% of the pharmacokinetic parameters of the name brand product (eg within 5% in absorption, distribution, metabolism and excretion). This essentially means that the two are interchangeable. The generic companies sometimes use cheaper fillers and binders. I have seen some people with allergies have problems with some of the generic products. Also, for some reason, generic Valium doesn't seem to work as well as the name brand. Much of this may be due to the fact that the resale value on the street is much lower for the generic version, but some of my reputable customers have said the generic version of Valium doesn't work as well. I do take there word for it, as I have not done any informal studies myself. =^)In Alberta we have what is called the Drug Benefit List (has a new, more politically correct name now, but I forget what it is) which contains the maximum costs that the government will pay for medications for those covered by Social Services, Assured Income for the Severely Handicapped and for Seniors. Essentially, the costs allowed are for the generic versions, where available.
The name brand companies do not lower their prices because they are multinational companies selling to many countries. If these companies lowered their prices in Canada, they would have to do so in countries where generics are not allowed (damn lobby groups). This has included (until recently) the United States. In Canada, we have had generic versions of older drugs for about 20 years.
The name brand companies can get around this pricing problem by forming what are called "ultra-generic" companies (eg Altimed) that are at arms length from the parent companies. These ultra-generic companies essential buy the rights to sell exactly the same tablet that the brand name company markets and sell them at a generic price. The drug, binders and fillers are exactly the same as the name brand product. These generics actually come from the same lots (batches) and machines that the brand name drugs do. During the manufacturing process the dies (stamps) that press the tablets are changed from name brand to ultra-generic brand, using the very same batch of drug. The ultra-generic companies market by saying that they are made by using the same process, but are actually the same tablet. Slimy business practice, huh. All this is done so that the multinationals can charge you (in the United States) more than is charged in Canada for exactly the same product (but under a different name). Thought you'd like to know - Cam W.
Posted by bob on March 24, 2000, at 22:26:04
In reply to Re: generic version of klonopin - Jill , posted by Cam W. on March 24, 2000, at 19:31:28
Amanda, and anyone else interested in or worried about klonopin for that matter,
There are some watchwords a lot of us here in Babbleland use quite often -- Your Mileage May Vary.
That doesn't mean that people who say they've had great difficulty with a drug haven't had those problems -- it means that it may not happen to you. It *also* means that when people like me stand up and say things like "klonopin has been the single most effective psychotropic medication I have been on", no matter how true it is for me, that it will be the same blessing for you. As Cam has so articulately pointed out several times on this thread, different people have different responses to the same medication because while some of us may share symptoms, our underlying genetics and brain chemistry may be quite different.
I can't tell you how klonopin makes me feel, because that's not what it does for me. Klonopin makes me NOT feel the constant raw-edged nervous buzz that had been so omnipresent in my life that I wasn't really consciously aware of it until it was gone. Cam talks about how, sometimes, folks like me who have this "loss" of anxiety believe the med isn't working, expecting that they should be feeling something, anything.
I guess that's another way in which this med has been a blessing -- the change for me was subtle but profound and immediate. I cannot, to this day, describe well enough the way I **used** to feel ... but I am very aware that it is gone. And that's a Very Good Thing.
I've read through a couple of recent editions of "handbooks" on psychopharmacology to research the meds I've been taking forthe past few years, and I haven't found a single medication in any of them that is prescribed for depression and/or anxiety that DOES NOT say its supposed to be used for a fixed time, two years at the most, and then gradually stopped. The indication in these handbooks is that one to two years on an antidepressant should be sufficient to cure anyone of their depression.
So much for academic, scientific knowledge.
I would hazard a guess that those "lifetimes" for being on a medication have more to do with grant cycles and publication pressures than with the reality that people with neurological disorders have to face after the funding for the study dries up. At least that's my experience as an academic and a scientist (from a different field than clinical psych) who has dealt with getting funded and published.
Anyway, in making these sorts of decisions, having information from multiple perspectives is important. After spending some time around here reading, you can't help but get educated on the sorts of issues you should address when starting or changing meds. It's helped make me an informed, intelligent partner with my psychiatrist when it comes to decisions on my meds instead of someone who just sits down and takes whatever script is handed over. That sort of knowledge helped me convince my pdoc that I had shown over the course of 18 months that I don't respond to SSRIs, and so a different class of medications might be better (now, I'm on nortriptyline for my AD). When the nortrip needed a boost, I was able to go to my pdoc with three different strategies involving 6 or so different meds ... when he hit me with "let's increase your dose on the nortriptyline", I hit him with my research and my own perceptions of what might work. We decided on ritalin augmentation, and it's been a very promising month since that visit.
Whatever path you take, good luck with it!
my two cents,
bob
Posted by Susan on March 25, 2000, at 13:08:38
In reply to YMMV ... for me, klonopin's a godsend, posted by bob on March 24, 2000, at 22:26:04
Bob,
I could echo everything you have said about Klonopin. It has been working wonderfully for me for almost 3 months (to replace Xanax and Effexor XR. I asked my Pdoc about ritalin for the days I feel too tired to do anything and it seems to be working. Are you taking Ritalin on a prn basis and how much? Any side effects?
Posted by bob on March 26, 2000, at 2:17:57
In reply to Re: Bob's godsend and Ritalin, posted by Susan on March 25, 2000, at 13:08:38
> Are you taking Ritalin on a prn basis and how much? Any side effects?
Hi Susan!
Well, given that I need it all the time, yeah, you could say that ;^).
My pdoc started me at 20mg/day split 10 at breakfast, 10 at lunch, then moved me up to 20/10. At this level, it's had a very "light" touch on me -- nothing like tossing down a triple-shot espresso (not that caffeine ever did anything for me anyway). Still, it has improved my mood, my concentration, and has helped me set aside my OCD behaviors ... as long as I'm not stressed. No side effects at all. I think there's still quite a bit of room for improvement -- with my energy level at any time, or in general when I'm stressed out. But my mood hasn't been this good on a day to day basis in a long, long time. I see my pdoc again on Monday--hopefully, I'll be going to a little higher dose on it.
Between klonopin and ritalin, it makes me think of song by a friend:
"Little miracles will build a cornerstone
Next in line to debts of mine
Little miracles are all I own"Right now, I'll settle for the little ones
;^)
bob
Posted by Parker on August 21, 2000, at 18:58:37
In reply to Re: listen to YOUR body, posted by Patty on August 12, 1999, at 20:54:59
I am curious. I just happened to stumble onto this site while doing a web-search. I am on Neurontin for Peripheral Neuropathy. My Neurologist has me on 1200 MG, 3 times a day (which is 3600 MG per day). He has me on it for the pain. I have never had any side effects or seizures. I have been on this dose about a year. Should I be concerned? Is this the same medication that is causing so many problems for some of you? Is it the mixture of it with other medications to be cautious of? Thank you.
Posted by Dena C on August 23, 2000, at 22:56:53
In reply to Re: mood disorders/klonopin,depakote,neurontin etc, posted by Kate on December 14, 1998, at 12:51:11
OK heres my story, a few months ago I was diagnosed by my family physician as having anxiety disorder. She put me on Paxil and referred me to a psychiatrist. Paxil worked wonders until I started gaining weight! Got off the Paxil and on Wellbutrin for anxiety and Klonopin for sleep.
I am going through severe Paxil withdrawl which my pdoc thinks is all in my head, today he even called me hostile, childish, and uncivilized! He is a military psychiatrist by the way. Soooo, dont know what to do now. I have never felt this sick in my life, I cry for what seems hours at a time, chills and sweats, elecitric like zaps to my brain, face, and hands, dizziness to the point where I cant drive and I have a 4 year old to take care of by myself! (hubby is stationed in Korea) No family around to help since we are in a strange place and my DR. is just a big jerk! Any suggestions?
mix
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.