![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 72. Go back in thread:
Posted by Cass on January 28, 2000, at 20:02:37
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression, posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 10:26:52
Any system of beliefs can be misused and exploited. Personally, I believe that there is probably great truth and understanding to be gained in A Course in Miracles. However, when I was a child, my mother misused metaphysical beliefs. Some of the beliefs became weapons, i.e. if any of us questioned her neglectful, irrational behavior, we were just "too spiritually unevolved to recognize her perfection." If she inflicted any emtional harm, we were just suffering the results of bad karma. If we were sick and wanted medicine, we were just too unevolved to see the illness as a spiritual opportunity. She used it as a way to diminish us. Unfortunately, the experience left me sour on the idea of A Course in Miracles. I'm fully aware of it probable value, but it takes me back in time to a place I don't want to revisit.
Posted by + on January 28, 2000, at 20:58:37
In reply to to +, posted by Anon on January 28, 2000, at 19:52:16
> this is ridiculous! Jesus only spoke in parables.
>
> He didn't expect anyone to take him literally.I don't agree. I think his point was that there is no way to gain salvation other than him. There are other scriptures that confirm this. You are free to interpret as you like.
Posted by Adam on January 28, 2000, at 22:15:28
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression, posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 10:26:52
Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies,
they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease;
whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come,
then that which is in part shall be done away.
When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child,
I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:
now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three;
but the greatest of these is love.I Corinthians 13
Anyway, a nice web site on buddhism geared towards Westerners is here:
http://www.fwbo.org/index.html
I thought it provided lots more useful information than I did, in case
anyone is interested.
Posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 22:47:46
In reply to Religion and Depression, posted by + on January 28, 2000, at 18:40:54
FYI, the Pope recently announced that hell is not a place, just an idea, kinda like Nirvana.
All books are written by men, interpreting their narrow slice of the universe. Yours is narrower than most because you revel in your dogmatic, simplistic beliefs. I believe Christianity has just as much to offer as any other philosophical set of principles, all of which have good and bad points NONE of which is superior to any other. The superiority comes in the practice of core principles not the mealy mouthed, sancitmonious crap that hyprocrites spew, while crucifying those who disagree with them.
Following are some examples of true love in action, I received today, something I imagine you lack because you are so blinded by your self righteous attitude, which you cloak in the supposed words of God ie: good. My apologies that the formattings isn't as good as it might be as I don't have the time to edit it. Lovely stories though, unlike many in the barbarous Bible.
"> > During my second month of nursing school, our
> > > professor gave us a pop quiz.
> > > I was a conscientious student and had breezed
> > > through the questions, until I read the last one:
> > > "What is the first name of the woman who cleans the
> > > school?"
> > >
> > > Surely this was some kind of joke. I had seen the
> > > cleaning woman several times. She was tall,
> > >dark-haired and in her 50s,but how would I know her
> > >name? I handed in my paper, leaving the last
> > >question blank.
> > >
> > > Just before class ended, one student asked if the
> > > last question would count toward our quiz grade.
> > >"Absolutely," said the
> > > professor. "In your careers,you will meet many
> > >people. All are significant.
> > >
> > > They deserve your attention and care, even if all
> > >you do is smile and say 'hello'."
> > >
> > > "I've never forgotten that lesson. I also learned
> > > her name was Dorothy.
> > >
> > > Second Important Lesson~ Pick up in the Rain
> > >
> > > One night, at 11:30 PM, an older African American
> > > woman was standing on the side of an Alabama highway
> > > trying to endure a lashing rain storm. Her car
> > > had broken down and she desperately needed a ride.
> > > Soaking wet, she decided to flag down the next car.
> > > A young white man stopped to help her, generally
> > >unheard of in those conflict-filled 1960s.
> > >
> > > The man took her to safety, helped her get
> > > assistance and put her into a
> > > taxicab. She seemed to be in a big hurry, but wrote
> > > down his address and thanked him. Seven days went
> > >by and a knock came on the man's door. To his
> > >surprise, a giant console color TV was delivered to
> > >his home. A special note was attached.
> > >
> > > It read: "Thank you so much for assisting me on
> > > the highway the other night. The rain drenched not
> > > only my clothes, but also my spirits. Then
> > > you came along. Because of you, I was able to make
> > > it to my dying husband's bedside just before he
> > >passed away. God bless you for helping me and
> > > unselfishly serving others."
> > > Sincerely, Mrs. Nat King Cole.
> > >
> > > Third Important Lesson ~ Always Remember Those
> > > Who Serve You
> > >
> > > In the days when an ice cream sundae cost much
> > > less, a 10-year old boy entered a hotel coffee shop
> > > and sat at a table. A waitress put a glass of
> > > water in front of him. "How much is an ice cream
> > >sundae?" he asked.
> > > "Fifty cents," replied the waitress. The little
> > > boy pulled his hand out of
> > > his pocket and studied the coins in it. "Well, how
> > > much is a plain dish of
> > > ice cream?" he inquired. By now more people were
> > > waiting for a table and the waitress was growing
> > >impatient.
> > > "Thirty-five cents," she brusquely replied."
> > > The little boy again counted his coins. "I'll have
> > > the plain ice cream,"
> > > he said. The waitress brought the ice cream, put
> > >the
> > > bill on the table and walked away.
> > >
> > > The boy finished the ice cream, paid the cashier
> > > and left. When the waitress came back, she began to
> > > cry as she wiped down the
> > > table. There, placed beside the empty dish, were
> > >two nickels and five pennies - You see,he couldn't
> > >have the sundae, because he had to have enough left
> > >to leave her a tip.
> > >
> > > Fourth Important Lesson ~ The Obstacle In Our
> > > Path
> > >
> > > In ancient times, a King had a boulder placed on a
> > > roadway.Then he hid himself and watched to see if
> > > anyone would remove the huge rock.
> > > Some of the king's wealthiest merchants and
> > > courtiers came by and simply walked around it.
> > >
> > > Many loudly blamed the king for not keeping the
> > > roads clear, but none did anything about getting the
> > > stone out of the way.
> > > Then a peasant came along carrying a load of
> > > vegetables. Upon approaching the boulder, the
> > >peasant laid down his burden and tried to move the
> > >stone
> > > to the side of the road. After much pushing and
> > > straining, he finally succeeded.
> > >
> > > After the peasant picked up his load of vegetables,
> > > he noticed a purse lying in the road where the
> > >boulder had been.The purse contained many gold coins
> > >and a note from the king indicating
> > > that the gold was for the person who removed the
> > >boulder from the roadway. The
> > > peasant learned what many of us never understand.
> > >
> > > Every obstacle presents an opportunity to improve
> > > our condition.
> > >
> > > Fifth Important Lesson ~ Giving When It Counts
> > >
> > > Many years ago, when I worked as a volunteer at a
> > > hospital, I got to know a
> > > little girl named Liz who was suffering from a rare
> > > and serious disease. Her only chance of recovery
> > >appeared to be a blood transfusion from her
> > > 5-year old brother, who had miraculously survived
> > > the same disease and had developed the antibodies
> > > needed to combat the illness. The doctor
> > > explained the situation to her little brother, and
> > > asked the little boy if he would be willing to give
> > > his blood to his sister. I saw him hesitate for
> > >only a moment before taking a deep breath and
> > >saying,
> > > "Yes, I'll do it if it will save her..."
> > >
> > > As the transfusion progressed, he lay in bed next to his sister and smiled, as we all did, seeing the
> > > color returning to her cheeks. Then,his face grew pale and his smile faded. He looked up at the doctor and asked with a trembling voice, "Will I start to die right away?"
> > >
> > > Being young, the little boy had misunderstood the doctor; he thought he was going to have to give his sister all of his blood in order to save her.
> > >
> > > You see understanding and attitude, after all, is everything.> "Don't lay your holier than thou crap on me."
>
> What is it that you are doing? Christians beleive that the Bible is the inspired word of God. Your books are mens ideas. I choose to get my information as close to the source as I can. The Bible's translation is known to be accurate because of the comparison of numerous documents. There are no doubt plenty of people more intelligent than me who are going to end up in Hell. I am not following them there.
Posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 22:57:38
In reply to Re: to Anon, posted by + on January 28, 2000, at 20:58:37
Of course plus as you really are a minus you would interpret it in the most narrow, nonsensical manner. BTW, further on the concept of hell it is a creation here on earth, that folks like you shape with your lack of imagination and insight and your historical tendencies to crucify or do even more hideous things to folks who don't march to your tunes.
> > this is ridiculous! Jesus only spoke in parables.
> >
> > He didn't expect anyone to take him literally.
>
> I don't agree. I think his point was that there is no way to gain salvation other than him. There are other scriptures that confirm this. You are free to interpret as you like.
Posted by b.b. on January 29, 2000, at 0:06:29
In reply to Re: to Anon, posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 22:57:38
d.j. if you spent less time trying to insult the posters and put more energy into making a sound point you might be worth an argument. Instead you allow your anger blind you to any sensible argument and instead make an ass out of yourself. True Christianity is derived from the bible no pastor or priest or even the pope (since I find the catholic religion to be very sacreligious) has interpreted my views and the media only distorts weak and easily influenced minds such as yours into anger and hostility against something it finds threatining. Yes I will admit that some very atrocious acts have been comitted in the name of Christ but these were comitted by men...simple men no different than you or I. Many things have been distorted by others if it offers them a chance at power. I am sorry that you are so jaded to Christian views I assure you that much of the views you tried to slam here (not much once you were done with the posters + especially) are not what I or many Christians practice. Organized religion will almost always breed some form of corruption and many will allow themselves to become pacified by their weekly sunday visits to the pulpit but that is a very murky reflection of what Christ intended and still perserves in many today. You seem like a well read individual if you ever decide to open your narrow mind I suggest you read these two books. "Lucifer Dethroned" and "A woman rides the beast" both by chick publications.
b.b.
Posted by Adam on January 29, 2000, at 0:35:33
In reply to Re: Religion and Idiocy, posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 22:35:42
I guess it's exactly these sorts of exchanges that turn me off
to "religion" (along with various other difficulties not relevant
to this discussion). Dogma. Invective. I honestly can't say
when I witness such discussions (which I find myself in also, from
time to time, much to my own chagrin once I've calmed down)
that this is religious or spiritual behavior as it was meant to
be or not.I was raised Catholic as well. I stopped being Catholic at age 14,
during the confirmation process, mostly to piss my father off, who
spoke out of both sides of his mouth when it came to Christian
practices, and thus was a poor role model for both the faithful and
the agnostic alike. When I got older I started to actually think
about it, in the context of the secular study of world religions.What I came away with, in regards to Jesus, was that (and this is,
of course, an academic, not spiritual view) he grew to become an
apocalyptic prophet who sought to reform Judaism in a radical manner
and thus save as many as he could from their imminent fate: the Hell
of Fire. This meant making a sincere effort to follow both the letter
and the spirit of the Law, the latter more so than the former. This
also meant accepting a serious burden: That you must, as he was
prepared to do, take up your own cross and follow him down a straight
and narrow path leading to the End of all things and a new beginning.
Anything worldly that encumbered this journey was to be dispensed with,
be it your money, your livestock, your own eyes if they betrayed you.
A uniquely passivist stance made a great deal of sense, as the might
Rome would never be overthrown without God's intervention. He may
have seen his own death as a necessary event or hallmark leading to
the final battle.Paul's exegesis of the Jesus movement saw the role of Jesus as Christ
not so much as a Davidic priest-king but a spiritual intercessor and
the absolutely essential agent of salvation. The hopelessness of
humanity, the indelible taint of original sin could never be cured
without Christ's sacrifice on our behalf. What was expected of his
followers, as far as Paul was concerned, was total and utter faith in
Jesus's message (as interpreted by Paul, who felt Jesus spoke to him
directly) and unquestioning belief in Jesus as the risen Lord. The
implication is that God does love us, but he also gives us a choice,
to follow with absolute faith or not, with dire consequences for those
who choose the latter. Goodness without Christ is utter vanity, and
for those who have heard the message and still do not believe, it is
no refuge from Gehenna.John's Apocalypse not withstanding (hardly a comforting message for the
naysayers or the halfhearted), Paul has essentially the final word on
the matter of Jesus' message. After that the cannon was sealed (there is,
of course, in the New Testament's organization, not a chronological but
conceptual order).Jesus' message, in his own words and in interpretation, is one of love
indeed, but it's tough love. Of course it's everyone's right to interpret
the Scriptures for themselves and find their own message, and that can
mean picking and choosing which parts are Truth, fact, allegory,
symbol, or lie. I've no clue how to do that, and gave up a long time
ago even trying. I do feel there's no explicit provision for such
interpretation in the New Testament, and thus no real guide except one's
own convictions or perhaps spiritual experiences.I am not prepared, and I'm not sure anyone else should be here, to say that
+ is "wrong". His or her words, though strident, aren't at variance with
the core beliefs of the Christian faith, as far as I an see. Paul himself
got hopping mad at members of some of the early churches for what he saw as
their deviance from or misinterpretations of the essential beliefs (being
quite confident of his own position of authority, and not afraid to remind
others of it.)Who is right? Who is wrong? Is Christianity really a big tent? Who can
say? It's too bad it has to be fought over. But perhaps a real aspect of
being a devoted follower of Christ is the willingness to engage in such
battles, so long as they are fought with the sincere hope not of imposing
a viewpoint but of saving a life. That's what Jesus did, after all, and he
was willing to get nailed to a tree rather than sit still and let people
burn. I don't accept Christian evangelism today any more than I did many
years ago, but I tolerate it with politeness now rather than sarcasm as I
did in the past. I think it's because I know that sincere evangelists aren't
trying to hurt me, they're really trying to do me a big, big favor.
> FYI, the Pope recently announced that hell is not a place, just an idea, kinda like Nirvana. Same crap, different pile.
>
> All books are written by men, interpreting their narrow slice of the universe. Yours is narrower than most because you revel in your dogmatic beliefs. I believe Christianity has just as much to offer
>
> > "Don't lay your holier than thou crap on me."
> >
> > What is it that you are doing? Christians beleive that the Bible is the inspired word of God. Your books are mens ideas. I choose to get my information as close to the source as I can. The Bible's translation is known to be accurate because of the comparison of numerous documents. There are no doubt plenty of people more intelligent than me who are going to end up in Hell. I am not following them there.
Posted by Cass on January 29, 2000, at 1:11:57
In reply to Re: Religion and Idiocy, posted by Adam on January 29, 2000, at 0:35:33
I'd like to thank everyone who has had suggestions for me. I'm grateful that this discussion has provided plenty of intelligent thoughts for me to ponder. This Sunday, I'm trying the Unitarian church. I'll see how I like it and go from there.
Posted by dj on January 29, 2000, at 1:20:22
In reply to Re: to D.J., posted by b.b. on January 29, 2000, at 0:06:29
Well excussssseeeee me, BB, but my points are just as valid and probably more so than yours and despite a few thrusts at the insulting comments that you and + post about those who don't follow your narrow logic going to hell, I back mine up with more diverse and credible sources. My anger is justified by the hyprocrisies I've noted again and again by such as you, so if that's jaded so be it. But then again that's your opinion which does not count for much with me, unless you can back it up with other than chapter and verse.
Just who are the likes of you to judge the Catholic religion sacreligious when the pope is supposedly infallable...according to some...
Posted by + on January 29, 2000, at 3:02:25
In reply to Re: to BB, posted by dj on January 29, 2000, at 1:20:22
"But then again that's your
opinion which does not count for much with me"Ditto.
Posted by JohnB on January 29, 2000, at 4:04:24
In reply to To d.j. (satans advocate), posted by + on January 29, 2000, at 3:02:25
I think whoever first said "Never discuss religion or politics" might have been on to something :)
Posted by Stacy on January 29, 2000, at 6:34:51
In reply to Re: Wise Advice, posted by JohnB on January 29, 2000, at 4:04:24
> I think whoever first said "Never discuss religion or politics" might have been on to something :)
Here, here!! As a Christian I'm advised in the Bible to "go & make disciples of all nations." What I have learned is that all you can do is present your point, & pray for people. Trying to shove it down someone's throat does nothing but cause strife, & turn people off to what you say. God Himself will not force anyone to believe, & gives us free will.
A friend of mine used to say that no one ever wins an argument. I think it would be best to close the door on this one before it gets out of hand; a lot of good things were said, & I, for one, don't want to see anyone defeat their own purpose.
Thanks for the wise advice, JohnB. Take care!
Stacy
Posted by dj on January 29, 2000, at 8:05:55
In reply to Re: Wise Advice, posted by Stacy on January 29, 2000, at 6:34:51
Amen, from the side of the irritable but not fallen angels.
> > I think whoever first said "Never discuss religion or politics" might have been on to something :)
>
> Here, here!! As a Christian I'm advised in the Bible to "go & make disciples of all nations." What I have learned is that all you can do is present your point, & pray for people. Trying to shove it down someone's throat does nothing but cause strife, & turn people off to what you say. God Himself will not force anyone to believe, & gives us free will.
>
> A friend of mine used to say that no one ever wins an argument. I think it would be best to close the door on this one before it gets out of hand; a lot of good things were said, & I, for one, don't want to see anyone defeat their own purpose.
>
> Thanks for the wise advice, JohnB. Take care!
>
> Stacy
Posted by cag on January 29, 2000, at 11:04:50
In reply to Re: Religion, Idiocy & the opp.- full version, posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 22:47:46
Whew! You is one angry dude!
Posted by dj on January 29, 2000, at 11:52:24
In reply to To Dj : Religion, Idiocy & the opp.- full version, posted by cag on January 29, 2000, at 11:04:50
> Whew! You is one angry dude!
Only when it comes to dogma, dude and folks who preach rather than practice. I'm not accusing anyone of being Satan's spawn...If you're up on your bible you'd know that Christ had little time for such folk. I grew up with and know many real, as opposed to pseudo, Christians whom I have plenty of time and respect for because they are open to genuine discusssion and don't afflict me with dogma, narrow minds and promises of hell.
BTW, the header above refers to a 1993 book by Tim Ward who also wrote: "What the Buddha Never Taught". I'll let him speak for himself about some of the issues discussed above:
xi - xii "Before I left home to wander Asia, my good friend Dan Matheson, a retired United Church minister, by way of expressing his concern over my journey, told me that early European maps often contained large blank spaces to represent areas where no explorers had ventured. These places were marked "There be Dragons Here."...In the East...the dragon is a symbol of transformation...If I wanted to encounter dragons, I knew I would have to leave behind all I had learned in college and in church...and learn to see with Eastern eyes...I debated going to Bible college and becoming a pastor, but instead chose to study philosophy...To me a faith that couldn't stand up to rigorous intellectual examination wasn't worth owning...After graduation I realized I had glimpsed only a sliver of the world's wisdom. I had traveled Europe, studied philosophy and studied Christianity, but now I felt confined by the Western perspective I had limited myself to, and hungered for more. I looked East and saw...its spiritual traditions were in bloom well before Socrates...and before Christ was born. Although I knew little of Buddhism, its dedication to penetrating illusion by focusing the mind appealed to me greatly. I decided to go to India, plant myself in a Buddhist monastery, and learn to meditate as a starting block for exploring Asia."
134 - "Buddhism only teaches about suffering and how to remove it," said the monk "Believe in God or not, as you like. Do you want to remove suffering? Then hear the Buddha's words..."
"The Buddha observed that life contains suffering," the monk begain again, "This is the First Noble Truth. This is not a little problem. The world is on fire with suffering. It burns and blinds...The causes of suffering are desire, hatred, and delusion. This is the Second Noble Truth. The root of suffering lies not in the world around us but in our craving and aversion and ignorance. We want to have things that are seperate from us, and we want to be apart from things that we cannot escape. Even the things we have that we like, they will be taken away from us, just as the health of youth is destroyed by sickness, old age and death...But there is a way to escape suffering, a way discovered by the Buddha. By cutting the cords of desire, hatred and ignorance we can be free. This is the Third Noble Truth. Simple to understand, yes but difficult to practice. The way to cut the cords is to follow the Buddha's Eightfold Path. This is the Fourth Noble Truth. All the Buddha taught was the walking of this path."
137 - "The ultimate goal for a Buddhist is nirvana," the monk began, "from ni -- meaning the negative and vana -- the craving that connects one lifetime to another. Nirvana is the departure from the lust that binds us to suffering. One must practice all eight elements of the path to attain this goal:
"First, right knowledge of the Four Noble Truths, and second right understanding of how to apply these Truthes to life with compassion and wisdom. Third, right morality; avoiding killing, stealing, wrongful sex, or taking liquor -- actions that create bad karma and lead to more craving. Fourth, right livelihood: avoiding work such as butchery, selling animals for food, slavery, or work that oppresses or harms living beings. Fifth, right speech: no lying, slander, foolish chatter or harshness...Sixth, right effort: not wasting past good deeds by commiting evil ones, but consistently treading on the path. Seventh, right concentration: the ability to restrain and focus your mind. Eighth, right meditation: the stilling of the mind."..."Meditation is to purify...Every action produces karma, good or bad. But meditation is nonaction...the effects of even one minute of meditation -- that can never be destroyed."
I neither claim these views to be right or wrong, however I believe they stand up nicely in comparims to Christian and other religious ideals and in historical terms much good has come from the true practice of Buddhism and Christianity too, for that matter, as well as other religions.
Posted by + on January 29, 2000, at 16:09:36
In reply to The Great Dragon's Fleas (long), posted by dj on January 29, 2000, at 11:52:24
The views I have stated, although known to be accurate, do not necessarily reflect the views of the Episcopal Church or the Christian Church in general.
Posted by Cam W. on January 29, 2000, at 16:14:33
In reply to Re: Religion, Idiocy & the opp.- full version, posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 22:47:46
> FYI, the Pope recently announced that hell is not a place, just an idea, kinda like Nirvana.
>
> All books are written by men, interpreting their narrow slice of the universe. Yours is narrower than most because you revel in your dogmatic, simplistic beliefs. I believe Christianity has just as much to offer as any other philosophical set of principles, all of which have good and bad points NONE of which is superior to any other. The superiority comes in the practice of core principles not the mealy mouthed, sancitmonious crap that hyprocrites spew, while crucifying those who disagree with them.
>
> Following are some examples of true love in action, I received today, something I imagine you lack because you are so blinded by your self righteous attitude, which you cloak in the supposed words of God ie: good. My apologies that the formattings isn't as good as it might be as I don't have the time to edit it. Lovely stories though, unlike many in the barbarous Bible.
>
> "> > During my second month of nursing school, our
> > > > professor gave us a pop quiz.
> > > > I was a conscientious student and had breezed
> > > > through the questions, until I read the last one:
> > > > "What is the first name of the woman who cleans the
> > > > school?"
> > > >
> > > > Surely this was some kind of joke. I had seen the
> > > > cleaning woman several times. She was tall,
> > > >dark-haired and in her 50s,but how would I know her
> > > >name? I handed in my paper, leaving the last
> > > >question blank.
> > > >
> > > > Just before class ended, one student asked if the
> > > > last question would count toward our quiz grade.
> > > >"Absolutely," said the
> > > > professor. "In your careers,you will meet many
> > > >people. All are significant.
> > > >
> > > > They deserve your attention and care, even if all
> > > >you do is smile and say 'hello'."
> > > >
> > > > "I've never forgotten that lesson. I also learned
> > > > her name was Dorothy.
> > > >
> > > > Second Important Lesson~ Pick up in the Rain
> > > >
> > > > One night, at 11:30 PM, an older African American
> > > > woman was standing on the side of an Alabama highway
> > > > trying to endure a lashing rain storm. Her car
> > > > had broken down and she desperately needed a ride.
> > > > Soaking wet, she decided to flag down the next car.
> > > > A young white man stopped to help her, generally
> > > >unheard of in those conflict-filled 1960s.
> > > >
> > > > The man took her to safety, helped her get
> > > > assistance and put her into a
> > > > taxicab. She seemed to be in a big hurry, but wrote
> > > > down his address and thanked him. Seven days went
> > > >by and a knock came on the man's door. To his
> > > >surprise, a giant console color TV was delivered to
> > > >his home. A special note was attached.
> > > >
> > > > It read: "Thank you so much for assisting me on
> > > > the highway the other night. The rain drenched not
> > > > only my clothes, but also my spirits. Then
> > > > you came along. Because of you, I was able to make
> > > > it to my dying husband's bedside just before he
> > > >passed away. God bless you for helping me and
> > > > unselfishly serving others."
> > > > Sincerely, Mrs. Nat King Cole.
> > > >
> > > > Third Important Lesson ~ Always Remember Those
> > > > Who Serve You
> > > >
> > > > In the days when an ice cream sundae cost much
> > > > less, a 10-year old boy entered a hotel coffee shop
> > > > and sat at a table. A waitress put a glass of
> > > > water in front of him. "How much is an ice cream
> > > >sundae?" he asked.
> > > > "Fifty cents," replied the waitress. The little
> > > > boy pulled his hand out of
> > > > his pocket and studied the coins in it. "Well, how
> > > > much is a plain dish of
> > > > ice cream?" he inquired. By now more people were
> > > > waiting for a table and the waitress was growing
> > > >impatient.
> > > > "Thirty-five cents," she brusquely replied."
> > > > The little boy again counted his coins. "I'll have
> > > > the plain ice cream,"
> > > > he said. The waitress brought the ice cream, put
> > > >the
> > > > bill on the table and walked away.
> > > >
> > > > The boy finished the ice cream, paid the cashier
> > > > and left. When the waitress came back, she began to
> > > > cry as she wiped down the
> > > > table. There, placed beside the empty dish, were
> > > >two nickels and five pennies - You see,he couldn't
> > > >have the sundae, because he had to have enough left
> > > >to leave her a tip.
> > > >
> > > > Fourth Important Lesson ~ The Obstacle In Our
> > > > Path
> > > >
> > > > In ancient times, a King had a boulder placed on a
> > > > roadway.Then he hid himself and watched to see if
> > > > anyone would remove the huge rock.
> > > > Some of the king's wealthiest merchants and
> > > > courtiers came by and simply walked around it.
> > > >
> > > > Many loudly blamed the king for not keeping the
> > > > roads clear, but none did anything about getting the
> > > > stone out of the way.
> > > > Then a peasant came along carrying a load of
> > > > vegetables. Upon approaching the boulder, the
> > > >peasant laid down his burden and tried to move the
> > > >stone
> > > > to the side of the road. After much pushing and
> > > > straining, he finally succeeded.
> > > >
> > > > After the peasant picked up his load of vegetables,
> > > > he noticed a purse lying in the road where the
> > > >boulder had been.The purse contained many gold coins
> > > >and a note from the king indicating
> > > > that the gold was for the person who removed the
> > > >boulder from the roadway. The
> > > > peasant learned what many of us never understand.
> > > >
> > > > Every obstacle presents an opportunity to improve
> > > > our condition.
> > > >
> > > > Fifth Important Lesson ~ Giving When It Counts
> > > >
> > > > Many years ago, when I worked as a volunteer at a
> > > > hospital, I got to know a
> > > > little girl named Liz who was suffering from a rare
> > > > and serious disease. Her only chance of recovery
> > > >appeared to be a blood transfusion from her
> > > > 5-year old brother, who had miraculously survived
> > > > the same disease and had developed the antibodies
> > > > needed to combat the illness. The doctor
> > > > explained the situation to her little brother, and
> > > > asked the little boy if he would be willing to give
> > > > his blood to his sister. I saw him hesitate for
> > > >only a moment before taking a deep breath and
> > > >saying,
> > > > "Yes, I'll do it if it will save her..."
> > > >
> > > > As the transfusion progressed, he lay in bed next to his sister and smiled, as we all did, seeing the
> > > > color returning to her cheeks. Then,his face grew pale and his smile faded. He looked up at the doctor and asked with a trembling voice, "Will I start to die right away?"
> > > >
> > > > Being young, the little boy had misunderstood the doctor; he thought he was going to have to give his sister all of his blood in order to save her.
> > > >
> > > > You see understanding and attitude, after all, is everything.
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Don't lay your holier than thou crap on me."
> >
> > What is it that you are doing? Christians beleive that the Bible is the inspired word of God. Your books are mens ideas. I choose to get my information as close to the source as I can. The Bible's translation is known to be accurate because of the comparison of numerous documents. There are no doubt plenty of people more intelligent than me who are going to end up in Hell. I am not following them there.dj - Just read your parables and they really moved me. Thank you for the dose of humility, much appreciated. Sincerely - Cam W.
Posted by dj on January 29, 2000, at 16:27:22
In reply to Re: Religion, Idiocy & the opp.- full version, posted by Cam W. on January 29, 2000, at 16:14:33
> dj - Just read your parables and they really moved me. Thank you for the dose of humility, >much appreciated. Sincerely - Cam W.Thanks Cam. I'm not sure of the orginal source (maybe the Reader's Digest by the sounds of them) or whether they are all true or not. However, they did move me to a teary eye (particularly the one about the cleaning lady, & those about the young boys) so I felt they were worth sharing and germane to the discussion. Wisdom comes from many sources and personally I try not to discount any, even if I do occasionally allow my ire to show when I feel I'm being preached at.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 30, 2000, at 2:56:15
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression -- for B.B., posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 16:12:55
> Your media-fed ignorance is showing...
> Your narrow mindness is showing...
>
> Don't lay your holier than thou crap on me.> All books are written by men, interpreting their narrow slice of the universe. Yours is narrower than most because you revel in your dogmatic, simplistic beliefs...
>
> Following are some examples of true love in action, I received today, something I imagine you lack because you are so blinded by your self righteous attitude...> Of course plus as you really are a minus you would interpret it in the most narrow, nonsensical manner. BTW, further on the concept of hell it is a creation here on earth, that folks like you shape with your lack of imagination and insight and your historical tendencies to crucify or do even more hideous things to folks who don't march to your tunes.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to try to block dj from posting any further.
For this to be a supportive forum, people need to be civil. There aren't many rules here, but that's one of them. And dj was warned before:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20000101/msgs/18665.html
Bob
Posted by dj on January 30, 2000, at 5:43:34
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by Dr. Bob on January 30, 2000, at 2:56:15
Sorry there, Dr. Bob but religious dogma is a flash point for me, not to mention the source of many 'civil' wars
> I'm afraid I'm going to have to try to block dj from posting any further.
>
> For this to be a supportive forum, people need to be civil. There aren't many rules here, but that's one of them. And dj was warned before:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20000101/msgs/18665.html
>
> Bob
Posted by dj on January 30, 2000, at 6:07:10
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by dj on January 30, 2000, at 5:43:34
Looking at the parts of the posts you pulled, together, I have to admit I did go over the top on this one. BIG trigger point for me, & good learning, on reflection. My apologies to + and BB for being excessively agressive in rebutting their beliefs and challenging their characters to the degree I did, whether I agree with them or not. Perhaps it's no small coincidence that I encountered a self-proclaimed Christian missionary on the transit system tonight who insisted on letting me know that beyond all my doubts Jesus loves me. So be it.
You are welcome to try and block me. Frankly it's impossible because I could always come in on a different machine &/or different alias, if I really wanted. However, I need a break from all of this diatribe and need to focus all my aggess energies on more positive things, particularly now that I've kicked the ADs and am feeling MUCH better. So to save you the trouble, I'll happily self-censure myself for now. That way, we all get a break!
Posted by Noa on January 30, 2000, at 8:10:00
In reply to P.S. -- Mea Culpa on the way to bed..., posted by dj on January 30, 2000, at 6:07:10
DJ, despite your disagreeable manner at times, I will miss your presence here. You are obviously smart and well read, and articulate. Interesting that you are off ADs, and although you report feeling better that way, I wonder if your irritability is related to being off the ADs. You have a lot to offer, but you need to tame your agressive tiger some, or channel it into something constructive.
Posted by Elizabeth on January 30, 2000, at 8:46:36
In reply to Re: P.S. -- Mea Culpa on the way to bed..., posted by Noa on January 30, 2000, at 8:10:00
Of course it's related to being off ADs. DJ, I'm sorry to see you go too because I feel you have a lot to offer. You say you feel better, but I can't imagine that you would feel better having such powerful reactions to interpersonal conflict. Isn't that overwhelming for you? (Feel free to write to me if you'd like. Currently shapere@aol.com, should remain so for at least another month.)
I think too little attention is paid in clinical practice to irritability as a symptom of emotional illness. I think that pathological irritability is probably distinct from both depression and bipolar disorder, though it can occur in conjunction with both as well as with other conditions (anxiety and personality disorders, schizophrenia). (As such, it's hard to treat: sometimes ADs are the solution, other times AEDs, lithium, benzos, antipsychotics, stimulants, ....)
There seems to be a tendency to blame the patient for being irritable rather than trying to help him or her (of course, it's hard to help someone who seems not to want to be helped, but many patients do display insight and realize that their irritability is extreme and problematic).
That said, I think DJ has something to be angry about, and it's the way that he (she?) is expressing it that is of concern, not the content of the anger. As an atheist, I'm constantly offended and insulted by "Christians" and others trying to ram their irrational "faith" down my throat or make condescending remarks that I am evil and going to hell. Atheists don't harrass people about their beliefs, they don't start wars, they don't engage in "ethnic cleansing" and the like, etc., so this seems like rank hypocrisy not to mention plain old rudeness.
It seems to me that those who foster religious beliefs owe me and other non-"spiritual" folks at least the courtesy of treating us as though our beliefs (*not* "faith") are not somehow inferior to theirs. This means, among other things, that I don't *want* you to pray for my "soul" - that's condescending. You may recall how disgusted and horrified non-Christians were (some Christians were too, in fact) when the Southern Baptist Convention urged members to pray for their souls. Same principle. It's your hubris that causes you to presume that you have the power to "save" others.
Posted by dj on January 30, 2000, at 13:13:47
In reply to irritability - DJ, Noa, posted by Elizabeth on January 30, 2000, at 8:46:36
Just had to make a comment on this. I appreciate both of your comments and posts and will still monitor the site, though a bit less. And elizabeth thanks for the offer, I may take you up on it at some time, but not right away.
Frankly, I don't see it about being off ADs as generally I do feel much better physically, mentally and emotionally, than I have in some time. I still have a St. Johns-Worts - 5HTP combo as a back-up. The ADs and my course of study of the past year both contributed a lot of physical and mental stress to me -- the former was supposed to help with the latter and did some (more on an emotional and cognitive level), much of which has been alleviated now.
I've been getting a lot of physical therapy -- chiropractory, massage and acupuncuture which is also helping with my physical and mental flexibility and am working on looking less like the Buddha and acting more like him. I've a ways to go yet on both fronts ; ). Eating less on the run and working out more regularly will help. Both have been difficult until recently because of immense fatigue, which I also attribute somewhat to coming off ADs, which I am also counterbalancing with lots of vitamins and herbal combos, like gingko.
The irritability I would attribute to many factors and am working on that through some groups with folks I know well and respect deeply, as well as on my own. Religion is a particular flash point as it was shoved down my throat, during my early years. My mother/father are/were wonderful folks but could be very dogmatic and unbending on religious issues and my Mom once almost disowned me due to a disagreement on this issue, which to me has always been about free choice.
My father, who had 7 priests (2 or 3 who were the former heads of a Catholic University on which he served on the Board of Governors for years, as well as many community boards and being one of two Canadian reps. on the international board of the Knights of Columbus, and an honourary Knight of Malta, etc.) talked her out of it. Recently she told me if she hadn't met my father she was leaning toward the nunnery. Instead she had 9 kids and as the oldest male in the middle of 6 females, prior to the arrival of my male sibs. my aggress energies were often shut down and one was expected to be seen not heard, unless you had something nice to say.
I was often blamed when 'emotional' encounters ocurred, rightfully or wrongfully. I was often the target of my father's wrath when he was home acting as the enforcer usually more with harsh words than nought. As a lawyer, who became a provincial Supreme Court justice, he was good at prosecuting and cutting to the quick, at times, as am I.
He was also a very just and compassionate man, generally, though a bit dogmatic in the expression of his views at times, as am I. He was also generally very liberal with a healthy dose of conservatism, as am I. Regardless I don't blame my father nor my mother for the way they were, or I am. They had lots of stressors in their lives, beyond nine obvious ones and are & were wonderful people, beneath sometimes foreboding countenances, as am I.
I have a love-hate relationship with spirituality/religion/theology and authority. I am a doubting Thomas who sometimes seeks but often does not find much that appeals in what passes for religions insights. However, most varieties of Buddhism offer insights which I find the most attractive and least dogmatic (which explains the former)because they are thougtfully and beautifully explained and always leave the onus on the seeker to look for themself. And they condemn none and welcome all. And historically they seem to have one of the most unblemished records of oppression of those who disagree with thier views, of which I am aware.
So goes it...the very best to EVERY, single one of you on your paths. Ours may cross again, yet. If anyone has any particularly interesting postings (especially on the science of dealing with and alleviating depression) which they feel I might be interested in, or just want to say hello, you can always copy them to me at jd-dm@rocketmail.com.
It's a sunny day, but somewhat chilly day, & I'm off for my first coffee, to read a paper or two and have some adventures...
> Of course it's related to being off ADs. DJ, I'm sorry to see you go too because I feel you have a lot to offer. You say you feel better, but I can't imagine that you would feel better having such powerful reactions to interpersonal conflict. Isn't that overwhelming for you? (Feel free to write to me if you'd like. Currently shapere@aol.com, should remain so for at least another month.)
>
Posted by dj on January 30, 2000, at 15:45:16
In reply to Re: irritability - my last post for awhile....long, posted by dj on January 30, 2000, at 13:13:47
Following should have read: My father, who had seven priests (...) present & officiating at his funeral (including my uncle, whom I am named after and who is a former missionary, but one who is very relaxed in his approach and leads by example, more than preaching)
>
> My father, who had 7 priests (2 or 3 who were the former heads of a Catholic University on which he served on the Board of Governors for years, as well as many community boards and being one of two Canadian reps. on the international board of the Knights of Columbus, and an honourary Knight of Malta, etc.) talked her out >of it.Many other current & past factors and general temperment contribute to my occasional shortness & aggressiveness which is balanced out with apathy when severely depressed, (and compassion at both times, though sometimes strained, in the manner of St. Paul, & others) which I am moving away from as I focus on, develop and channel my passions for truth, justice, etc...!
That's all for a while folks. Cheerio, it's been a slice...; )
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