![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 126. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Carol on November 1, 1999, at 15:11:14
This is WAY off topic, but any interesting thoughts on spirituality and why we are stuck bearing the cross of mental illness? Maybe it's a "Job" thing and we're all being tested?(If so, I think I'm failing). I'm sorry if this thread seems frivolous, just thought it might open the door to some therapeutic ideas. I know that the info about Meds. is the most helpful, but I also think that learning about each others spirituality(and I'm NOT talking about organized religion)or conversley, what sort of crisis' of faith people like us are having, could give some of us brain food to augment our medicines or therapy.
Anyway, sorry if this offends anyone. Just fishing, I guess...hard to do in rough water, but the catches can be worth it! Carol
Posted by JohnL on November 1, 1999, at 17:37:09
In reply to Philosophy 101 or God & depression ect..., posted by Carol on November 1, 1999, at 15:11:14
Hi Carol. Interesting topic. Can I join in?
There are probably 101 ways to approach this one. But here's a little bit of how I feel about it.
I think in some ways we are being tested like Job, kind of. Not really tested, but God definitely wants us to call on Him. It may or may not be His will for us to be cured, but He wants us to have the faith and the persistence to call on Him for strength and trust. He can get us over the humps when nothing else can. That's what I think. He gave us doctors and medicines for our use. But without faith they are hollow.
Also, you know the saying "God works in mysterious ways." I believe there is a purpose and a reason for our troubles. We usually don't know why until we have the benefit of hind sight years later. Maybe it's just so we turn to Him. Maybe it's to direct our paths in a certain direction that ultimately turns out good. Maybe it's for the insight needed to help others who are also in trouble. Maybe it's to have the perspective to "see" more than the average person. I don't know. Could go on and on. But I believe the ultimate purpose is loaded with enough goodness to more than make up for all the badness. Basically I do believe there is a silver lining. We just don't know yet what it is. But God wants us to have the faith to know there is indeed a silver lining as long as He's involved. Am I just rambling? Or am I making any sense?
Posted by Carol on November 1, 1999, at 19:00:06
In reply to Re: Philosophy 101 or God & depression ect..., posted by JohnL on November 1, 1999, at 17:37:09
JohnL,
You make sense to me, I usually feel the same way. Gets difficult in the *really* bad times, though. It's ironic to me that as much as I may holler and scream and "why me?" at God, and as many times as I have felt totally abandoned by She/He, I always regain my faith. Maybe because I have had actual experience with answered prayers(not necessarily the answers I wanted, but definitly answers from 'whoever' God is). I've also had times when my depression had me so mentally paralyzed that I couldn't make important decisions(or unimportant ones),so I developed a way of praying, "okay, God, If I am supposed to do "A" then let "this" happen as a sign, and if I am supposed to do "B" then let "that" happen as a sign.". Yes, it may sound nutty(Hey, I never claimed to be sane!), but oddly enough, I don't think I've ever felt that I had made the wrong decision after letting such a sign guide me.
So, whether you say, God or Higher Power, or whatever, I do think that there is some purpose at work in this life.
Carol.
Posted by el on November 6, 1999, at 20:07:34
In reply to Re: Philosophy 101 or God & depression ect..., posted by Carol on November 1, 1999, at 19:00:06
Carol;
I have a friend who deals with his bipolar via
the Shamanistic path.I find my pagan/goddess faith helps me deal with
my life, not just my depression.Is depression connected to our purpose in life or our
spirituality? I dunno. My depression
feels overwhelming at times, but IT is not the purpose
of my life. It may affect how I worship...and my
worship may cut through it like a knife at times...
but they're both...aspects of my life. *laugh*
Like an arm and a leg; part of my life but not
the entirety.el, feeling clear as mud
Posted by Bob on November 6, 1999, at 21:46:30
In reply to Re: Philosophy 101 or God & depression ect..., posted by el on November 6, 1999, at 20:07:34
Don't mean at all to tweak the beliefs of those who take a more traditional interpretation of Christian scriptures at all, so please don't take what follows this way, but here's my two cents:
So, if God created us in God's own image, what would that be? Caucasian males with lots of facial hair? I don't think so. The essence of God is creation, the ability to create, and love for that creation. I find the old and new testaments largely to be a catalog of God's mistakes largely revolving around God loving God's creation too much. The "Original Sin" was God's--tossing humanity out of paradise because God created us to be creators ourselves and all that entails ... curiousity, risk, going beyond the "rules". God then spends thousands of our years trying to beat us into submission, following what God thinks is best for us through God's love for us. God gets so caught up in this that God finally kills "his son" to prove a point to us. The lesson we learn is that its okay to kill in God's name. God finds that God's efforts have led towards destruction and not creation. God finally catches on -- to learn from your creations, you must let go of control of those creations and let them be what they can make of themselves.
So, for me, the Age of Miracles is over [thank God, figuratively and literally]. We're on our own. Which makes faith all the more important. If we receive any signs, it won't be through any science of creation. External proofs are the antithesis of faith. Any signs from God can only come from that part of God that exists within each of us.
Evolution may be the most brilliant aspect of God's creation, because its random introduction of variation into creation is what allows creation to become *more* than what God intended. My "disorder" may be a result of that process, but it is only a disorder in relation to what is culturally defined as order. Perhaps my other-order would be less traumatic if it didn't place me at odds with complacency so much. Take the "idiot-savant" for example -- damned and praised in the same cultural tag. This example of the extreme may play itself out to some other extent in all of us. I've said it before, I'll say it again. Whatever is responsible for our "dis"orders is also responsible for gifts. That our culture of complacency cannot often recognize these gifts is a sin identical to God taken the life of Jesus as an example. That we get convinced by our culture that we have no gifts to offer makes our collective sin all the worse.
Bob
Posted by Noa on November 7, 1999, at 9:42:05
In reply to Re: Philosophy 101 or God & depression etc..., posted by Bob on November 6, 1999, at 21:46:30
I dunno, Bob. I have a hard time conjuring up an image of me and my disorder in a good person-environment fit where my disorder is somehow a good thing. That is not to say that my depression isn't adaptive. It is very adaptive. It shuts down my aggression and anger and activity level and makes me withdraw from my environment. That is an adaptation, but I have a hard time seeing it as one that would be of much benefit other than a passing encounter with a foe that is out of my league (picture either small woman vs. giant beast, or small child vs. hypercritical rejecting mother).
Posted by Carol on November 7, 1999, at 12:40:56
In reply to Re: Philosophy 101 or God & depression etc..., posted by Noa on November 7, 1999, at 9:42:05
Bob, I think I have to agree with Noa that there seems to be no evolutionary reason for depression. I think it is just something we are born into, depending on our circumstances of birth. In a way, we are handi-capped. Certainly, I have had moments of anguished, "why me" fits. Just the way that, I would imagine, someone who was born with no legs or other disability might feel about the way they came into this world. So, if there is a *reason*, I think it would probably have to be some form of spiritual-I don't know, not a test exactly. But maybe, something that our "soul" is supposed to learn from. And all the "why me's" in the world will not change the way things *are*. My thinking(on 'good' days), is that there is no point wasteing time questioning God's purpose(or whether there is a purpose), all we can do is deal with how we *are*. And, *faith* is not about believing that God is going to step in with a miracle and fix everything.
Faith, is about:
1. Accepting(okay, I said this before)the fact that our only real gift from God, is the *power* to *choose* how we will behave whatever the circumstance.
2. Believing that God will love us no matter what *choices* we make. And...
3. Remembering that just because life is NOT fair,
God can still exist, maybe that's the point.
I read somewhere--it's easy for people who have "everything" to believe in God, how much more must she/he cherish those who have "nothing" and *believe* in him/her *anyway*.
Feel free to tell me to "shut up! and go to ....", I've told myself the same thing numerous times. Because, of course the above(Pollyanna-ism) is absolutely no comfort when you are so far down in the well of depression, that you don't even believe there's a sun up there.
But, at times when I am striving once again to climb up those slippery walls, these thoughts give me a boost of the courage needed to keep going. Sorry, this is so long! Carol
Posted by Bob on November 7, 1999, at 14:40:06
In reply to God & depression etc...(Fascinating discussion!), posted by Carol on November 7, 1999, at 12:40:56
Hmmm ... if I said explicitly that our disorders were gifts, then yeah, diagree with that (I wrote that a little late at night for me). What I meant was something along the "two sides of the same coin" argument. A shifting of mental resources out of pot A and into pot B. Of course, there are exceptions -- extrememly low IQ folk who survive only through assisted living or high IQ folk who don't have some Achillies Heel.
As for evolution, it doesn't seem to have a plan for anything. Arguments for things like punctuated equilibrium aside, variation at the individual level is random enough to be purposeless. It's the law of the jungle that settles what is "purposeful" or not. Since our intelligence has lead us to a state where our society interupts the natural process and saves those who would be lost early on from the gene pool, it stands to reason that those individuals with maladaptive mutations who are fostered and protected by society may also have a range of other "mutations" that range from highly maladaptive to highly adaptive and ecologically advantageous. Perhaps some of those second mutations are possible only because of the first, maladaptive mutation.
Of course, this all brings up the shade of a rather ugly word (eugenics) and the consideration that if being made in the image of the Creator means our primary gift from God is the ability to create, what limits (if any) should be placed on our ability to create?
Hmmm...
Bob
Posted by Adam on November 10, 1999, at 22:30:02
In reply to Re: God & depression etc...(Fascinating discussion!), posted by Bob on November 7, 1999, at 14:40:06
The concept of God is now so far removed from my psyche that it
seems to have lost its meaning.I do remember times praying, long ago.
I always thought Pascal's wager (the idea that it was in fact rational
to believe in God because the stakes were so high-to be pious and wrong
is to have lost a finite span of amoral licenteousness, to be athiest
and wrong is to face eternal damnation) could be turned on its ear as
an argument against faith: to reward a life's span with eternal bliss
or affliction is unjust in either case because to reward or punish any
finite thing with an infinite thing is to make something out of nothing.
It occurred to me that even if there was a God, there could be no heaven
or hell, no afterlife really, and no reason to pray.There is reason to live, though, because life, bad or good, is all I
had. It seems incredibly hard to fathom, the idea of being a sentient
creature that some day will no longer be, that when the body dies I die
and that no memory of vestige of the self will remain. It is impossible
for me to imagine a state of being nothing at all, and this inspires
more awe and fear and wonder in me than any concept of an afterlife ever
could.
Posted by Phil on November 11, 1999, at 7:28:40
In reply to Depression, Evolution..., posted by Adam on November 10, 1999, at 22:30:02
> Reminds me of the story I heard about W. C. Fields. An agnostic at best, a friend noticed him reading the Bible as death was approaching.
When the friend asked why, WC's response..."Looking for loopholes".Phil
Posted by Bob on November 11, 1999, at 18:52:51
In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by Phil on November 11, 1999, at 7:28:40
This being Cosmic Day (11/11), I'd like to remind you all of the four Cosmic Keys to Life. Comprehend these fully, and then you'll be ready for the Next Level:
All Corn is Physical.
All Pizza is Tropical.
All Fish are Numerical.
All Dick is Proverbial.Amazing what wisdom can come out of 20 or so college sophomores on too much beer, weed, and shrooms for far too long. (No, not me ... I had to stay sober so someone could write down their ramblings and preserve them for posterity.)
Adam's post about a God without any of the accessories makes me wonder ... perhaps we're just some sort of biomechanical recording device. He collects us up, downloads the data, then into the shredder and off to the recycling plant ....
Happy Cosmic Day
Bob
Posted by Adam on November 11, 1999, at 20:50:40
In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by Bob on November 11, 1999, at 18:52:51
Oh, Bob, it's just a point of view, and relevant to the thread. I am no longer a college sophomore (unfortunately) nor a graduated one
in most respects. It's meant say I think there's hope for atheists, and that atheists think about God. If you find such a point debatable,
debate it. I'm not hurt, but I don't think insults are constructive or in the spirit of this site. If you feel what I have posted is meant
as an affront, call me on it in those terms, and I'll try to do better. If you don't like my style or the things I try to share, don't read them.
I undertand I can take strong viewpoints, and that I'm not always right. I actually like being told I am wrong by knowledgeable people because
I learn something whether I am or not. I've learned nothing from this post, and hence it will make no impression on me, or change my views
or manner in the slightest. It's a waste.> This being Cosmic Day (11/11), I'd like to remind you all of the four Cosmic Keys to Life. Comprehend these fully, and then you'll be ready for the Next Level:
>
> All Corn is Physical.
> All Pizza is Tropical.
> All Fish are Numerical.
> All Dick is Proverbial.
>
> Amazing what wisdom can come out of 20 or so college sophomores on too much beer, weed, and shrooms for far too long. (No, not me ... I had to stay sober so someone could write down their ramblings and preserve them for posterity.)
>
> Adam's post about a God without any of the accessories makes me wonder ... perhaps we're just some sort of biomechanical recording device. He collects us up, downloads the data, then into the shredder and off to the recycling plant ....
>
> Happy Cosmic Day
> Bob
Posted by Bob on November 11, 1999, at 23:21:33
In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by Adam on November 11, 1999, at 20:50:40
Adam, could you please just relax! This is the third time in a little over a week you've reacted this way to one of my posts. I'm not out to flame you every time you write something ... I don't object to what you've been writing, and I truly do have better things to do than pick on people at random from this board. I'm sorry for whatever I'm saying that makes you keep reacting this way -- so if you have some problem with what I've been posting, just email me ... if I objected to the mail, I wouldn't post my address.
With the black and white nature of etext and its complete lack of inflection or any other non-verbal cuing, plus the fact that this mode of communication is asynchronous and that can screw any sense of context as well, it's really easy to misconstrue the connotation of people's posts. So try not to assume the worst from the start ... it's often the opposite of what the author intends.
Sorry folks,
Bob
Posted by Centrist Christian on November 12, 1999, at 3:24:06
In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by Bob on November 11, 1999, at 23:21:33
> Adam, could you please just relax! This is the third time in a little over a week you've reacted this way to one of my posts. I'm not out to flame you every time you write something ... I don't object to what you've been writing, and I truly do have better things to do than pick on people at random from this board. I'm sorry for whatever I'm saying that makes you keep reacting this way -- so if you have some problem with what I've been posting, just email me ... if I objected to the mail, I wouldn't post my address.
>
> With the black and white nature of etext and its complete lack of inflection or any other non-verbal cuing, plus the fact that this mode of communication is asynchronous and that can screw any sense of context as well, it's really easy to misconstrue the connotation of people's posts. So try not to assume the worst from the start ... it's often the opposite of what the author intends.
>
> Sorry folks,
> Bob
I'm not sure I know how this chat works. I don't think God made any mistakes. In Genesis he gave "man" free-will. "Man" choose to rebel and got kicked out of the "Garden". I have had long bouts of depression in the past. I wonder whats at the root of it? Does your depression revolve around any particular issue? For me it did. I had to resolve this issue the best I could over a long period of time, and it is still with me to an extent. I think depression involves a certain amount of narcissism, or inflated ego, or unhealthy self-importance. I messed with fringe spirituality and cannot recommend it. I think it is self destructive in the end. Christianity for me gave mechanisms for and helped to make sense of experiences that scientific rationalism doesn't. One man's id impulse is another man's demon. The labeling doesn't change the nature of the beast. I can't say for sure that anyone else's depression had the same root cause as mine, no one can really know the experience of another, but if it revolves around
one central issue, come to terms with it the best you can, and move on. Grieving over spilled milk will not fill the cup back up.
Posted by Elizabeth on November 12, 1999, at 13:39:41
In reply to Depression, Evolution..., posted by Adam on November 10, 1999, at 22:30:02
Adam,
I didn't get from Bob's post that he was angry at you. I think it was intended to be humour. (I certainly laughed at both Bob's and Phil's posts. Thanks, guys.)
From a "serious" POV, this is an interesting topic, too.
> I always thought Pascal's wager (the idea that it was in fact rational
> to believe in God because the stakes were so high-to be pious and wrong
> is to have lost a finite span of amoral licenteousness, to be athiest
> and wrong is to face eternal damnation) could be turned on its ear as
> an argument against faith: to reward a life's span with eternal bliss
> or affliction is unjust in either case because to reward or punish any
> finite thing with an infinite thing is to make something out of nothing.I think the flaw (well, a flaw) in Pascal's wager is that it assumes that faith is something you can just switch on or off. I honestly don't think I could believe in the supernatural even if I wanted to.
> It occurred to me that even if there was a God, there could be no heaven
> or hell, no afterlife really, and no reason to pray.
>
> There is reason to live, though, because life, bad or good, is all I
> had.I have some number of years to be alive and conscious, and for me that is enough. To tell the truth, eternal bliss sounds like it could be a bit dull. (How does the saying go - "heaven for the climate, hell for the company?")
Also - I had a discussion with my roommate about this recently - I'm not afraid of death. I think this might be the one thing that depression has given me: I have thought of death (obsessively, almost) so much that the idea just doesn't scare me anymore. (I think this is a home-grown variation of what they call "systematic desensitization," yes?)
> It is impossible
> for me to imagine a state of being nothing at all, and this inspires
> more awe and fear and wonder in me than any concept of an afterlife ever
> could.Why do you need to be able to imagine it?
Posted by CarolAnn(The nut formerly known as Carol) on November 12, 1999, at 14:01:14
In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by Carol on November 12, 1999, at 12:49:05
I hit the wrong button,duh.
Anyway, I just wrote a big response to Adam, but my computer ate it. I can't face a rewrite just now, but briefly -
>Real faith involves seperating "God" from "religion".
>I've had many crisis' of faith and come to my own belief system:
-We were created by a Higher Being(called God, for want of a better name).
But, I do not take the bible literally, so maybe it's the evolution thing or something undiscovered(many scientists also believe in a "Creator" because of the incredible odds that life could be a cosmic accident).
-The ultimate "commandment" is Be *good* to others as you would want them to be *good* to you.-Religious persecution is the ultimate sin(Evil done in the name of GOD)
-There's no proof that prayers are answered, but also no proof that they aren't(depends on the answer).
-People who are truly *good*(and those who try hard to be *good*) will have a nice after-life no matter what they "believe".
There's more, but I've bored you enough!
On a personal note-I'm going to sign "CarolAnn" from now on, because I saw a post(I didn't write) signed "Carol". Ta Ta!
Posted by Noa on November 12, 1999, at 16:55:38
In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution...Sorry about above, posted by CarolAnn(The nut formerly known as Carol) on November 12, 1999, at 14:01:14
I am staying out of the religion discussion, tho I find it interesting to read different people's perspectives. I wanted to throw in a random association I had when reading Elizabeth's (I think it was Elizabeth's, forgive me if I am mistaken) post, the part about finding eternal bliss boring. I was reminded of something I heard once , attributed to an anthropologist, that humans are "problem solving animals" and we need problems to solve to keep us happy. When we don't have any problems to solve, we create them. How bored we would be if we could not exercise this part of ourselves.
Posted by Bob on November 12, 1999, at 20:22:09
In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by Elizabeth on November 12, 1999, at 13:39:41
> (I certainly laughed at both Bob's and Phil's posts. Thanks, guys.)
( ;^)
> From a "serious" POV, this is an interesting topic, too.
I agree -- Adam does raise some interesting points (now that I'm ready to be a bit more serious now that the celebrations at 11:11 on 11/11 are over)
First, an atheist by definition does not believe in a supreme being. None of the self-respecting atheists that I know would believe in such a being even if that being was indifferent to us. On the other hand, a number of them tend towards some more Gaiaist or group consciousness sorts of spirituality ... so I'd agree that atheism does not rule out spirituality, but rather the notion of some sort of paternalistic to autocratic locus of such power.
> I have some number of years to be alive and conscious, and for me that is enough. To tell the truth, eternal bliss sounds like it could be a bit dull. (How does the saying go - "heaven for the climate, hell for the company?")
I'm no bible scholar or traditional hermeneut, but I do recall reading something a dozen years ago or so that traced the development of the concept of heaven and hell in late judaic/early christian thought. Then there's all them sociological studies about the demonization of pagan gods by conquering monotheists. Some true bible scholar out there may be able to correct me, but as I understand it from some early-morning midwest cable baptist evangelist, the concept of heaven and hell as it is commonly perceived really isn't in the bible anyway ... it's more like we're just dead until the Second Coming, and THEN we find out who stays in bliss and who gets confined to absolute obliteration.
As for eternal bliss, a nice contrast is Coleridge's opium-inspired Kublai Khan against Rush's Xanadu.
But if humans are, by the essence of their nature, problem solvers, eternal bliss would be the perfect problem. The ultimate conundrum. Either that, or whatever it is that makes bliss eternal would have to strip us of our humanity.
CC: as is often said around here, your mileage may vary ... but if your faith has quelled your personal demons and its a faith based on the better teachings of christianity, such as banishing the sin of pride from your life, then I hope we all can get a dose of that cure, whatever name we give it.
All the same, what's so bad about a god that makes mistakes? Seems to me that if god gave us free will but tossed adam and eve for disobeying HIS will, then he either goofed or he intended that to happen from the start. He created temptation, he was the cause of the original sin. If "free will" means being able to face temptation and abstain, then god himself doesn't have any free will -- he was tempted with the thought of testing his creation and he failed by doing so. Free will is a sham from the start, if you're betting on some omnipotent, omniscient god.
I'm biased, since I've spent so much time being trained as a teacher and a scientist. I don't pray to god; I listen for god's voice from inside. I've said elsewhere that the god I have blind faith in is essentially one of love and creativity, and you can add learning to that as well. Those, I believe, are humanity's greatest virtues, and as such reflect what exists of god in us. So what's so bad about a god who makes mistakes? To err may be just as divine as to learn from those errors and/or to forgive those who have erred.
Which, to wind up this windy response, leads me back to CarolAnn. My idea of hell? Perfect understanding of all the good and ill you have caused in your life, extending to all the lives your acts have touched. God doesn't damn us--we damn ourselves. I just don't believe that my god could allow us to feel what hell may exist in that knowledge ... maybe long enough to learn our last lessons, but not so long to tax god's love and forgiveness for everyone.
My two cents,
Bob
Posted by Adam on November 13, 1999, at 0:05:22
In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by Elizabeth on November 12, 1999, at 13:39:41
>
> I think the flaw (well, a flaw) in Pascal's wager is that it assumes that faith is something you can just switch on or off. I honestly don't think I could believe in the supernatural even if I wanted to.
>
This is, in essence, the primary critique against P.'s wager, but I do not think that he would have put it that way. Rather,
faith is something that can be aquired through religious practice, even if does not at first posess faith. This is not so
farfetched, but there are no guarantees, to be sure.My critique has probably been thought of before, but I've often wondered why it never occurred to Pascal, who obviously wanted
to use a "mathematical" concept (go for infinity over finite value n as the safest bet) without figuring out that n over infinity
is the way God must have to weigh these things on His scales of justice, rendering any such reward or punishment arbitrary. This
should have been very disturbing. The Judeo/Christian concept of justice gives God the latitude, it would seem, to be a total
hardass, but to evoke an arbitrary God is anathema.
>
> Also - I had a discussion with my roommate about this recently - I'm not afraid of death. I think this might be the one thing that depression has given me: I have thought of death (obsessively, almost) so much that the idea just doesn't scare me anymore. (I think this is a home-grown variation of what they call "systematic desensitization," yes?)Interesting. I have thought myself that I didn't fear death until it came to the sticking point, so to speak. Then I felt about as
afraid as I ever have. Instinct strikes again, I guess. In some ways, I think I actually envy your sangfroid, but if I posessed it,
I would not be here.
> > It is impossible
> > for me to imagine a state of being nothing at all, and this inspires
> > more awe and fear and wonder in me than any concept of an afterlife ever
> > could.
>
> Why do you need to be able to imagine it?I don't, but I found deep contemplation of the concept at the point where I
was preparing to take the next step strangely life-affirming instead of nihilistic.
I can't explain why, and can think of no good reason, but there it is.
Posted by CC on November 13, 1999, at 0:50:55
In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by Bob on November 12, 1999, at 20:22:09
> > (I certainly laughed at both Bob's and Phil's posts. Thanks, guys.)
>
> ( ;^)
>
> > From a "serious" POV, this is an interesting topic, too.
>
> I agree -- Adam does raise some interesting points (now that I'm ready to be a bit more serious now that the celebrations at 11:11 on 11/11 are over)
>
> First, an atheist by definition does not believe in a supreme being. None of the self-respecting atheists that I know would believe in such a being even if that being was indifferent to us. On the other hand, a number of them tend towards some more Gaiaist or group consciousness sorts of spirituality ... so I'd agree that atheism does not rule out spirituality, but rather the notion of some sort of paternalistic to autocratic locus of such power.
>
> > I have some number of years to be alive and conscious, and for me that is enough. To tell the truth, eternal bliss sounds like it could be a bit dull. (How does the saying go - "heaven for the climate, hell for the company?")
>
> I'm no bible scholar or traditional hermeneut, but I do recall reading something a dozen years ago or so that traced the development of the concept of heaven and hell in late judaic/early christian thought. Then there's all them sociological studies about the demonization of pagan gods by conquering monotheists. Some true bible scholar out there may be able to correct me, but as I understand it from some early-morning midwest cable baptist evangelist, the concept of heaven and hell as it is commonly perceived really isn't in the bible anyway ... it's more like we're just dead until the Second Coming, and THEN we find out who stays in bliss and who gets confined to absolute obliteration.
>
> As for eternal bliss, a nice contrast is Coleridge's opium-inspired Kublai Khan against Rush's Xanadu.
>
> But if humans are, by the essence of their nature, problem solvers, eternal bliss would be the perfect problem. The ultimate conundrum. Either that, or whatever it is that makes bliss eternal would have to strip us of our humanity.
>
> CC: as is often said around here, your mileage may vary ... but if your faith has quelled your personal demons and its a faith based on the better teachings of christianity, such as banishing the sin of pride from your life, then I hope we all can get a dose of that cure, whatever name we give it.
>
> All the same, what's so bad about a god that makes mistakes? Seems to me that if god gave us free will but tossed adam and eve for disobeying HIS will, then he either goofed or he intended that to happen from the start. He created temptation, he was the cause of the original sin. If "free will" means being able to face temptation and abstain, then god himself doesn't have any free will -- he was tempted with the thought of testing his creation and he failed by doing so. Free will is a sham from the start, if you're betting on some omnipotent, omniscient god.
>
> I'm biased, since I've spent so much time being trained as a teacher and a scientist. I don't pray to god; I listen for god's voice from inside. I've said elsewhere that the god I have blind faith in is essentially one of love and creativity, and you can add learning to that as well. Those, I believe, are humanity's greatest virtues, and as such reflect what exists of god in us. So what's so bad about a god who makes mistakes? To err may be just as divine as to learn from those errors and/or to forgive those who have erred.
>
> Which, to wind up this windy response, leads me back to CarolAnn. My idea of hell? Perfect understanding of all the good and ill you have caused in your life, extending to all the lives your acts have touched. God doesn't damn us--we damn ourselves. I just don't believe that my god could allow us to feel what hell may exist in that knowledge ... maybe long enough to learn our last lessons, but not so long to tax god's love and forgiveness for everyone.
>
>
> My two cents,
> BobWell if God created beings that had no free will, they wouldn't be much more than robots, and would have no capacity to love, unless they were made that way, which would be pretty much pointless. Only with free will would the created being be able to choose to love God or otherwise. The common viewpoint of God, based on Christianity, is that "he" is perfect. Given that, I can see how some things like Genesis and the fall of man could raise some questions. But if it is necessary for there to be free will for genuine love to come from your creation, that seems to answer at least part of the question. An easier answer to the question would be, "Because it was necessary.". Of course, all along we are assuming that logic and human reason are infallible, which is probably not the case.
I think that Heaven and Hell are mentioned more than once in the New Testament, and there was "Sheol" in the Old Testament, which is similiar to the concept of the Greek underworld. Although opinions may differ from denomination to denomination, I think that you don't get to Heaven based on your own merits, "Salvation" is a gift that you can either except or reject. The idea that death and nonexistance have any appeal seems idiotic to me now, but I suppose at one time or another it might have seemed to be a viable escape from my problems, those associated with my depressed state. Another thing worth mentioning is that I think to some extent Cults or otherwise oddball religious groups sometimes prey on people who are vulnerable because of their depression or other mental illness.
I suppose alot of people have problems with mainstream Christianity, saying we are all a bunch of hypocrites. Well I have come to the conclusion that we are for the most part all hypocrites and by nature imperfect, and wonder why anyone would expect use to be perfect. As far as eternal bliss getting to be monotonous, there could be worse things, like being stuck in an eternal traffic jam. I'll take my chances with eternal bliss. As far as "man" being by nature a problem solver, isn't this a biological or evolutionary viewpoint? Isn't the stress of work and toil at least part of what causes us to die younger than we would without all these wonderful problems to solve? Do you have faith in man's ability to figure his way out of the myriads of problems that now face us without the help
of a compassionate God? If you do I have some fine real estate in the everglades that would be just right for you.
Posted by Adam on November 13, 1999, at 1:40:59
In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by Bob on November 12, 1999, at 20:22:09
> > (I certainly laughed at both Bob's and Phil's posts. Thanks, guys.)
>
> ( ;^)
>
> > From a "serious" POV, this is an interesting topic, too.
>
I do need to lighten up, I guess. I think part of my problem was an honest misreading of your post. I seem to have
misinterpreted the last line to somehow mean that I was a pedantic spewer of trivia (and that may be still...) whose
musings belonged in the trash. After re-reading I realised that line was about God. So I've got it figured out. I
really am delusional after all, and need desperately to get this god complex treated. In the mean time, I'll stop
projecting my doubts into the responses of others, if I can.>
> I'm no bible scholar or traditional hermeneut, but I do recall reading something a dozen years ago or so that traced the development of the concept of heaven and hell in late judaic/early christian thought. Then there's all them sociological studies about the demonization of pagan gods by conquering monotheists. Some true bible scholar out there may be able to correct me, but as I understand it from some early-morning midwest cable baptist evangelist, the concept of heaven and hell as it is commonly perceived really isn't in the bible anyway ... it's more like we're just dead until the Second Coming, and THEN we find out who stays in bliss and who gets confined to absolute obliteration.
>
Actually, the concept of Heaven and Hell goes way back in Judaism. The oldest form of "hell" may be Sheol, which is more of
a Hades-like place of drear and darkness where our shades would eventually reside until Judgement Day.Some mentions:
Psalm 139, 7-8:
"Whither shall I go from thy Spirit,
Or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
If I ascend to heaven, thou art there
If I make my bed in Sheol, thou art there!"Amos, 9, 2
"Though they dig into Sheol,
from there my hand shall take them:
though they climb up to heaven,
from there I will bring them down."Job 10, 20-22
"Are not the days of my life few?
Let me alone, that I may find a
little comfort
before I go whence I shall not return,
to the land of gloom and deep
darkness
the land of gloom and chaos
where light is as darkness."Isaiah 14, 14-15
"I will ascend above the heights of
the clouds,
I will make myself like the Most
High
But you are brought down to Sheol,
to the depths of the Pit."
Later on came more of a Hell proper, with fires and torment and the like. For a nice transition to the day of Christ, there is a fun
description of hell in the Old Testament Apocrypha:2 Esdras 7
"Then the pit of torment shall appear, and oppisite it shall be the place of rest; and the furnace of hell shall be disclosed, and opposite it
the paradise of delight. Then the Most High will say to the nations that have been raised from the dead, 'Look now, and understand whom you have
denied, who you have not served, whose commandments you have despised! Look on this side and on that; here are delight and rest, and there are
fire and torments!"By the Christian era you have the Gehenna of Rabinical teaching, named for a valley where the Canaanites performed human sacrifices, and later
a place used to burn garbage. Jesus purportedly used this word, translated to "hell" in his sermons in, for instance, the book of Matthew ("...
whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says 'You fool!' shall liable to the hell of fire", 5:22; "And if your
eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life with one eye that with two eyes to be thrown into
the hell of fire.", 18:9)It is true that these firey torments await the dead on Judgement Day, but the idea predates Christianity by quite a lot, is included from its
inception, and is firmly rooted in Judeo/Christian tradition. That Judaism and Christianity afterward was influence by gentile/pagan religions
is a given. But heaven and hell do make it in the Bible in one form or another quite often, and is usually depticted as a firey pit or a lake
of fire or some other really hot place. It's odd that heaven/paradise, other than being a very nice place to be way high up, isn't really fleshed
out at all. Is it, you know, temperate and breezy? More like a nice sauna? Biting into a York Peppermint Patty? I guess hell was more fun to
talk about.
Posted by Adam on November 13, 1999, at 1:44:35
In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution...B., posted by Adam on November 13, 1999, at 1:40:59
Wow. It took me so long to type that up that CC snuck in. Thanks, though, CC!
;)
Posted by Noa on November 13, 1999, at 4:24:49
In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution...B., posted by Adam on November 13, 1999, at 1:44:35
That humans are problem solving animals does not mean to say they are ABLE to solve all problems, just that it is an instinct to try, that we like to engage in problem solving. I don't think there is anything anithetical to a religious poiont of view in this idea.
My impression is that the early Judaic view of the afterlife, heaven style, is that the dead would be brought back to life.
Posted by CarolAnn(Sorry!keep hitting enter instead of shift on November 13, 1999, at 8:46:33
In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution...It, posted by CarolAnn on November 13, 1999, at 8:23:06
I don't know how much of the bible we can take literally. Seems to me that whether it is the Word of God or not, it was all set down by humans. Who are capable of mistakes, misinterpretations, and making changes simply to suit there own ego's.
I think the answer is to read and absorb the bible, or whatever holy book belongs to your faith, and use the knowledge to work out the belief system that feels right to you.
As far as heaven and hell, we'll never know until we pass over. But, I have to agree with Bob that hell is probably some form of realizing your earthly actions in a way that makes your soul accountable. Also, I think it is entirely possible that there is such a thing as reincarnation. My fear has always been that if I killed myself, the "powers that be" will just send right back down here to live the same type of life to learn what I was supposed to in the first place(my idea of hell is to have to live this same life over again!)
No real opinions of heaven, but read the book "What Dreams May Come" by Richard Matheson and it made sense to me(not the movie,though). I do think that the after life is not about a boring "eternal bliss", whatever it is, Paradise would have to be each individual's idea of anything that they would be happy with for eternity(could be problems to solve, challenges to meet, Knowledge to gain, ect.).
BTW if you haven't read the book above, it has a very intrigueing take on life after death.
On another note, As far as atheism is concerned, I really think it important that individuals not base their atheistic beliefs on the opinions of other atheists. If atheism is your thing, at least come to that conclusion through your own ideas and experiences. There can be just as much *dogma* in the atheist viewpoint as there is in any other "religion"(belief system).
Bye from CarolAnn
Posted by Adam on November 13, 1999, at 12:59:49
In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution..., posted by Noa on November 13, 1999, at 4:24:49
> That humans are problem solving animals does not mean to say they are ABLE to solve all problems, just that it is an instinct to try, that we like to engage in problem solving. I don't think there is anything anithetical to a religious poiont of view in this idea.
>
> My impression is that the early Judaic view of the afterlife, heaven style, is that the dead would be brought back to life.I think most early Judaic and Christian eschatology saw history culminating in a final battle where the dead would rise, Armageddon
would ensue, the evil would be cast out, and the good would would be readmitted into paradise, with a new Zion at its center, and
indeed, the center of the universe. Sometimes God Himself is there, seated in a new Temple. So, yes, I was exaggerating a bit, but
you see all the way through a concept of a heaven even before the eschaton. Paul clearly beleived that the End was imminent, but a
concept of a "realised eschatology" (which took shape in the Gospel of John in the form of the Paraclete), where an apolalyptic vision
was not essential, won out, as it became clear the "Parousia" was to be far in the future. This left Christians with the old ideas of
heaven and hell (or maybe purgatory) to tie them over, and the Bible provides no information about them. It seems many modern Jews
have dispensed with it all, aren't expecting a new and better David, and are happy to say the reward for being good is at best a good
life, but it is one's duty nonetheless to follow God's commandments.
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